Author Topic: ET believers and miracles  (Read 17362 times)

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Offline firstborn888

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2010, 08:33:31 AM »
People have vivid imaginations and mass hallucinations.  :thumbsup:

Offline lomarah

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2010, 02:15:11 PM »
Great posts guys. Thanks Eaglesway and Lefein, you explained it very well for me.  :dsunny:
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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2010, 04:00:53 PM »
I have been wondering about something lately. Namely why do ET believers/preachers get miracles if what they are teaching is not completely true? I'm not talking about healings and such, but things like angelic protection when preaching their message. For example, I went to a Bible University and a few of our students went on a missions trip to Haiti where they preached the "good news". All of a sudden their eyes were opened and they saw some huge angels and a bunch of little demons and basically they were seeing a spiritual battle going on while a witch doctor gave his life to Christ.

I also just read a similar story about a preacher preaching the "good news" in a prison with mentally insane inmates and his eyes were opened and he saw a bunch of huge angels protecting him. I just don't understand if their "good news" is not exactly the true good news, why does God protect them and their message? (Mind you I don't know exactly what was said by these preachers, if they mentioned anything about eternal hell or whatnot, but I at least know the students were ET believers.)
I find it interesting that in both cases you refer to there is a high incident of demonic activity- perhaps the demons were doing the miracles :mshock:
This has a parallel in the Book of Acts, where the demonic slave girl is following Paul around and saying "these men are messengers of the true God". In some churches today, this girl would be honored as a prophet, but Paul perceived she had a demon who was saying these things.

Offline Lefein

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2010, 06:34:58 PM »
We should be careful friends not to make the mistake of "other denominations" by attributing the miracles in their gatherings to devils due to their doctrinal differences.

Remember what the Pharisees said to Christ when they attributed his wonders to the work of Beelzebub; "He hath a devil!"

Jesus silenced them; "A house divided against itself cannot stand! Don't blaspheme The Holy Ghost."

There are many mainstream protestant church assemblies that erroneously call tongues (the work of The Holy Spirit) to the devil, just because they are freaked out by it, they forget though that the Charismatic/Pentecostal church is their sister.  Likewise, these same groups often say any Catholic is damned to Hell and unsaved due to doctrinal differences between themselves, and their Catholic mother.

High demonic activity is not a litmus test for attributing miracles (which are done by God's power alone, not the power of any pastor, priest, or pewman; ET, or UR it matters not) to their work.

A house divided against itself cannot stand, and a devil does not heal to the glory of Jesus Christ.  Miracles are the grace of God on the just, and the unjust - on the ETer and the URer, we are both Christians alike only the ETer is like the mainstream groups who denounce tongues, instead denouncing the grace of God to save all men: But The Father hears their prayers too.

We don't have a monopoly on the works of our Father, just because He has miraculously opened our eyes to the truth of His saving power.

A devil cannot do miracles, he can only do false wonders.  Why else does witchcraft cause so much mischief in the life of the crafter?  Because the fire he or she plays with is either an illusion...or else it is a false fire that burns, steals, destroys, maims, and blackens - it never heals, it never edifies.

Miracles are always towards a positive goal in God's storyline.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 06:38:53 PM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2010, 02:41:37 AM »
Always is a VERY big word.


If there arises among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder comes to pass, and then he says unto you, Let us follow other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them; You shall not follow the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
(Deu 13:1-3)

So Moses and Aaron came to Pharaoh, and thus they did just as the LORD had commanded; and Aaron threw his staff down before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent. Then Pharaoh also called for the wise men and the sorcerers, and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret arts. For each one threw down his staff and they turned into serpents. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs.
(Exo 7:10-12)

Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
(2Th 2:8-10)



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Offline thinktank

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2010, 02:56:18 AM »
Lets say a demon gives cancer. Now the same demon takes away that cancer and so it appears to be a miracle of God, but it was the demon who gave the cancer in the first place.

Just one way of how the demon would be seemingly be able to heal people. That's why I think that a true healer of God should heal every person, not just one or two and them instances being partial healings.



Offline Cardinal

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2010, 03:16:17 AM »
 :cloud9: The only true healer of God is Jesus, and there are many reasons why not everyone receives healing in any given situation, and therefore that is not a litmus test for who is and is not a "true healer". My  :2c: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Lefein

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2010, 03:20:10 AM »
Lets also be careful not to attribute too much power, or influence to devils.

We shouldn't have to doubt every good thing - fearing that the healing might be a devil's plot.  It is a slippery slope.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline thinktank

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2010, 03:24:44 AM »
:cloud9: The only true healer of God is Jesus, and there are many reasons why not everyone receives healing in any given situation, and therefore that is not a litmus test for who is and is not a "true healer". My  :2c: Blessings....

Yes you are probably right that it is not a guranteed litmus test, but I based on the apsostles who healed all people. I think that they had something special to be able to heal all people. I mean today there is more emphasize on healing the character of the individual, because many illnesses today are caused by deep rooted bondages and fears and events and healing just the physical would only be a temporary healing, but I wonder, how did they heal deep rooted problems back then, perhaps they had a super special healing gift that not only healed the physical but also the history/spirit of the person. :2c:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2010, 03:30:01 AM »
 :cloud9: I doubt the apostles healed everyone (servant not greater than the master), and Jesus didn't either, because he said that He could do no mighty works in His "hometown" because of their unbelief, ie. a prophet has no honor in his own country. That's because of people only looking at the flesh of the person, including Jesus's, instead of the Spirit. My  :2c: Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline thinktank

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2010, 03:32:15 AM »
Lets also be careful not to attribute too much power, or influence to devils.

We shouldn't have to doubt every good thing - fearing that the healing might be a devil's plot.  It is a slippery slope.

I don't want to cause paranoia, just figuiring out how certain non christians are able to heal people without Jesus.

I'm not sure though that a demon does leave once it enters a house. For Jesus said once the strongman enters it requires a strongerman to bind him and spoil his goods and only Jesus is the strongerman. But I wonder how can people in other religions receive healings, perhaps it is a placebo effect  :dontknow:


Offline Molly

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2010, 03:33:25 AM »
Cardinal, do you think most people are unable to look at the spirit of a person?

That is something that took me a long time to be able to do.

Offline thinktank

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2010, 03:36:38 AM »
:cloud9: I doubt the apostles healed everyone (servant not greater than the master), and Jesus didn't either, because he said that He could do no mighty works in His "hometown" because of their unbelief, ie. a prophet has no honor in his own country. That's because of people only looking at the flesh of the person, including Jesus's, instead of the Spirit. My  :2c: Blessings.....

 :cloud9: In opposition I'd say that Jesus said that greater works we will do because I go unto the father.

Also the word said he could not do great work in caupernaun because of their unbelief, save healed a few people. . You might emphasize the few and denote that this means he did not heal all, but I say how many are sick in a town? only a few? and if the few be sick then it is only a few that be healed.  :2c:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2010, 03:38:08 AM »
 :cloud9: @ Molly....It is hard to see the Spirit of Him in the flesh. How much more so it must have been for those who knew Him as a boy, or as his natural father's son? And so they said, "Is not this the carpenter's son?" Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline thinktank

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2010, 03:43:36 AM »
:cloud9: @ Molly....It is hard to see the Spirit of Him in the flesh. How much more so it must have been for those who knew Him as a boy, or as his natural father's son? And so they said, "Is not this the carpenter's son?" Blessings....

Yeah people do this all the time. They have certain expectations of people and when they are not met either in the posotive or negative, they don't like it.

Who are you to walk around doing miracles, we know this boy he comes from gailee nothing good comes from that place.

Also his townpeople like you said, thought of him as the local carpenter not the miracle man of God.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2010, 03:47:41 AM »
:cloud9: I doubt the apostles healed everyone (servant not greater than the master), and Jesus didn't either, because he said that He could do no mighty works in His "hometown" because of their unbelief, ie. a prophet has no honor in his own country. That's because of people only looking at the flesh of the person, including Jesus's, instead of the Spirit. My  :2c: Blessings.....

 :cloud9: In opposition I'd say that Jesus said that greater works we will do because I go unto the father.

I don't think that's opposition, I don't think it relates because they had a different "job" to do.

Also the word said he could not do great work in caupernaun because of their unbelief, save healed a few people. . You might emphasize the few and denote that this means he did not heal all, but I say how many are sick in a town? only a few? and if the few be sick then it is only a few that be healed.  :2c:

That might be true, but I personally tend to think it was healing He was referring to, because if Father intended for there to be anything happening there of a general nature applicable to all, like turning water to wine, then I think He would have done something like that anyway for HIS purposes. Healing is personal in nature, and faith, or the lack thereof, affects it. My  :2c: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Lefein

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2010, 04:35:14 AM »
Quote
But I wonder how can people in other religions receive healings, perhaps it is a placebo effect

Remember the Truth, and the True Gospel; The same God who saves all men, is the same God who heals all men in his due time, and his due pleasure, for his due glory.

Rain falls on the just, and the unjust alike - so too does the mercy and grace of God.

God even loves the pagans, and will heal them - especially since they do not know who to call upon for the healing they need.  God loves, and pities those who are ignorant of him very much, in the same way that we soften our own hearts when we see someone who is handicapped.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline thinktank

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2010, 05:22:43 AM »
That might be true, but I personally tend to think it was healing He was referring to, because if Father intended for there to be anything happening there of a general nature applicable to all, like turning water to wine, then I think He would have done something like that anyway for HIS purposes. Healing is personal in nature, and faith, or the lack thereof, affects it. My  2c Blessings....
cardinal


That's a good point and I belive it to be true but to me when the verse says he could not do great works, that to me doesn't mean physical healings, but rather the greater work which is to believe that God sent his son in the flesh and thou shalt be saved.
For God healed all, but not all believed in him that he was the messiah their saviour, so to me salvation is the greater work, even though healing is spectacular and I hope and pray that the church will rise up with healing in her wings and be able to heal the sick in the masses.

What is easier to say

Son thy sins be forgiven or to say rise up and walk.

Too God, saying rise up and walk is easy, but to say son thy sins be forgiven takes a massive sacrifice.

blessings to you also cardinal in Jesus name  :bigGrin:


Offline Cardinal

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2010, 09:53:52 AM »
 :cloud9: Hey bro....you noticed, LOL.....did you know that praying, "in Jesus's name" means to pray in His nature? And on that subject  :hijacked:; to God, a name denotes the nature of a person or thing, thus all the names in there mean something relevant to our walk, spiritually speaking.

I think probably the RCC took the life out of that concept and substituted their theology, since it's where so many of the "church's" things have been passed down from. My  :2c: Carry on....Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline firstborn888

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2010, 03:09:59 PM »
People have vivid imaginations and mass hallucinations.  :thumbsup:
Well, since I got no response - to you guys think all these stories are real?

Offline eaglesway

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2010, 04:09:26 PM »
People have vivid imaginations and mass hallucinations.  :thumbsup:
Well, since I got no response - to you guys think all these stories are real?

People have vivid imaginations and mass hallucinations. But even if they were real, there is nothing in them to say they last forever, so they do not "confirm" ET. I think aionian fire is something beyond our faculties of perception, so even in such visions, God may be using representative imagery to show the torment of people in the grips of sin, oppression, murder, abuse, disease, starvation- IN THE NOW. I have misenterpreted visions God gave me for periods of years until the true meaning was revealed to me at the proper time. I prefer the clear testimony of the word of God.


For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
(Col 1:19-20)
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Offline lomarah

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2010, 02:09:08 AM »
People have vivid imaginations and mass hallucinations.  :thumbsup:
Well, since I got no response - to you guys think all these stories are real?

People have vivid imaginations and mass hallucinations. But even if they were real, there is nothing in them to say they last forever, so they do not "confirm" ET. I think aionian fire is something beyond our faculties of perception, so even in such visions, God may be using representative imagery to show the torment of people in the grips of sin, oppression, murder, abuse, disease, starvation- IN THE NOW. I have misenterpreted visions God gave me for periods of years until the true meaning was revealed to me at the proper time. I prefer the clear testimony of the word of God.


For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
(Col 1:19-20)


I find that interesting eaglesway, do you feel the angels and demons are just representative imagery and not necessarily "real"? I am asking because I have been wondering about these things lately.

To firstborn888 - I said earlier, I do believe the girls at my school were telling the truth and it could not have been a hallucination since they all saw the same thing.
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline thinktank

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2010, 03:18:19 AM »
People have vivid imaginations and mass hallucinations.  :thumbsup:
Well, since I got no response - to you guys think all these stories are real?

There seems to be human imaginations, demonic imaginations and holy spirit revelation.

What often happens is there is a mixture of these three things.

The human imagination comes from God, for we are made in his image, hence scientists and inventors who never even heard of Jesus can receive revelation's of truth that advance science and make the world a better place to live. It is unclear why that some human imagination such as various dreams are not good, perhaps it is because we have the power to do good or evil, the tree. The scripture says that false prophets being exposed will cry because they prophecied deceits from their own imaginations and are not a prophet at all but are a sheperd who keeps cattle.

Demonic influences are rare but do happen to people, such as budda, and various other religions that deny jesus christ came in the flesh. John said test the spirit if they be of God, he who denies that Jesus christ has come in the flesh has a spirit of antichrist.
I recently came across a pop video that contained revelation, it appeared to be from God's holy spirit, but after praying the source was from a demon who in this video is mocking non belivers of the faith. I then found a video that the singer in question revealed a demon threatened her in her dreams.


holy spirit revelation is what wrote the bible and some prophecies by christians. This is a problem to find out what is holy spirit breathed and what is not, I belive it takes skill and a gift of God to discern between false and true. :2c:



Offline eaglesway

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2010, 04:44:05 AM »
I believe demons are real. I don't think all the things seen in dreams and visions are real tho. I believe the scriptures are real and the very word of God- but I don't think my understanding is complete. So when I see or read about stories of visions and dreams and experiences that seem to confirm things like ET, or some other things that I believe the word is clear about- I look at them to see if they could be valid but misinterpreted by the receiver- or if they are just deceptions some enemy is trying to sow among the wheat.

I don't automatically accept or reject anything unless I have already previously evaluated it or the Lord has already given me clear understanding.
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Offline Cardinal

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2010, 05:02:52 AM »
I don't automatically accept or reject anything unless I have already previously evaluated it or the Lord has already given me clear understanding.

 :cloud9: And learning to do this "simple" exercise is oft times the difference in receiving from the Lord, and not.  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor