Author Topic: Did Jesus go to heaven?  (Read 3067 times)

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Offline Taffy

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2008, 12:40:04 AM »
Quote
On the one hand I claim to have a re NEWED mind, while at the same time, I embrace yesterday's bread.


Not up to posting much now Nat....still in much discomfort etc from last week..but I keep a lurking... :icon_flower:


na...that yestedays bread ( food)Tis DUNG...

that sword is JUDGMENT bro..dividing the OLD man from THE NEW...AMEN!

Revelation is SYMBOLIC....I care NOT what other Say as It speaks of Him...and HIS work of redemption...AMEN there too bro.... :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

theres not just   you or I but others on this board who thinks likewise. and not just at this board either...

But I have NO DESIRE to CHEW IT with those who see things differently...

Later Matye




« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 01:42:13 AM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2008, 01:08:37 AM »
Quote from: NATHAN
his hair is going to me white, course and curly . . .cuz that's what sheep's wool looks like . . .

I just 'saw' this the other day.  It's nice to hear you say it, too.


God has many ways to communicate to us--starting in the natural and moving to metaphor, simile, the more spiritual aspects of language, and, finally, to the spiritual revelation itself.



13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

 14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

 15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.


--Rev 1



9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

 10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

--Daniel 7





 For Mine..Hairs are Likened to  THOUGHTS ....HIS HAIR was  WHITE( pure) as SNOW....That which IS GOOD withoUt CORRUPTION.

Mat 28:3  His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

..there are TWO types of Thoughts...the THOUGHTS of those WHO SLEEP in the NIGHT(old c)..MEN sleep IN THE DARKNESS of NIGHT( old c)

Job 4:13 In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men

Psa 94:11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they [are] vanity

the thoughts of the WICKED are that of the OLD MAN..

Pro 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked [are] an abomination to the LORD: but [the words] of the pure [are] pleasant words

Psa 94:11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they [are] vanity.

Pro 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked [are] an abomination to the LORD: but [the words] of the pure [are] pleasant words.

 ..tis the yhoughts OF THE RIGHTEOUS( born of HIM) which are PURE

Pro 12:5 The thoughts of the righteous [are] right: [but] the counsels of the wicked [are] deceit.

MAYBE A ..AH HA moment?

 
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Luk 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

In TRUTH Indeed HIS THOUGHTS will become OUR Thoughts...for we SHARE THE SAME MIND of HE who was sent...,
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 01:24:36 AM by Taffy »
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

laren

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2008, 02:05:50 AM »
Quote from: NATHAN
his hair is going to me white, course and curly . . .cuz that's what sheep's wool looks like . . .

I just 'saw' this the other day.  It's nice to hear you say it, too.


God has many ways to communicate to us--starting in the natural and moving to metaphor, simile, the more spiritual aspects of language, and, finally, to the spiritual revelation itself.



13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

 14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

 15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.


--Rev 1



9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

 10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

--Daniel 7





 For Mine..Hairs are Likened to  THOUGHTS ....HIS HAIR was  WHITE( pure) as SNOW....That which IS GOOD withoUt CORRUPTION.

Mat 28:3  His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:

..there are TWO types of Thoughts...the THOUGHTS of those WHO SLEEP in the NIGHT(old c)..MEN sleep IN THE DARKNESS of NIGHT( old c)

Job 4:13 In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men

Psa 94:11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they [are] vanity

the thoughts of the WICKED are that of the OLD MAN..

Pro 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked [are] an abomination to the LORD: but [the words] of the pure [are] pleasant words

Psa 94:11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they [are] vanity.

Pro 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked [are] an abomination to the LORD: but [the words] of the pure [are] pleasant words.

 ..tis the yhoughts OF THE RIGHTEOUS( born of HIM) which are PURE

Pro 12:5 The thoughts of the righteous [are] right: [but] the counsels of the wicked [are] deceit.

MAYBE A ..AH HA moment?

 
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Luk 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

In TRUTH Indeed HIS THOUGHTS will become OUR Thoughts...for we SHARE THE SAME MIND of HE who was sent...,

 :bigGrin: :bigGrin:

good post Taffy.

got your pm, just haven't had time to respond.  Glad to see you up and posting some.  you've been in my thoughts   :grin:

Roy Monis

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2008, 12:45:00 PM »
Hi! Nathan

Quote
The armies in verse 14, to me, are the same as the cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12 and they are the same as the cloud Jesus came in . . . they are us.  Jude speaks of religious men as clouds without water.  Hebrews 11 and the first part of 12 goes into elaborate detail who the cloud of witnesses are that envelope us.

Do I read you correctly? Are you saying that the cloud of witnesses are the armies that accompany Jesus at His coming? (Rev.19:14).

This would mean that a resurrection has already taken place and that when you die you go to heaven, which is what Babylon believes, the only difference being that they believe in an immortal soul from birth.

If so how do you account for; 

13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man." (Jn.3:13)

And

"29  "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day."   (Acts.2:29).

And

"16  who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
  (1Tim.6:16).

Peace!

Roy   UK
 



Roy Monis

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2008, 12:53:44 PM »
Hi! Nathan

Quote
his hair is going to me white, course and curly . . .cuz that's what sheep's wool looks like . . .

White, yes! But where does it say coarse and curly? You're only assuming this I presume because that's how sheep's wool is.

Peace!

Roy   UK

Offline firstborn888

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2008, 01:22:03 PM »
Hi! Nathan

Quote
his hair is going to me white, course and curly . . .cuz that's what sheep's wool looks like . . .

White, yes! But where does it say coarse and curly? You're only assuming this I presume because that's how sheep's wool is.

Peace!

Roy   UK

I'm not going to even read the first page of this thread to see how it got here :sigh:

Roy Monis

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2008, 01:26:42 PM »
Hi! Taff

How's it going bro? Not too good by your post but remember our prayers are constantly with you, and you can never underestimate the power of prayer.


Now to your post.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. (Rev.1:1).

Yesterday's bread "Dung!"  Yuk!   No desire to chew on it, neither do I.
The Sword Judgment Yep!  Dividing separating the two.
Signified means symbolic    Yep!   Full marks.

Now take it easy and get yourself back to normal.

Love to self and family.

Peace!     Specially for you.



Roy

Roy Monis

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2008, 01:46:32 PM »
Hi! Brother firstborn888

You have the answer brother, "Don't read it"    :Oops: :Oops: :Oops: :Oops:
Peace!

Roy   UK

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2008, 09:26:42 PM »
Hi! Nathan

Quote
his hair is going to me white, course and curly . . .cuz that's what sheep's wool looks like . . .

White, yes! But where does it say coarse and curly? You're only assuming this I presume because that's how sheep's wool is.

Peace!

Roy   UK

I'm not going to even read the first page of this thread to see how it got here :sigh:

....the hair of his head like the pure wool...
--Daniel 7


Main Entry: wool
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'wul
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English wolle, from Old English wull; akin to Old High German wolla wool, Latin vellus fleece, lana wool
1 : the soft wavy or curly hypertrophied undercoat of various hairy mammals and especially the sheep made up of a matrix of keratin fibers and covered with minute scales

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2008, 09:29:21 PM »
Quote from: Taffy
For Mine..Hairs are Likened to  THOUGHTS

Hi Taffy, Can you show me scripture for this?  Not disagreeing, just would like to see it.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2008, 12:56:26 AM »
Hi! Nathan

Quote
The armies in verse 14, to me, are the same as the cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12 and they are the same as the cloud Jesus came in . . . they are us.  Jude speaks of religious men as clouds without water.  Hebrews 11 and the first part of 12 goes into elaborate detail who the cloud of witnesses are that envelope us.

Do I read you correctly? Are you saying that the cloud of witnesses are the armies that accompany Jesus at His coming? (Rev.19:14).

This would mean that a resurrection has already taken place and that when you die you go to heaven, which is what Babylon believes, the only difference being that they believe in an immortal soul from birth.

If so how do you account for; 

13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man." (Jn.3:13)


"29  "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day."   (Acts.2:29).

And

"16  who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
  (1Tim.6:16).

Peace!

Roy   UK
 




Ecclesiastes 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

2 Corinthians 5
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

The biggest one for me is as I mentioned, it's in Hebrews 12.  In Hebrews 11 he goes into all of the great men of God who'd passed on long ago and lists many of them by name, then in the opening of Hebrews 12, he states that this great "cloud" of witnesses are among us as well.  This is where my understanding of dimensions comes into play.  Heaven is all around you . ..it's just in a spiritual realm where your eyes can't see because your eyes, and mine, are physical eyes and not natural.  Heaven is not some far off place, it's not even a "place" with space and time, it's merely a dimension where God does live . .this is why it's so easy to see that Jesus and God are one.  God's realm encompasses our realm . . .and when Jesus manifested in ours, he was still in God's also.  They were never separated when Jesus appeared here, God was always enveloping Jesus and Jesus was always in God.

It's the same with us . .we are always encompassed by those who've gone on before us.  The spirit realm and heaven is the same dimension.  So yeah, I do believe when you die, your soul does not remain in the physical world as your body does.

Your quote on David . . .he wasn't saying his spirit is still in the tomb, he is just simply stating his body is in the tomb . .David is no different than Abraham who was mentioned in Hebrews 11 . .he's in the cloud that encompasses us.

Your passage in 1 Timothy is simply saying that no man "my man is my carnality . .my natural reasoning, my ego" can enter into the spiritual realm.  That's the same thing as saying your mind is at enmity with God and doesn't understand the things of God because it doesn't have the capacity to.

Perhaps you could explain who it is that Hebrews states that is the cloud of witnesses???

laren

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2008, 01:39:44 AM »
Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

laren

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2008, 01:41:51 AM »
Here is some thoughts on clouds, and along the lines of Nathan's post re: cloud of witness, and this verse

1Co 6:2  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?



God's "coming on the clouds of heaven" is often a symbolic way of speaking of judgement


Isaiah 19:1 (NKJV) The burden against Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, And will come into Egypt; The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.

Nahum 1:3 (NKJV) The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The LORD has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet.

Mark 14:62 (NKJV) Jesus said, "I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."


Revelation 1:7 (NKJV) Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 24:31 (NKJV) "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Numbers 10:2 (NKJV) "Make two silver trumpets for yourself; you shall make them of hammered work; you shall use them for calling the congregation and for directing the movement of the camps.

Leviticus 25:9 (NKJV) 'Then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement you shall make the trumpet to sound throughout all your land.

Isaiah 27:12-13 (NKJV) And it shall come to pass in that day That the LORD will thresh, From the channel of the River to the Brook of Egypt; And you will be gathered one by one, O you children of Israel. 13 So it shall be in that day: The great trumpet will be blown; They will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria, And they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt, And shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Isaiah 11:1-5 (NKJV) There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. 3 His delight is in the fear of the LORD, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears; 4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist.

11 It shall come to pass in that day That the LORD shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea. 12 He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (NKJV) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed; 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Daniel 12:1-2 (NKJV) "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time.  And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:7 (NKJV) Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (NKJV) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven (see Exodus 34:5) with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first (resurrection). 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Luke 21:27-28 (NKJV) "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

Hebrews 9:24-28 (NKJV) For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another; 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

"Whosoever lives and believes in me will never die."
 

Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 01:43:35 AM by laren »

laren

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2008, 01:56:57 AM »
Mat 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.


Mat 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Act 3:21  Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Act 3:24  Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

Act 10:43  To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Rom 1:2  (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the Holy Scriptures,)

Rom 3:21  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

1Th 2:15  Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Heb 1:1  God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Heb 11:32  And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthah; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

Heb 12:1  Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



Roy Monis

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2008, 02:32:57 PM »
Hi! Brother Nathan

Please don't misunderstand my post, I am not critiquing it but simply asking you if the resurrection had already taken place? If the cloud of witnesses are the dead of ancient times, then they are presently in heaven, that is, in the air that envelops us. Who then are the elect that will be gathered from the four corners of the earth when He comes? "31  "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."  (Matt.23:31)

In Hebrews Paul is talking about those who died from Adam to date, "They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect." (Heb.11:37-40). None were made perfect, so none could have entered heaven to come as the cloud of witnesses with the Lord.

And you haven't answered my question regarding Jesus' statement; ""No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man." (Jn.3:13). So how do these clouds of witnesses, if they are the dead, come to be where they are when Jesus claims to be the only one to have reentered? How can He claim to be the First Fruits of the dead if He has already been beaten to it by the cloud of witnesses?

Nevertheless your post and that of Laren are very interesting and I'll be printing them out and reading up on them in prayer and will get back to both of you in the near future. In the meantime maybe you will clarify the above questions.

Nathan, to keep the conversation going smoothly please answer the questions before wandering off on to something that is way off topic.

Thank you brother 

Peace!

Roy   UK

laren

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2008, 04:34:21 PM »
If my great great grandpa, great grandpa, grandpa, and father, who all represented or pointed to a great Truth, were slaughtered by extremists who refused to see the truth;

and years later, I who represented the same truth; and was appointed to go and judge and destroy the extremists; I would be bringing my "grandpa etc" along with me; "in spirt and truth".  In other words everything they remained faithful and pointed to, would be validated. 

perhaps the cloud of witness, is a representation "in spirit" rather than they actually accompanied  in "resurrected bodies"??

Mat 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Offline rosered

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2008, 06:31:06 PM »


  Hi Laren , I believe it is the SPIRIT OF GOD & Christ  in them  .. :HeartThrob:Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
 
  Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
 
    the Cross of Christ Is a very significant   [Point ] of turning  things around to me
  Its a BIG deal   , to me and I believe  ..  peace  Rose

Offline rosered

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2008, 06:42:58 PM »

 
  good post Bro G  about the thoughts  bro , i can see that  too!
 
 
  back to lurking again , Im having alot of allergy and  discomfort as well , I do feel for you bro 
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.  :thumbsup:
 
  if you look up  black in 3 places its the black  ink here in matt and rev 6
 verses  5 and 12  and white  there  are 25 verses amazing connections !!!,  leukos
 from luke ("light")1) light, bright, brilliant

a) brilliant from whiteness, (dazzling) white

1) of the garments of angels, and of those exalted to the splendour of the heavenly state

2) shining or white garments worn on festive or state occasions

3) of white garments as the sign of innocence and purity of the soul

b) dead white

1) of the whitening colour of ripening grain


 
 
  head  kephalē  g 2776 from the primary kapto (in the sense of seizing)


 
 
1) the head, both of men and often of animals. Since the loss of the head destroys life, this word is used in the phrases relating to capital and extreme punishment.

2) metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent

a) of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife

b) of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church

c) of things: the corner stone

 
  Jesus  being the Head of the corner ,  pure thoughts
 
  now look  into hair  and see if you cannot see the symbolism
 
  peace  rose

Offline Taffy

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2008, 03:33:57 PM »
Quote from: Taffy
For Mine..Hairs are Likened to  THOUGHTS

Hi Taffy, Can you show me scripture for this?  Not disagreeing, just would like to see it.

Consider that Christ spoke anything lest in PARABLES....

Mat 10:30  But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. .....

Mary , for ever MINDFUL of Christ in her thoughts....

Luk 7:44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped [them] with the hairs of her head.

Luk 10:39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.

THE GOOD PART, is that which has always BEEN,Christ within.

Luk 10:42  But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Hair is seen also as A COVERING,Strength, Raiment of the woman( Church)

1Cr 11:7  For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

1Cr 11:15  But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a covering.

Its also interesting to Note His Garment CAME DOWN TO FOOT

Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle  

Do we not DON HIS raiment,....become HIS BODY,..feet also being a PART.

Psa 119:105 NUN. Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. 

Psa 122:2 Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem.

our feet BECOME HIS FEET..YOU COULD CONSIDER THE feet OF THOSE BEING cut off IF THEY CAUSE OFFENCE..those pharisees, PREACHED a different WAY OF life WHICH INDEED LED TO death..QUITE THE CONTRARY to the GOSPEL

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

which sorta comes full circle

Mat 10:30  But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.


 Mat 10:31  Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.


 Mat 10:32  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 10:33  But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 Mat 10:34  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Taffy






Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2008, 03:39:05 PM »
Hi Rosey......

thanks for sharing sis.... :thumbsup:....I did sent ya a PM , hope ya got it girl. :icon_flower:

 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #45 on: September 15, 2008, 03:40:56 PM »
Thanks Ron..

healing slowly matey..be OK in time for Cricket season :icon_flower:

 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Taffy

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #46 on: September 15, 2008, 03:43:49 PM »

Ya Been In my thoughts To Laren, thanks for the PM Bro,...heartening to hear your in postive spirits  as you endure this trial.


Blessings
 :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #47 on: September 15, 2008, 08:27:25 PM »
Psalm 100:4
Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.


Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.


Carry on! :Sparkletooth:

Offline Nathan

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2008, 07:29:11 PM »
"31  "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." Matthew 24

Roy, I don't look at this in the same light as I think you are.  The context in which this is being given is not connected to a removal of the church but the removal of an old religious system.  Israel embraced that which no longer was in effect.  But in order for the new to be established, the old had to be done away with.  But if the new is rejected and the old embraced, it doesn't change what must be done for righteousness to be manifested in the nation.  Israel wasn't purged in A.D. 70 because God was mad at them.  It happened because they rejected the life offered to them.  A replacement was necessary, had they received it voluntarily, the slaughter never would have happened.

This entire chapter is dealing with that issue, not about a rapture.  But notice in this verse and the one previous, it speaks of the sky . . . it's a picture of what's happening in the spirit.  The same thing happened in A.D. 70 that happened in Egypt.  When the plagues hit, Goshen was protected.  When A.D 70 transpired, the Jews were slaughtered, but the Christians were not.  "They" were pursecuted later and did get a lot of attention, but not when Rome came in and wipe Israel out.

To me, the spiritual picture is the same as wheat and tares . . .the angels do the harvest there as well and the wheat and tares are what's planted "in me" as I am the field.  It's the message of truth and life that separates . .it's the message of the "Word" that divides assunder the spirit and soul, the bone and marrow.  It's all connected.

As to the Hebrews 11 passage . . . read the Message Translation . .see if it illuminates anything . ..
 39-40Not one of these people, even though their lives of faith were exemplary, got their hands on what was promised. God had a better plan for us: that their faith and our faith would come together to make one completed whole, their lives of faith not complete apart from ours.

The point is not that they were not made perfect . .but that their works of faith could not perfect them.  What "did" perfect them was what Jesus did on the cross.  And as near as I can tell . . .that was done "before the foundation of the world" which would tell me that it was done spiritually long before it manifested naturally.  And when one dies, one then  transends into the spirit realm . .where ALL things are complete.  For the sake of argument, say they were not released until the physical cross experience happened, the writer of Hebrews is writing Hebrews "after" the cross . .which again, would bring the saints passed on before, into a perfected state and manifest as a cloud of witnesses.

Did anyone see this cloud?  No.  It's not a natural cloud, it's a spiritual one.  Just because it's not seen by my eye, does not mean it's not there.  The bible also states that the angles camp round about those who love the Lord . . .can you see them? No, but that doesn't mean they're not there.  Angel simply means messenger . . . I can see that the "message of the Lord" camps round about those that love the Lord as well.  You become what you behold.  You behold life, life camps around you.  You behold judgment . . judgment camps around you.  It's all in what your eye contains . .light or darkness.

It is clear that we're coming from different places.  I don't require proof, I require nothing.  You say what you say and if I need clarification, I can ask, but as for proof, that'd be like me asking my Dad to prove he was related to his Dad.  You can get out the microscopes and find the DNA . .but what's the point?  I am the result of my Father's love for my mother, and my Father is the result of his father's love.

I see these saints as the cloud of witnesses as a result of my relationship with God.  In your relationship with God, you may not see that, but I'm not upset or questioning your relationship with God because of it.  Using the Scripture to "prove" everything is not walking in "faith" . .at least not to me . .it's walking in  . .well . . .proof.  Scripture is not the final word . .it points to the final word, it has the final word "in" it, but only the Spirit can reveal to us what that final word actually is. 

That's the uniqueness of being a Christian, what is final to me can be very different than what's final to you.  Yet we both are maturing in the Lord at our own unique pace.

Lastly . . .your concern about John 3 as your proof that I'm wrong in seeing the cloud being saints in heaven . . .

13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man." (Jn.3:13)

Let me ask you . . .where did Enoch then go?  And Elijah?  Elisha walked in it all the time but no one else could see it.  It's not a place of the mind, but one of the spirit.  This is why I'm not real big on proving or disproving.  Clarifying is one thing, but when we start thinking we need to "defend" our stance, to me, it's like saying the truth isn't strong enough to produce life on it's own, it needs my influence . . . and in the end . that can never come to any good.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Did Jesus go to heaven?
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2008, 10:04:32 PM »
Oh, by the way, I did answer you're original question . . .I see it spiritually . . . or at least I emphasize the spiritual picture of it.

Your passage in 1 Timothy is simply saying that no man "my man is my carnality . .my natural reasoning, my ego" can enter into the spiritual realm.  That's the same thing as saying your mind is at enmity with God and doesn't understand the things of God because it doesn't have the capacity to.