Author Topic: Does God protect the written word from human error?  (Read 2283 times)

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Offline JBerton

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Does God protect the written word from human error?
« on: April 10, 2013, 11:33:03 PM »

As we were discussing the "666 pebbles" thread, the question was raised as to whether God protects the inspired scriptures from human error.  Some believe this, and my father, a Baptist minister, taught it.  But is there scripture to back up that belief?
THE FOLLOWING IS A QUOTE FROM ANOTHER THREAD:

Some of these may be talking about Jesus the Word made flesh, God's thoughts, intentions, things He's provided written.  I haven't searched it all out, but they're obviously great scrips.  There are also a couple of little commentaries included that I found useful.  Enjoy and be blessed!

2 Thessalonians, the Bible reads: ".that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified."

"I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."   (Ps 138:2) 

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.  Add you not unto his words, lest he reprove you, and you be found a liar." (Proverbs 30:5-6)

"You shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish anything from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."  (Deuteronomy 4:2) 

For I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Rev. 22:18-19) 

"Then the devil took him up into the holy city, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple,  And said unto him, If You be the Son of God, cast Yourself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning You: and in their hands they shall bear You up, lest at any time You dash Your foot against a stone."  (Matt 4:5-6) 

In this example Satan omitted the phrase, "to keep You in all Your ways," demonstrating that the devil is so audacious that he dares to subtract from God's word when face to face with their author!  This, right after being informed that man lives by "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God."!  If Satan is so bold as to lie to God incarnate, how much more when faced with the likes of fallible men?  The devil attacks the Lord's words by using one of his most potent weapons - doubt.  He didn't start off by brazenly denying God's words, but rather by attempting to undermine Eve's confidence in them. – Chris Long

1 PETER 1:23 -- "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God which liveth and abideth forever."

1 PETER 1:25 -- "But the word of the Lord endures for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."
Hebrews 2:3 instructs us that the gospel "at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him."

MATTHEW 24:35 – "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
ISAIAH 40:8 -- "The grass withers, the flower fades: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."

ISAIAH 59:21 -- "As for me, this is my covenant with them, says the Lord; My spirit that is upon you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, nor out of the mouth of your seed, nor out of the mouth of your seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever."

PSALM 119:152 -- "Concerning your testimonies, I have known of old that You have founded them for ever."

Psalm 12:6-7  "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. You shall keep them, O LORD, You shall preserve them from this generation for ever."

PSALM 33:11 -- "The counsel of the Lord stands for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations."

Psalm 33:11 says God's thoughts would not be lost but rather would stand to all generations, and we know from passages such as 1 Corinthians 2:12-13 that these divine thoughts have been expressed through divinely-chosen words. "Which things also we speak, NOT IN THE WORDS which man's wisdom teacheth, BUT WHICH the Holy Ghost teacheth..."
All scripture is God-breathed..2 Tim. 3:16

"Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read" —Isaiah 34:16, KJV

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Offline jabcat

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2013, 11:45:41 PM »
Since you're quoting my post haha, I want to jump in real quick and say that I believe there's much human error in almost everything - including probably ALL of our translations.  Although it's sort of astounding to me, I know a person or two that God revealed ultimate reconciliation to, even while they were reading the KJV!  That's only the hand of God.  I certainly can't see it there, but God can reveal and lead in many ways, supernaturally translating, interpreting, and revealing.  That's a reason I believe anything we read, hear, or think needs to be sensitively "filtered through" the Holy Spirit.  I also believe it's good to compare translations, go to the Greek and Hebrew when possible, etc...because I believe most translations have the "bones" there, but that there are things that need to be clarified and "sought out".   :2c:

As far as the basic issue involved;  Here's what's crystalized for me, and I'm glad for it - because for me, it's a relief and resolves some dissonance in my own mind/spirit.
I believe God's written Word is threaded within many, many written (and spoken) things we currently have - including many translations and the early manuscripts.  God hides matters, He expects (and helps) us to search those matters out.  This is NOT a textual criticism to say "the Bible's wrong", unreliable, not inspired, etc.   (If I did that I'd be breaking forum guidelines and one of the mods would need to remove it and give me a warning haha.  But even our discussion forum Guidelines where it says "don't trash the scriptures"  state this  "We recognize there are translational issues, as well as many different viewpoints, levels of understanding, and varying degrees of levels of Spirit-revelation within the scriptures".).          I think His Message (the thought/spoken/written Word) is there, and He expects us to pursue and respect it - but that because there are translational issues, man's opinions built in, etc., we have to dig and look to Him for guidance and revelation within what's written.   As far as the earliest manuscripts, as I understand any discrepancies between the most reliable ones are minute and incidental.  It's in the passing on of that by translators that the main problems occur.

 My summary point would be this;  I believe the Originals, as God breathed them to the early transcribers, is just exactly what God wanted to say.  For some reason(s) He didn't allow those originals to be preserved (as far as we currently know), and left us with many translations and opinions.  However, due to all those scrips posted above, and God's dealings with me directly, I strongly believe that within all that, His spoken and written Word has been preserved for us.  We just need to seriously look (Bereans) and seriously be open and look to Him for guidance, revelation, understanding, wisdom.

Blessings.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 12:16:20 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2013, 11:57:02 PM »
P.S.  If your dad truly believes there's no human error within translations, then I disagree.  OTOH, I respect his respect for the Word, in that I believe many today, even within the church, are denying and attempting to  "diminish" it, and teaching in error - to their harm and others.       Also, if he were to mean that threaded within those translations and manuscripts is God's true, Holy written Word to us - then I'd agree with him, that that is infallible and inerrant.  But he may be talking about a particular translation rather than us using what we have, along with the Holy Spirit's revelation, to receive God's Words to us, so you'd know more exactly what he means with his beliefs.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2013, 12:26:24 AM »
    This book, the Bible, is like no other, having a unique mathematical coding.  This is not to be confused with the Equal-Skip Letter Sequence (ELS) codes so often written about these days.  Unlike the ELS codes, this coding was discovered, before the days of modern computers, by Ivan Panin, a Russian literary critic who, like so many before him, tried to discredit the Book of Books, but in time he became a Christian.  This came about by his natural curiosity about that Book's word use, and in time he found that using the numerical values for the Hebrew or Greek letters (Many ancient written languages had no separate sets of numerals.) a complex code of numerical patterns and patterns-within-patterns began to appear.  Many or most of these patterns can be factored by the number seven, a number which indicates Divinity.  Panin spent fifty years on the subject, produced a Mathematical New Testament which (so I have been told) runs to thousands of pages, and most importantly, demonstrated that this Book could not have been composed by any merely human mind.

What the above means is that the original autographs are mathematically perfect, and thus, with what we do have, can be restored with mathematical precision.  For instance, unlike many modern textual critics who dismissed the last twelve verses of the Gospel of Mark, Panin saw that the numbers were correct, and proved that they belonged.  So, we see that God's Word is not lost or even corrupted, except in translations, and some of those are quite good, others not so good.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline JBerton

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2013, 12:33:17 AM »
God can reveal and lead in many ways, supernaturally translating, interpreting, and revealing.  That's a reason I believe anything we read, hear, or think needs to be sensitively "filtered through" the Holy Spirit.  I also believe it's good to compare translations, go to the Greek and Hebrew when possible, etc...because I believe most translations have the "bones" there, but that there are things that need to be clarified and "sought out".

Absolutely. :thumbsup:

God hides matters, He expects (and helps) us to search those matters out.  This is NOT a textual criticism to say "the Bible's wrong", unreliable, not inspired, etc.   (If I did that I'd be breaking forum guidelines and one of the mods would need to remove it and give me a warning haha.  But even our discussion forum Guidelines where it says "don't trash the scriptures"  state this  "We recognize there are translational issues, as well as many different viewpoints, levels of understanding, and varying degrees of levels of Spirit-revelation within the scriptures".).          I think His Message (the thought/spoken/written Word) is there, and He expects us to pursue and respect it - but that because there are translational issues, man's opinions built in, etc., we have to dig and look to Him for guidance and revelation within what's written.   As far as the earliest manuscripts, as I understand any discrepancies between the most reliable ones are minute and incidental.  It's in the passing on of that by translators that the main problems occur.

Yes, he definitely wants us to pursue him.  We must search in humility, not thinking we already understand all things spiritual, because God only reveals things to "little children."  Jesus spoke in code (parables, similitudes, metaphors, etc) to the masses and to the Pharisees, but talked straight to his disciples and those who came to him in earnestness and belief.  They were the ones searching for Truth, and he reveals things to those who search and ask with a pure and open :HeartThrob:.
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Offline jabcat

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2013, 03:29:35 AM »
    This book, the Bible, is like no other, having a unique mathematical coding. demonstrated that this Book could not have been composed by any merely human mind.

What the above means is that the original autographs are mathematically perfect, and thus, with what we do have, can be restored with mathematical precision.    So, we see that God's Word is not lost or even corrupted, except in translations, and some of those are quite good, others not so good.

I agree.  I believe His written Word is there.   I believe it just comes down to translations, and the Holy Spirit revealing.


Yes, he definitely wants us to pursue him.  We must search in humility, not thinking we already understand all things spiritual, because God only reveals things to "little children." .. he reveals things to those who search and ask with a pure and open :HeartThrob:.

 :thumbsup: :gimmefive:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline JBerton

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2013, 06:38:33 PM »
Here are a few scriptures that contain the phrase "word of God" or "word of the Lord."  This is by no means an exhaustive list, as that would be overwhelming.  I am not finding any scriptures that I believe are saying that God takes an active role in protecting/preserving the human-written scriptures, except that Paul stated that all scripture is God-breathed (inspired), and that of course was talking about the original pennings of the scriptures, not later translations.  More research is certainly needed.  The scriptures I found in the old testament containing those phrases were generally referring to God speaking the individuals directly.  In the new testament, I pulled out the ones listed below.  This proved revealing to me, as I am just beginning to really get a full grasp on the fact that the Word of God IS Jesus!  Perhaps Jesus could be thought of as the personification of God's thoughts.  These NT scriptures are referring to the gospel and to Jesus, which I suppose are one and the same.

Acts 4:31  And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness. (gospel)

Acts 6:7  And the word of God continued to increase, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith. (gospel)
   
Eph 6:17  and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God (any ideas?)

1 Thes 2:13  And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers. (gospel) (Jesus)

Heb 4:12  For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (Jesus at work in us)

Heb 11:3  By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. (Jesus)

1 Peter 1:23  since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God (Jesus)

Rev 19:13  He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. (Jesus)

Acts 15:35  But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also. (gospel)
   
1 Peter 1:25  but the word of the Lord remains forever." And this word is the good news that was preached to you. (the covenant, Jesus)

Last but not least, the first few verses of the book of John tell us the Jesus is the Word of God.  Still, I have not found any scriptures to back up the concept that God takes an active role in protecting/preserving the human-written scriptures.  If anyone knows of any scripture you believe does, let me know.

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Offline jabcat

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2013, 07:47:22 PM »
j, I think it's all over the scriptures I posted, that God establishes and protects His Word - in all forms - including thought, spoken, and written.  [edit - but yeah, not necessarily specific translations - I don't see that either.  I just believe His written Word is WITHIN many of the translations we have, we just need to seek accurate translation and interpretation (from the Holy Spirit), to clarify our own and other human error]. 

As far as this "Heb 4:12  For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.  (Jesus at work in us)" - was (Jesus at work in us) your interpretation?  If it was or not, I think that's certainly true.  However, I think it's also certainly true that it means God at work in us, His Spirit at work in us, and any of His SAYINGS at work in - either written and/or revealed within us through the Holy Spirit.  Here's one reason why.  The "word of God is living and active" means in the Greek, logos - which includes the SAYINGS [including written] of God.

That's my understanding.  Blessings.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 09:25:48 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2013, 07:59:08 PM »
It's exciting.  Again, just today as I began to read, it seemed God directed me specifically to this certain page, and to begin and this certain spot.  I didn't know what I was reading until after the first few words.


4 Now since a great crowd was together, and those from city after
city were coming to Him, He told an illustration, 5 "The seed planter
went out to plant his seed. Now in planting his seeds, some fell beside
the road and it was trampled, and the birds of the sky devoured it. 6 Now
some other fell down on the bedrock, and when it sprouted, it dried up,
because it had no moisture. 7 Now some other fell in the middle of the
thorns; and the thorns sprouted together with it and choked it. 8 Now·
some other fell into the good earth, and when it sprouted, it produced fruit
a hundred times over." After saying these things, He was shouting,
"Whoever has ears to hear, must be continually hearing!"


9 Now His students began asking Him as to what this illustration
might mean. 10 Now He said, "To know the secrets of God's Kingdom
has been given to you, yet it is in illustrations to the rest, so that 'though
they are observing, they shall not observe; and though they are hearing,
they shall not understand'  lsa. 6:91. 11 Now this is what the illustration
means: The seed is God's Word. 12 Now those beside the road are the
people who have heard it; after this, the Adversary [Satan] comes and
takes away the Word from their hearts
, so that they won't believe and be
saved [from Destruction]. 13 Now those on the bedrock are the people
who when they hear it, accept the Word with joy; but these don't have
any of its root; they believe for a time period, then in a time period of
testing they withdraw. 14 Now these among the thorns where the seed
fell, are the people who have heard it, out as they go on their way, they
are stifled by the concerns, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fmit
to maturity. 15 Now these in the ideal earth where the seed is, are the
people who when they have heard the Word, are holding on to it with an
ideal and good heart, and are producing fruit with endurance.
16 "Now no one, after lighting a lamp, covers it with a container,
·or places it underneath a couch; but places it on a lampstand, so that


Do you see how Jesus the Word calls what is said to them, also the Word?  He calls it 'it', not
'Him'.     You said Jesus is called the Word in John.  He is.   If you didn't see it, please see in the 666 Pebbles thread where there are multiple scriptures  that break "the Word" into different "categories", i.e., Jesus the Word made flesh, but also
the spoken, thought, and written Word of God.  I was thinking about this yesterday some more.  IMO, the Word is "everything
that proceeds out of the mouth of God" ("bread alone, but by every word..).  So I don't think we'd say God only preserves Jesus, but not
every Word that has proceeded out of His mouth.  And so we have this;  "the Holy Spirit spoke through men of old", and "every scripture is God-breathed".  So for me, this crystalizes this discussion.  God would protect EVERY piece of His Word, including the written.
   :2c:

Blessings.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2013, 08:59:16 PM »
Sorry, but there are times I'm just silent, while other times there's a topic that just totally perks me up.  This (the validity of the scriptures)  is one of those 3 or 4, so I promise, when this topic settles down some, I'll be quiet again.   Don't anyone amen that, thumbs up it, etc.   :laugh:

So j, I re-read your post, and this became more clear;   "I am not finding any scriptures that I believe are saying that God takes an active role in protecting/preserving the human-written scriptures, except that Paul stated that all scripture is God-breathed (inspired), and that of course was talking about the original pennings of the scriptures, not later translations."    I understand better what you're saying and edited my post.  On the narrowest level of the discussion -  IMO, there are only a very few that believe there's a certain TRANSLATION that's perfect, without any human error.  I'm with you on that VERY NARROW QUESTION - I don't see any scripture that says "God will give you a perfect translation and keep it from all human error".     So if that's STRICTLY the only question and issue, OK.

However, there's  been a broader issue before, and is really why we have the scriptural expectations in place for forum discussion, i.e., on TM it's the default setting that the scriptures, when accurately translated (as much as possible), rightly divided, and Spirit-revealed, are trustworthy, reliable, and pertinent to matter of faith and practice and are to be treated with respect - and the issue has been are the scriptures inspired, to be believed, paid attention to, etc.       So if that BROADER point is at issue at all, then IMO, we either believe that God has preserved His Word  for us  (logos, "SAYINGS of God") - in all forms (including His Son) and is available to those given to see and hear, seek and find;   or we just honestly believe it's suspect, unreliable, not to be found, i.e., dismiss it.    I personally believe that's a creeping thread in the church we see, i.e., "only Jesus is the Word" (IMO, not scripturally sound), "only the Voice within me is to be listened to", etc.     I believe that's leaning into the opposite extreme of "the Bible is the only thing" - with neither view being correct and damaging to the church and to us individually - believe, and unbeliever.   

OK, I'm going to really try to not post anything in either this thread or the 666 thread for a good bit - unless there's a direct question I can give a quick reply to and get out again, or truly need to moderate.    Everyone give a big hearty group cheer!   :bigGrin:

BTW, just like all of us, all of this I'm sharing is MY UNDERSTANDING, what I BELIEVE God has dealt with me on, realizing I sometimes miss His will and insert my own thoughts into things.  So test all things, hold to that which is good.  Blessings and grace.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 09:29:24 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline JBerton

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2013, 10:25:00 PM »
Jabcat,
My question is narrower than you may have first thought, quite narrow, as a matter of fact.  That's probably because my Subject/title was not clear in my intention.  No need to be silent.  I am learning everyday from other people on this forum (with due caution, of course, testing everything in the scriptures and the Holy Spirit's guidance).  You said, "IMO, the Word is "everything that proceeds out of the mouth of God."  This seems very well stated.  I believe that the Word of God is Jesus, the gospel message, personal revelations to individuals, true prophecies, sometimes dreams, etc.  I share your concern that some people may hear our talk about errors in the scripture translations and assume that we are bashing the validity of the Bible.  Certainly not.  We believe that God has caused his inspired written word to come down to us with sufficient accuracy to fill it's intended purpose, whether there is a scripture that says so or not.  That's because we know that it is the nature of God to provide for us, and he is faithful.  Thanks for all your input.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 10:29:57 PM by jbertonbounds »
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Offline jabcat

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2013, 11:25:25 PM »
 :dsunny:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline marie glen

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2013, 12:26:40 AM »
I too believe there's much validity in saying the Word of God is anything God speaks!:mthumbsup:
Yet to balance that out is the thought of God's revealed Word to us, by which we are told to test all things.. I think it's important to remember that the "heart is deceitful above all things".. when it comes to dreams, visions, or even the gift of prophecy, it's all sort of up for grabs.. I mean I believe that voice i have come to recognize as His, yet I shouldn't forget that it is being filtered through my own mind or consciousness, and my own heart. So even that, in my understanding, I need to test via His written Word. And of course I can only do that by being well acquainted with it, so I feel it is one of the things His Spirit inspires and brings to fruition within His own..

I do think He protects it, but has allowed some errors! Sort of like man is able to make choices, so the world is as it is, yet He is in complete control, accomplishing all His will in these ages.. Like when Jesus said about the Pharisees and perhaps much of Israel itself.. "lest hearing they believe and be saved" - we could ask, but doesn't He want ALL to hear and be saved? Absolutely, yet this drama (life as we know it and the ages of it) is His drama for important purpose (I would assume?)
- Does it say no repentance after death? being resurrected still in their sins (2nd Resurrection) during age of Judgment? sure to be weeping and wailing?
- Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
- "Behold I make aLL things new" Rev21:5
- "On every high mountain and hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day ..when the towers fall." Is 30:25
- "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1
- "The lion will eat straw like the ox.. the bear will graze with the cow" Is 11:7
- "They will sit each under his vine, and under his fig-tree, with none troubling.." Micah 4:4

Offline JBerton

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2013, 12:52:09 AM »
There are a number of warnings in both testaments against altering the scriptures or gospel in any way.  I guess this is a form of protection.  When I mentioned his word being, among other things, personal revelations to individuals, true prophecies, sometimes dreams, I was referring only to those that are truly of God.  There certainly are many of those that are false.  I believe that many of our modern translations of the scriptures are very accurate and that the errors are few and far between.  Someone has already mentioned that much of the error is in human interpretation.
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Offline marie glen

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2013, 03:29:52 AM »
Amen! I knew that was what you meant! Yet too I don't think it can be said too much.. there's so many in the world carried about with every wind of doctrine, and everyone has a vision.. :smile:

But, often if we speak the Word we get turned off/dialog seems to stop
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 03:33:46 AM by marie glen »
- Does it say no repentance after death? being resurrected still in their sins (2nd Resurrection) during age of Judgment? sure to be weeping and wailing?
- Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
- "Behold I make aLL things new" Rev21:5
- "On every high mountain and hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day ..when the towers fall." Is 30:25
- "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1
- "The lion will eat straw like the ox.. the bear will graze with the cow" Is 11:7
- "They will sit each under his vine, and under his fig-tree, with none troubling.." Micah 4:4

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2013, 03:42:21 AM »
The scriptures, properly translated, are the Logos of God. They interpret themselves in the mind of Christ, through the grace of God, by the Spirit.

Becoming rhema, specifically applied, immediate, in the NOW prophetic- they are the SWORD of THE SPIRIT.

IMO, God left them as a rosetta stone.

What many forget is that a primary purpose in the creation of the first Lampstand, Israel, was the breathing out and preservation of the scriptures.

Holy men moved of God.....given to NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION.

That means for every question that the scriptures seem to produce by paradoxical paradigms :o).....

There is a resolution in the mind of Christ by the SPIRIT"S ILLUMINATION that SATISFIES BOTH THE CONSCIENCE(core of consciousness in man) AND THE SCRIPTURES.

Debate cannot find the pathway into that resolution. Intelligence is not enough. Seeking, waiting, mid-rash(speaking the truth in love), praying, meditating..... These are the pathways into that resolution which is the "unity of the faith, unto a mature man, no longer tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine....."

That is why we insist on speaking the truth in love on this forum as a standard to be at least attempted consistently :o)

Union, communion, the "wisdom from above", the resolution of love, the scriptures were breathed by the Spirit of Christ bearing witness to Himself in the prophets and patriots of the old, and by the apostles of the new...... parchments ever NEW, ever SURE, ever extending into the HEAVENLY REALMS for any who will follow diligently the pathway, sell all, buy the field, dig for the treasure.

What the Pharisees did with the scriptures, "You do err knowing neither the scriptures or the power of God"- Jesus......

HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SCRIPTURES THEMSELVES. It was the hardness of their hearts, within which the word had no place- tho their minds were full of it. They did not kno the "spirit of the word".

All word- dry up. All spirit, blow-up. Spirit and word, grow up.

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Offline jabcat

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2013, 04:23:48 AM »
Last 5 posts;

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


 :trampoline:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline JBerton

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2013, 11:06:42 PM »
Eaglesway -  :goodpost:
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Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2013, 05:31:58 AM »
As I read this thread this evening, I thought about the early English translators, and I think it is hard to miss the Hand of God in their work, especially in view of the danger to themselves and the opposition of the Church of the time.

On the other hand, and I don't remember where I read it, the fellow who translated Good News for Modern Man was struck dumb for a time after the paraphrase was finished.  God's doing?  Maybe. 
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline sheila

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2013, 05:16:52 PM »
EW   that was a wonderful post.... to the law and to the testimony!!!!!!!that lay dead in the street

   ...and a spirit of breath/life of the Lord entered them..and they stood on their feet.

   and a voice said 'Come up here"!

   and the last Adam become a quickening spirit!!!!!!!!!


   Hallelujah!!!!!!!

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2013, 06:37:23 PM »
To the law and the testimony, if they hold not to this word, they have no light of dawn



We did not make up cleverly devised tales when we told you of the power and manifestation of our Lord Jesus, for we were eye witnesses of His glory...... For this reason we have the prophetic word made more sure to which you do well to PAY ATTENTION until the day dawns and the day star rises in your hearts. 2 Pet 1
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Offline jabcat

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2013, 11:48:38 PM »
Here's the default setting at TM;

"Discussion is within the scriptures...Accurately translated (as much as is currently possible), and the Spirit within the letters having been revealed to us, they are reliable.

Outright texual criticism is not an allowed topic or matter of discussion on the TM discussion forum.  It is seen as a divisive tool within the body, and not helpful to others' growth in the faith of Jesus Christ.  Also, repeated veiled references within posts that the scriptures are untrue, or to be discounted in matters of belief and practice, are not only discouraged, but will be moderated based upon moderators' discretion.  Continuing to ignore these policies, or public criticism of moderators' decisions, will be subject to a ban from the forum."

j berton, you started this thread.  Have you gotten enough of what you were after when you did?  If not and if we can discuss within guidelines, we can leave it open.  If not, it will be locked and we can move on to other topics.  Thanks, blessings.

Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2013, 04:58:27 AM »
Does God protect the written word from human error? 

The answer is NO. Why do I say that? Because Jesus Himself proved this fact.  In Matthew chapter 5, Christ begins a series of  "You have heard it said by them of old time..." followed by, "BUT I say unto you..." In every case, the "BUT I say unto you..." is a dramatic change from the Old Testament, each and every time he says "You have heard it said by them of old time..."

Why is this?  Because the scribes who wrote the Old Testament didn't have it quite right..... in fact, they were dead wrong!  Just was correcting what they had wrong! Every time Jesus said; "BUT I say unto you..." He was correcting the errors in the Old Testament, and setting the record straight concerning the TRUE NATURE of God, not the WAR GOD Jehovah portrayed in the Old Testament.

Christ came to show everyone what God was REALLY LIKE, not what primitive people "thought" He was like. The WAR GOD portrayed in many parts of the Old Testament is the reason everyone was expecting a "Conquering Messiah" that would CRUSH their enemies. It was the WAR GOD portrayed in the Old Testament that led to the horrendous torture and crucifixion of Jesus! This is because the TRUE NATURE of God being revealed by Christ was so different, and so repulsive to our savage ancestors - and they emphatically REJECTED Him and His message of unconditional LOVE!

The primary reason for all of this is because the scribes "added to," and "took away from" the actual truth about God when they wrote it down. Have you never wondered why God appeared to be so savage and cruel in the Old Testament? The truth is.... He WAS NOT that way - and Jesus came to correct what was wrong, and reveal to us unambiguously what God is TRULY like.

This fact alone proves the written word is subject to the opinions and biases of fallible men. The adding and taking away from the scriptures is a proven fact. Even the written word itself warns us that this could take place - and to believe that it has not occurred is just plain naive.

Who was being spoken about in these warnings? The scribes are the recorders so it must be referring to them. Look at what Jesus says about the scribes in places like Matthew chapter 23 (and many, many others). It boggles the mind that people believe the scribes never added to or took away from scripture in light of what Jesus says about the scribes.

Jesus wants us to have faith IN HIM - not a collection of writings. He LIVES within us as the Comforter, and He has "written His laws in our minds and on our hearts" so that "NO ONE would have to teach his neighbor":

  • Hebrews 8:10-11 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest."

The New Covenant IS the Spirit - it was never intended to be 'another letter.'



It is the LIVING WORD "written in our minds and on our hearts" that is protected from human error, not the  words "written in ink" exposed to countless 'human hands and primitive, biased minds.' The Jesus that lives within us as the Holy Spirit is the ultimate and ONLY guide and test for the reasonableness of ANY given beliefs, words, or the countless winds (spirits) of doctrine that originate from misinterpretations and misunderstandings of the "words written in ink."

Bible inerrant people believe the scribes were faithful in all their duties, Jesus emphatically tells us they were NOT.

Who are we to believe?

Where does Jesus tell us this if we cannot trust the scriptures?(Accurately translated and illuminated by the Spirit)

Without the scriptures how do we know what Jesus told us?On what basis should we accept anyoe elses version of what Jesus said and meant?

How many times did Jesus say, "It is written"?

He told the Pharisees that they erred in not knowing the scriptures or the power of God.

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline JBerton

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2013, 05:49:22 PM »
Jabcat,

If you feel you should, then shut 'er down, brother.  I'm good with it.  It has been most helpful. 

I will say that I believe that the errors that have occurred in the translations are few and far between, and insignificant overall.  If one believes it is highly errant then why would he even read it, let alone study it?  Most of the discrepancies we see are in errant human interpretations of what was given pure.  This discussion has helped me clarify in my own belief system that the Word of God is Jesus, the printed scriptures, personal revelations from God, true prophecy, etc.  I have come to realize that, although there are some human errors at times, God does protect the various forms of his word in various ways.  I believe God certainly must be keeping an eye on the written/printed word.  Thanks everybody!  :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 05:54:39 PM by jbertonbounds »
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Offline mplsfitter539

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Re: Does God protect the written word from human error?
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2013, 06:23:11 PM »
Moderators I would like to thank you for having a discerning eye for the things we talk about here.
Shema O Israel, Yahweh our Elohim is Yahweh echad!!!