Author Topic: Did Jesus die on the cross? Or before? Or both?  (Read 781 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Did Jesus die on the cross? Or before? Or both?
« on: January 31, 2009, 02:43:16 PM »
Hows that for a confusing topic title  :laughing7:

Just from an article I remember.
I was looking into 3 days and 3 nights in the grave.
That just doesn't fit when using Friday as crucifixion day.
So I started looking around for the 'solution'. (actually found it; but that's not what this question is about)


We all know the body of Jesus died on the cross.
But some claim His spirit died at the moment of betrayal. No more wise words from that point because the link with Father was broken. Jesus was spiritually dead at that point.

Comments?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline CHB

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Re: Did Jesus die on the cross? Or before? Or both?
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2009, 06:31:16 PM »

Just my  :2c: worth but I believe it was when Jesus said "into thy hands I commend my spirit."

CHB

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Did Jesus die on the cross? Or before? Or both?
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2009, 06:48:57 PM »
Just my  :2c: worth but I believe it was when Jesus said "into thy hands I commend my spirit."

That's correct. But is that spiritual death?
Many people that are alive today are said to be spiritual death. But as I understand it the spirit is still inside of them.

In other words can the spirit be dead before the body dies.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Jesus die on the cross? Or before? Or both?
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2009, 06:52:55 PM »
Hows that for a confusing topic title  :laughing7:

Just from an article I remember.
I was looking into 3 days and 3 nights in the grave.
That just doesn't fit when using Friday as crucifixion day.
So I started looking around for the 'solution'. (actually found it; but that's not what this question is about)


We all know the body of Jesus died on the cross.
But some claim His spirit died at the moment of betrayal. No more wise words from that point because the link with Father was broken. Jesus was spiritually dead at that point.

Comments?
I like that interpretation of it because when he handed the bread to Judas, he was handing himself over to satan.  After that, he is totally at the mercy of satan--the hour of darkness.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Did Jesus die on the cross? Or before? Or both?
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2009, 06:54:21 PM »
 :cloud9: A whole lot of questions spring to my mind to contemplate from this one......thanks.......like for one, why did He have to commend His spirit in the first place, since the spirit returns to the One who sent it?
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Did Jesus die on the cross? Or before? Or both?
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2009, 07:07:32 PM »
Just my guess work.

Assume Jesus was spiritual dead. Not unthinkable that was worse for Him than the torture that followed.

The second before He dies I command His spirit to God. As you say there is nothing to command. It is a fact.
So what if we read it as:
"Take full control of my spirit"
So his body died but at the same moment the spirit was linked again (reborn)

???
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Jesus die on the cross? Or before? Or both?
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2009, 07:17:09 PM »
I don't see it as his spirit died in the sense that happened with Adam.  Rather, that he disengaged it, put it in neutral, as it were, otherwise, satan could never have had control over him.  I see it as his choice to do that--and when he tells Pilate, essentially, don't think you have any control over this, he is telling Pilate this would never happen in a million years unless he (his Father) allowed it.  Poor Pilate was trying to think of any way he could to release him.


10Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?

 11Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

 12And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.


--John 19




« Last Edit: January 31, 2009, 07:39:56 PM by Molly »

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Did Jesus die on the cross? Or before? Or both?
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2009, 07:20:15 PM »
 :cloud9: Well, I'm sorta leaning in that direction myself Molly, as He took on all our sins willingly, so since spiritual death was the fruit of our sins, would He have not have taken on that willingly too?
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Jesus die on the cross? Or before? Or both?
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2009, 07:27:14 PM »
Yes, he says as much.  It is his choice.


52Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

 53Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

 54But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?


--Mat 26


Offline Cardinal

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Re: Did Jesus die on the cross? Or before? Or both?
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2009, 07:51:08 PM »
 :cloud9: Along these lines pertaining to the cross WhiteWings, He showed me that He went to the cross internally before He ever went to the external one, as the body (natural) can only do what it sees it's Head (Spirit) do. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Did Jesus die on the cross? Or before? Or both?
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2009, 08:57:29 PM »
:cloud9: Along these lines pertaining to the cross WhiteWings, He showed me that He went to the cross internally before He ever went to the external one, as the body (natural) can only do what it sees it's Head (Spirit) do. Blessings....
wow yes.

And we can even pinpoint when that happened.


41And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

 42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

 43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

 44And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.


--Luke 22