Author Topic: ET believers and miracles  (Read 12523 times)

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Offline Lefein

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #250 on: October 21, 2010, 07:16:35 PM »
The problem is that when you mix politics with anything, even government, it becomes one gigantic muddy mess.

Religion and politics don't mix, government and politics don't mix...heck, even BEANS and politics don't mix!
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #251 on: October 21, 2010, 08:54:58 PM »
I dunno, I like a little beans with my politics  :icon_joker:
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Offline firstborn888

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #252 on: October 22, 2010, 05:42:20 AM »
Quote from: Firstborn
The reason I'm making a fuss here is because of the many posts proving that many do not see humanity as God sees humanity. Worrying about their own rights instead of fighting for the rights of all humans to live in peace, - for those things you rightfully say "are not subject to our ideas about them".   

If a standing army were marching across our borders, would you take this attitude?  Yet, that is what is happening today and it has been happening for decades.  When that event happened 9 years ago, I said over and over again, instead of trashing our Constitution because we are supposedly no longer safe inside our own country, why don't  they just close our borders?  People just stared at me.  It was not something they seemed to be able to process.  But to leave our borders wide open while simultaneously building up a huge internal legal and bureacratic threat to freedom makes no sense unless that is the plan.  Today you can no longer board a plane without facing the prospect of literally undressing in front of strangers, and 'homelandsecurity' represents the biggest expansion to government since the new deal.  This is not the country I grew up in.

  You will know them by their fruits.  They are trashing our Constitution because that is their goal, and they are letting standing armies cross our border, indeed, even inviting them in because that is their goal.  Someone is trying to change the very nature of this country, and they are succeeding.  If no one pushes back, you will not recognize the country you were born into--my guess, within the next 5 to 10 years.

I consider the country I grew up in a gift from God.  My freedom is very precious to me. I thank God I grew up in a Christian country.  But, I have also seen  vast changes in my lifetime. About 15 years ago, they started with the political correctness nonsense and beating the drum on tolerance in preparation for their last big immigration push.  We no longer have the freedom of speech we had 15 years ago because of it.  I've watched Canada and the western nations fall one by one as political correctness started becoming legalized.  "hate speech' legislation is the beginning of the end for freedom of speech.  Christians are being arrested for their faith in Dearborn, MI and English is becoming a second language in some parts of the southwest.  The indigenous population seems to be the only ones practicing tolerance.

Last year, about 700 thousand people became legal citizens.  Hundreds of thousands more poured across our borders illegally.  Whoever is controlling this influx of new people, it isn't me.  Whoever is controlling it could care less what I think about anything.  I know this because they keep marching forward with their plan,  no matter what I or anyone else like me has to say about it.  We are a country of about 300 million people.  What do you think is going to happen the day congress grants amnesty to 50 million people [my guess at the current number] who are not citizens but living within our borders and puts them on a fast track to citizenship?  The nature of this country will virtually change overnight.  And, how it does will not be up to you because not everyone around the world considers freedom the most precious gift that God has given us, and a gift that is not appreciated will be easily taken away.

Once again - I am in agreement with most of your points. Once again my main disagreement comes from the perceived Christian persecution. When 4 people in Dearborn get arrested, then released and charges dropped AND the DPD is getting sued over it I think it's WAY over the top to say "Christians are being arrested for their faith in Dearborn, MI. You make it sound like they are out rounding up Christians which (of course) is not the case at all.

Maybe it will happen one day but when these little incidents have to be seized upon and then exaggerated - that tells me something.

Keep fighting the good fight Molly. We need to keep America free which includes keeping the government the hell out of spiritual matters.

Offline Lefein

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #253 on: October 22, 2010, 05:48:17 AM »
I'm just thankful the Kingdom of God will be devoid of politics entirely.  Politics really is the single most useless invention mankind ever made...Sometimes I think the bible mistranslated Genesis when it came to the curse; Thou shalt have politics the rest of thy days!  :icon_joker:

In all seriousness though, when it comes to both parties, and this...weird thing "Tea party" I'm completely disgusted with it all.  I miss the good old days, when you could just...Raid the next town, and steal their gold, goods, and women...Have a recession?  Well its because you didn't have enough soldiers!  :icon_joker: 

...And pork was what you ate, not what you hid in a bill  :laughing7:  Ah the good old days, when pigs were pigs, and eating them was an abomination...lol.

Anyway, back to being really serious; I don't think government is the problem, so much as the complete dishonesty in the whole situation.  I'd rather have an honest government, than an effective political movement any day.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Online jabcat

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #254 on: October 22, 2010, 06:12:14 AM »
Why were they arrested?  I haven't looked into it.  Is it, or is it not alarming that could even possibly happen in America?   And if they weren't being "totally inappropriate" (however that may best be defined), why would we not see their arrest as a) incredible, b)unacceptable, and c) alarming if not frightening?  Does anyone really believe that would have been remotely possible even 25 years ago?

Again, I don't know the details...I'm just sayin' "if", then IMO, this doesn't have to be "overblown" to know we got trouble in Motor City.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #255 on: October 22, 2010, 06:28:52 AM »
But......................God has called us to speak the truth, live peaceably, expect to be rebuffed by the world, rejoice and live joyfully (count it all joy), love our enemies, pray for those that persecute us, don't repay evil with evil, care for the orphans and widows - AND SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD.  It's spiritual warfare.  Seeking Jesus is the answer, seeking the Kingdom, and then all things will be added...
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Cardinal

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #256 on: October 22, 2010, 07:15:25 AM »
 :cloud9: I don't understand why people think "religion" and politics shouldn't mix.  :dontknow: I see this as a lie of the enemy that made Christians think they were staying out of the "world" by not "taking the land" their feet stood upon. Our God appointed kings and brought down kings; sound pretty political to me, LOL. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #257 on: October 22, 2010, 07:19:43 AM »
Here's the outcome of the arrested Christians in Dearborn.  They were taken to trial by the city and won.--


Jury Acquits the Four Christian Evangelists Arrested For Proselytizing at the Dearborn Arab Festival .
Wednesday, 29 September 2010 06:13 Right Side News   .Even after the acquittals, Dearborn's mayor, Jack O'Reilly, continued his ongoing and unprecedented personal attacks on the Christian evangelists, accusing them of being anti–Muslim bigots

ANN ARBOR, MI – Late Friday evening, a jury of six Dearborn, Michigan residents returned a unanimous verdict of not guilty of breach of the peace charges, which were brought by the Dearborn Police Department against four Christian evangelists as they were peacefully proselytizing to Muslim youths during the Arab International Festival on June 18, 2010. 


http://www.rightsidenews.com/2010092911783/us/islam-in-america/jury-acquits-the-four-christian-evangelists-arrested-for-proselytizing-at-the-dearborn-arab-festival.html



Here's a video of what was happening when the Christians were arrested--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJSwfalU5Gc

Online jabcat

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #258 on: October 22, 2010, 07:27:56 AM »
Sounds like persecution to me.  Would it be considered persecution if Muslims attempting to hand out tracts to Christians were arrested?

IMO, extremes are extremes.  Saying everything is persecution (which I really don't know anyone that does that, unless they're mentally ill, paranoid) is extreme. OTOH, saying nothing other than martyrdom qualifies as persecution, so there's therefor no persecution occurring in the US, is also extreme.  As is often the case, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.   :2c:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline firstborn888

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #259 on: October 22, 2010, 07:44:36 AM »
Sounds like persecution to me.  Would it be considered persecution if Muslims attempting to hand out tracts to Christians were arrested?


Bottom line: One mayor in one town has a problem. The Christians won their case. Conclusion: free speech is still the law and Christians are NOT being persecuted in America anymore than the other zillion people who have been arrested for whatever and then cleared.

NO churches are being padlocked (like the fear-mongers have been claiming was "about" to happen at LEAST since the 40's).   

Second conclusion: Christian persecution complex is operating. Overtime.

This is a simple free-speech issue. No big devil getting ready to take over.

IMO, extremes are extremes.  Saying everything is persecution (which I really don't know anyone that does that, unless they're mentally ill, paranoid) is extreme. OTOH, saying nothing other than martyrdom qualifies as persecution, so there's therefor no persecution occurring in the US, is also extreme.  As is often the case, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.   :2c:

Biblically - any national persecution involved (at a minimum) people being displaced and "scattered abroad" through fear of harm. Christians are not leaving the U.S. en masse (if at all) due to fear of harm. Big clue that it is not happening at this time, right?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 07:48:05 AM by firstborn888 »

Online jabcat

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #260 on: October 22, 2010, 08:09:00 AM »
I believe I may have a broader definition (as I noted earlier, including with multiple scripture) and/or you're talking about something I'm not exactly talking about.  Again, I don't personally think an extreme view in either direction is accurate.  I believe we're constantly affected and influenced by experiences and influences that color our view;  sometimes, we can over-react and be affected to the point of being biased and distorted in our view and opinions - to one extreme or another.  As stated, I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle in this discussion.

I believe there are various types of persecution, different levels on a continuum - and that any true believer who stands for the truth will experience it.  No, doors aren't being locked on churches, or people beheaded in the US.  But on what do you base the belief that couldn't eventually happen?  It's happening in many places in the world right now.  Do you believe things are going to just keep getting better from here?  If so, is that based on a full preterist POV, some particular experiences/influences, or something else?  I personally have some partial preterist leanings, but I certainly don't think things are going to get better - in fact, will continue to get worse, as in "falling away" - until God steps in and miraculously brings us into the next age.  (There are about 9,011.5 different interpretations on that continuum as well.)  I don't think that means either a) there is persecution under every stone, or b) there's NO persecution occurring at all because it doesn't fit my very narrow definition of the absolute worst 1% of possibilities.

Also, if you don't believe satan's agenda is to destroy the things of God, what do you base that on?  (some definitions and descriptions of satan - liar, thief, destroyer, confuser...)

Edit, in retrospect - I see several different things.  You appear to be talking about a wide-spread societal/national persecution.  I'm probably more so talking about personal, perhaps even spiritual persecution.  However, I also do see a continued deterioration within the fabric of our society, including a more hostile view toward those who name the name of Jesus - that portends the possibility of the eventual development of a more wide-spread, more intense persecution.  But whether or no, depends on God's plans.  So as to not live in fear, paranoia, or joust at windmills, I believe it's time to trust God and pray more, keep our eyes on Him, seek first the Kingdom and hold fast to the hope that He will make all things new.  I find it hard to see anything wrong with that. 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:35:13 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Cardinal

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #261 on: October 22, 2010, 12:00:59 PM »
 :cloud9:  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline firstborn888

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #262 on: October 22, 2010, 01:08:30 PM »
I believe I may have a broader definition (as I noted earlier, including with multiple scripture) and/or you're talking about something I'm not exactly talking about.  Again, I don't personally think an extreme view in either direction is accurate.  I believe we're constantly affected and influenced by experiences and influences that color our view;  sometimes, we can over-react and be affected to the point of being biased and distorted in our view and opinions - to one extreme or another.  As stated, I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle in this discussion.
Agreed - but should it not be incumbent upon the most dominant spiritual belief system in the history of mankind (which claims to have the flawless truth written down in black and white) to take the high road and defend the downtrodden of the world rather than complaining about being disliked in the U.S.?  This is what puzzles me. What would Jesus do?

Again - I see (generally) Christians (here) reacting like any "worldly" people group - defending their own rights and fearful of losing them. Very sure of their own rightness and of the evil of all who speak against their group. 
I believe there are various types of persecution, different levels on a continuum - and that any true believer who stands for the truth will experience it.  No, doors aren't being locked on churches, or people beheaded in the US.  But on what do you base the belief that couldn't eventually happen?  It's happening in many places in the world right now.   
It could happen - things happen. I did state this in one of my posts IIRC. Persecution has been around forever. It's primitive, tribal fear driven behavior. The Turkish Muslims severely persecuted Armenian Christians early last century http://www.umd.umich.edu/dept/armenian/facts/genocide.html although our own government still will not officially acknowledge it (much less the Turkish government). The Christians are not immune to this disease (genocide) themselves as recently as the 1990s when "Christian" Serbs decimated Bosnian Muslims - men, women and children. 

Could this type of persecution happen here in the U.S.? Of course. Look what "Christian" whites did to blacks. The big point is that it absolutely is not happening now to Christians in the U.S. Churches are flourishing and people attend them with absolutely no fear at all (unless maybe if they're doing the Fred Phelps type things). Yet - Phelps church is doing fine and even the liberal ACLU is backing their right to do what they do. 
Do you believe things are going to just keep getting better from here?  If so, is that based on a full preterist POV, some particular experiences/influences, or something else?  I personally have some partial preterist leanings, but I certainly don't think things are going to get better - in fact, will continue to get worse, as in "falling away" - until God steps in and miraculously brings us into the next age.
Preterism has something to do with it I guess. Yet - the world is a great big swirling mass of mess - at least on the surface, no doubt about that. I absolutely do NOT believe that we are headed for some unavoidable doomsday scenario. I mean - people have been living in decaying dust in ignorance and suffering and death for thousands of years. Even the majority of "Christians" live in fear and superstition. How much more falling away do you want? There are many many many reasons to be hopeful. I have crazy faith about "God steps in and miraculously".  :happygrin:
Also, if you don't believe satan's agenda is to destroy the things of God, what do you base that on?  (some definitions and descriptions of satan - liar, thief, destroyer, confuser...) 
I think things are going quite well for satan. The tribal "us verses them" self preservation mentality displayed by many proves that.
Edit, in retrospect - I see several different things.  You appear to be talking about a wide-spread societal/national persecution.  I'm probably more so talking about personal, perhaps even spiritual persecution.  However, I also do see a continued deterioration within the fabric of our society, including a more hostile view toward those who name the name of Jesus - that portends the possibility of the eventual development of a more wide-spread, more intense persecution.  But whether or no, depends on God's plans.  So as to not live in fear, paranoia, or joust at windmills, I believe it's time to trust God and pray more, keep our eyes on Him, seek first the Kingdom and hold fast to the hope that He will make all things new.  I find it hard to see anything wrong with that.
You have a healthy approach outlined there. I am not blind to the bad trends in society but I am not blind to the good ones either. Humans are all basically the same and when they are bound in spiritual ignorance - bad things happen.

OTOH - Much of the animosity toward the "church" has been brought on by the church's own bad behavior. THEN they cry "I'm being persecuted because of righteousness".  :mblush: As stated before - from my POV the only legitimate "persecution for righteousness" is occurring when someone (any person, any group) is attacked for standing up to those who oppress the weak/poor and profit from the suffering of others. 


Offline thinktank

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #263 on: October 22, 2010, 01:48:57 PM »
Even after the acquittals, Dearborn's mayor, Jack O'Reilly, continued his ongoing and unprecedented personal attacks on the Christian evangelists, accusing them of being anti–Muslim bigots. O'Reilly's continuous anti-Christian rhetoric was clearly an attempt to curry favor with Dearborn's large Muslim population, which also explains the Police Department's alarming mobilization to arrest the four Christians.


So you think its acceptable for the mayor of the town to call these evangelists bigots, because they are handing out leaflets to muslims?
Not only does this incite an arrest but also arouse the hatred towards the christians and cause violence. Mayors are supposed to be intelligent but yet is apparently appealing to the crowd to curry favour with the muslim population, I can already see corruption displayed there, but again I don't know the whole story, maybe these minority christains hiding behind the label of Christian were behaving in a bad manner shouting abusive names etc , which might have got the mayors attention. But there is nothing about such things on the article provided here, only that they were handing out leaflets.

But on that note I think that its not the best move to go out fishing for disciples within a Muslim festival. There are plenty of other places one can go and witness to muslims, it's unlikely one is going to make a convert of a muslim in a festival they they deliberatly went to in order to celebrate their religion and in some ways is provoking them, but I'd hate to see outright bans being put in place all over the world on certain festivals, but maybe it's best for the peace, but who knows maybe that's too extreme and might in itself cause unrest, tensions and violence. :2c:




Offline Lefein

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #264 on: October 22, 2010, 01:52:15 PM »
:cloud9: I don't understand why people think "religion" and politics shouldn't mix.  :dontknow: I see this as a lie of the enemy that made Christians think they were staying out of the "world" by not "taking the land" their feet stood upon. Our God appointed kings and brought down kings; sound pretty political to me, LOL. Blessings....

Because "Politics" ruins everything it touches.
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Offline thinktank

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #265 on: October 22, 2010, 02:04:01 PM »
Isn't that rebellion though?. Politics has a purpose, the alternative is a monarchy. Without both there would be anarchy, so political corruption is no longer watched on tv, because someone nicked it!

Offline eaglesway

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #266 on: October 22, 2010, 02:48:55 PM »
Religion ruins everything it touches as well :0) 
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Offline Molly

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #267 on: October 22, 2010, 03:13:05 PM »
If 'religion and politics ruin everything,' what is causing the ruination and what is being ruined?

Sorry, I don't understand what is being said.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #268 on: October 22, 2010, 03:17:56 PM »
A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Beware the leaven of the Pharisees.
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Offline Molly

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #269 on: October 22, 2010, 04:54:27 PM »
One Nation Under Allah? .
Thursday, 21 October 2010 02:32 William Kilpatrick - FrontPageMag.com   .

President Eisenhower famously observed that "our form of government has no sense unless it is founded on a deeply felt religious faith, and I don't care what it is." Now that we are beginning to see the consequences when Muslims act on their deeply felt faith, it's time to revisit Eisenhower's statement. The question is, can we still afford to take an "I don't care what it is" attitude toward religion? In short, does the content of a religion matter?

Or are we to assume that all religions share the same essential truths, as Eisenhower seemed to assume?


It's ironic that the part of Eisenhower's statement which evoked criticism in the early 1950's would pass almost unnoticed today, while the part that seemed unremarkable then would be challenged in many quarters today. When Eisenhower said, "our form of government has no sense unless it is founded on a deeply felt religious faith," he was merely echoing a widespread belief. Even William O. Douglas, the most liberal member of the Supreme Court at the time, and not a particularly religious man, opined in a 1952 decision that "We are a religious people, whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being." Since then, however, we've grown accustomed to the notion that religion ought to have little or no influence on our government and institutions. More and more, religion is looked upon as something that should be confined to the private sphere. As a result, religion has been pushed steadily out of public life—one Christmas crèche, one school prayer, one court decision at a time. These days, most of our institutions, particularly the press, the courts, and the schools, seem to presume that secularism is the officially established belief.

Conversely, the part of Eisenhower's statement that caused many to snicker in the 1950's would strike most today as self-evidently true. Numerous priests, pastors, rabbis, and theologians took Eisenhower to task for adding, "and I don't care what it is" to his endorsement of religion. Long before the threat of Islamization, thoughtful Americans realized that the content of a religion mattered very much. They protested that a vague "faith in faith" would not be enough to sustain our form of society in difficult times.

By contrast, after several decades of multicultural indoctrination we have now reached a pass where "I don't care what it is" seems the height of enlightened wisdom. Our present society is so thoroughly invested in the doctrine of cultural equivalence that hardly anyone dares to publicly express a preference or partiality for one religion over another—except, of course, if the religion happens to be Islam. In that case the neutrality rule seems dispensable. For example, New York's city fathers granted almost immediate approval to the Ground Zero mosque project, but after nine years, the plan to rebuild St. Nicholas Orthodox Church, which was destroyed by the 9/11 blast, has met with nothing but opposition. But, apart from the occasional favoritism shown to Islam, the notion that all religions are equally OK suits us just fine.

Still, the introduction of Islam into the American equation forces us to look more closely than we ever have before at the church/state question. Is the state supposed to ignore religion, or should it encourage it? Are some religions more conducive than others to a healthy social order? Eisenhower's famous statement provides a good starting point for framing some answers. "Ike" was right in saying our form of government doesn't make sense without a religious foundation. The Declaration of Independence, for instance, has religion written all over it. No matter how you parse it, it's difficult to read "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God," "endowed by their Creator," "appealing to the Divine Judge of the World," and "a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence" as an endorsement of secularism. And the benefits of a religious foundation don't end with the establishment of inalienable rights for individual citizens. Religion provides a service to the state, as well; a service that the state can't perform for itself—at least, not very successfully. What is it? In brief, the sacred realm makes sense out of life. Religious faith imparts a conviction of ultimate meaning. And this, in turn, is good for the state because people with meaningful lives tend to be better behaved citizens.

Ah, yes!" exclaims the half-educated leftist, "Religion—the opium of the people!" Not quite. Marx, who had a shallow understanding of religion, thought of religion as an escapist fantasy—an opium dream devised to keep people in a state of passivity. With their eyes focused on the next world, said Marx, believers wouldn't work to change this one. But actual religious people aren't like that. The more actively people practice their faith, the more likely they will be involved in trying to improve their community. That's not just a theory, it's been shown by a number of studies. Just as importantly, religious people feel a duty to improve themselves. Christians, for example, are supposed to try to conform their lives to Christ. The upshot is that people who take their religion seriously have strong incentives to practice virtue and avoid vice. All told, people who learn to govern themselves out of religious motives are better candidates for self-government than people who don't practice self-restraint. This is what John Adams meant when he said "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."

Thus, a society that hopes to maintain a free and self-governing citizenry will want to do everything it can to encourage and foster religion. Just because the government shouldn't be in the business of establishing a specific religion, doesn't mean it should be neutral as between religion and irreligion. If, as Adams wrote, our Constitution would only work with a moral and religious people, then it makes sense for the state to do what it can to provide a favorable climate for religion—as it does, for example, by providing tax exempt status to churches. Joe Sobran once made the point that although the First Amendment right to a free press implies a right not to read, along with the right to read, no one ever suggests that the state should remain neutral as between reading and non-reading. Reading, like religion, has its dangers but, on the whole, literacy is good for the health of a society. Thus, for example, lessons in reading and writing are not optional for the elementary school set.

As President Eisenhower correctly noted, our form of government doesn't make much sense apart from "deeply felt religious faith." But exactly what religion are we talking about? Will any "deeply felt faith" do? Or were Eisenhower, Douglas, and the rest implicitly assuming a Judeo-Christian framework?

It's the second part of Eisenhower's statement that is problematic—the "and I don't care what it is" part. The question is, are religions interchangeable? Will any religion provide a proper foundation for our form of government? Does every religion confer equal benefits to society and to individuals? Suppose Eisenhower had said "Our form of government has no sense unless it is founded on a deeply held religious faith such as Islam?" It would sound strange, to say the least.  And it's a good bet that Islam was pretty far from Eisenhower's thoughts on the occasion of his speech. The man who named the war against the Nazis "the Crusade in Europe" was obviously thinking of another religion when he made his famous statement.

How about Justice William O. Douglas? When he said, "We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being," which Supreme Being did he have in mind? Considering that he was speaking about the American people and their institutions, it's highly unlikely that he was thinking of Allah.

According to the Declaration of Independence, all men are created equal, but are all Supreme Beings equal? The Declaration states that men are "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights," but which Creator is the Declaration referring to? It would make no sense to claim that Allah would qualify for the position, because in Islam all men are not created equal. Muslims, who are described in the Koran as "the best of people," are considered to be decidedly superior to non-Muslims. For example, under Shariah law a Muslim who kills another Muslim may have to pay with his life, but a Muslim who kills a non-Muslim need only pay "blood money" to the murdered man's relatives. Islamic charity isn't dispensed equally, either. It's only meant for other Muslims. During the recent flooding in Pakistan, police and local clerics refused aid and shelter to Christians and Hindus, despite the fact that the majority of relief money and supplies came from non-Muslim countries. "With charity toward all" is an alien concept in much of the Muslim world.

The Supreme Being as depicted in the Koran is an entirely different sort of being from the one depicted in the Judeo-Christian tradition. Although a lot of Christians like to say that "We all worship the same God," the Koran explicitly rejects Christianity and the Christian notion of God. It does this on several occasions and in no uncertain terms. The Jesus of the Koran, for example, seems to have been introduced into it for the sole purpose of denying the claims of Jesus of Nazareth.

In any event, Muslims are not called to the imitation of the Muslim Jesus, but to the imitation of Muhammad. In Islamic tradition he is considered the perfect man, the supreme model of conduct. Just as Christians are supposed to conform their lives to Christ, Muslims are expected to conform their lives to Muhammad. Unfortunately, for those who think that religions are interchangeable, the imitation of Muhammad leads in a very different direction than the imitation of Christ. The imitation of Muhammad leads to unequal treatment of believers and non-believers, to child brides, polygamy, wife beating, stoning for adulterers, the murder of apostates, and various other, shall we say, un-American activities.

Granted, not every American feels called upon to follow Christ, but even lax Christians and non-Christian Americans are the heirs of a culture that was shaped by Christian beliefs. Not everyone practices Christian virtues or recognizes that our moral standards are derived from Jewish and Christian sources, but most Americans recognize that our society benefits when those standards are observed. On the other hand, the taken-for-granted nature of Judeo-Christian standards makes it easy to suppose that what is, in fact, a unique cultural and religious achievement is simply the normal condition of mankind. That's why for many Americans it's extremely difficult to imagine what life would be like under an Islamic moral code.

For a long time we've had the luxury of not having to think very deeply about the relationship between our form of government and our religious tradition. Now that mosques are popping up all over, it's time to ask whether our institutions presuppose merely a generic religion or whether they are linked to a specific religious tradition. When John Adams said "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people," what religion and what morality did he have in mind? Do we really have the luxury of saying "I don't care what it is?"

A few months ago, Steve Chapman, a columnist for the Chicago Tribune, wrote a piece criticizing opponents of the Ground Zero mosque. In it, Chapman maintained that even if Islam were "inherently violent and totalitarian" it would still deserve the full protection of the First Amendment. Can that really be true? "I may disagree with your head-chopping policy, but I will defend to the death your right to exercise it?" Even Voltaire would have balked at that.

The profound ignorance and dysfunctionality of Islamic societies suggests that all religions are not equal in their capacity to benefit society. Just as it's not wise for a society to maintain a strict neutrality between religion and irreligion, it's equally unwise to pretend that the content of a religious tradition is a matter of complete indifference. They've tried that experiment in Europe and the results have been disastrous. Several years ago the framers of the European Constitution refused to acknowledge the Christian contribution to European civilization. Of course, that was just the confirmation of the post-Christian direction European elites had chosen decades before. And how is the new Christian-free Europe faring? Well, let's see: you can't teach the Holocaust or the Crusades in British schools, forced marriages are the norm in the Midlands, there are "no-go" zones in every French city, female genital mutilation is widely practiced, people who offend Islam go on trial, Jews are fleeing Sweden, and native Dutch and Britons are leaving their respective countries in droves. In short, the dysfunctional culture of the Middle East has set up branch offices in England and on the Continent. Thanks to the multicultural insistence on the moral equivalence of all cultures and religions, post-Christian Europe is rapidly becoming post-free Europe.

Can't happen here? It can and it will unless we rid ourselves of the notion that religions are interchangeable. Nothing facilitates jihad like naivete. And one of our biggest blind spots is the failure to recognize that different religious beliefs can and do result in radically different cultures.

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William Kilpatrick's articles have appeared in FrontPage Magazine, First Things, Catholic World Report, National Catholic Register, Jihad Watch, World, and Investor's Business Daily.


Online jabcat

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« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 05:37:30 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Lefein

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #271 on: October 23, 2010, 05:47:44 AM »
That law is unconstitutional.  It goes against the amendment for freedom of, and expression of religion, as well as free speech...not to mention common sense freedom of who you get to live with, and having a peaceful home.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #272 on: October 23, 2010, 06:13:04 AM »
If it were to say for instance, "Muslim roommate wanted"...wouldn't you just shrug, say "OK, that's fine", and go on about your business?

Seems to me something is "creeping in"...as has been said before  :winkgrin:, "know who your enemy is".     

"For we battle not against flesh and blood..."  Apostle Paul.

"Sound the cry, there's a battle going on
Though there are many unaware, the conflict still is strong
It's not neighbor against neighbor, or against a country overseas
The fight is light against darkness, and it's fought best on our knees".  jabcat   :bigGrin:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Lefein

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #273 on: October 23, 2010, 06:27:01 AM »
You wax poetic dear friend, and you speak wisdom in your stanzas.

hmmmn...That is indeed a blatant case of persecution of the subtle sort I was talking about.  We are not yet burned at stakes, and our fundamentalist brethren aren't being locked out of their temples...But there is a spirit at work, and he is malice...

Thankfully, God is moving.  Did anyone see the NBC nightly news broadcast on house churches becoming more and more common?  If it is on NBC nightly news...it is obvious news.  I am thankful that God is moving indeed, it is a sign that the revival many of us (or atleast I have) been smelling on the air, is soon to make its appearance.

Darkness in culture, economy, and government...It was when Israel was at its evilest that revival came, or judgement overthrew them...May the Josiahs amongst us read the word, and with the Spirit, tear down the idols and Asherah poles in the hearts of the people.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

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Re: ET believers and miracles
« Reply #274 on: October 23, 2010, 06:29:55 AM »
Thank you, and amen, amen!     Darkness comes before dawn, and joy comes in the morning!

House churches, I am indeed interested in.  Back to a personal, simple, fellowship, with "the power thereof".
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23