DEMONS~

[Nathan]

I don't have time right now to go into much detail to try to answer the question . . .maybe in an hour or so, but for now,

I find it interesting that when we come to a loss of understand, we tend to lean toward the words of another with which we treat as one would with a piece of clothing in a thrift store . . .we try on the words of another and see how they fit and whether or not it agrees with our identity and such . . .sometimes we like the shirt, but there's a loose string that needs to be acknowledged, or there's a wrinkle that needs to be ironed out . . .or . . .we like the fit but the color just looks terrible on us  . . .so we take it back off and continue sifting through the writings and comments of other people until we can find something that suits us.

But what if the kingdom of God isn't something you can borrow from someone else .. .what if the kingdom of God is a garment that is meant only for one individual . . .instead of wearing someone else's ideals . . .who do 'YOU' say that I am???  We try to force answers, we try to manipulate knowledge to uncover knowledge . . .but again, spiritual truth doesn't come by way of flesh and blood . .. it's a birthing of truth from "within" us.

Gotta go, but I'll try to answer the other question later.

[Molly]

Because it is all in our mind and heart...

No, it's not all in my mind and heart.   God is out there, existing independently of me.  So is Satan.

Molly God is in You, and you are in Him, He is not dependent on us, but we are not independent from Him

again Im not sure what Molly Ona bout concerning my post, Id have to read again~ But I see as  an analogy , men being Fish made of water , He being the WATER of the sea they swim in and Him In the Fish~

This is what I quoted from:


"Because it is all in our mind and heart does not mean that it is imagination or hallucination! In the depths of my spirit I am absolutely certain that there was not some hideous personality materializing before the eyes of Jesus in that Judean wilderness. Remember — Jesus was not only the Son of God, He was the Son of man. Being both He was capable not only of hearing from God, but hearing those things that be of man. So when we speak of that ancient Serpent which is the Devil and Satan, we are not talking about some mighty fallen angel, but that mind that savors the things of man — the carnal mind

[shawn]

OK, I much like your thoughts.

Agreed about Jesus and relationship.

But......we're also instructed to pursue, hold fast to, and contend for sound doctrine.  Paul spent much time instructing about that...not to be carried away by every wind of doctrine, etc., etc.   So it seems like it is important?

And I agree but what was Paul speaking about?  Was he instructing believers to squabble about details that don't really effect relationship with our Savior?  Or was he speaking about those who were deceiving believers into sin more so grace abounds more...or the other crew who were trying to drag believers back into lawful living?  See those kinds of things effect relationship, and I'm willing to go to bat about the need to have a sound understanding of these things.  While I love a good discussion over any Biblical topic, I pick my battles when it comes to protecting the Gospel revealed to me through relationship.

[Taffy]

it's a birthing of truth from "within" us.

ALWAYS~ i for one evry rarely read others Nate, even so, when others thoughts witness what ive been shown certainly Bears witness~

[Molly]

I don't have time right now to go into much detail to try to answer the question . . .maybe in an hour or so, but for now,

I find it interesting that when we come to a loss of understand, we tend to lean toward the words of another with which we treat as one would with a piece of clothing in a thrift store . . .we try on the words of another and see how they fit and whether or not it agrees with our identity and such . . .sometimes we like the shirt, but there's a loose string that needs to be acknowledged, or there's a wrinkle that needs to be ironed out . . .or . . .we like the fit but the color just looks terrible on us  . . .so we take it back off and continue sifting through the writings and comments of other people until we can find something that suits us.

But what if the kingdom of God isn't something you can borrow from someone else .. .what if the kingdom of God is a garment that is meant only for one individual . . .instead of wearing someone else's ideals . . .who do 'YOU' say that I am???  We try to force answers, we try to manipulate knowledge to uncover knowledge . . .but again, spiritual truth doesn't come by way of flesh and blood . .. it's a birthing of truth from "within" us.

Gotta go, but I'll try to answer the other question later.

You're right.  You can't borrow it from someone else.   Good point.

But, it's always nice to have a witness to what you yourself have experienced and know to be true.

I think we are each talking about our experiences of it---and we seem to disagree at the moment.

Hopefully, not forever.

Pretty much everything Eby says in his article describes my experience of it.

[Taffy]

~ This is Prestons TAKE Fine~

[jabcat]

found this interesting.  he appears to look at the big picture, considering different angles and possibilities.

http://www.sigler.org/shofar/janeleade/egintro.htm

excerpt;    "Preston Eby, P.O. Box 371240, El Paso, TX 79937, has excellent writings on this subject, and after speaking with him while in El Paso on our last trip, and after reading and studying those writings, I agree with his conclusions concerning Satan, that old (ancient) serpent, the Devil. His contention is that, as the Bible states, Satan is a spirit; the spirit which now works in the children of disobedience. But this spirit works through man's carnal mind. That doesn't make it any less a spirit, for we are told that we must be renewed in the spirit of our minds (Eph.4:23)".

He also says;  "Therefore, let the reader be led of the Lord as to those with whom he might seek to share these things. They are not for all. While there are those who seek the recognition and admiration of others through their great revelation and understanding of deep things, let us realize that we are called to be stewards of the mysteries of God, and one must be initiated into the mysteries of God."

Blessings.

I'm missing the intent of your post, jabcat.

Are you saying: Don't throw pearls before swine?

That's  probably the least focus of my post.     Thanks for asking/clarifying.

Main focus;  "after speaking with him [Preston] while in El Paso on our last trip, and after reading and studying those writings, I agree with his conclusions concerning Satan, that old (ancient) serpent, the Devil. His contention is that, as the Bible states, Satan is a spirit; the spirit which now works in the children of disobedience. But this spirit works through  man's carnal mind [not man's carnal mind, works through]. That doesn't make it any less a spirit.." 

agreed here.

[jabcat]

...but also agree Christ, crucified, risen.  Many other doctrinal issues important, but secondary.  Not to be dismissed, but also not the main focus.   

[shawn]

I don't have time right now to go into much detail to try to answer the question . . .maybe in an hour or so, but for now,

I find it interesting that when we come to a loss of understand, we tend to lean toward the words of another with which we treat as one would with a piece of clothing in a thrift store . . .we try on the words of another and see how they fit and whether or not it agrees with our identity and such . . .sometimes we like the shirt, but there's a loose string that needs to be acknowledged, or there's a wrinkle that needs to be ironed out . . .or . . .we like the fit but the color just looks terrible on us  . . .so we take it back off and continue sifting through the writings and comments of other people until we can find something that suits us.

But what if the kingdom of God isn't something you can borrow from someone else .. .what if the kingdom of God is a garment that is meant only for one individual . . .instead of wearing someone else's ideals . . .who do 'YOU' say that I am???  We try to force answers, we try to manipulate knowledge to uncover knowledge . . .but again, spiritual truth doesn't come by way of flesh and blood . .. it's a birthing of truth from "within" us.

Gotta go, but I'll try to answer the other question later.

Once in awhile I feel the bombshell in my spirit.  You confirmed something working within me here...

But what if the kingdom of God isn't something you can borrow from someone else .. .what if the kingdom of God is a garment that is meant only for one individual.

I believe relationship is a very personal thing we have with God and our Savior.  I believe revelation to be the same kind of thing.  I believe we all get bits and pieces.  I highly doubt any of us get most of it, let alone all of it.
And in the end, it's still not about having a perfect doctrine...nit picking details...arguments through the glass darkly...it's only about relationship...and what that relationship accomplishes in us, through us, for us and for others.  The effects of this relationship pour out of us as our glasses are overflowing.  Our cup isn't full of man's doctrines, but full of his inner workings within our lives.

And THIS is what is important.  And THIS is what effects my understanding of the Bible.  Will it agree with your understanding?  Not always because we are not always in the same place.  My understanding is both a mirror and a projector.  My understanding of the Holy Scriptures allows me to look at myself...it exposes...divides...and brings darkness to light.  My understanding also effects my actions...projecting them to the world.  If I believe most everyone will suffer in eternal hellfire...that tells me something about myself...and certainly projects those beliefs to the world through action and attitude. 

[Beloved Servant]

It is refreshing that we got past the fable that adversary/satan is a fallen angel!

[Beloved Servant]

lol, it's preposterous.

[Nathan]

If all would only take the time to slow down and acknowledge what you just stated there Shawn.  We tend to get a little too pushy about who's right or wrong.  But all the while, when you deal with kingdom truths, everything is the opposite of what it "seems".  That's really the launching pad where God thrusts us into relationship with him.  It manifests on so many levels.  It manifests on our relationship with each other.  It manifests on what we're willing to allow to be demolished.  It manifests through what he's been building up.  It manifests through our action and through our ability to mature and grow deeper in him.

There is one place where I've experienced God just "showing up" in my spirit.  It's the most unexpected place, but it happens all the time.  It has nothing to do with how much I read, how deep in thought I am . . .my personal circumstances have no affect on it.  Regardless of what's been going on in my day  . . . it's for some reason, while I'm in the shower . . .I can't tell you how many times something totally so profound strikes me to the point that with shampoo in my hair and eyes, fingers full of suds . . .it still just stops me in my tracks and the next thing I know, I'm grinning ear to ear staring at a blank wall with the water running.

The righteousness he clothes us with is not clothing that "we" pick and choose as to what and when we wear them.  Nor is it something we obtain through choosing our own method of how we want to receive it.  It's all God from beginning to end.  The sound of the message is just exhilarating.  The awareness of the preciousness of it doesn't really hit until you try explaining it to someone else through conversations like . . .who is satan?  When is the rapture?  What is hell?  "When" God drops these little bombs . . .he also does this thing where he ties outside "coincidences" in with the phenomenal message he's giving.  It solidifies his truths inwardly as a result.   So when conversations like this come up where others . . .who were not with me in the shower experience . . .question the validity of what it is that I've encountered, even though my words don't convince them, their rejection doesn't cause me to question the experience.  I guess that's where I'm at pretty much all the time.

Molly you stated that it would be nice to encounter others who see things the same as you do.  Couldn't agree with you more, yet at the same time, how long does it usually take when you're with those groups that you start seeing little differences, little checks in the armor . . . I guess the question is, is there really "a" group of individuals that are "totally" in agreement with "everything" that they each embrace in their relationship with God at all?  "Can" there be such a group?  "Should" there be such a group?

I just think "that" is a perception the traditional church has inflated into being something that really isn't possible unless there is forced conformity.  I think that really is a telling statement Jesus presented to Peter when he asked "Who do YOU say that I am? . . "  'Well . . .I'm not sure who you are, but I like what Eby says about you . . ."  It never answered the question, and it never opened the door for Truth to be revealed.  The question motivates, it brings "cause" to our spirit to ENGAGE in what's about to be revealed . . .but when the mind starts "explaining logically" what it thinks the answer is . . again, spirit get's passed over for flesh and the opportunity for revelation is averted once again.

Is satan a spiritual entity?  I used to think so, but no, now I don't.  Can I explain Job?  Only by metaphor and it really does explode in me when seeing the symbolism.  For me, to take it literally is a mistake.  I have never stated that all of the Bible IS a metaphor only.  But I do believe that all of the Bible can be seen metaphorically and I even believe that the metaphors lead to deeper things than the literal ever could.  For me, the accumulation of facts only lead to a conclusion.  it's as I asked when we were discussing the tree in Revelation . . .if it is true that it is literally in Jerusalem . . .then what?  The conclusion is, it leads to a literal place . . .if it doesn't take on spiritual connotations then where is it really leading us?

Walk in the spirit, but . . .rely on the literal to cuz that's just as efficient.  Don't rely on your own understanding, but embrace your own conclusions you got through your natural reason and logic.  Doesn't that create a contradiction in terms?

They say Job is the oldest book in the Bible.  They say it was to have happened back in the early days because they base that on how the original text was constructed.  It is assumed that it is a real story.  There is no proof that it is and who's to say that the person that wrote it may have taken liberty of their imagination as to how this all came about.  So where is the life in the message if all I got out of it is the devil is real?  "If" God is light and in him there is no darkness or shadows of turning, why then do we try to make a logical assumption in proclaiming that light created darkness? 

When the earth was created, God didn't create darkness on it, it just "was".  Is there darkness in the spirit realm?  I would have to say no.  Darkness only pertains to the things of the earth.  It is the nature of this realm for darkness to flourish.  What Scripture "does" state is, God divided light "from" darkness.  When light appears. darkness flees.  That's the nature of this realm.  So . . .if satan is darkness, he can't be in the spirit realm of God.  In fact, did Jesus not say he saw satan fall as lightning to the earth for there was NO PLACE FOUND for him in heaven.

It was said that some can see Job plain as day in the literal.  Satan can approach God in all his glory where it's all light and no darkness can exist, and he can casually converse with him . . .you would rather have us accept that rather than realize that from Genesis to Revelation it's the same story about the relationship between God and man with Jesus as the centerpiece.  There are no other players . . God . . .Adam . . . .and Jesus, the last Adam.  Everything else is what goes on "in" that relationship.  What goes on "in" man.  The story is about how Adam was separated and become bound as a result of his misaligned relationship.  And Jesus paying the price for Adam's rebellion so that the relationship between God and Adam could be restored.  Satan is what is going on "in" Adam . . .it's all the inner workings of what is going on with in all of us.  And how we're all redeemed back to Him.

But when you become distracted by individual pieces of the inner workings, it leads us off the track of where the true emphasis should be.  It should never be on the devil, satan or the dragon, serpent, bottomless pit, demons, hell . . . .good grief . .. how easily we derail ourselves from the true message of what God has already accomplished IN us.

Out of time again.

[Beloved Servant]

OK, Nathan,
But you're ignoring the fact that a whole doctrine has been built around Hell and if that were not so the Tentmaker Ministry would not exist and we would not be having this conversation.

[micah7:9]

It is refreshing that we got past the fable that adversary/satan is a fallen angel!

I dare say old boy that it has again, just been put on pause.

[micah7:9]

Because it is all in our mind and heart...

No, it's not all in my mind and heart.   God is out there, existing independently of me.  So is Satan.

Molly God is in You, and you are in Him, He is not dependent on us, but we are not independent from Him

  :happyclap:Amen

What I mean to say is--God exists with or without me or all the people on the face of the earth.

[jabcat]

We tend to get a little too pushy about who's right or wrong.

Amen (raises hand).

  Couldn't agree with you more, yet at the same time, how long does it usually take when you're with those groups that you start seeing little differences, little checks in the armor . . . 

Agreed.  Unity, with our differences, can be difficult.

when the mind starts "explaining logically" what it thinks the answer is . . again, spirit get's passed over for flesh and the opportunity for revelation is averted once again.

I question that our whole mind is enmity...the carnal part is, but the mind of Christ at work in us, not so.  The mind of Christ must be tied to the Spirit, so not so sure "spiritual thinking" is a bad thing.  Now, the challenge is...

who's to say that the person that wrote it may have taken liberty of their imagination as to how this all came about.

The Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 1:20,21    First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Blessings.

[Molly]

This is a description of the divine council in the holy mountain of God :


6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. [Job 1]


And this is a prophecy of when we take our rightful positions in said assembly as brothers of Jesus:


I will declare your name to my brothers. In the midst of the assembly I will praise you. [Psa 22:22]

[micah7:9]

Replying to Nathan post #164
". . . I guess the question is, is there really "a" group of individuals that are "totally" in agreement with "everything" that they each embrace in their relationship with God at all?  "Can" there be such a group?  "Should" there be such a group?" Nathan

Yep and the group is revealed in Rev.2 and 3 He who OVERCOMERS

"When the earth was created, God didn't create darkness on it, it just "was".  Is there darkness in the spirit realm?  I would have to say no.  Darkness only pertains to the things of the earth.  It is the nature of this realm for darkness to flourish.  What Scripture "does" state is, God divided light "from" darkness.  When light appears. darkness flees.  That's the nature of this realm.  So . . .if satan is darkness, he can't be in the spirit realm of God.  In fact, did Jesus not say he saw satan fall as lightning to the earth for there was NO PLACE FOUND for him in heaven." Nathan

There is much to be found in darkness, and I do not reason that the adversary/satan is darkness.
Psa 139:12 Even darkness, it is not darkening to You, And the night, as the day, is giving light; Darkness is as light."
Isa 45:3 And I give to you treasures of darkness. And those buried in concealment will I open for you, that you may know that I, Yahweh Elohim, calling you by your name, am the Elohim of Israel."

"It was said that some can see Job plain as day in the literal.  Satan can approach God in all his glory where it's all light and no darkness can exist, and he can casually converse with him . . .you would rather have us accept that rather than realize that from Genesis to Revelation it's the same story about the relationship between God and man with Jesus as the centerpiece.  There are no other players . . God . . .Adam . . . .and Jesus, the last Adam.  Everything else is what goes on "in" that relationship.  What goes on "in" man.  The story is about how Adam was separated and become bound as a result of his misaligned relationship.  And Jesus paying the price for Adam's rebellion so that the relationship between God and Adam could be restored.  Satan is what is going on "in" Adam . . .it's all the inner workings of what is going on with in all of us.  And how we're all redeemed back to Him." Nathan

I believe that the book of Job is a parable, as I have said before as well, I believe the whole Bible is a parable. Jesus only spoke in parables.
" Satan can approach God in all his glory where it's all light and no darkness can exist, and he can casually converse with him . " Nathan
Where do you get this stuff?

" There are no other players . . God . . .Adam . . . .and Jesus..." Nathan
Yes a true statement.
There have only been two men in the world... man/adam and Jesus Christ.

Rom 5:19  for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
1Co 15:21  for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead,
1Co 15:22  for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,

"But when you become distracted by individual pieces of the inner workings, it leads us off the track of where the true emphasis should be.  It should never be on the devil, satan or the dragon, serpent, bottomless pit, demons, hell . . . .good grief . .. how easily we derail ourselves from the true message of what God has already accomplished IN us.

"It should never be on the devil, satan or the dragon, serpent, bottomless pit, demons, hell . . . .good grief . ." Nathan
Then dont bring that stuff up, simple.

" how easily we derail ourselves from the true message of what God has already accomplished IN us" Nathan

Now just hold that thought and you wills sleep well and not have to give much thought to the other stuff.....THE TRUE MESSAGE OF WHAT GOD HAS ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED IN US!!!

Now that is the Good News. As Frank Sinatra sang in "New York New York"  START SPREADIN THE NEWS!!!!!!!

[Taffy]

This is a description of the divine council in the holy mountain of God :


6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. [Job 1]


And this is a prophecy of when we take our rightful positions in said assembly as brothers of Jesus:


I will declare your name to my brothers. In the midst of the assembly I will praise you. [Psa 22:22]

you Know all Things are Played out in the spirit before hand as all is complete before Its Began, being walked out in the earth~, as we the sons[ stars] who sang For Joy~theres More going in these verses Molly then we see with the Natural eye~~ If Im given to see a Clearer Picture and word  it aright~ ill come back share~~~#

[micah7:9]

We tend to get a little too pushy about who's right or wrong.

Amen (raises hand).

  Couldn't agree with you more, yet at the same time, how long does it usually take when you're with those groups that you start seeing little differences, little checks in the armor . . . 

Agreed.  Unity, with our differences, can be difficult.

when the mind starts "explaining logically" what it thinks the answer is . . again, spirit get's passed over for flesh and the opportunity for revelation is averted once again.

I question that our whole mind is enmity...the carnal part is, but the mind of Christ at work in us, not so.  The mind of Christ must be tied to the Spirit, so not so sure "spiritual thinking" is a bad thing.  Now, the challenge is...

who's to say that the person that wrote it may have taken liberty of their imagination as to how this all came about.

The Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 1:20,21    First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Blessings.

2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation."
I understand this verse to mean that any verse that we are given to bring forth, must have at least a witness of two or three other verses that assist the meaning. I used to believe that "one's own interpretation," was just opinion.

[Molly]

This is a description of the divine council in the holy mountain of God :


6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. [Job 1]


And this is a prophecy of when we take our rightful positions in said assembly as brothers of Jesus:


I will declare your name to my brothers. In the midst of the assembly I will praise you. [Psa 22:22]

you Know all Things are Played out in the spirit before hand as all is complete before Its Began, being walked out in the earth~, as we the sons[ stars] who sang For Joy~theres More going in these verses Molly then we see with the Natural eye~~ If Im given to see a Clearer Picture and word  it aright~ ill come back share~~~#

I'm thinking we are not those sons mentioned in Job.  I don't want to start more discord lol but we will take our position among that group when we receive our full inheritance in Christ.  We will replace those wicked sons described in Eph 6 who are currently causing so much trouble in the world during this dark age--the principalities, rulers,  and wickedness in high places that we are to wrestle with now.

But, that's me.

[CHB]

Well I wouldn't characterize it the way you just did lol, but yes I believe that God was meeting with his divine council [the sons of God] and Satan was one of the group [that word in the Old Testament is a title, like the Prosecutor] and God and Satan had a discussion about Job.

Yes, I believe that literally took place just as described.  There is a ton of information in just that small piece of it.

But, you see, I can read it literally and have it make perfect sense, but you still cannot show me how to transpose the carnal mind for Satan in those verses and have it make any sense.

Guess what Molly, I agree with you. I believe Satan is a spiritual being and not our minds. I don't believe Satan is a fallen angel though.

CHB

[micah7:9]

Well I wouldn't characterize it the way you just did lol, but yes I believe that God was meeting with his divine council [the sons of God] and Satan was one of the group [that word in the Old Testament is a title, like the Prosecutor] and God and Satan had a discussion about Job.

Yes, I believe that literally took place just as described.  There is a ton of information in just that small piece of it.

But, you see, I can read it literally and have it make perfect sense, but you still cannot show me how to transpose the carnal mind for Satan in those verses and have it make any sense.

Guess what Molly, I agree with you. I believe Satan is a spiritual being and not our minds. I don't believe Satan is a fallen angel though.

CHB

 

[jabcat]

2 Peter 1:20,21    First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

I had some questions about this verse, the "prophecy" part, so did some checking. 

prophecy;  propheteia, Gr.     a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden - The New Testament Greek Lexicon 

[Beloved Servant]

A suppose a prophet never said:
                                                "Oops.  "