Did Jesus Exist?

[Gizmo]

I have stated before that I haven't found any EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT evidence of him outside the Bible.  I still find this hard to understand, don't you guys?

Nope.  Not many writings survived that time, so I wouldn't expect to find much if anything.  There were many people running around calling themselves the Messiah, so Jesus would have been just another. 

It would be helpful for those who need extra-Biblical evidence, but I don't discount the NT simply because it tells the story of Jesus by his followers.  There are almost certainly errors and embellishments in the NT, but there are enough different people testifying to Jesus' existence to satisfy me.  But that's not enough for everyone and I certainly understand that.

Giz

[noname]

Apples and Oranges, as Zeus, Cronus and Apollo were not born or lived on the earth. Jesus was born and lived on this earth.  No one who believed in Zeus would have said he was a man. Jesus was a man. And being a man who worked a trade it is still possible for Archeological findings to come to light showing Jesus was a historical figure.  What if they found a work order for a carpenter named Jesus who lived in Nazareth? Would that prove anything? Many would still say no. 
Paul

hey Kept,
glad to see you came back...didn't you leave for a sabbatical recently?

hey Paul,
I only mentioned some Greek gods...they did believe that some gods came to earth as men...and even that the gods had children with earthly women, arising in the Titans (which were giants of old)...does this story sound familiar?
sure it does...just compare it to the Bible stories of the Anakim, Nephilim, Zimzum etc

even the Egyptians...from where came forth the Israelites who lived there for 400 years...had these beliefs 2000 BEFORE Christ was born...
they believed that the Pharaohs were the direct decendants of the gods...ie the Pharaoh was seen as the "son/sun of God"...ie the Messiah
even the same word we use to end a prayer "Amen"...is a call to the god they called the "originator"..."first one"..."most high"...Amen or Amun...later known as Amen-Ra as more emphasis was placed on him being of "divine light"...
some of their god-men (who supposedly were the sons of the gods or God in heaven), even had real tombs...and temples dedicated to them

furthermore, to come back to Jesus and specifically him being the Messiah (in a Jewish sense ie saviour of Israel)...
does nobody think it odd that after Jesus' supposed birth, life, death and ressurection a Jewish guy called Simon Bar Kochba proclaimed himself as the Messiah...started the Jewish revolts against Rome...even had his own coins printed...and the Jews believed him...
 
he even applied the Messianic "Star Prophecy" to himself ie Numbers 24:17: "There shall come a star out of Jacob" ("Bar Kochba" means "son of a star" in the Aramaic language)
Eventually he dragged the whole Jewish nation behind him into battle with the Romans...and we know what the consequences were
checkit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba's_revolt

but surely...if even some Jews knew about Jesus who supposedly lived only a few years before Bar Kochba (100 or so) and about 50 years after the Gospels were written...surely we would have at least a Jewish and/or Roman record of refuting Bar Kochba as the Messiah...can you start to see my dilemma in what to believe or not? there are more evidence for Bar Kochba's existence than that of Jesus...

I'm just finding it ever more unnerving that there is so little information about "the greatest man that has ever walked the earth"...but tons about other "Messiahs", "saviours" and "god-men"....mmmm

[jenna]

Apples and Oranges, as Zeus, Cronus and Apollo were not born or lived on the earth. Jesus was born and lived on this earth.  No one who believed in Zeus would have said he was a man. Jesus was a man. And being a man who worked a trade it is still possible for Archeological findings to come to light showing Jesus was a historical figure.  What if they found a work order for a carpenter named Jesus who lived in Nazareth? Would that prove anything? Many would still say no. 
Paul

hey Kept,
glad to see you came back...didn't you leave for a sabbatical recently?

hey Paul,
I only mentioned some Greek gods...they did believe that some gods came to earth as men...and even that the gods had children with earthly women, arising in the Titans (which were giants of old)...does this story sound familiar?
sure it does...just compare it to the Bible stories of the Anakim, Nephilim, Zimzum etc

even the Egyptians...from where came forth the Israelites who lived there for 400 years...had these beliefs 2000 BEFORE Christ was born...
they believed that the Pharaohs were the direct decendants of the gods...ie the Pharaoh was seen as the "son/sun of God"...ie the Messiah
even the same word we use to end a prayer "Amen"...is a call to the god they called the "originator"..."first one"..."most high"...Amen or Amun...later known as Amen-Ra as more emphasis was placed on him being of "divine light"...
some of their god-men (who supposedly were the sons of the gods or God in heaven), even had real tombs...and temples dedicated to them

furthermore, to come back to Jesus and specifically him being the Messiah (in a Jewish sense ie saviour of Israel)...
does nobody think it odd that after Jesus' supposed birth, life, death and ressurection a Jewish guy called Simon Bar Kochba proclaimed himself as the Messiah...started the Jewish revolts against Rome...even had his own coins printed...and the Jews believed him...
 
he even applied the Messianic "Star Prophecy" to himself ie Numbers 24:17: "There shall come a star out of Jacob" ("Bar Kochba" means "son of a star" in the Aramaic language)
Eventually he dragged the whole Jewish nation behind him into battle with the Romans...and we know what the consequences were
checkit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba's_revolt

but surely...if even some Jews knew about Jesus who supposedly lived only a few years before Bar Kochba (100 or so) and about 50 years after the Gospels were written...surely we would have at least a Jewish and/or Roman record of refuting Bar Kochba as the Messiah...can you start to see my dilemma in what to believe or not? there are more evidence for Bar Kochba's existence than that of Jesus...

I'm just finding it ever more unnerving that there is so little information about "the greatest man that has ever walked the earth"...but tons about other "Messiahs", "saviours" and "god-men"....mmmm

At least we can agree on this, if nothing else. But then again, what else would Satan want? Does he want the truth about the real Jesus spread around, or all other gods, since he was their originator? Who does he really want people to know about?

[noname]

At least we can agree on this, if nothing else. But then again, what else would Satan want? Does he want the truth about the real Jesus spread around, or all other gods, since he was their originator? Who does he really want people to know about?

hey!! we have agreement!

you know Jenna...I have come to the realisation that my relationship with the most High (ie Creator, Originator and Sutainer of All), has got NOTHING to do with any "other" entity (you mentioned Satan)...I have discovered for myself that everything and anything or anyone who is placed between God and me is only an obstacle to overcome...only creates distance between us, not unity

the BIG LIE is that somehow by our actions or by some other entity's interfearance, we can lose the Love of our Creator and that we need an intercessor...an inbetweener

[Gizmo]

I'm just finding it ever more unnerving that there is so little information about "the greatest man that has ever walked the earth"...but tons about other "Messiahs", "saviours" and "god-men"....mmmm

There is no disputing the lack of information, but the lack of information must be put in context.  The "other Messiahs" were probably all militaristic types that history would record.  Please remember that most historians weren't like the scholars today who hold objectivity as a virtue.  They worked for dictators who liked stories about how they crushed rebellions...to keep others in line and for their own glory.  Jesus didn't preach violence and let no military movement and went so far as to claim His kingdom wasn't of this world.  Consequently He would be of little interest historically...except for those who followed Him, of course.

Giz

[jfraysse]

Brother Giz:  Excellent points!  My thoughts (at least some of them) exactly!  History, many times, depends on the "history" and POV of the historian, especially when the guy you work for can have Your Head on a platter if he doesn't like what you wrote!

Grace & Peace, John

[Kept]

hey Kept,
glad to see you came back...didn't you leave for a sabbatical recently?

Hi noname, yep but as soon as I was leaving mainly because I was dealing thru the ot vs nt God thing, the lack of evidence as you are pointing out, the tribalism and many more things I felt I should take time off instead of bringing them up on other forums. As soon as I did that they began taking a front seat anyways. So my 'sabbatical' has been interrupted but

I am up for a full time job as well so I will be fading off into the distance soon.

i must appear very wishy washy huh? oh well, thats me I suppose, shes here, no wait shes not, no shes back, no wait shes not 

ps wanted to add, been giving attention to a lot of the things you bring up here.

you said you dont accept any go between I believe you phrased it, sorry if I state it different. Does that mean you see Jesus different than you previously did?

kept

[Kept]

Wanted to add, I do find those things very interesting indeed noname.

Speaking for me, I read acharra's book a few years ago when it came out and it brings forth much of the things you are sharing here. What it did to me though was further show me that as far back as we have evidence mankind has had the religion of a dying god/man, resurrection to immortality. Even if there is very little evidence for Jesus outside the gospels to me all the evidence of this same belief going back to our very early times shows me that its very important. It is at the center and remains at the center. That tends to really speak volumes to me.

Jesus Christ has been made real to me as the center of that revelation. He is where I entered into that knowing instead of thru other myths and legends. He is still therefore my shining example of this truth that mankind seems to hold to all thry history. And so even if tomorrow they unearthed real proof that he was just another in a long line of god/men myths, it really wouldnt change the power of the gospel for me. I find its become a part of my inner spiritual life. It speaks on a level much deeper than just historical anyways.

kept

[noname]

hey Kept,
I totally get what you're saying when referring to Jesus Christ as your shining example
for me, whether true or myth, he is that too...I have never seen a man with love like him

on the other hand...I want to ask...if there was no "middle-man" between us and God (the Almighty, First One, Most High)...would we all have these wars and strife between religions and nations and clashes of civilisations?

if we all just worshipped the God above all, would we then need Jesus, Mohammed, Moses?

and if God is our Father...can't we just talk to Him directly? must we always work through a medium?
even Jesus himself said that the Father wants us to worship Him in Truth and in Spirit...he didn't say "in Truth and in Spirit through me"...see what I'm getting at?

I'm looking to worship a God that heals and not kill, that bring people together not drive them apart...not to "devide and conquer"...but draw all people together in love, peace, unity

if any proposed god do not have those "fruits", I'm simply not interested anymore

@ gizmo:

There is no disputing the lack of information, but the lack of information must be put in context.  The "other Messiahs" were probably all militaristic types that history would record.  Please remember that most historians weren't like the scholars today who hold objectivity as a virtue.

uhmm...people today have got relics of modern day idols or gods like Elvis in their homes...even towels with his sweat and spit on...if the historical Jesus was the man that drew masses of people...some of those people would have said something or kept something of him...
there are numerous things written about and physical evidence of other non-violent men that have walked this earth...a typical example would be Buddha (who lived 400 BC) - temples, statues, written word etc etc and even "eye witness accounts" from his followers...or Zoroaster who also lived prior to Jesus...that "argument" of yours do not hold any water with me

[Kept]

if we all just worshipped the God above all, would we then need Jesus, Mohammed, Moses?

and if God is our Father...can't we just talk to Him directly? must we always work through a medium?
even Jesus himself said that the Father wants us to worship Him in Truth and in Spirit...he didn't say "in Truth and in Spirit through me"...see what I'm getting at?

I'm looking to worship a God that heals and not kill, that bring people together not drive them apart...not to "devide and conquer"...but draw all people together in love, peace, unity

if any proposed god do not have those "fruits", I'm simply not interested anymore

i hear ya noname, I am very sick of all the tribalism and that is what seems to cause the fighting. I read that in 2007 we now have over 40,000 denominations in christianity alone.

Im all for unity too, but I dont think its going to come thru a religion

the times we seem to cross all barriers are when our common humanity rises up as one

I always am struck by pictures of prayers on battlefields, both teams claiming victory in the name of God, but you can put all those same people in an earthquake and all the barriers fall off and they come together in unity

thanks
kept

[noname]

the times we seem to cross all barriers are when our common humanity rises up as one

Amen!
joining together in common humanity we become "god-like"...the way God wants us to be

after all these centuries of war and strife it is time for us to discover what we have in common and not how we differ, we tend to look at the differences and drift further apart

if God is One...we should also become One...else we cannot say that we know Him or His ways

[jfraysse]

Brother Noname and Sister Kept:

I know this is a bit off topic here but there are three basic tenets of Orthodox Christianity that I find repugnant and extremely complicated Biblical concepts.

1. The revealed Evil Nature of the Biblical God, which to me, is rooted in required appeasement or sacrifice, that is, the "angry god" concept.

2. God's supposedly "Exclusive Revelation" to a "Chosen People". Knowledge of God should be simple (if it is important) and undeniable to All Humans! NO Tribalism!

3. The "Mission" to Evangelize the World with the Biblical God's "Turn or Burn - Good News" (ET).  This mission, as stated, is ultimately important, overly difficult to achieve and failure to reach this goal has catastrophic consequences to the unreached and/or unsure.  UR mostly gets around this problem and the problems associated with #2.

In regards to Problem #1, as I have shared before, God's Spirit tells me that I should not honor anyone, especially "a god", that thinks, speaks or acts in an evil fashion and (allegedly) violates its own rules. Since the actions of the Biblical "meanie god" span the gamut of human emotions and evil deeds, the origins of "this god" are best explained as man-made.

Evil men are capable of a wide range of atrocities, with or without "religion", but for those who need the "sanction of god" to commit horrid acts, the Bible is full of explicit examples to justify the "Lord's Work".  Every "god inspired" evil action, dogma or command flows down stream from this explanation.  Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate said it best when he wrote "… But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion."

At every turn, Jesus seemed to do and say things that would offend and turn back ingrained tribalism and the "religious" folk of His day.  Why?  He even said that He came to bring "a sword" and divide (families included).  Why? Was it because He was "having a bad day"?  I think not!  It was because He was "correcting" the most religious and "word based" people on the planet!  To me, this is a sobering message.  What would the world be like today if the "words" hadn't spawned the Dogmas of Orthodox Christianity and the Roman Catholic Church NEVER HAD an EMPIRE to go with them?

Maybe we would have had a lot less of those battlefield prayer scenes!?

Grace & Peace, John

[Mississippi Heretic]

The last 3 posters, I suggest you read the entire thread again.

Noname is a believer, so why would he want to disprove?  Fallacy of assumption.  Read.

Blessings

uhmm...thanks SeekerSA...just now people will think I'm an atheist...

@Pierac
you mentioned proof of Jesus' existence can be obtained by proof of people supposedly living the same time as him...
well...history also proves that people/nations mentioned in Homer's Iliad did exist...are you also then going to believe in Zeus, Cronus, Apollo and all the other gods mentioned in his writings like they are for real?
didn't think so...

my quest in this thread as I'm sure Mississipi Heretic's was (when he still participated), was to find the historical Jesus
I have stated before that I haven't found any EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT evidence of him outside the Bible
I still find this hard to understand, don't you guys?

if the Truth is out there I want to know that the Truth I'm putting my beliefs in is REAL...does anyone get what I'm trying to say here?

i'm sorry noname for not participating...i just felt that what would happen  with this thread is what is happeining now...just folks running round and round an argument, a dog chasing his tail.   Shortly after we corresponded, I came to a peace that I don't have to know, don't care to look anymore and that it doesn't really change the way  I believe.  In a way it is bittersweet to detach oneself from the search...yet, it is so liberating.  I am not bound by  preconceived notions and therefore I am more open God's greatness and more willing to be in awe of God's creation....I'm sorry if I have opened up a can of worms here.   However, I think the question is still worth the asking.  As for the answer, it's pretty clear though...there is NO clear historical evidence for the existence of Jesus the Man.  What is left, however,  is the personal revelations by God to His children in regards to His Being...and that Spirit filled journey is what seems to be the most important thing to me.
Peace and Blessings to All,
bart

[jfraysse]

I am not bound by  preconceived notions and therefore I am more open God's greatness and more willing to be in awe of God's creation....I'm sorry if I have opened up a can of worms here.

Good for YOU, MH!  No worms, at least for me.  Sorry for the digression!

Grace & Peace, John

[Kept]

Nice post John

and

Im happy for you Bart

I have found for me personally to give myself fully to what ever season Im in. Sometimes I go a long time without picking up a book and other times I am reading everything in site lol



kept

[noname]

Brother Noname and Sister Kept:

I know this is a bit off topic here but there are three basic tenets of Orthodox Christianity that I find repugnant and extremely complicated Biblical concepts.

1. The revealed Evil Nature of the Biblical God, which to me, is rooted in required appeasement or sacrifice, that is, the "angry god" concept.

2. God's supposedly "Exclusive Revelation" to a "Chosen People". Knowledge of God should be simple (if it is important) and undeniable to All Humans! NO Tribalism!

3. The "Mission" to Evangelize the World with the Biblical God's "Turn or Burn - Good News" (ET).  This mission, as stated, is ultimately important, overly difficult to achieve and failure to reach this goal has catastrophic consequences to the unreached and/or unsure.  UR mostly gets around this problem and the problems associated with #2.

I'm thinking along the same lines John...
what is really curious to me is that the god of the Jews (Yahweh, Jehovah) first revealed himself with this name to Moses...(to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob God was El - Shaddai)
of this god of the Jews even his prophets tell us that he creates "good AND evil"
and if one takes the examples you have given one can clearly see "by the fruits" of this god that he does indeed "create evil"...by the fruits of modern Israel one can also see that they follow this evil god...who wants to steal other peoples land, lock them up in a prison without basic water, food and necessary services (in the case of Gaza)

the teachings of Jesus goes directly against this type of god

@bart:

As for the answer, it's pretty clear though...there is NO clear historical evidence for the existence of Jesus the Man.  What is left, however,  is the personal revelations by God to His children in regards to His Being...and that Spirit filled journey is what seems to be the most important thing to me.

Amen! the goodness and real personality of God will shine into every heart who accepts it...and remove all the cobwebs of evil gods and their "chosen"

[jfraysse]

Brother Noname: Ref your #65.  The names... yes, that is interesting, isn't it! Thanks! Grace & Peace, John

[jfraysse]

Brother NoName: 

Just to be clear, none of my remarks should be construed to be Anti-Semitic.  I am vehemently opposed to both Zionist and Anti-Semitic groups as they represent Tribalism. 

As stated before, I believe that God is not a respecter of persons, groups, Races and Nations and that this concept should be Humanity's Model.

As you point out, Jesus, although a Jew, did not appear to be "political" in anyway.  He was not the National Deliver the Jews wanted nor was He an advocate of the Roman (other any other) State.  As I have told others many times, "I am a Zionists only to the extent that you are an Anti-Semite"!

I hope I have cleared up any confusion on this matter, if there was any.

Grace & Peace, John

[noname]

Brother John,
I'm not seeing anything you say as Anti-Semitic...

this anti-semitic thing is quite a nice tool for Zionists to use against their enemies...and then they are killing their fellow Semites (the Palestinians, Lebanese) by the thousands...they use this as a nice political tool to get what they want...and they aren't even Jews themselves by birth as most of them are of Khazar descent (ie "normalized" Jews)
Orthodox Jews (ie the real Jews born of Judah), fiercely oppose the Zionists...in their way of thinking and action...they also oppose Jews going back to Israel to take the land by force, as they acknowledge that God made them a promise that the Messiah will set Judah (and the whole of Israel) free when the time is right.

for links to Jews against Zionism, check these links out:
 http://www.nkusa.org/
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

[jfraysse]

Brother NoName:  Cool, man!  I'm glad I didn't give that impression! 

I, like you and many others, hate "religious wars" and religious fascism! 

Those links are spot-on, btw.  I'm glad somebody has some common sense when it comes to all this tribalism crap. 

Thanks and have a great weekend!

Grace & Peace, John

[Mississippi Heretic]

Tribalism is rampant in this country too, unfortunately...the main example i'm thinking of are Democrats and Republicans....what is worse is when anti-tribalism groups(anarachists)become tribal in their thoughts and actions.   

[reFORMer]

I am not bound by  preconceived notions and therefore I am more open God's greatness and more willing to be in awe of God's creation....I'm sorry if I have opened up a can of worms here.   However, I think the question is still worth the asking.  As for the answer, it's pretty clear though...there is NO clear historical evidence for the existence of Jesus the Man.  What is left, however,  is the personal revelations by God to His children in regards to His Being...and that Spirit filled journey is what seems to be the most important thing to me.
Peace and Blessings to All,
bart

God had a special place and time where there was a cumulative result on some of the people there of His varied dealings leading up to His manifestation as human flesh.  Things such as His sinlessness wouldn't have been very appreciated anywhere else, like India, for instance.  As well, who else had the prophecies?  Some things were with the Magi, but...  Just like you wouldn't normally carry a jewel around loose in your pocket but put it in a finding, so Jesus appeared in Israel in the days of the Roman Empire.

The rules of doing history verify the existence of Jesus more than most any other ancient personage.  One must only deal objectively and as a historian with the evidences.  So was the understanding of the author of The Robe, a historian travelling with Ingersoll, a famous atheist around the 1940's (he was responsible for the present popular idea of "the separation of church and state.")  When on a train on a Sunday morning they heard church bells ringing, Robert Ingersoll suggested he put this Jesus thing to rest once and for all.  After all, he was a scholar, a historian, so should be able to debunk it with ease.  After 2 years research he says one night he realized there was more proof for Jesus in history as the New Testament documents present Him than that Julius Ceasar ever existed.  He fell on his knees, crying out to God all night, and with the sunrise the light of God's love dawned in his heart.  The outcome was he wrote The Robe as a result of the research that he had done.

I tell this story from memory after maybe thirty or more years since I read it so I hope you'll forgive any lapse in detail.  It should be in the preface to the novel which I don't have before me.

Of course, factoids about the historical Jesus do not do the same thing as the presence of His Spirit within us.  Nevertheless, without some authoritative "preconceived notion" in the form of Scripture, there would be so much more Jesus's in our own image.  The "real" Jesus is not in conflict with the Bible presentation of Him, but He also is not confined to the Bible.

---James

[noname]

I find it unbelievable that someone would make a statement that there's more evidence for the historical Jesus than for Julius Caesar...ever seen a coin with Jesus' image on it like that of Caesars? to name one example that comes to mind...or...ever seen a statue erected in his true image?
 
and to just accept after you've read a novel (of which the meaning of is that it is...uhmm...fiction)...and then say now you have enough evidence?
please...present that to us...all this overwhelming evidence

and to say that the "Spirit of Jesus" in people is enough reason for them to believe in Him...what does that mean?
it is a very subjective remark...as "the spirit of Jesus" obviously manifests itself differently in the over 200 Christian denominations not true?...as they all believe differently
the same "spirit" leads people to believe in UR and ET...which are at total opposite ends of the belief spectrum...could it be "the same spirit"?

facts man...just give us the facts

[Reverend G]

Actually, I have never seen a coin with Julius Caesars image on it, though I am sure they exist.  So do pictures of zeus.  The fact is, more documentation has existed for Jesus existence than many other historical personages.  That does not include biblical references.  There are even Judaic references. To pick and choose historians of the past (well I don't find him trustworthy) when others accept their correspondence is just a way of shirking the evidence. While some historical tracts have been questioned, even Josephus works that have not been suspected of tampering do include Jesus.   It is true that many of the documents which once existed are no longer extant, which is true of a number of historic persons besides Jesus. That a man named Jesus existed and was crucified are accepted historical facts by the multitude of historical scholars.  Granted, this may change in the future, and the needed evidence does diminish as time goes by, barring further findings.  Rewriting of history does seem in vogue today, so have at it.   

[noname]

Actually, I have never seen a coin with Julius Caesars image on it, though I am sure they exist.  So do pictures of zeus.  The fact is, more documentation has existed for Jesus existence than many other historical personages.  That does not include biblical references.  There are even Judaic references. To pick and choose historians of the past (well I don't find him trustworthy) when others accept their correspondence is just a way of shirking the evidence. While some historical tracts have been questioned, even Josephus works that have not been suspected of tampering do include Jesus.   It is true that many of the documents which once existed are no longer extant, which is true of a number of historic persons besides Jesus. That a man named Jesus existed and was crucified are accepted historical facts by the multitude of historical scholars.  Granted, this may change in the future, and the needed evidence does diminish as time goes by, barring further findings.  Rewriting of history does seem in vogue today, so have at it.   

here are some of my facts:
Julius Caesar coins - issued in 44BC
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=523

Julius Caesar - Busts, statues, friends
http://www.beloit.edu/~classics/main/courses/history222/julius/

show me some of your facts...other than hearsay