Did Jesus go to heaven?

[Roy Monis]

Hi! All

Did Jesus go to heaven?

Peace!

Roy   UK ?      ?    ?

[WhiteWings]

If he didn't there can't be a second coming.
But it depends on how you define that because the second coming was 12 days after crucifixion

Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 20:16-17

And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
John 20:26-27


Didn't change your post.  Just corrected a system bug.

[martincisneros]

I believe that Jesus did go to heaven.  My point in quoting so many translations on this verse is to evaluate if a multitude of translators thought that "heaven" was the best translation for the particular passage that I'm citing:

11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11 NIV)

11They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11 NASB)

11who also said, `Men, Galileans, why do ye stand gazing into the heaven? this Jesus who was received up from you into the heaven, shall so come in what manner ye saw him going on to the heaven.' (Acts 1:11 Young's Literal)

11Who said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing into heaven? This same Jesus, Who was caught away and lifted up from among you into heaven, will return in [just] the same way in which you saw Him go into heaven. (Acts 1:11 Amplified)

11 who say also, "Men! Galileans! Why do you stand, looking into heaven? This Jesus Who is being taken up from you into heaven shall come thus, in the manner in which you gaze at Him going into heaven." (Acts 1:11 Concordant Literal)

11Who also said - Men of Galilee! why stand ye looking into heaven? This Jesus who hath been taken up from you into heaven, shall so come, in like manner as ye yourselves have gazed upon him going into heaven. (Acts 1:11 Rotherham's Emphasized Bible)

11who also said, Men, Galileans, why do you stand looking up to the heaven? This Jesus, the One being taken from you into the heaven, will come in the way you saw Him going into the heaven. (Acts 1:11 Green's Literal)

11who also said, Men of Galilee, why do ye stand looking into heaven? This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven, shall thus come in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven. (Acts 1:11 Darby Translation)

Who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up to heaven? this same Jesus who is taken from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:11 Webster's Bible Translation)


As far as "what" heaven is, it's obvious from Ephesians 4:10 that He ascended far above all things so that He'd be able to fill and complete all things, so whatever else that "heaven" is, it's very obviously the type of multi-demensional existance that we'd anticipate through superstring theory in science.  He continues in His physical body as an immortal and as the above passage said, He'll bodily return someday in precisely the same body and in precisely the same state of health, and outlook regarding His complete victory, as He ascended from the earliest disciples in.  I personally believe in a postmillenial view of eschatology, so for me, I'd be anticipating His coming at the time of the resurrection and the transformation of this planet into the New Earth.  I know about the passages that give some people question marks along these lines, but He's simply not coming back previous to that and doing what He told us to do in the Great Commission to disciple all nations.

[Roy Monis]

If he didn't there can't be a second coming.
But it depends on how you define that because the second coming was 12 days after crucifixion

Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 20:16-17

And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
John 20:26-27


Didn't change your post.  Just corrected a system bug.

Hi! WhiteWings

Do I understand you correctly? You reckon that the second coming has already taken place.

Peace!

Roy   UK

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Martin

What do I do with this Scripture? "Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. " (1Cor.15:50). A flesh and blood perishable body, what did He do with it? He couldn't have got into heaven shod in that, now could He?

Peace!

Roy   UK

[WhiteWings]

If he didn't there can't be a second coming.
But it depends on how you define that because the second coming was 12 days after crucifixion

Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 20:16-17

And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
John 20:26-27


Didn't change your post.  Just corrected a system bug.

Hi! WhiteWings

Do I understand you correctly? You reckon that the second coming has already taken place.

Peace!

Roy   UK

Yes and no.

Yes because when I read the verses.
No because I think the second coming will after/at the 'end time period'

So that's why I wrote 'depends on the defenition.
Don't ask me for that defenition but for example teh prediction is that the feet of Jesus don't touch the ground when He comes for His 'elect'
But before/in/after teh verses He did really walk on the ground.
And because there are no errors in the Bible there must be some deeper/other meaning.
So no need for all those "shocked" icons because I just quoted reall verses from a real Bible....
And that states imo:
Do not touch me until I have return to my Father.
A few days later He practically orders His apostle to feel His wounds.

[WhiteWings]

AFAIK those 8 days 'in heaven' are called the "Mercy seat"

I have a 70 page document on this subject. Some sort of timeline based on verses.
But I fear that document will cause another mud sling party so if/before I post it I would like a crew member to take a peek at it to check it's allowed to be posted.
My personal impression is that it is a very good document but I'm not qualified enough to judge...

[Molly]

Do not touch me until I have return to my Father.
A few days later He practically orders His apostle to feel His wounds.

The writer of Hebrews tells us what happened in that time when Jesus ascended to heaven.



11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
 15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

--Hebrews 9


He is the High Priest, eternal priest on the order of Melchizedek, offering himself as the perfect sacrifice before the throne of God--he is both High Priest and sacrifice.  This is why he didn't allow Mary to touch him, because he had to yet ascend to the Father, and had to be completely holy--that is, not touched by anything unclean, as we see the shadow in the practice of the earthly high priest.  If he touches anything unclean, he has to start all over again, because anything not holy cannot be in the presence of God the Father.

So we see again, this same event described in the book of Revelation.


1Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."

 6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:

   "You are worthy to take the scroll
      and to open its seals,
   because you were slain,
      and with your blood you purchased men for God
      from every tribe and language and people and nation.
 10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
      and they will reign on the earth."

 11Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they sang:

  "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
   to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
   and honor and glory and praise!"

 13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:

   "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
   be praise and honor and glory and power,
         for ever and ever!"

 14The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMvT6ddOuzg

[martincisneros]

Hi! Martin

What do I do with this Scripture? "Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. " (1Cor.15:50). A flesh and blood perishable body, what did He do with it? He couldn't have got into heaven shod in that, now could He?

Peace!

Roy   UK

I personally believe that that was St. Paul's paraphrase of Jesus' comment: The flesh profits nothing, the Words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life.  Also, there's a difference between the flesh and blood that can't inherit the Kingdom that's perishable and the flesh that's been transformed by the resurrection.  St. Paul goes into this long thing in 1Corinthians 15 about sowing and reaping applying to the resurrection state with what our body is transformed into.  And also, inheriting the Kingdom of God isn't "going to heaven," it's a matter of walking in Kingdom authority and the principles of the Kingdom.  I've inherited the Kingdom, already, in one sense 'cause I'm walking in the fullness of what the Name of Jesus means as the only Name given under heaven by which men must be saved.  There are several passages that demonstrate that this inheriting isn't related to death and isn't limited to the timeframe of the resurrection, although obviously in our immortal states we've inherited extra-demensions and more easily walk in that unlimited state.  But Christians for centuries have walked in various aspects of having inherited the Kingdom with being able to multiply food, bilocation when they were taking care of the needs of others, multiplication of money, healing gifts, flying, the ability to walk through walls, etc.  When you look at the particular Catholic saints that walked in all of those blessings and benefits of the Kingdom, they tended to have the Bread and Cup every single day with great reverence and awe.  And I mention Catholic saints although there are also Protestant equivalents simply because the Catholic church has the longer history and it's easier to cite a longer list of examples with St. Martin De Porres, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Anthony, and others that some historians would call the mystics.  Inheriting the Kingdom is a mindset, as well as an eschatological event.  St. Paul said in Romans 5 that we reign now as Kings after having received the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness.  But it's not a matter of personal pedigree.  He wasn't healing the sick because he was Pharisee of the Pharisees, of the tribe of Benjamin, etc., etc.  Jesus is bodily in heaven.  The body's not hidden in a cave somewhere waiting on Him to animate it again at the last day.  His flesh, according to 1Corinthians 15, was transformed into something less fragile and incorruptible.  It was either St. Paul or St. Peter said that Jesus was raised from the dead and it's impossible for Him to see corruption or decay or any further death.  Peter mentioned it on the day of Pentecost.  And I believe that there's a reference elsewhere about the fact that He could never die again.  Romans 10:9 puts a premium on our salvation being about believing that God raised Jesus bodily from the dead.  If it was important enough to do, and important enough for all of the early Creeds, and important enough for the prophets to have spoken of, then there's no question that He's still got that physical body.  The book of Hebrews even goes so far as to say that He entered into heaven with His own Blood having obtained redemption for us.  His Blood today is on the heavenly mercy seat, which apparently is the original one that Moses was shown and told to make a precise copy of.  Whether people want to argue about the mercy seat being a piece of furniture or Jesus' own Body, the Scriptures are clear that His Blood is in heaven validating and enforcing this Covenant for all that believe it and function in the keys of the kingdom.

[Molly]

Whether people want to argue about the mercy seat being a piece of furniture or Jesus' own Body, the Scriptures are clear that His Blood is in heaven validating and enforcing this Covenant for all that believe it and function in the keys of the kingdom.

21And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

 22And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

 

--Exodus 25

[Roy Monis]

Hi! WhiteWings, Martin and Molly

Thank you for your responses, it is helpful.

WhiteWings your are touchy! The shock icons were for me because I thought I'd missed His return and was about to cry. Only kidding brother, I'll change it, to this .Any better?

I was wondering if this Scripture had anything to do with it: ""Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me; In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure. "Then I said, 'Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me) To do Your will, O God.' " (Heb.10:5-7).

This quote from Molly sort of points in that direction,

he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made,

. Also WhiteWings quote

Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:

could have some bearing on it.

The body that Jesus occupied was not of the dust like the rest of humanity and living things, but one specially prepared in readiness before His coming. Not made of human hands or produced by human means. (Jn.1:11-13). "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

A carnal analogy would be like hiring a car for a set period of time and then returning it to its source when the job was done. A sort of flesh and blood celestial body, because from the reading that's what it was. I suppose when He comes again He'll have to hire that same vehicle again. He will be coming in the old one whereas we will have new ones modeled after His.   IMO     

Peace!

Roy   UK

[WhiteWings]

The body that Jesus occupied was not of the dust like the rest of humanity and living things, but one specially prepared in readiness before His coming. Not made of human hands or produced by human means. (Jn.1:11-13). "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

I understand that verse is tehre to emphasize Jesus is very special. I'm not denying that.
But aren't we all of the Ghost?
I can best explain that with some funny experiment about life I saw over 20 years ago.
The chemical compounds of a human are fully know. So the 'scientist' took fishtank, poured a few buckets of water in it. Added a can of carbon and some other stuff. Then added some minerals etc. Took a mixer. Then started to wait and was looking very puzzled why no baby formed in that fish tank. What was missing? The life spirit of God.

That said the puzzle is still unsolved for me.
The 2 verses I quoted are only a few verses apart. Not taken out of context or twisted with difficult explantion.
Reading them it's 100% clear for me Jesus went to Heaven and returned to earth (and a few days later returned to Heaven)
Very clear.
Until elsewhere (revelation) also very clear and equally valid verses stated Jesus will return a second time to get His people. With additinal info His feet won't touch teh ground. So you could argue He returned after 8 days to collect His people. But then that means revealtion took place 8 days after the cross. The vision of revelation was after the fact. The prophesy was wrong because Jesus touched the ground.
And I don't believe there are such huge mistakes in the Bible (not even small one)
So basicly I'm very confused.
Perhaps Molly and martin adressed what I wrote but then I simply don't understand their writings.
Perhaps Jesus didn't went to Heaven in those 8 days. All that is said that He went to the Father.
So in theory they just could have met on the moon....

[Sarah]

The vision of revelation was after the fact. The prophesy was wrong because Jesus touched the ground.

to what scripture are you refering?

[WhiteWings]

Let me first make very clear I'm not saying I found an error in the Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

For me the red part shows that when Jesus returns the first time (just before teh 7 years of tribulation(?)) He stays in the air; collects His people and returns to Heaven.

[Molly]

The body that Jesus occupied was not of the dust like the rest of humanity and living things, but one specially prepared in readiness before His coming. Not made of human hands or produced by human means. (Jn.1:11-13). "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

This is very interesting.  Could you talk more about this?  Are you saying that Jesus had a special body while he was on this earth?  And, how does that relate to us?

Until elsewhere (revelation) also very clear and equally valid verses stated Jesus will return a second time to get His people. With additional info His feet won't touch teh ground. So you could argue He returned after 8 days to collect His people. But then that means revealtion took place 8 days after the cross. The vision of revelation was after the fact. The prophesy was wrong because Jesus touched the ground.

I'm not sure why you think Jesus is returning just once---?  Weren't the passages in Hebrews and Revelation clear enough?  Jesus, as high priest, had to present the perfect sacrifice, himself, the Lamb of God, to God, right after the crucifixion, for forgiveness of the sins of the world. 

6When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.

--Hebrews 9


But, this is not the only time that Jesus returns to his people--


Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

[WhiteWings]

Until elsewhere (revelation) also very clear and equally valid verses stated Jesus will return a second time to get His people. With additional info His feet won't touch teh ground. So you could argue He returned after 8 days to collect His people. But then that means revealtion took place 8 days after the cross. The vision of revelation was after the fact. The prophesy was wrong because Jesus touched the ground.

I'm not sure why you think Jesus is returning just once---?  Weren't the passages in Hebrews and Revelation clear enough?  Jesus, as high priest, had to present the perfect sacrifice, himself, the Lamb of God, to God, right after the crucifixion, for forgiveness of the sins of the world.

"...clear enough..." => I stated I see contradictions in my own statement. If you say there can be many comings then things get easier to understand.
I wrote about 2 comings because of many sites like:
http://www.cynet.com/Jesus/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Coming
http://en.bibleinfo.com/topics/topic.html?id=263
http://www.gotquestions.org/second-coming-Jesus-Christ.html
etc
etc

[Molly]

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
--1Thess 4


"the coming" [of the Lord]
G3952
παρουσία
parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.


G3918
πάρειμι
pareimi
par'-i-mee
From G3844 and G1510 (including its various forms); to be near, that is, at hand; neuter present participle (singular) time being, or (plural) property: - come, X have, be here, + lack, (be here) present.


Matthew 10:7
And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

[Molly]

"...clear enough..." => I stated I see contradictions in my own statement. If you say there can be many comings then things get easier to understand.

20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

--Rev 22

"come"

G2064
ἔρχομαι
erchomai
er'-khom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] word, ἐλεύθομαι eleuthomai or ἔλθω elthō; which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - accompany, appear, bring, come enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Molly

Quote from: Roy
The body that Jesus occupied was not of the dust like the rest of humanity and living things, but one specially prepared in readiness before His coming. Not made of human hands or produced by human means. (Jn.1:11-13). "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

This is very interesting.  Could you talk more about this?  Are you saying that Jesus had a special body while he was on this earth?  And, how does that relate to us?

This is what I understand from the reading of (Heb.10:5-7) which says, "Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, "Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me; In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure. "Then I said, 'Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me) To do Your will, O God.' "

Now bearing in mind that there had been no physical relationship between Joseph and Mary before the archangel Gabriel announced the fact that she was conceiving a Child by the Holy Spirit, proves that the body was something other than one produced by normal human relations, that is, from the dust of the earth. Add the above statement to this fact and you have a special body unlike ours.

At sometime between creation itself and the His birth a body was prepared for Him in readiness for this momentous event. It is a special body like the one we will all have at some future date when He returns. The only explanation I can offer is that the flesh and blood body that Jesus occupied was both physical and spiritual.

If you remember during His ministry at one point the Jews were attempting to kill Him and He just did a vanishing trick; "Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple." (Jn.8:59). And when He reappeared after the crucifixion He had His normal physical body which the apostles both touched and ate with, yet He made His entrance through closed doors.   

Peace!

Roy   UK

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Brother WhiteWings

And because there are no errors in the Bible there must be some deeper/other meaning.
So no need for all those "shocked" icons because I just quoted reall verses from a real Bible....
And that states imo:

Sorry about the shock icons  that's better.

The are only two comings. The first was Jesus Christ's physical appearance on earth which was the sowing of the crop. The start of the salvation of all mankind work His Father had commissioned Him to do. This work was completed when He ascended into heaven, 40 days after the crucifixion. His second coming will be to collect His first fruit harvest, that is, the chosen/elect in the first resurrection, then after His 1000year rule with His elect will come the second White Throne Judgment when all the rest of mankind will be judged and purified like silver; "He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness." (Mal.3:3).

'Tis true His feet don't touch the ground of this earth and neither will those of the elect/chosen who meet up with Him in the clouds.

Peace!

Roy    Uk

[laren]

'Tis true His feet don't touch the ground of this earth and neither will those of the elect/chosen who meet up with Him in the clouds.

Peace!

Roy    Uk

and I suppose he will be covered in blood, with a sword coming out of his mouth, while riding on a horse too.

Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

[Taffy]

and I suppose he will be covered in blood, with a sword coming out of his mouth, while riding on a horse too.

Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Hey bro ..now, wont that be quite a sight for such literalists.... 

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Laren

and I suppose he will be covered in blood, with a sword coming out of his mouth, while riding on a horse too.

Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Me thinks you're argument is with God brother not me. I only agreed with WhiteWings that the Lord's feet don't touch the ground and neither those of the elect unless of course they are very, very, tall because clouds are usually pretty high. That's what it says in Scripture and that's what I believe. (1Thess.4:16-17) in case you missed it, verse 4 is for you I reckon. It doesn't mention, blood, white linen, sharp sword, rod of iron and wrath in these verses or I'd have mentioned them. Sorry to disappoint you!   

Peace!

Roy    UK

 

[Nathan]

Laren, ya make a great point.  You're implying (to me) that if you're going to take one part of it literally, then ya need to take the whole thing literally and to that I say yes and amen . . .I agree and it can't be done because it's just as you said . . .Jesus is going to come covered in blood . . .not even looking like a man, but a lamb that had been slain . .he's going to have this huge blade projecting out of his mouth, his hair is going to me white, course and curly . . .cuz that's what sheep's wool looks like . . .

Once you start separating that which is literal and that which is not, you begin a long and slippery road that never ends and only leads you to division and confusion.

Are women really supposed to be quiet in church and let their husbands to the talking and listening?

We've been down this road before . .but it doesn't change the patterns.  Revelation is like the rest of the Word . . .it's as dimensional as the one who inspired it.  There is a literal, moral and spiritual application.  But the spiritual does not come as does the literal and moral.  The first two come from God, through men, the third comes from God through Christ . . .spiritual pictures can be shared, but the spiritual truth in them can only be revealed by Grace. 

Jesus said this to Peter at the first revelation . . ."Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven." 

The Pharisees knew the book inside and out . . .it only led them into bondage.  The bread alone isn't enough, we need to have the "proceeding Word", the breath to breathe life into that which is written, which will illuminate "to you" (it's an "individual" relationship) what lies beneath the pages.

and I suppose he will be covered in blood, with a sword coming out of his mouth, while riding on a horse too.

Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The armies in verse 14, to me, are the same as the cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 12 and they are the same as the cloud Jesus came in . . . they are us.  Jude speaks of religious men as clouds without water.  Hebrews 11 and the first part of 12 goes into elaborate detail who the cloud of witnesses are that envelope us.

2 Peter 1
20 Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding,[h] 21 or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God.

Private interpretation I think is the King James on that.  It's where many get the fact that only Scripture can interpret Scripture . . .and yet, so many still choose their own interpretations. 

These things were inspired by the spirit . . .which to me, means that the life we're to gain from them is through spiritual interpretations as well.  And when you look at clouds in Scriptures like Hebrews 12, you can see that the clouds consist of us.  Saints who've gone on before us.  Controversial?  You bet.  But think about it . . .why would God go through all the trouble of giving a word to them then, for us to take literally now . .especially when he already laid out a pattern of trying to save yesterday's manna for today.

On the one hand I claim to have a re NEWED mind, while at the same time, I embrace yesterday's bread. 

Lamentations 3
 22It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.  23They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.

His mercies are new every morning . . .that doesn't sound like yesterday's manna to me . .that sounds like a fresh word for a new day.  It's still the same Bible, just read in a new perspective.  The end result, life, liberty and love beyond measure.

Scripture says the sword is the word . .which is why you see the sword coming out of his mouth . .it is the message of God that is doing the work . .God "speaks" and it is so.

What nations are being smitten?  Tradition says it's all the physical nations that are plotting to erase Israel of the map.  Jesus warns the disciples of the coming doom upon Israel in Matthew 24 and he says "nation will rise against nation".  I'm sure most have done a little research and have learned "how" the destruction of Israel actually came about.  Rome did slaughter them, but that was not there intent.  They came to bring peace because it was the religious sects that created such a civil war that Rome stepped in to try to get it under control. . . .nations did not come into Israel to rise against them . . .the nations that rose against each other were the religious sects.

So . . . ..here in Revelation, I see these nations falling to the sword out of the mouth of Jesus, are those who reject the light and life of Truth and embrace their own version of what they perceive truth to be.  It's the message of truth itself that does the destroying of the carnality of religious minds.

There for the grace of God go I . . .I was so bound by religiousness and I would never have admitted it because I was to blind to see it.  The only way I "did" see it was not because someone preached me a sermon on it, but because God chose to break the scales off my eyes . . .I had a hunger for intimacy even though I didn't really know what that meant.  Even so, God was working in me, giving me his desire both to will and to do his good pleasure . . .and that's just what happened.

[Molly]

his hair is going to me white, course and curly . . .cuz that's what sheep's wool looks like . . .

I just 'saw' this the other day.  It's nice to hear you say it, too.


God has many ways to communicate to us--starting in the natural and moving to metaphor, simile, the more spiritual aspects of language, and, finally, to the spiritual revelation itself.



13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

 14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

 15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

--Rev 1



9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

 10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

--Daniel 7