Author Topic: ET believers and miracles  (Read 17061 times)

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Offline Molly

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #225 on: October 20, 2010, 09:00:10 AM »
Quote from: Firstborn
I like how you couple atheist with communist. Most atheists I know are fine people who wouldn't hurt anyone. But it seems you are under the sway of the "us vs. them" tribal state of mind.

well, I'm not being glib about it.  I'm trying to stick to history because history predicts the future more reliably than anything else.



State atheism has been defined as the official "promotion of atheism" by a government, typically by active suppression of religious freedom and practice.[1].

State promotion of atheism as a public norm was first practised during a brief period in Revolutionary France. Only socialist states have done so since. State atheism may include active opposition to religion, and persecution of religious institutions, leaders and believers. The Soviet Union had a long history of state atheism,[2] in which social success largely required individuals to profess atheism and stay away from churches; this attitude was especially militant under Joseph Stalin.[3][4][5] The Soviet Union attempted to suppress religion over wide areas of its influence, including places like central Asia.[6] The Socialist People's Republic of Albania under Enver Hoxha went so far as to officially ban the practice of every religion.[7

By 1970 all 22 nations of central and eastern Europe which were behind the Iron Curtain were de jure atheistic, promoting it, ideologically linked to it and opposed on principle to all religion.[17] Communist regimes elsewhere took similar approaches.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

And, so forth...

But, of course, atheists like to pretend they are pristine of all religion--so seperation of church and state would never apply to them.

Atheists have a fringe just like Christianity does. Both would like to oppress and shut down the other. Both are un-Christ-like.
22 nations of eastern and central europe plus all of communist China is not a fringe.  It's several billion people living under atheistic governments that outlaw, suppress, and murder those of faith.

Practically speaking, I don't want to live there.  Do you?

Offline firstborn888

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #226 on: October 20, 2010, 11:59:46 AM »
Quote from: Firstborn
I like how you couple atheist with communist. Most atheists I know are fine people who wouldn't hurt anyone. But it seems you are under the sway of the "us vs. them" tribal state of mind.

well, I'm not being glib about it.  I'm trying to stick to history because history predicts the future more reliably than anything else.



State atheism has been defined as the official "promotion of atheism" by a government, typically by active suppression of religious freedom and practice.[1].

State promotion of atheism as a public norm was first practised during a brief period in Revolutionary France. Only socialist states have done so since. State atheism may include active opposition to religion, and persecution of religious institutions, leaders and believers. The Soviet Union had a long history of state atheism,[2] in which social success largely required individuals to profess atheism and stay away from churches; this attitude was especially militant under Joseph Stalin.[3][4][5] The Soviet Union attempted to suppress religion over wide areas of its influence, including places like central Asia.[6] The Socialist People's Republic of Albania under Enver Hoxha went so far as to officially ban the practice of every religion.[7

By 1970 all 22 nations of central and eastern Europe which were behind the Iron Curtain were de jure atheistic, promoting it, ideologically linked to it and opposed on principle to all religion.[17] Communist regimes elsewhere took similar approaches.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

And, so forth...

But, of course, atheists like to pretend they are pristine of all religion--so seperation of church and state would never apply to them.

Atheists have a fringe just like Christianity does. Both would like to oppress and shut down the other. Both are un-Christ-like.
22 nations of eastern and central europe plus all of communist China is not a fringe.  It's several billion people living under atheistic governments that outlaw, suppress, and murder those of faith.

Practically speaking, I don't want to live there.  Do you?
Okay - I see you are talking about state mandated atheism/communism, while I was talking about democracy loving atheists in America.

We are in agreement about human freedom. 

This red commie atheist scare hype needs to be put to rest though. No one is proposing a state mandated ban on freedom of religion in America. All I am arguing against is the state backing any religious creed and the American Christian paranoia about atheists in the U.S. 
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 01:25:43 PM by firstborn888 »

Offline Cardinal

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #227 on: October 20, 2010, 03:28:05 PM »
:cloud9: Imaginary persecution complex??? The servant is not greater than his master, and I know many who have gone thru persectutions over their stand of faith, myself included. I have lost much over it over the years. My  :2c: Blessings....
Cardinal - you know I love. So please hear me.

I have heard for over 50 years (yep - since I was 3) about how the Russians were going to invade us, about how the government was going to padlock all the churches and put all the "Christians" in concentration camps.

The real deal is that:
The powers that be have always oppressed certain people groups for various reasons. AISI the true Spirit of Christ is that which fights oppression, fights for the poor, and fights for equity.

If people don't like you or look at you funny because you have ideas that are foreign to them - that does NOT = oppression/persecution. Are you being arrested for your faith? No, you aren't. Are you being killed in the U.S, for being a Christian? No. Therefore - you are NOT being persecuted. 

Yet most fundamentalists claim they are being persecuted - even as the ACLU backs up Fred Phelps in the name of liberty.

See what I mean?  :dontknow:

 :cloud9: I see what you are saying, but you didn't define persecution as being murdered, or arrested. I guess loss of jobs, being black-balled from churches, loss of spouses, rejection of family members, ect., does not count as persecution under that strict definition, but they are a real thorn in the flesh to those of us who have experienced that aspect of the cross, are they not? THAT was my point.......Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline jabcat

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #228 on: October 20, 2010, 06:18:25 PM »
That's exactly what I woke up thinking this morning;  what's the definition of persecution.

persecute - 1. To oppress or harass with ill-treatment, especially because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs.
2. To annoy persistently; bother.

We can be paranoid and exaggerate.  But I personally don't think one has to do so to see a true believer in Yesu will have trials, tribulations, aka, persecutions.  "Take up your cross..."

I ran a little scripture search on persecution;


"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
—Matthew 5:10-12

 
John 15:18-20
"If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. —John 15:18-20 

 
Acts 14:21-22
...encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Romans 8:35-39
As it is written,
"For your sake we are being killed [spiritually] all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."


2 Corinthians 4:8-11
We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; ["EXPERIENCE OF THE CROSS"] always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.—2 Corinthians 4:8-11 
 
   
2 Timothy 3:12
Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,


1 Peter 4:12-14
...If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.


1 Peter 4:16
Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.


Thought;  God said the world hates Him, and would hate true believers who stand for the truth.  So why would a God-hating world want to admit their persecution of Christians?  I think they would tend to minimize it, normalize it, and villify the recipient.  Persecution to death?  Many places in the world.  From www.freerepublic.com - More Christians have been killed for their faith in the 20th century than have been martyred in the total history of Christianity.    In America?    NOT YET.  Pray that God intervenes and heals us individually, and our nation as a whole.

Count it all joy!  Pray for those who persecute you.  Seek first the Kingdom of God! 

God has never lost control.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 07:28:52 PM by jabcat »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #229 on: October 20, 2010, 08:27:38 PM »
I believe you are correct Jab yet the meanings of persecution and tribulation are somewhat different from what todays understandings are. I trully believe that people in any country who have controllers that are full of hate and wickedness do not
need a religion to commit the persecution and atrocities. I dont think it really makes a difference, if these rulers want to
persecute they will. My  :2c:

                                      "God has never lost control."  Amen and Amen!
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #230 on: October 20, 2010, 09:14:28 PM »
Yeah, I believe there's a wide range within the definition.  I think, dislike, disdain, avoidance, harrassment, rejection all fit in the category - and the one the scriptures specifically mention is 'hate'.   

I think of "what fellowship has light with darkness", "you are not of the world", etc.  As I see it, the difference is/should be, it's natural for the world (those not as yet spiritually renewed from above, who reject the things of God and identify with satanic influence) to hate believers on Yesu - but we are to love our enemies, not repay evil with evil, and pray for those who persecute us - thus being salt and light.   :2c:
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 09:18:19 PM by jabcat »

Offline jabcat

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #231 on: October 20, 2010, 10:20:46 PM »
You know, also, I don't personally feel real persecuted.  I think it's probably at least partially because I don't speak up enough for things of the Lord, be more of a witness, etc.   :mblush:

Offline Lefein

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #232 on: October 20, 2010, 10:28:18 PM »
Not everyone suffers the same way Jabcat.  Sometimes, we just don't notice when we are being persecuted.  Silent lambs, and we don't even know if we're supposed to bleat or not  :laughing7: we are that focused on Jesus.   :thumbsup:
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #233 on: October 20, 2010, 10:38:49 PM »
Thats how "we" may "feel" but its been my experience to be silent[especially when "i" want to speak] and bind the "times." I have spoke up years ago and began more heated debates that did good, but when "i" wait and KNOW that it is the Lord, then should I recieve "troubles" I regard that and know it as a blessing.
I really believe that alot of the problems that are happening in America today that christianity calls persecution is just the "christian movement" getting in the face of their opposition and provoking, just to create the heat.
Example, school prayer, Ive always felt  that if I were in a place that didnt approve of me praying, Id just pray like I always pray and nobody would ever be upset. I've always felt that the school prayer movement was like the guy standing there and boastng of may things and the other guy praying in humilty not wanting to make a spectacle. (Cant find the verse)
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline firstborn888

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #234 on: October 20, 2010, 11:09:14 PM »

 :cloud9: I see what you are saying, but you didn't define persecution as being murdered, or arrested. I guess loss of jobs, being black-balled from churches, loss of spouses, rejection of family members, ect., does not count as persecution under that strict definition, but they are a real thorn in the flesh to those of us who have experienced that aspect of the cross, are they not? THAT was my point.......Blessings.....

Then the exact same thing could be said about Wiccans, gays, atheists - whoever. Here in the bible belt those people groups can be really harassed - just for being different.
Yeah, I believe there's a wide range within the definition.  I think, dislike, disdain, avoidance, harrassment, rejection all fit in the category - and the one the scriptures specifically mention is 'hate'.   

I think of "what fellowship has light with darkness", "you are not of the world", etc.  As I see it, the difference is/should be, it's natural for the world (those not as yet spiritually renewed from above, who reject the things of God and identify with satanic influence) to hate believers on Yesu - but we are to love our enemies, not repay evil with evil, and pray for those who persecute us - thus being salt and light.   :2c:
AISI being "persecuted" for righteousness would mean suffering for not going along with other's plans to NOT love one's neighbor as one's self, that is, to be hated for defending the rights of the oppressed and the outcasts and those rejected/neglected by society. Calling out the corrupt powers which profit from the misery of others will get you some real persecution for sure.

What I see though is that many Christians (especially the right wing religious movement I have a problem with), instead of fighting for justice and equity fight for dominance and preference in society and fight against their own perceived persecution.

For example - when people run around saying that God is fixing to come and burn all the unbelievers with torturous fire forever and that all the gays are going straight to hell and Obama (or the Pope) is the anti-Christ etc. - the average person instinctively knows this is hogwash. Then, when the negative reaction occurs those proclaiming this nonsense claim "persecution".

To all: I'm a conservative. I think government is too big and that government based socialism is a really bad idea. So I do appreciate the aspect of the right wing and tea party movements which wants to turn things around fiscally. 

« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 11:14:24 PM by firstborn888 »

Offline firstborn888

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #235 on: October 20, 2010, 11:12:30 PM »
Thats how "we" may "feel" but its been my experience to be silent[especially when "i" want to speak] and bind the "times." I have spoke up years ago and began more heated debates that did good, but when "i" wait and KNOW that it is the Lord, then should I recieve "troubles" I regard that and know it as a blessing.
I really believe that alot of the problems that are happening in America today that christianity calls persecution is just the "christian movement" getting in the face of their opposition and provoking, just to create the heat.
Example, school prayer, Ive always felt  that if I were in a place that didnt approve of me praying, Id just pray like I always pray and nobody would ever be upset. I've always felt that the school prayer movement was like the guy standing there and boastng of may things and the other guy praying in humilty not wanting to make a spectacle. (Cant find the verse)
"When you pray enter into your closet" (ie: be not as the Pharisees who make long public prayers for a show).

Offline Cardinal

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #236 on: October 21, 2010, 12:51:13 AM »
 :cloud9: Which would be praying in the Spirit, the heart/closet. The priesthood of the had a section in the middle for the priests, the name of which lines up with chamber/rib. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Cardinal

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #237 on: October 21, 2010, 01:05:13 AM »

 :cloud9: I see what you are saying, but you didn't define persecution as being murdered, or arrested. I guess loss of jobs, being black-balled from churches, loss of spouses, rejection of family members, ect., does not count as persecution under that strict definition, but they are a real thorn in the flesh to those of us who have experienced that aspect of the cross, are they not? THAT was my point.......Blessings.....

Then the exact same thing could be said about Wiccans, gays, atheists - whoever. Here in the bible belt those people groups can be really harassed - just for being different.

 :cloud9: The difference is, from what I've observed of His ways, one group was persecuted for righteousness, the other for unrighteousness. It's a hard concept to express but God is not at all bothered by what some perceive as "discrimination". Think OT for examples.

He rains on the just and the unjust equally, but the EFFECT of the rain is by design quite different on both, as that rain is as a double edged sword. It makes whole the spirit, but slaughters the flesh. So the more flesh you are walking in as opposed to walking in His Spirit, the more that rain feels like fire. So with this principle, it's obvious that those that are pretty much blinded to His Spirit such as the ones you mentioned above, are in a sense, being discrimated against by divine order.

The difference there is, the motive of the heart. God's motive in that "discrimination" is that His judgments are unto victory. When carnal men dish it out, the motive is impure by it's very nature. My  :2c: Blessings....
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 01:08:15 AM by Cardinal »
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Offline thinktank

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #238 on: October 21, 2010, 02:05:39 AM »
:cloud9: Imaginary persecution complex??? The servant is not greater than his master, and I know many who have gone thru persectutions over their stand of faith, myself included. I have lost much over it over the years. My  :2c: Blessings....
Cardinal - you know I love. So please hear me.

I have heard for over 50 years (yep - since I was 3) about how the Russians were going to invade us, about how the government was going to padlock all the churches and put all the "Christians" in concentration camps.

The real deal is that:
The powers that be have always oppressed certain people groups for various reasons. AISI the true Spirit of Christ is that which fights oppression, fights for the poor, and fights for equity.

If people don't like you or look at you funny because you have ideas that are foreign to them - that does NOT = oppression/persecution. Are you being arrested for your faith? No, you aren't. Are you being killed in the U.S, for being a Christian? No. Therefore - you are NOT being persecuted. 

Yet most fundamentalists claim they are being persecuted - even as the ACLU backs up Fred Phelps in the name of liberty.

See what I mean?  :dontknow:


It's about living righteous. Today in the western world, christians don't get killed because they proclaim Jesus, but today living rightoeusly in a corrupt environment is a major challenge. When there are violent gangsters on the streets, prostitutes, bad language at every turn, laws passed to prevent someone wearing a cross and seductive billboard ads, overtaxation, taxes used to fund evil foundations with temptations everywhere, spirits of violence and filth everywhere this according to the bible vexes the righteous soul and can be defined as persecution.

Numbers 20:15 
How our fathers went down into Egypt, and we have dwelt in Egypt a long time; and the Egyptians vexed us, and our fathers:

Judges 2:18   
And when the Lord raised them up judges, then the Lord was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the Lord because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.

When a christian swims in vomit it's not a pleasant experience and many christians end up being consumed by the constant temptations, thus no longer a soldier of christ they becomes one as the enemy, the pride of some christians think they are invincible because their God is, only to find out the hard way as solomon did, that constantly hanging around with the woman (The world) draw them away from God and his commandments.

2Peter2
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Judges 16:16 
And it came to pass, when she pressed him daily with her words, and urged him, so that his soul was vexed unto death;

Today we live in a democratic legalistic world where words kill, and those snakes who use these words of death then mock their enemies by saying that those words are as nothing.

How true are these scriptures for USA

Ezekiel 22:29   
The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully.

Ezekiel 22:5   
Those that be near, and those that be far from thee, shall mock thee, which art infamous and much vexed.

Psalm 14:4 
Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.

But fear not my people sayeth the lord

Nehemiah 9:27   
Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.



Offline eaglesway

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #239 on: October 21, 2010, 02:12:21 AM »
Wow, some of you guys are so good at handling these quote boxes. I don't kno how you do it! :laughing7:
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Offline Cardinal

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #240 on: October 21, 2010, 04:20:44 AM »
 :cloud9: You just hit the quote button of whosever post you want to quote......if you don't want the whole of it reproduced, just delete out what you don't want. As long as the beginning frame and the end "[/quote]" is at the end of whatever you chose, it will reproduce it.  :thumbsup:
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Offline firstborn888

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #241 on: October 21, 2010, 12:10:52 PM »

 :cloud9: I see what you are saying, but you didn't define persecution as being murdered, or arrested. I guess loss of jobs, being black-balled from churches, loss of spouses, rejection of family members, ect., does not count as persecution under that strict definition, but they are a real thorn in the flesh to those of us who have experienced that aspect of the cross, are they not? THAT was my point.......Blessings.....

Then the exact same thing could be said about Wiccans, gays, atheists - whoever. Here in the bible belt those people groups can be really harassed - just for being different.

 :cloud9: The difference is, from what I've observed of His ways, one group was persecuted for righteousness, the other for unrighteousness. It's a hard concept to express but God is not at all bothered by what some perceive as "discrimination". Think OT for examples.

He rains on the just and the unjust equally, but the EFFECT of the rain is by design quite different on both, as that rain is as a double edged sword. It makes whole the spirit, but slaughters the flesh. So the more flesh you are walking in as opposed to walking in His Spirit, the more that rain feels like fire. So with this principle, it's obvious that those that are pretty much blinded to His Spirit such as the ones you mentioned above, are in a sense, being discrimated against by divine order.

The difference there is, the motive of the heart. God's motive in that "discrimination" is that His judgments are unto victory. When carnal men dish it out, the motive is impure by it's very nature. My  :2c: Blessings....

You're ascribing evil to people simply because they don't belong to your creedal group ("Christianity") instead of ascribing it accurately (by the contents of their hearts). If they are not the ones oppressing the poor, not the ones harming, not the ones abusing others and if they are in fact feeding and clothing and visiting those in need and why would you judge them as deserving of divine persecution?

Notice how Jesus never ever complained about these types of people. Only about the ones who ascribed righteousness to themselves and unrighteousness to others simply because the others didn't belong to their special group. This is the way of the world, the way of hypocrisy.

It seems to me that some have been inside their exclusive bible club for so long that they fail to see reality any longer. They judge righteousness by correct catch phrases, correct theology and by using bible verses to back up everything they think and say. By their own perceived closeness to God and other's distance, seeing their lives as spiritual and others as carnal - even when the practical evidence shows otherwise.

I too was once a persecutor of those outside the bounds of "Christianity".

Offline Cardinal

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #242 on: October 21, 2010, 02:40:42 PM »
 :cloud9: No, I'm not persecuting anyone because they are not of my "creed", I'm applying revealed spiritual principles to what exists "out there". There are principles established that are not subject to our ideas about them, that's just the way it is because He said so. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, so there is no guesswork involved in ascertaining those groups heart motives.

Just because some do what appears to be good works, that does not exempt them from the principle, ie. that they are subject to the rain that burns like fire until every knee has bowed and every tongue confessed that Jesus Christ is Lord (IN them), which is the only abundance of the heart that counts for anything. Good works don't work for anyone in this dispensation, because the HG has been given the works to do THRU us, and His primary function is to change our hearts first and then the rest of humanity. He came to drag us to the cross; some go willingly, others, uh, not so much, LOL.

Even though God is all about UR, that doesn't mean He doesn't use judgment to bring the flesh in line with the Spirit. A man that does not disipline his child HATES his child, and God does not hate his children. "Permissive" love, that seems to be an stumbling block to some that have gained their freedom thru the knowledge of UR, is not God's love. The unconditional love that accompanies the UR message has been used unrighteously to condone and thereby reward unrighteousness, IMO. From my point of view, it's become almost an "I'm ok, you're ok" humanist message.

In my own life, my daughter (who was born after the "flood", LOL) has never known anything but unconditional love from me and she recognizes it as such. But what I've found is, that that alone is insufficient to bring up a child in the way they should go, because though we love them unconditionally, there must be a judgment to the things of flesh, cutting off the tares, else the tare will thrive from the lawlessness and overcome the wheat. This kind of unconditional love without an aspect of judgment to the flesh, is as salt with the savor removed that is good for nothing but to be cast out. Salt is the part of it that SHOULD burn, and also acts as a preservative and a sanctifier. This is why the offerings were given with salt. My  :2c: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline eaglesway

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #243 on: October 21, 2010, 03:48:24 PM »
Altho martyrdom is the clearest and most extreme form of persecution- loss of jobs, property, exclusion by family and ejection from churches are, IMO, absolutely forms of persecution. The idea that there is not persecution in the USA because no one is being murdered by the government (yet) is short sighted. It will not be long now before Christians go to jail for teaching their own children that homosexuality is a dysfunctional lifestyle and not acceptable before God. Soon the government will be intruding into church services in order to prevent believers from offering salvation to the homosexual community, and creating a line of distinction concerning proper conduct.

The wages of sin is death. Whether we declare it or not. But the salt that preserves our offerings is tied up in the declaration, because in it the discernment/judgment of God is revealed. Proclaiming the gospel is not persecution of anyone- but it certainly offends, and it is supposed to. Our Saviour is a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense. Blessed are the ones who are not offended in Him. The prophetic word functions inside the house as fire on the offerings, offending as it exposes and enlightens. Outside the house it offends as it exposes the works of darkness and presents the appeal, "Be saved from this wicked and perverse generation".

If any man will live godly in Christ Jesus he shall suffer persecution.
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Offline firstborn888

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #244 on: October 21, 2010, 04:15:53 PM »
The idea that there is not persecution in the USA because no one is being murdered by the government (yet) is short sighted. It will not be long now before Christians go to jail for teaching their own children that homosexuality is a dysfunctional lifestyle and not acceptable before God. Soon the government will be intruding into church services in order to prevent believers from offering salvation to the homosexual community, and creating a line of distinction concerning proper conduct.
Won't be long, eh? Don't hold your breath :winkgrin:. They've been saying "it won't be long" since my mom was a little girl 7 decades ago.

I'm trying to be frank but kind. This end-time fear mongering/expectation of doom and gloom is a carnal expectation. Even though Paul said almost 2000 years ago "The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light" human nature somehow wants to hold onto the certainty of doom and gloom and evil prevailing. This belief is a misunderstanding of spiritual truths and actually perpetuates the darkness. 

Offline eaglesway

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #245 on: October 21, 2010, 04:24:55 PM »
It is only a carnal expectation to those who have not experienced it.
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Offline firstborn888

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #246 on: October 21, 2010, 04:47:11 PM »
:cloud9: No, I'm not persecuting anyone because they are not of my "creed", I'm applying revealed spiritual principles to what exists "out there". There are principles established that are not subject to our ideas about them, that's just the way it is because He said so. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, so there is no guesswork involved in ascertaining those groups heart motives.

Just because some do what appears to be good works, that does not exempt them from the principle, ie. that they are subject to the rain that burns like fire until every knee has bowed and every tongue confessed that Jesus Christ is Lord (IN them), which is the only abundance of the heart that counts for anything. Good works don't work for anyone in this dispensation, because the HG has been given the works to do THRU us, and His primary function is to change our hearts first and then the rest of humanity. He came to drag us to the cross; some go willingly, others, uh, not so much, LOL.

Even though God is all about UR, that doesn't mean He doesn't use judgment to bring the flesh in line with the Spirit. A man that does not disipline his child HATES his child, and God does not hate his children. "Permissive" love, that seems to be an stumbling block to some that have gained their freedom thru the knowledge of UR, is not God's love. The unconditional love that accompanies the UR message has been used unrighteously to condone and thereby reward unrighteousness, IMO. From my point of view, it's become almost an "I'm ok, you're ok" humanist message.

In my own life, my daughter (who was born after the "flood", LOL) has never known anything but unconditional love from me and she recognizes it as such. But what I've found is, that that alone is insufficient to bring up a child in the way they should go, because though we love them unconditionally, there must be a judgment to the things of flesh, cutting off the tares, else the tare will thrive from the lawlessness and overcome the wheat. This kind of unconditional love without an aspect of judgment to the flesh, is as salt with the savor removed that is good for nothing but to be cast out. Salt is the part of it that SHOULD burn, and also acts as a preservative and a sanctifier. This is why the offerings were given with salt. My  :2c: Blessings....

I don't disagree with much of what you wrote above EXCEPT the notion that only people who believe the bible or call themselves Christians are a part of the burning/cleansing/transformation. It actually has nothing to do with receiving unconditional love either - it ONLY involves empathy - the ability to love another as yourself and put yourself in another's shoes.

Religion separates humanity from God and complicates simple spiritual truths. In religion "human" becomes a dirty word and perpetuates the false sense of guilt and unworthiness already perpetuating the spiritual ignorance/blindness in the masses. In short - it becomes just another brick in the wall and in Christianity - it reduces the name "Jesus" to a magic phrase which you repeat in order to be "okay with God" and if anyone doesn't say the magic word then their love and pain and fire trials and abundance are seen as meaningless.

The reason I'm making a fuss here is because of the many posts proving that many do not see humanity as God sees humanity. Worrying about their own rights instead of fighting for the rights of all humans to live in peace, - for those things you rightfully say "are not subject to our ideas about them".   

As long as we take an "us verses them" tribal mentality we become a part of the problem - not a part of the answer.

And as confident as I may seem in my correctness, this is, as you say, just my  :2c:  worth (I do understand that part!).

I hope I am opening some eyes at least a little to see something new. I learn something from every post I read AND write so really, I'm not trying to tell anyone what to think. If my words don't resonate with you - just chunk 'em!  :laughing7:

 

   

Offline firstborn888

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #247 on: October 21, 2010, 04:50:09 PM »
It is only a carnal expectation to those who have not experienced it.
I'm not sure what you mean by that (exactly). Could you expound a bit?

Offline eaglesway

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #248 on: October 21, 2010, 05:41:31 PM »
End-time fear mongering is such a catch all phrase. I have been a disciple of Christ for 33 years and the trends in this country are really very distinct. It is not my intention to say that by the day after tomoro we will all be hiding in our basements from big brother, or from the devil. I don't believe in "salvation through America".
What I am saying is that persecution of Christians in the US is becoming a reality, and will continue to be more so unless something occurs to change the current trends. Personally, I have no fear of this, it is merely an opportunity for the true gospel to shine. However, I will say that militant homosexuality is a trend identifier, a timing device, if you will - evidence that the salt is no longer preserving, and corruption is eating into the very marrow of a society. I believe that the selective enforcement of speech laws against Christians and in favor of homosexuals and other militant minorities is just one example of a climate change in our country that believers ought to be aware of. These "carnal expectations" as you call them, may just be signs of the times that you are indifferent to, or unaware of.
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Offline Molly

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #249 on: October 21, 2010, 05:50:29 PM »
Quote from: Firstborn
The reason I'm making a fuss here is because of the many posts proving that many do not see humanity as God sees humanity. Worrying about their own rights instead of fighting for the rights of all humans to live in peace, - for those things you rightfully say "are not subject to our ideas about them".   

If a standing army were marching across our borders, would you take this attitude?  Yet, that is what is happening today and it has been happening for decades.  When that event happened 9 years ago, I said over and over again, instead of trashing our Constitution because we are supposedly no longer safe inside our own country, why don't  they just close our borders?  People just stared at me.  It was not something they seemed to be able to process.  But to leave our borders wide open while simultaneously building up a huge internal legal and bureacratic threat to freedom makes no sense unless that is the plan.  Today you can no longer board a plane without facing the prospect of literally undressing in front of strangers, and 'homelandsecurity' represents the biggest expansion to government since the new deal.  This is not the country I grew up in.

  You will know them by their fruits.  They are trashing our Constitution because that is their goal, and they are letting standing armies cross our border, indeed, even inviting them in because that is their goal.  Someone is trying to change the very nature of this country, and they are succeeding.  If no one pushes back, you will not recognize the country you were born into--my guess, within the next 5 to 10 years.

I consider the country I grew up in a gift from God.  My freedom is very precious to me. I thank God I grew up in a Christian country.  But, I have also seen  vast changes in my lifetime. About 15 years ago, they started with the political correctness nonsense and beating the drum on tolerance in preparation for their last big immigration push.  We no longer have the freedom of speech we had 15 years ago because of it.  I've watched Canada and the western nations fall one by one as political correctness started becoming legalized.  "hate speech' legislation is the beginning of the end for freedom of speech.  Christians are being arrested for their faith in Dearborn, MI and English is becoming a second language in some parts of the southwest.  The indigenous population seems to be the only ones practicing tolerance.

Last year, about 700 thousand people became legal citizens.  Hundreds of thousands more poured across our borders illegally.  Whoever is controlling this influx of new people, it isn't me.  Whoever is controlling it could care less what I think about anything.  I know this because they keep marching forward with their plan,  no matter what I or anyone else like me has to say about it.  We are a country of about 300 million people.  What do you think is going to happen the day congress grants amnesty to 50 million people [my guess at the current number] who are not citizens but living within our borders and puts them on a fast track to citizenship?  The nature of this country will virtually change overnight.  And, how it does will not be up to you because not everyone around the world considers freedom the most precious gift that God has given us, and a gift that is not appreciated will be easily taken away.
 
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 05:53:36 PM by Molly »