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Offline WhiteWings

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Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« on: August 30, 2008, 03:20:46 PM »
Isaiah 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.
Job 2:6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."

I only know the above two verses but I'm sure there are many more that point toward God creating and managing evil for some purpose. (more verses are welcome)

Did Judas really betray Jesus or was he just (unknowingly) following orders from God to fulfill a prophecy?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

martincisneros

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2008, 09:57:07 AM »
Did Judas really betray Jesus or was he just (unknowingly) following orders from God to fulfill a prophecy?
That's a sticky question: did the prophecy simply foretell Judas' betrayal, or did the prophecy move him around like a robot to do what he did?

Others that lean stronger towards a predeterminist theology may say that Judas had no choice in the matter, other than to betray Jesus.  But I personally believe that Judas could have avoided doing what he did, but that somehow the prophecy would have still been fulfilled -- even if someone else had wound up betraying Jesus.  I don't know that anything is set in stone in the Old Testament prophesying that it absolutely had to be Judas that betrayed him.  If Peter denied knowing Jesus 3 different times, it's conceivable that if Judas hadn't betrayed him in the way that he did that Peter might have taken his place in betraying Him.  Matthew was a tax collector and was accustomed to dealing in money, just as Judas was as a treasurer.  Who's to say that he couldn't have done it, with a little different twist of fate; if the situation had lined up a little differently?  All we really know much about is the condition of Judas' heart, Peter's heart, and John's heart during that final mile of the race to the Cross.  There's not much of an indication of where James and the other Apostles were at that week when it all happened.  The same prophecies that are applied to the hardening of the heart of Israel and their falling away from accepting Christ are the prophecies applied to Judas regarding his betrayal.  Perhaps none of the Apostles would have had to have betrayed Jesus for the Scriptures to have still been fulfilled.

Judas really did betray Jesus, though.  Jesus referred to having chosen the 12 and that one of them was a devil, though I don't think He meant a literal gargoyle or anything like that.  Then again....
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 10:01:35 AM by martincisneros »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2008, 10:34:31 AM »
Let me start this message with a disclaimer because some people always seem to pick out two words out of context...  :happy3: I'm not promoting satan....

Quote
Judas really did betray Jesus, though.  Jesus referred to having chosen the 12 and that one of them was a devil, though I don't think He meant a literal gargoyle or anything like that.  Then again....

The two verses in my first post are about God using satan for the dirty jobs. Surely God has His reasons that will turn out very well in the long run. I'n not sure how I have to see satan. As an average looking man with bad influence or just a someone planting bad thoughts in your head.

Adam was a good guy that loved God. But God gave satan control over Adam.
Job and God where close friends but God gave satan the power to rob Job of everything except his life.
And surely in the above cases God could have blocked every move of satan.

To me the (horrible) death of Jesus feels something that had to be done for the benefit of humanity.
God could also protect Jesus and let Him preach another 50 years until He dies from old age.
That's why I get some feeling Judas was (unwillingly) part of God's big chess game.
Perhaps God has send satan just like he done with Adam and Job.

« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 10:27:51 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline studier

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2008, 08:07:36 PM »
Quote
Others that lean stronger towards a predeterminist theology may say that Judas had no choice in the matter, other than to betray Jesus.  But I personally believe that Judas could have avoided doing what he did, but that somehow the prophecy would have still been fulfilled -- even if someone else had wound up betraying Jesus.

There is no proof for predeterminist theology, only lack of vision and an ineptitude to understand the complexity of the system God created in favor for a simple explanation. predeterminist theology is, "it was therefore that is why", a circular argument and fallacy (lie) to the core.

John 17:12
"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

Even by Jesus's very words the prophesy of the past, was witness to an event in the future. Jesus also knew that Peter would deny Him three times before the rooster crowed, He did not design Peter to deny Him three times. Jesus knew the future of his disciples. Neither God, or Jesus interfered with prophesy, and let one of the disciples, betray Jesus. He did this so that Scripture would be fulfilled. If predeterminist theology was correct, this prayer in John 17 is non-sense and Jesus lied.

Quote
That's why I get some feeling Judas was (unwillingly) part of God's big chess game.

He was absolutely willing.

Genesis 4:7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

Romans 6:16
Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

2 Peter 2:19
They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.

Do not make the mistake of regret of a choice, for being unwilling in making a choice. What Judas did was a willing choice, in which he thought he knew the consequence but didn't. The key here is not the will in making that choice, but the knowledge of that choice he willfully made.

Example analogy: Behind one of these three doors is a cash prize of $1,000. Is it door 1, door 2 or door 3? Suzie chose door 1 and won a garbage can lid, not the $1,000. Suzie did not want to choose the garbage can lid, she wanted to choose $1,000 so she might say, "That is not the choice I wanted, I wanted to chose the $1,000." but the choice was before her but in her lack of knowledge she willingly chose door 1 believing it to have the $1,000.

Judas thought his choices were the right choices, Judas saw the rewards for betraying Jesus was worth more than the risk. He truly believed that there was no risk since Jesus was the Son of God and would not be touched by the Romans or the Jews. So for him the choice to betray Jesus was not out of hatred but deception, he thought he was taking advantage of a win-win situation. He did not realize that his choice would lead to Jesus's death, and when that came he regretted his choice even so much as to give back the money they paid him to do it and hung himself. Judas made a choice, but the result of that choice was not what he thought would happen, but he did make that choice willingly but without knowledge.

Side-note: So think of that next time you see a situation which you can take advantage of, whether it is a little white lie, or something else in which you believe is a win-win situation if you have to sin to get the result you are thinking.

There is no condemnation in Scripture to Judas by his friends, even when they God chose Matthias, they had no ill-words for Judas only that by his choice he fell from his position which was still open to be filled. That means, there was always 12 disciples and Judas was one them.

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Acts 1:24-26
Having prayed, they said, `Thou, Lord, who art knowing the heart of all, shew which one thou didst choose of these two to receive the share of this ministration and apostleship, from which Judas, by transgression, did fall, to go on to his proper place;'

Hebrew 6:10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.

You are coming into a completely different Gospel White Wings, far different than what you were taught previously. One of life's choices, God's understanding, God's forgiveness, God's love for all mankind, even though they are ignorant.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 10:15:10 PM by SOtW »

Offline rosered

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2008, 08:58:10 PM »
 

 Hi there WW ,
  along the thoughts of SOTW,
  I saw this too as  .. predestined  portion or part on the Lords doings 
will  ,  to allow .. set up a course in time etc,,,,

  Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Offline rosered

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2008, 09:05:26 PM »
 
  I realize that   one sure verse that  makes  many fit in the  catagory of mammon
 
 and many fit this   in examples  Cain  did it first , Judas did  this for mammon /riches treasure  greedy gain ,  not always  literal money  , but that  mindset /widsom /knowledge and i so see it as BETRAYAL a sort of opposite of faith ..
  as Did simon the sorcerer in Acts  8   against the Holy Ghost ,
 
  james 3 in a nutshell   explains this to me  pretty much so ...
 
  Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.


 Jam 3:14  But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

 
  Jam 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish.
 
  For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work.
 
 and we know strife is as old as the hills ! nothing new under the sun .......
 strife, contention," is the expression of  "enmity,"
 
 cain was envy  to me ,  Im just a simple gal here   
 God bless .........rose
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 09:12:29 PM by rosered »

martincisneros

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2008, 10:08:04 PM »
There is no proof for predeterminist theology, only lack of vision and an ineptitude to understand the complexity of the system God created in favor for a simple explaination.  Predeterinist theology is, "it was therefore that is why", a circular argument and fallacy (lie) to the core.
There's a phrase that's constantly said in the U.S. whenever tragedy or the unexpected happens that totally drives me up the wall.  It's one of my all-time pet peeves and one of the quickest ways to make me absolutely furious.  I really hope this isn't said in other English speaking countries.  But whenever calamity happens in the U.S. a lot of people say this, as though it were any kind of wisdom when it's not.  It shows the deepest lack of wisdom when people say "Well, everything happens for a reason." which gets back to this predeterminist idea when in reality people were either reaping bad seed they'd sown or that was sown for them, or for whatever other reasons the devil had access and they didn't have what it took to cast him out and bring the power of the Holy Spirit on the scene to redeem and reclaim the situation.  People get beaten at the game of life and then try to say that God was somehow responsible with "Well, you know that everything happens for a reason!"  I don't see how that statement isn't the equivalent of taking God's Name in vain with speaking that vanity in His Name.  It's a perversion of the Scripture in Romans 8 about all things working together for those that love God and all things work together for those who are called according to His purposes.  Because there's nowhere in that chapter where the works of the devil were being cited as working together for anyone's good.  The passage was talking about the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and our groans together with the Holy Spirit that are a part of lifting our lives out of the dung (as the KJV puts it in the Psalms).  It was talking about the things of God working together for the good of those who love God and also working together for the good of those who are called according to His purposes in Christ.  And with all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit working together for our good, then we know that nothing can ever separate us from the love of God that's in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jesus said that the thief cometh not but for to steal, kill, and to destroy, but I am come that they might have life and have it more abundantly.  And St. Paul said on another occasion that he tried again and again to make a return visit to one of the churches but Satan hindered him.  I wonder why neither of them said on those occasions that "Well, all things happen for a reason" if that were honestly the intent of the Scriptures.  But Jesus said that there's a devil on the loose that's self-employed to steal, kill, and to destroy.  And St. Paul said that Satan was hindering his ministry at one point, until he blasted through that with the grace of God and the Name of Jesus on his lips because God's grace was sufficient rather than the insufficiency that most Christians try to read into St. Paul's writings as though God had told him His grace was insufficient and that he'd have to keep that devil for two more weeks while he learned something from it.  No Satan was trying to hinder and the only four things that he has to work with are blinding people, persecution against the truth, causing someone to get overly preoccupied with the things of this life, and trying to dry up the funds to cut off a minister's engine and leave him dead in the water with no possible way to get anything done.  But St. Paul knew the grace of his Lord Jesus Christ and just blasted through all of that through tongues and interpretation of tongues, fasting, using the Bread and Cup, prayers of faith and of agreement, and using the Name of Jesus and all of the authority in heaven and on earth that's ours through that Name.

None of my 20th and 21st century UR books say this, but my 17th, 18th, and 19th century ones will claim that there's a question mark in the Greek text as to whether or not Judas actually hung himself or whether he was either choked with grief or with the pandamonium that was happening that night with the crowds.  I'd have to look into which of the earlier UR books that I have that bring this up, but I know for certain that Elhanan Winchester and Thomas Whittemore bring up this question as to whether or not Judas' death was a suicide, him grieving to death, or being choked by the insanity of the crowd in the streets that night.  I've never seen any of the later 19th century, 20th century, or 21st century authors bring this up.  Was that question mark every conclusively resolved with either the discovery of older New Testament manuscripts or better scholarship into the Greek of the first century??

Offline studier

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2008, 10:20:58 PM »
Quote
None of my 20th and 21st century UR books say this, but my 17th, 18th, and 19th century ones will claim that there's a question mark in the Greek text as to whether or not Judas actually hung himself or whether he was either choked with grief or with the pandamonium that was happening that night with the crowds.  I'd have to look into which of the earlier UR books that I have that bring this up, but I know for certain that Elhanan Winchester and Thomas Whittemore bring up this question as to whether or not Judas' death was a suicide, him grieving to death, or being choked by the insanity of the crowd in the streets that night.  I've never seen any of the later 19th century, 20th century, or 21st century authors bring this up.  Was that question mark every conclusively resolved with either the discovery of older New Testament manuscripts or better scholarship into the Greek of the first century??

I believe Scripture says, Judas hung himself, and it was the High Priest who fell fore long in the field bought with blood money.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 10:22:51 PM by SOtW »

Offline firstborn888

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2008, 01:30:49 PM »
Do we not owe a great debt of gratitude to Judas Iscariot?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2008, 01:44:36 PM »
Do we not owe a great debt of gratitude to Judas Iscariot?

That's a trick question....

Do we own a great debt to Jesus?
Yes!
But that doesn't mean I liked Him to die in such an horrible way!
Should we also be thankful to the Romans that tortured Him?

It all turns out right for me. But still I wish that Jesus/Judas/... could have helped us is a less painful way.
How can I possibly be happy that Jesus was tortured..... :sigh:
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 06:01:59 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2008, 03:08:38 PM »

 
  Hi WW   Jesus/ salvation symbolic of Spiritual power  had to die in a way outwardly at the hands of sinners [men]  , this open show was  to  display the POWER &  GLORY  OF GOD
  to Raise Him from the dead  ...Col 2   the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the World
I do believe Judas /symbolic of betrayal   suffered inwardly   soul/spirit  separation  being  troubled and needing/desiring  forgiveness .. 
 literal of a  truth [once for all time ]  and  Spiritual Truth   perpetual [continuing or enduring forever; everlasting.] being  over  and over  for all times  when we become spiritaully awakened  from sleep/death   and it applies to us  in an order /sequence 

  to me the flesh suffers when the Spirit /inward man is recieving growth/gain
  and the Spiritual man suffers  when the flesh is  recieving gain/ growth
    the Lord  said what would a man exchange for his soul
 
  what good is it/ profits anyone  to gain the whole world and loose your soul ?
  the soul is where   the seat of emotion  is , where we  feel / sadness . fear  , anger   joy , peace , love etc..   Adam was a  living soul first
  and  second  made / become  a Life giving/ quickening  Spirit
 
  to me salvation is secure when you  are at peace  the 2  rivals  men of the heart    become one in Jesus Christ = the WORD /SON OF GOD
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
  Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
 
  Having peace between  your soul/and Spirit are  essential in  true salvation  of Jesus Christ  /WORD OF GOD 
 or how else can you obtain it ?
 
  I sure hope this will help some how , this helped me to understand  some what better , because I didnt know what the soul, is [was]  will become
 
 the soul is described as  the  "breath of life"  (a) the natural life of the body, (b) the immaterial, invisible part of man
 
(c) the disembodied (or "unclothed" or "naked,"(d) the seat of personality
 (e) the seat of the sentient element in man, that by which he perceives, reflects, feels, desires,(f) the seat of will and purpose(g) the seat of appetite,  (h) persons, individuals, of dead bodies, Num 6:6, lit., "dead soul;" and of animals, Lev 24:18, lit., "soul for soul;" (i) the equivalent of the personal pronoun, used for emphasis and effect:, 1st person,"us"  ("me"); 2nd person  "self" (j) an animate creature, human or other, (k) "the inward man," the seat of the new life, Luk 21:19 (cp. Mat 10:39); 1Pe 2:11; 3Jo 1:2. "With (j) compare a-psuchos, "soulless, inanimate," 1Cr 14:7. "With (f) compare di-psuchos, "two-souled," Jam 1:8; 4:8; oligo-psuchos, "feeble-souled," 1Th 5:14; iso-psuchos, "like-souled," Phl 2:20; sum-psuchos, "joint-souled" (with one accord"),
 
  Phl 2:2. "The language of Hbr 4:12 suggests the extreme difficulty of distinguishing between the soul and the spirit, alike in their nature and in their activities. Generally speaking the spirit is the higher, the soul the lower element. The spirit may be recognized as the life principle bestowed on man by God, the soul as the resulting life constituted in the individual, the body being the material organism animated by soul and spirit. ...
 
"Body and soul are the constituents of the man according to Mat 6:25; 10:28; Luk 12:20; Act 20:10; body and spirit according to Luk 8:55; 1Cr 5:3; 7:34; Jam 2:26. In Mat 26:38 the emotions are associated with the soul,
 
in Jhn 13:21 with the spirit; cp. also Psa 42:11 with 1Ki 21:5. In Psa 35:9 the soul rejoices in God, in Luk 1:47 the spirit. "Apparently, then, the relationships may be thus summed up 'Soma, body, and pneuma, spirit, may be separated, pneuma and psuche, soul, can only be distinguished' (Cremer)."*
 
  this is the place that Paul describes at me in Eph 2 as Jesus   His Spirit within us becoming  Head / ruler and  Strong man of the house  and our souls being "Joined " to Him/seed WORD   the Christ /"annoited" within our hearts   growing in Truth and grace
 
  I so Love romans 8  :HeartThrob:all of it 
  note  that"' both "the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are ALIVE  within  working  ? to me the is the HOLY GHOST/SPIRIT Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham/ Symbolic of faith / trust  and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
 
  those without Abrahams seed/word  from God  do KILL the spiritual man spiritally speaking   here Jesus  testimony Witness proves it  to me 
Jhn 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you

 speaking of their hearts /minds , souls seat of desire  appetites

 and  also  seeing Here its the WORD OF GOD ANNOITED in you being ALIVE  forever more cannot die any longer  first resurrection/Life ..
 second death does no  harm that others  can pluck you out of the Hand/power  of God ........
 
 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth
  and abideth for ever.


 
 Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.    

  the flesh and spirit are "emnity " opposing  forces  to me  , earthly /lower  verses heavenly / higher    Air / Breath Spirit
 

 I hope this was clear enough , I struggle with    speech / tongues
of men and angels  all the time
 
 
   peace in Jesus  rose

Offline studier

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2008, 04:50:19 PM »
Do we not owe a great debt of gratitude to Judas Iscariot?

Why? Judas didn't know what he was doing, whether he meant to have Jesus killed or not. It was Jesus who did not interfere with Judas's choice to betray Him so that Scripture would be fulfilled. Once again, it comes down to Jesus in who we owe a debt of gratitude.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 04:59:03 PM by SOtW »

Offline rosered

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2008, 07:07:47 PM »
Do we not owe a great debt of gratitude to Judas Iscariot?

Why? Judas didn't know what he was doing, whether he meant to have Jesus killed or not. It was Jesus who did not interfere with Judas's choice to betray Him so that Scripture would be fulfilled. Once again, it comes down to Jesus in who we owe a debt of gratitude.


  Yes it is TRUE .. thank you  Jesus Christ
 
  what Jesus says here helps me
 
 
 Mat 26:24  The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born

  my question , is Jesus speaking of here    Judas  literal  physical birth or is it   Judas  spiritual birth , of   being born again ?
 I can see it  meaning both by   certain Scriptures 
 
 this is helping me to look  into things  more carfully  for sure! 
 peace......... rr

Offline studier

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2008, 08:29:14 PM »
Do we not owe a great debt of gratitude to Judas Iscariot?

Why? Judas didn't know what he was doing, whether he meant to have Jesus killed or not. It was Jesus who did not interfere with Judas's choice to betray Him so that Scripture would be fulfilled. Once again, it comes down to Jesus in who we owe a debt of gratitude.


  Yes it is TRUE .. thank you  Jesus Christ
 
  what Jesus says here helps me
 
 
 Mat 26:24  The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born

  my question , is Jesus speaking of here    Judas  literal  physical birth or is it   Judas  spiritual birth , of   being born again ?
 I can see it  meaning both by   certain Scriptures 
 
 this is helping me to look  into things  more carfully  for sure! 
 peace......... rr


It is called figure of speech, they had lots of it, like we do today. It was communicating the regret Judas would have in that choice, and the fact his name is more popular for betrayer than Brutus.

Offline rosered

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2008, 08:58:03 PM »
Do we not owe a great debt of gratitude to Judas Iscariot?

Why? Judas didn't know what he was doing, whether he meant to have Jesus killed or not. It was Jesus who did not interfere with Judas's choice to betray Him so that Scripture would be fulfilled. Once again, it comes down to Jesus in who we owe a debt of gratitude.


  Yes it is TRUE .. thank you  Jesus Christ
 
  what Jesus says here helps me
 
 
 Mat 26:24  The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born

  my question , is Jesus speaking of here    Judas  literal  physical birth or is it   Judas  spiritual birth , of   being born again ?
 I can see it  meaning both by   certain Scriptures 
 
 this is helping me to look  into things  more carfully  for sure! 
 peace......... rr


It is called figure of speech, they had lots of it, like we do today. It was communicating the regret Judas would have in that choice, and the fact his name is more popular for betrayer than Brutus.

 Hi SOTW,
 Yes the figure of speech , misery for sure ,
 but you seem to have missed my point bro ,
   do you think Judas was born again ?  to regret in his /soul spirit  and suffer for it ?   I sure do know he did physically in acts 1 ;  16Brethren, he said, it was necessary that the Scripture be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit foretold by the lips of David, about Judas who acted as guide to those who arrested Jesus.

    17For he was counted among us and received [by divine allotment] his portion in this ministry.

    18Now this man obtained a piece of land with the [money paid him as a] reward for his treachery and wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle [of his body] and all his intestines poured forth.

    19And all the residents of Jerusalem became acquainted with the facts, so that they called the piece of land in their own dialect--Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.

    20For in the book of Psalms it is written, Let his place of residence become deserted and gloomy, and let there be no one to live in it; and [again], Let another take his position or overseership

and as it says  was hanged on the tree , this figure of speech , means to be cursed  correct ? 
 
 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
 
 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What [is that] to us? see thou [to that].
 
 Mat 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
 
   thanks for the reply   , very much so  :)
  peace rr  aka rosered .....

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2008, 01:43:34 AM »
I have always considered the story of Judas one of the saddest stories in the Bible, painfully sad not only for Judas, but for Jesus, too.

What could be worse?  Betrayed in the house of my friends.

Betrayal always comes from those we love and trust,-- this, too, Jesus suffered.

See, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners..

We have all experienced betrayal, and nothing is more painful.

Offline rosered

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2008, 02:12:54 AM »

 
 It is Molly , I have also mourned   when I  started reading  this more intently  between Judas and Jesus ......
 and yes
 betrayal is a hard  lesson, , and forgiveness   is  so cleansing
 
    I do believe  Judas  felt  guilt and shame  for  betraying  Jesus
 

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2008, 02:14:38 PM »
I'm not sure the story of Jesus and Judas is the saddest story.
Jesus was (is) a grown up intelligent man that knows what was going on.
He made certain choices (for a reason)

But what about the flood? Plenty of sinners got killed. But also young children that didn't do anything bad in their short lives :sigh:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Akira Takahashi

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2008, 04:58:22 AM »
First of all, I'd like to add to/reply to what WhiteWings wrote.  I certainly do think that there have been many times much more tragic than the Jesus/Judas story.

But to answer the original poster, I think that Judas did betray Jesus, but I'd like to add that I do not believe he did this out of a hatred for Jesus.  I think he did it in a way to try and force Jesus into action.

Allow me to explain.  I believe that Judas, like many Jews at the time, interpretted the coming of the messia as a deliveration from the current Roman occupation.  Jesus wasn't keen on overthrowing the current human kingdom (and we all know what happened to Rome's power anyway), and Judas wanted to test him perhaps, or maybe force him into a situation that he would act against Ceasar.

Judas is one of the most murky characters in the Bible.  We aren't given many (pleasing) glimpses of him, and I always wondered of his fate.  I always wondered, "Would God really punish him forever for doing His will?"  Judas also seemed quite upset with his actions after he had already done them.

Offline rosered

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2008, 10:08:51 PM »

 
 Judas / Jude, same as Judah "the praise of the Lord; confession"
 
  a thief kleptēs
 1) an embezzler, pilferer

a) the name is transferred to false teachers, who do not care to instruct men, but abuse their confidence for their own gain


 Jhn 12:4  Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], which should betray him, Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

Jhn 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein
 
  thief on the cross one on the left the other on the right
  and Jesus in   the midst ..
 
 peace  rose
 

Offline AJ

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Re: Did Judas really betray Jesus?
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2008, 05:18:12 AM »
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How many were crucified with Jesus? (2 or 4)- By Kenn McDermott

------------------------

A majority of Christians have been taught that our Lord Jesus Christ was crucified along with two others, and that his cross was in between the other two. We have seen many displays, pictures, monuments, bumper stickers, crosses along the roadside, crosses in churchyards, and the like - all showing three crosses.

This fascinating study clearly demonstrates how God has protected His Word through the centuries and how the truth is still available to those who hunger and thirst after it.

We are exhorted by God to study His Word and to “rightly divide” it. Although some things may be difficult to understand, this particular topic and the supporting verses are quite clear and easily understood.

If you can grasp what is presented here, paying close attention to detail and staying your mind on the fundamental truths we will cover, you will, of necessity, find yourself in a quandary: do you continue to believe what you have been taught or do you change your mind to bring your belief into alignment and harmony with God's Word?

I pray that you will consider the material presented here, and that you will ask God to help you as you study His wonderful, matchless Word. God wills not only that all men be saved, but also that they also come unto a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4).

A major reason for so much confusion regarding the "others" crucified with Jesus is that men have interpreted the Word of God to suit themselves, their theology, and their traditions.

Instead of going to God's Word and studying it for ourselves to determine if what we are being told is correct, we too often choose to believe men and women with degrees from Bible colleges and seminaries. We say that hundreds of years of tradition can't be wrong, but I hope to show you differently here.

Jesus Christ challenged the religious traditions of his time, as per the following verses:

Matthew 15:1-3 (KJV)
(1) Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
(2) Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
(3) But he [Jesus] answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

This identifies the root of the problem: a lack of real faith in the integrity of the Word of God. Such faith leads to the indispensable conviction that the Word cannot contradict itself.
When one is rooted and grounded in that premise, he has a basis from which to work out what seem to be apparent contradictions, of which there are many in the Bible.

When it comes to the subject of the others crucified with Jesus, the key is to realize that, as with any author, one part of the narrative may not tell everything about a particular incident.

At another place, the author may choose to add more information. Because we know that God cannot contradict Himself, if what He tells us in Matthew is different than what he tells us in Luke about the same event, we know that we must put the two together to get the whole picture. You could call this principle “narrative development.”

Before we begin our study of the four crucified with Jesus, let's discuss the problems created by traditional teachings.

The two thieves and the two malefactors described in God's Word have, by tradition and the ignorance of Scripture on the part of medieval painters, been made to be the same.

In other words, only two were crucified with Jesus. But if we let this stand, we have a major discrepancy in the Word of God. Matthew 27:38 (and Mark 15:27) clearly state that there were "two thieves," while Luke 23:32 says "two malefactors."

Matthew 27:38
Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

Luke 23:32
And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.

Furthermore, both, thieves (or robbers) reviled Jesus, but only one of the malefactors "railed on him," while the other malefactor defended Jesus.

Matthew 27:44
The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Luke 23:39 and 40
(39) And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
(40) But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

Another discrepancy created by traditional teaching is regarding the timing of the crucifixion of the two malefactors who were "led with him to be put to death" and the timing of the crucifixion of the two thieves.

Luke 23:32 and 33
(32) And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.
(33) And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

The two malefactors were crucified at the same time Jesus was. Yet, Matthew 27 says that after a number of things happened at Calvary, two thieves [robbers] were crucified with him.

Matthew 27:33 – 38
(33) And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull,
(34) They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.
(35) And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
(36) And sitting down they watched him there;
(37) And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
(3 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

If all of this is synonymous and dealing with only two individuals, then words have no meaning and language is useless for the purpose of communication.

The Bible then becomes just another book written by men, full of errors and misstatements and not what the Word says of itself in 2 Peter 1:21, namely, "...holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

The King James Version says "two thieves;" the Greek words are duo lestai of which duo is “two,” lestai is “robbers.”

The Greeks used an entirely different word for “thieves,” kleptes, but this distinction is obscured in the KJV. Duo lestai, two robbers, were crucified with Jesus after an interim of time.

Luke tells us that two malefactors (duo kakourgoi) went with Jesus when he was led forth from Pilate's Hall and were crucified at the same time Jesus was crucified.

Remember that Matthew and Mark stated that there were two robbers (duo lestai) crucified with him after the garments had been parted and the soldiers had sat down and were watching what was going on.

Matthew and Mark record that both “robbers” reviled Christ. Luke has only one reviling Christ, and he is called a “malefactor.”

There is an easy way to understand the Word of God: read it carefully and think about it. Instead of believing the picture of three crosses we have been conditioned to, we must believe what God tells us in His Word.

Two malefactors were crucified with Jesus when he was crucified, and two robbers were later crucified with him after his garments were parted, etc.

Thus, one malefactor and one robber were on either side of Jesus. For the record, every robber is a malefactor (evil-doer), but not every malefactor (evil-doer) is a robber.

From reading Matthew, Mark, and Luke we know there were four others crucified with Jesus. So now we go to the Gospel of John, which is not concerned about the time element when describing the crucifixion account. It does not provide the when, but instead gives us the where.

John 19:17 and 18
(17) And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
(1 where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

Whoa! That verse says there were only two crucified with Jesus, and now we have an apparent contradiction.

So what do we do? Well, because we cannot resolve it from what we can read in English, we need a tool to be able to dig beneath the English “surface” of Scripture into the Greek below.

If you have an interlinear translation of the Stephens Greek Text, from which the KJV was translated, you can check the following for yourself, but to assist you we are including a scanned image from The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, by George Ricker Berry, page 303:






Please note that immediately above the word "one," which is in brackets, there is no corresponding Greek word.

This indicates that the translators added the word "one."
In the interlinear translation, John 19:18 reads "where him they crucified and with him others two on this side and on that side [one] and in the middle Jesus."

The word "one" appears in the English, but there is no corresponding Greek word. To indicate that the translators added the word "one," they put it in brackets.

If the word "one" is not in the critical Greek texts, why is it in the KJV? Because by 1611 the Western world had been so indoctrinated by paintings showing Jesus on the center cross and one evil-doer on either side of him that when the translators came to this particular verse, they inserted the word "one."

By taking out the added word "one," we do not touch the original, God-breathed Word, which then reads as follows:

John 19:18
Where they crucified him, and two others with him on either side, and Jesus in the midst.

One more point of logic is relevant, based in the following verses:

John 19:32 and 33
(32) Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
(33) But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

When we let the Word of God speak with its inherent and inerrant accuracy, we see that the soldiers came and broke the legs of the two men on one side of Jesus.

Then they came to Jesus next in line and found him dead already.
As Jesus is the focal person, the Word does not mention the last two men still in line, but certainly the soldiers continued on and broke their legs if necessary.

Here is a graphical representation of the five crosses to help you replace the traditional mind picture with the biblical one:





The word "other" in John 19:32 ("and of the other which was crucified with him") is another key to further substantiate that four men were crucified with Jesus.

In the Bible, there are two Greek words translated "other." One is heteros and the other is allos, and their usage is for two different situations.

In John 19:32, allos is used because more than two may be involved. The two malefactors and the two thieves (robbers) make four.

Therefore, the soldiers broke the legs of the first and of the other (allos) of the four involved.

In Luke 23:32, the English word "other" is also used: “And there were also two other [heteros], malefactors, led with him to be put to death.”

The word for "other" in this verse is not allos, but heteros because there were only two involved.
This is the remarkable accuracy of God's Word.

Two malefactors were led with Jesus and crucified with him; later, after they had parted his garments, cast lots, sat down for a while, they put up an accusation, and finally, after they had done all of that, they brought the two robbers and crucified them.

Two plus two makes four. When the soldiers came, they broke the legs of the first and of the other (the allos, of more than two), but when they came to Jesus they found that he was dead already.

This is significant because the prophets of old had prophesied of the Savior that none of his bones would be broken. The Passover lamb was not to have any broken bones, and Jesus was the Passover lamb that year (Ex. 12:46; Num. 9:12; Ps. 34:20).

So, who do we believe—the doctrines and traditions of men or God and His rightly divided Word, which is truth?

The choice is yours, because God will never violate your free will. He gently and lovingly invites you to consider the truth of His Word, but He will never make up your mind for you.

This study of the five crucified can be used as a starting point because it clearly shows how to work God's Word from the inside to the outside instead of the traditional way, which is from the outside to the inside.

Once you grasp that concept, you can begin a journey into the Bible that will answer many, many questions for you and help you see why God magnified His Word above His name. In other words, He underwrote it.

Psalms 138:2
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
"Pretty soon, everybody will get what they deserve, which is ..."Salvation"..."Reconciliation"..."Restitution"..."Restoration"..."Immortality"... and "Incorruption" --- now ain't that the coolest thing?