ET believers and miracles

[Molly]

The problem with a christian country  or rather christian government is that it would not take long for the wolves to come in and spoil the fun. Making various biblical truths as law and thus causing division, this is what happened in the past.

But, what I'm trying to say is that this started as a Christian government and has always been one to the extent that we have been able to preserve it even despite the assault of the recent decades.     We already have a Christian Constitution, based on the Bible, based on the freedom that we have in Christ, with its three branches of government and Bill of Rights.   This, we the people, as it was envisioned by our Founders, is what a Christian country looks like.  And, they started their congressional sessions with prayer and put quotations from the Bible all over their public buildings, which is the bane of atheists to this very day.  Our Founders did that.  Why have people forgotten this?  How brainwashed is everyone?

[firstborn888]

Not only did they not spell it out they made the intent crystal clear by not mentioning Jesus at all. These were people who were sick sick SICK of oppression. Virtually every religious state in the history of mankind has a very bad human rights track record (ie: they were oppressive).

The worst day for Christianity is when it became the official Roman state religion.

They mentioned Jesus constantly in their private writings, but the oppression they were experiencing in the countries they were fleeing was at the hands of state imposed flavor of Christianity--whether it be episcople or catholic.  Let's be very clear about this--they wanted to worship God according to their own Christian beliefs which were at that time Protestant.  This country was a church relocation project for Protestants.

People like to point to Jefferson as some type of example of someone who wasn't a Christian, yet completely ignore that he put together his own Bible as a statement of his beliefs.  It is clear that he loved Jesus and he ended his life as a born again Christian.

More than anything else, these Founders were illustrating that our relationshipwith the Christian God was profoundly personal ,and all of New England was founded by one Protestant church group splitting off from another and moving to a different location.  Because as you know, Protestants read the Bible--and the Bible is a spiritual journey that keeps us moving alongside the living God.

As far as Constantine is concerned, his conversion is nothing short of a miracle, since at the time Christians were being wiped off the face of the earth, and most likely, wouldn't have made it into the next century wihout him.

Agreed on most of this and it remains clear to me that they knew exactly what was being set up (liberty to hold any belief or no belief without being persecuted for it).

As far as Constantine, it is good to have friends in high places but this politicizing of Christianity became a huge problem, did it not?

[Molly]

Not only did they not spell it out they made the intent crystal clear by not mentioning Jesus at all. These were people who were sick sick SICK of oppression. Virtually every religious state in the history of mankind has a very bad human rights track record (ie: they were oppressive).

The worst day for Christianity is when it became the official Roman state religion.

They mentioned Jesus constantly in their private writings, but the oppression they were experiencing in the countries they were fleeing was at the hands of state imposed flavor of Christianity--whether it be episcople or catholic.  Let's be very clear about this--they wanted to worship God according to their own Christian beliefs which were at that time Protestant.  This country was a church relocation project for Protestants.

People like to point to Jefferson as some type of example of someone who wasn't a Christian, yet completely ignore that he put together his own Bible as a statement of his beliefs.  It is clear that he loved Jesus and he ended his life as a born again Christian.

More than anything else, these Founders were illustrating that our relationshipwith the Christian God was profoundly personal ,and all of New England was founded by one Protestant church group splitting off from another and moving to a different location.  Because as you know, Protestants read the Bible--and the Bible is a spiritual journey that keeps us moving alongside the living God.

As far as Constantine is concerned, his conversion is nothing short of a miracle, since at the time Christians were being wiped off the face of the earth, and most likely, wouldn't have made it into the next century wihout him.

Agreed on most of this and it remains clear to me that they knew exactly what was being set up (liberty to hold any belief or no belief without being persecuted for it).

As far as Constantine, it is good to have friends in high places but this politicizing of Christianity became a huge problem, did it not?

In a sense it did to the extent it was used as tyranny by political figures using religion to perpetrate their own power.  But, our Founders did their best to protect us from tyranny--not from the Christian religion, but from tyranny.  The Bible itself is not inherently political with the exception of its emphasis on Liberty through Christ, if you want to call that political.  But, they themselves admitted that what they set up would only work for a moral people of God--all the more reason for us to insist that our Christian principles be passed on to the next generation in our public schools.  There is no good to be served by moving backwards from the Founders position--and to the extent that we have, we have always regretted it.

What you may be forgetting is the Founders left it up to the States and the people--the tenth amendment.

[micah7:9]

From many of the writings of Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin that I have read, I found that christianity is mentioned very little, or Jesus even mentioned.
In fact Jefferson translated the NT and he denys even the virgin birth. I believe you can get his translation on line.
The founders were anti religion for control, but very much believers in Divine Providence, God, The Creator they believed in a Higher Power and Intelligence. They did found this nation on A Creator, higher than mankind. The OT certainly can be seen in much of our early history, especially with words etched in the stone of our Washington builders. And certainly opening sessions of government with prayer. But christianity, they did not want to identify with a named religion, they had left that across the water. I believe christianity with all its myths, and fables is  much of our problem today, christianity, most of the stories of christianity are found in much earlier religions and their writings.

[WhiteWings]

As far as Constantine, it is good to have friends in high places but this politicizing of Christianity became a huge problem, did it not?

It changed changed a small Christian community into a large paganized Christian community.
What's best? A little community with full truth or a large community with paganized truth?

[micah7:9]

As far as Constantine, it is good to have friends in high places but this politicizing of Christianity became a huge problem, did it not?

It changed changed a small Christian community into a large paganized Christian community.
What's best? A little full truth or a lot half truth?

Can we add only the Truth?

[WhiteWings]

Micah, I don't understand your answer/question. I editted my message.

[micah7:9]

Micah, I don't understand your answer/question. I editted my message.

I thought this was you
"It changed changed a small Christian community into a large paganized Christian community.
What's best? A little full truth or a lot half truth?"

And my answer was can we not have the whole truth?

[thinktank]

The problem with a christian country  or rather christian government is that it would not take long for the wolves to come in and spoil the fun. Making various biblical truths as law and thus causing division, this is what happened in the past.

But, what I'm trying to say is that this started as a Christian government and has always been one to the extent that we have been able to preserve it even despite the assault of the recent decades.     We already have a Christian Constitution, based on the Bible, based on the freedom that we have in Christ, with its three branches of government and Bill of Rights.   This, we the people, as it was envisioned by our Founders, is what a Christian country looks like.  And, they started their congressional sessions with prayer and put quotations from the Bible all over their public buildings, which is the bane of atheists to this very day.  Our Founders did that.  Why have people forgotten this?  How brainwashed is everyone?

By Faith, Abraham believed God, by faith Moses opened the read sea, .....

By faith the us constitution was devised, that is the source of its power. However, there is not much power when it is law, to become a Christian or how to worship. For without faith it is impossible to please him, and the problem with a church controlled government is that the laws of the church can be passed onto the country, such as wrong doctrine, and if one does not abide to these commonly held doctrines then they will be punished. Not all have faith....but most people want to live in a free society, where there is freedom of speech, private property, a fair society, no murder, no thieving etc and this is what the constitution is about, the source of its power being faith in a loving, just and wise God, who just happens to be Jesus. I think an aethist would have no problem with the constitution, unless they hate the freedom of hearing people sing hymns all the time.

[reFORMer]

What I see is people who no longer care for liberty.  Under the double-speak word "tolerance" we are being brain washed to not express any thought that offends somebody else.  It's only a matter of time until this becomes institutionalized in the bureauchracy to the the extent outspoken critics of deviant sexual behavior or other government policies, like war efforts are persecuted (doesn't anyone remember the '60's?)  The concern of radical gay organizations for years has unabashedly been to silence the Church.  While I regard their idea of "the Church" to refer to Institutional Christianity, those not aligned with any intstitution will yet bear persecution for openly influencing what the politicos increasingly regard as their country.  With so many millions across the face of the earth being persecuted now and in the last century for bearing the name of Jesus I can't agree it is just a personality peculiarity afflicting a subset of Christian believers contrary to the facts.

[Lefein]

A vast many Christians are killed every day in Africa, the Asian Isles, North Korea, persecuted in Asia mostly, just a few years ago (about 50) Soviet Russia, Cambodia, Laos, the whole communist block martyred Christians as being against the state...The church in China is underground - you can't take Bibles into the country, it is illegal to do so.

The list goes on...There is more to the world than our little extension of Rome (Europe, America, Canada; The Western powers)

[firstborn888]

A vast many Christians are killed every day in Africa, the Asian Isles, North Korea, persecuted in Asia mostly, just a few years ago (about 50) Soviet Russia, Cambodia, Laos, the whole communist block martyred Christians as being against the state...The church in China is underground - you can't take Bibles into the country, it is illegal to do so.

The list goes on...There is more to the world than our little extension of Rome (Europe, America, Canada; The Western powers)

I was specifically referring to the U.S. Christian persecution complex phenomenon. That is - the imaginary persecution which Christians believe they suffer here in the U.S. where I live.

[Lefein]

Persecution in the US is existent, but on a sneakier sort of scale.

The problem is that it is a different sort of persecutive behaviour than is expected; we aren't being burnt at stakes.  But a good deal of the large-scale battles and food fights between Christian groups, and other groups...is mostly self-inflicted.

Homosexuals blame Christians for persecuting them - Stop running around in leather cod pieces, and trying to press homosexual material into the hands of kindergarden children and their parents won't try and shut you up.

Christians blame Atheists for persecuting them by removing prayer and icons from public view - It'd help if you didn't constantly tell them that they are godless immoral people, who are damned to Eternal Hell where their father the devil is going to poke them with a large, angry stick...

But then you have legitimate cases, like getting fired for having an ictus fish on your desk at work.

[firstborn888]

What I see is people who no longer care for liberty.  Under the double-speak word "tolerance" we are being brain washed to not express any thought that offends somebody else.  It's only a matter of time until this becomes institutionalized in the bureauchracy to the the extent outspoken critics of deviant sexual behavior or other government policies, like war efforts are persecuted (soesn't anyone remember the '60's?)  The concern of radical gay organizations for years has unabashedly been to silence the Church.  While I regard their idea of "the Church" to refer to Institutional Christianity, those not aligned with any intstitution will yet bear persecution for openly influencing what the politicos increasingly regard as their country.  With so many millions across the face of the earth being persecuted now and in the last century for bearing the name of Jesus I can't agree it is just a personality peculiarity afflicting a subset of Christian believers contrary to the facts.

It's not about Christianity though - it's about free speech. I absolutely agree that the 1st amendment MUST vigorously be protected. So far with both Fred Phelps and gay marches being protected we seem to be okay at both ends of the spectrum but MUST be always vigilant.

What bugs me is when Christians think they are being attacked by the devil at every turn and claim the government is going to padlock all the churches etc. Utter nonsense. They've been spreading those rumors since the 60's. 

[firstborn888]

Persecution in the US is existent, but on a sneakier sort of scale.

The problem is that it is a different sort of persecutive behaviour than is expected; we aren't being burnt at stakes.  But a good deal of the large-scale battles and food fights between Christian groups, and other groups...is mostly self-inflicted.

Homosexuals blame Christians for persecuting them - Stop running around in leather cod pieces, and trying to press homosexual material into the hands of kindergarden children and their parents won't try and shut you up.

Christians blame Atheists for persecuting them by removing prayer and icons from public view - It'd help if you didn't constantly tell them that they are godless immoral people, who are damned to Eternal Hell where their father the devil is going to poke them with a large, angry stick...

But then you have legitimate cases, like getting fired for having an ictus fish on your desk at work.

If Christians would fight against the persecution of Muslims or gays then that would be Christlike behavior. As it is - they (mainly) look out for their own rights and interests just like every other people group.

[Lefein]

It is because we (Christians in general in the US, most of which are nominal to not thoroughly serious in the Faith) are working under a false premise.

"If you aren't for us, you're against us"

Of course, most Christians aren't Universal Reconciliationists either.  Once that becomes the accepted doctrine of Salvation, the persecutions will be met with a very, very different (and inevitably much more positive) response.

Christian being "attacked" by an unbeliever in the present situtation:

"I'll see you in Hell! You godless sinner! (after getting a wrong order at starbucks)"

Christian being attacked by an unbeliever in the future situtation:

"I'll see you in Heaven eventually, see ya! *gets burnt at the stake*"

[eaglesway]

As I see it, persecution in the West has been as frequently by "Christians" against "Christians". The history of Europe is full of wars of religion conducted by "Christians" against other "Christians". The larger groups of "Christians" in this country will persecute any voices that rise up out of the midst to declare the counsels of the Lord. When Peter says it is time for judgment (separation/exposure/clarification/correction) to begin at the house of God with the elders at Jerusalem- we quail and rail.... "That's not us!" We're so sure of ourselves here in Laodicea. But the real church is often hidden inPhiladelphia , suffering with Him outside the camp. "You will be persecuted by all nations for my namesake".
I think we are so afraid of being rejected, we have forgotten how to be salt and light. IMO the moral majority is only moral until you ask them to redress the inequities in our society.... then they say "God helps those who help themselves".
When Jesus says not one stone will be left standing upon another, we say, "That's not us, we are living stones!" Living stones are the tabernacle of the Spirit. The proof is in the pudding. Where there is life, there God is dwelling in the midst. Where God is dwelling there is a lamp shining light into all the house, exposing all that is hidden in darkness. How many Christians have been burned at the stake of the orthodox opinion? "If the light that is in you is darkness how great is that darkness?"
I think Christians do what Jesus did. He spoke up. He got killed for it. He didnt spend all His time arguing out theological questions,or political ones- He went to the heart of the issue- the issues of the heart. He said, "Many will say unto me on that day, "Lord, Lord"........ They will all tell about how they were good Christians. He will tell them how they missed the point. "Love your enemies, do good to them that curse you and spitefully use you. Father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing."
We are to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect, and so shine like lights in the midst of a wicked and perverse generation. The only nation doing that is the holy nation- that peculiar people. They kno that the Father who sees in secret will reward them openly- they give without letting one hand speak to the other. They give freely expecting no return.
Perhaps we need this darkness to increase so that we will be driven to an overcoming faith.

[Cardinal]

  Imaginary persecution complex??? The servant is not greater than his master, and I know many who have gone thru persectutions over their stand of faith, myself included. I have lost much over it over the years. My  Blessings....

[Molly]

It's not about Christianity though - it's about free speech.

Really.


Name the Muslim or Atheist [Communist], Hindu or Buddhist country that has free speech guaranteed by its Constitution and upheld in the courts...

I suppose you think we can decouple our Constitution from its roots?  Good luck with that.  History says you are wrong.

[Lefein]

Imaginary persecution complex??? The servant is not greater than his master, and I know many who have gone thru persectutions over their stand of faith, myself included. I have lost much over it over the years. My  Blessings....

The Enemy truly is craft as far as the United States is concerned.  Subtle persecution, the sort that isn't easy to counter through laws, and courts, a stake burner would go to prison, but getting caught on fire, being fired from a job, being persecuted in a different way is easy to dismiss from the legal system...

But blessed is our Lord who is so clever!  When we cannot appeal to the laws, and courts of men we go straight for the Throne of the Highest, the supremest of courts, the court of the one who is above all other names Supreme by Being, that great I AM who can over turn nations, and wipe away verdant land into deserts, and make deserts into living fertile grounds, the one saviour of all men, and the father of every nation!  Who chastens his children - for he is a good father indeed!  Every nation is his child, and the Lord shall chasten for their remedy the straying of their ways - Blessed is the name of our mighty God whose judgments are righteous!  And whose wonders are beyond compare!

Mammon the idol of The West will be broken, and the prophets who dance around him will be slain, the poles of Ashera, and the fertility gods of sex, and whoredom will burn in their groves!  O' Blessed are you beautiful God of purity!  You who are an all consuming fire who will burn away the dross of our iniquity with your omnipresent hand!  You who searches the hearts of our congressmen, our politicians, and our economists!  You who will turn evil into good, and make pity into power!  You who by your glory and for your glory shall cleanse the world from its vices, and raise up a godly generation who will worship you in Spirit and in Truth!

Let thy kingdom come o' King of Kings, Let thy kingdom come and never end!  Your reign is deathless, into the ages of the ages, and beyond to the incorruptible width, and breadth, and span that is your infinite grace, strength, and majesty!

In Jesus' name let your kingdom come, and your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven, with obedience from the heart, with obedience out of Love, where strife ceases, and hatred is dead, filled with the love that is Life!  Mighty God, may your will be done, and blessed Father, let the wills of your children align with yours!

May you raise up a genuine generation, an honest host, and a truthful tribe, to be blessed among the nations, who will infect the world with your testimony, and with your triumphant glory!  Immune to the plagues of iniquity, and immune to the pestilence of sinful, and adulterous cultures!

A spiritual Israel, real and made manifest out of the womb of your power, and your giving, sustaining, vivifying Love!

In Jesus' name!  In the name of Ieshua!  Your son and the saviour of every soul ever made who died on a cross for Death itself to die along with Him, never to rise again, left in the tomb where it belongs, as our resurrected Lord did leave it behind, Truth, Love, and Life living once more amongst the Living - to live forever, and forever to stay!

Amen!

[firstborn888]

It is because we (Christians in general in the US, most of which are nominal to not thoroughly serious in the Faith) are working under a false premise.

"If you aren't for us, you're against us"

Of course, most Christians aren't Universal Reconciliationists either.  Once that becomes the accepted doctrine of Salvation, the persecutions will be met with a very, very different (and inevitably much more positive) response.

Christian being "attacked" by an unbeliever in the present situtation:

"I'll see you in Hell! You godless sinner! (after getting a wrong order at starbucks)"

Christian being attacked by an unbeliever in the future situtation:

"I'll see you in Heaven eventually, see ya! *gets burnt at the stake*"

   

[firstborn888]

It's not about Christianity though - it's about free speech.

Really.


Name the Muslim or Atheist [Communist], Hindu or Buddhist country that has free speech guaranteed by its Constitution and upheld in the courts...

I suppose you think we can decouple our Constitution from its roots?  Good luck with that.  History says you are wrong.

I like how you couple atheist with communist. Most atheists I know are fine people who wouldn't hurt anyone. But it seems you are under the sway of the "us vs. them" tribal state of mind.

You still label countries by religion. Countries aren't people. They are systems/regions which have agendas.

You are still out to proclaim "we are superior" which is not a part of the answer - it's a part of the problem. 

But you yourself are obviously out to help in the best way you know how, so please take my (frank) words in the spirit of love in which they are intended. 

[firstborn888]

Imaginary persecution complex??? The servant is not greater than his master, and I know many who have gone thru persectutions over their stand of faith, myself included. I have lost much over it over the years. My  Blessings....

Cardinal - you know I love. So please hear me.

I have heard for over 50 years (yep - since I was 3) about how the Russians were going to invade us, about how the government was going to padlock all the churches and put all the "Christians" in concentration camps.

The real deal is that:
The powers that be have always oppressed certain people groups for various reasons. AISI the true Spirit of Christ is that which fights oppression, fights for the poor, and fights for equity.

If people don't like you or look at you funny because you have ideas that are foreign to them - that does NOT = oppression/persecution. Are you being arrested for your faith? No, you aren't. Are you being killed in the U.S, for being a Christian? No. Therefore - you are NOT being persecuted. 

Yet most fundamentalists claim they are being persecuted - even as the ACLU backs up Fred Phelps in the name of liberty.

See what I mean? 

[Molly]

I like how you couple atheist with communist. Most atheists I know are fine people who wouldn't hurt anyone. But it seems you are under the sway of the "us vs. them" tribal state of mind.

well, I'm not being glib about it.  I'm trying to stick to history because history predicts the future more reliably than anything else.



State atheism has been defined as the official "promotion of atheism" by a government, typically by active suppression of religious freedom and practice.[1].

State promotion of atheism as a public norm was first practised during a brief period in Revolutionary France. Only socialist states have done so since. State atheism may include active opposition to religion, and persecution of religious institutions, leaders and believers. The Soviet Union had a long history of state atheism,[2] in which social success largely required individuals to profess atheism and stay away from churches; this attitude was especially militant under Joseph Stalin.[3][4][5] The Soviet Union attempted to suppress religion over wide areas of its influence, including places like central Asia.[6] The Socialist People's Republic of Albania under Enver Hoxha went so far as to officially ban the practice of every religion.[7

By 1970 all 22 nations of central and eastern Europe which were behind the Iron Curtain were de jure atheistic, promoting it, ideologically linked to it and opposed on principle to all religion.[17] Communist regimes elsewhere took similar approaches.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

And, so forth...

But, of course, atheists like to pretend they are pristine of all religion--so seperation of church and state would never apply to them.

[firstborn888]

I like how you couple atheist with communist. Most atheists I know are fine people who wouldn't hurt anyone. But it seems you are under the sway of the "us vs. them" tribal state of mind.

well, I'm not being glib about it.  I'm trying to stick to history because history predicts the future more reliably than anything else.



State atheism has been defined as the official "promotion of atheism" by a government, typically by active suppression of religious freedom and practice.[1].

State promotion of atheism as a public norm was first practised during a brief period in Revolutionary France. Only socialist states have done so since. State atheism may include active opposition to religion, and persecution of religious institutions, leaders and believers. The Soviet Union had a long history of state atheism,[2] in which social success largely required individuals to profess atheism and stay away from churches; this attitude was especially militant under Joseph Stalin.[3][4][5] The Soviet Union attempted to suppress religion over wide areas of its influence, including places like central Asia.[6] The Socialist People's Republic of Albania under Enver Hoxha went so far as to officially ban the practice of every religion.[7

By 1970 all 22 nations of central and eastern Europe which were behind the Iron Curtain were de jure atheistic, promoting it, ideologically linked to it and opposed on principle to all religion.[17] Communist regimes elsewhere took similar approaches.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism

And, so forth...

But, of course, atheists like to pretend they are pristine of all religion--so seperation of church and state would never apply to them.

Atheists have a fringe just like Christianity does. Both would like to oppress and shut down the other. Both are un-Christ-like.