DEMONS~

[Beloved Servant]

.....he has his own agenda'programmed' in.....like instinct. Made so by God,ultimately under God's control....

So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"

So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"

[shawn]

Post the verses you are talking about so we can look at them.  Since it's your point, I would rather not have to go looking for the verses.

But, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus...there is also very specific conversations...and very descriptive verses about suffering.  Does that also mean this is literal and we should fear hellfire?

[Molly]

.....he has his own agenda'programmed' in.....like instinct. Made so by God,ultimately under God's control....

So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"

So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"

Sheila answered that in her post.  She said [sorry for the transposiition Sheila lol]  that God is diminishing Satan and his demons at the same time he is exalting us.


So Satan goes from a spirit being with a lot of power  to a nobody dust eater, and we go from a no-people to the sons of the living God.

[Molly]

Post the verses you are talking about so we can look at them.  Since it's your point, I would rather not have to go looking for the verses.

But, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus...there is also very specific conversations...and very descriptive verses about suffering.  Does that also mean this is literal and we should fear hellfire?

We can start here:

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

 7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

 8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
--Job 1

[Nathan]

Okay, Molly, for me, it's not carnal mind verses God . . .for me, it's carnality as a force  . . .like . . . gravity . . .you can't see it but everyone is bound by it.  Carnality for me,  does to my "soul" what gravity does to my flesh.  It binds you just by it's very nature.  When I "feed" into it, then my mind "becomes" carnally driven, thus, it is my carnal mind that I speak of.

I think what Sheila was trying to point out was, we understand that the rich man and Lazarus is a parable that people have done the same as what you're doing with Job.  They use "pieces" of the whole to build another doctrine that is indirectly connected to the original context.  The story of Lazarus and the rich man is not meant to be the platform for one to build a doctrine on what hell is like any more than Job is.  The context of Job was pertaining to faith.

Now, I will say this, in all of my demolition of old beliefs, the Job thing has always been one that hasn't been as crystal clear as other aspects to the topic of satan have been.  Revelation of truth isn't an "on"/"off" switch that you can flip whenever you want a quick response or defense.  I don't build my belief on who satan by what Scripture APPEARS to say anymore than I build my belief in who I am in Christ according to what "I THINK" Scripture says.

This entire thing is built on faith, not proof.  So please keep that in mind when pressing in for "proof". 

All I can say to this is, when we base our lives on the sound within us, it elevates us to see through grace rather than knowledge.  And as such, everything has changed.  I don't have all the answers to the appearances of what we "think" it is to be saying, but I do know from the perspective of grace that the serpent is not what we've been taught and neither is satan.  By faith I've received that and by faith I intend to grow deeper into the maturity of these things so that continual understanding of the gray areas as you're into now will eventually become clear.

[Beloved Servant]

.....he has his own agenda'programmed' in.....like instinct. Made so by God,ultimately under God's control....

So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"

So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"

Sheila answered that in her post.  She said [sorry for the transposiition Sheila lol]  that God is diminishing Satan and his demons at the same time he is exalting us.


So Satan goes from a spirit being with a lot of power  to a nobody dust eater, and we go from a no-people to the sons of the living God.

Sorry, no, that does not answer the question.
Enoch fables are not allowed.
Is the Adversary a fallen angel?

[jabcat]

Bro. Nathan, you may be completely right.  But I gotsa querstion.  What if by faith you're wrong?  What if "by faith" you "received" "something", that was a just a little off-kilter...you kept "pressing in" to that, which eventually actually led you away from sound doctrine on a particular matter?  How would you resolve that?

Now, the reason I ask is, I believe 2 things about that.    I believe it's just as you say, that we can base all our beliefs ONLY on what's written AS WE understand them, WITHOUT being given Spirit revelation on the truth within.  So we can be off kilter in that direction.  However, I also believe there's a part of all of us as human beings that can be deceived, tricked into believing our own imaginations.   That's why I personally try to live by both what is written and what is revealed.  I'm not saying I'm good at it!  I'm saying that's what I believe.

Would you have some thoughts on that?  If so, please take a moment, don't be automatically defensive of your current beliefs, and realize I'm asking an honest question.  Thanks, James.

[Beloved Servant]

God promises His Spirit will lead us to Truth.
Faith is the path.

[Molly]

Okay, Molly, for me, it's not carnal mind verses God . . .for me, it's carnality as a force  . . .like . . . gravity . . .you can't see it but everyone is bound by it.  Carnality for me,  does to my "soul" what gravity does to my flesh.  It binds you just by it's very nature.  When I "feed" into it, then my mind "becomes" carnally driven, thus, it is my carnal mind that I speak of.

I think what Sheila was trying to point out was, we understand that the rich man and Lazarus is a parable that people have done the same as what you're doing with Job.  They use "pieces" of the whole to build another doctrine that is indirectly connected to the original context.  The story of Lazarus and the rich man is not meant to be the platform for one to build a doctrine on what hell is like any more than Job is.  The context of Job was pertaining to faith.

Now, I will say this, in all of my demolition of old beliefs, the Job thing has always been one that hasn't been as crystal clear as other aspects to the topic of satan have been.  Revelation of truth isn't an "on"/"off" switch that you can flip whenever you want a quick response or defense.  I don't build my belief on who satan by what Scripture APPEARS to say anymore than I build my belief in who I am in Christ according to what "I THINK" Scripture says.

This entire thing is built on faith, not proof.  So please keep that in mind when pressing in for "proof". 

All I can say to this is, when we base our lives on the sound within us, it elevates us to see through grace rather than knowledge.  And as such, everything has changed.  I don't have all the answers to the appearances of what we "think" it is to be saying, but I do know from the perspective of grace that the serpent is not what we've been taught and neither is satan.  By faith I've received that and by faith I intend to grow deeper into the maturity of these things so that continual understanding of the gray areas as you're into now will eventually become clear.

well, I'm not denying the existence of the carnal mind or how it operates relative to God.

But, like I said, back in the day, when I felt I needed to know these things because I had a lot of evil coming at me from three different sources, and I decided I had to go to the expert on evil and how to handle it, so I read Job, and I saw for one, that Satan is real.

So, this was something I needed to know for very practical reasons because I needed to know what to do about these evil attacks that I could no longer handle with my own resources.   This was during the period when I was starting to rebuild relationship with God, or more accurately, He with me, and I didn't know anything about anything.

My experience since then has never disabused me of the first thing I learned about this subject--that Satan is real.

[Molly]

.....he has his own agenda'programmed' in.....like instinct. Made so by God,ultimately under God's control....

So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"

So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"

Sheila answered that in her post.  She said [sorry for the transposiition Sheila lol]  that God is diminishing Satan and his demons at the same time he is exalting us.


So Satan goes from a spirit being with a lot of power  to a nobody dust eater, and we go from a no-people to the sons of the living God.

Sorry, no, that does not answer the question.
Enoch fables are not allowed.
Is the Adversary a fallen angel?

That's an Enoch fable? lol

That's right out of the Bible.

[shawn]

Post the verses you are talking about so we can look at them.  Since it's your point, I would rather not have to go looking for the verses.

But, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus...there is also very specific conversations...and very descriptive verses about suffering.  Does that also mean this is literal and we should fear hellfire?

We can start here:

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

 7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

 8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
--Job 1

I'm not quite sure what the question is...but I suppose you believe this is a literal conversation.  I will answer your question with a question.  What makes you believe this is a literal conversation?  If it's literal...you are telling me that God literally plays games with the devil?  You believe God has conversations with satan, and uses His best believers to prove points to the devil?  Does this makes sense to you?  Are we merely chess pieces?  Does God and the devil play games with our spirits? 

Or does this make more sense...that carnality (either individually or as a force) is everywhere...literally up, down and all around the earth...showing up everywhere.  And God uses it as a refiners fire to test and purify even the most devout...that no one is immune.  We each will face our Job moment...and that this book is to be seen as discussing events that happen on the individual as well as the universal levels.

Which one makes more sense to you?  My spirit has a tough time accepting the first scenerio.

[jabcat]

God promises His Spirit will lead us to Truth.
Faith is the path.

Yes, I agree.  But are you ever wrong about anything?  (I am).

[shawn]

Bro. Nathan, you may be completely right.  But I gotsa querstion.  What if by faith you're wrong?  What if "by faith" you "received" "something", that was a just a little off-kilter...you kept "pressing in" to that, which eventually actually led you away from sound doctrine on a particular matter?  How would you resolve that?

Now, the reason I ask is, I believe 2 things about that.    I believe it's just as you say, that we can base all our beliefs ONLY on what's written AS WE understand them, WITHOUT being given Spirit revelation on the truth within.  So we can be off kilter in that direction.  However, I also believe there's a part of all of us as human beings that can be deceived, tricked into believing our own imaginations.   That's why I personally try to live by both what is written and what is revealed.  I'm not saying I'm good at it!  I'm saying that's what I believe.

Would you have some thoughts on that?  If so, please take a moment, don't be automatically defensive of your current beliefs, and realize I'm asking an honest question.  Thanks, James.

Not to speak for Nathan...because this question actually hit home with me.  But, me personally...I don't believe Jesus died on the Cross to give us perfect doctrine.  He died on the Cross to reconcil us to the Father.  If someone believes satan is a being and others believe he is a force...how does that change anything?  It doesn't.  When looking at these kinds of matters...I look at the fruit it produces in my life.  That points me to truth.

[jabcat]

 

OK, I much like your thoughts.

Agreed about Jesus and relationship.

But......we're also instructed to pursue, hold fast to, and contend for sound doctrine.  Paul spent much time instructing about that...not to be carried away by every wind of doctrine, etc., etc.   So it seems like it is important? 

[jabcat]

That's one thing that concerns me about either/or...

"the whole counsel"...

[Beloved Servant]

.....he has his own agenda'programmed' in.....like instinct. Made so by God,ultimately under God's control....

So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"

So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"

Sheila answered that in her post.  She said [sorry for the transposiition Sheila lol]  that God is diminishing Satan and his demons at the same time he is exalting us.


So Satan goes from a spirit being with a lot of power  to a nobody dust eater, and we go from a no-people to the sons of the living God.

Sorry, no, that does not answer the question.
Enoch fables are not allowed.
Is the Adversary a fallen angel?

That's an Enoch fable? lol

That's right out of the Bible.

And, yet still... Is Satan a fallen angel ???????????????????

[Molly]

Post the verses you are talking about so we can look at them.  Since it's your point, I would rather not have to go looking for the verses.

But, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus...there is also very specific conversations...and very descriptive verses about suffering.  Does that also mean this is literal and we should fear hellfire?

We can start here:

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

 7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

 8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
--Job 1

I'm not quite sure what the question is...but I suppose you believe this is a literal conversation.  I will answer your question with a question.  What makes you believe this is a literal conversation?  If it's literal...you are telling me that God literally plays games with the devil?  You believe God has conversations with satan, and uses His best believers to prove points to the devil?  Does this makes sense to you?  Are we merely chess pieces?  Does God and the devil play games with our spirits? 

Or does this make more sense...that carnality (either individually or as a force) is everywhere...literally up, down and all around the earth...showing up everywhere.  And God uses it as a refiners fire to test and purify even the most devout...that no one is immune.  We each will face our Job moment...and that this book is to be seen as discussing events that happen on the individual as well as the universal levels.

Which one makes more sense to you?  My spirit has a tough time accepting the first scenerio.

Well I wouldn't characterize it the way you just did lol, but yes I believe that God was meeting with his divine council [the sons of God] and Satan was one of the group [that word in the Old Testament is a title, like the Prosecutor] and God and Satan had a discussion about Job.

Yes, I believe that literally took place just as described.  There is a ton of information in just that small piece of it.

But, you see, I can read it literally and have it make perfect sense, but you still cannot show me how to transpose the carnal mind for Satan in those verses and have it make any sense.

[jabcat]

Yes, I believe that literally took place just as described.  There is a ton of information in just that small piece of it.

But, you see, I can read it literally and have it make perfect sense, but you still cannot show me how to transpose the carnal mind for Satan in those verses and have it make any sense.

Not that I necessarily agree with everything Mr. Eby writes (often, probably because I'm just not at a place of seeing it yet).  So no, I'm not saying he has the final word!   However, many seem to respect his insight, and I'd say in his article posted above, he'd see much the same way.   

[micah7:9]

ok, ok.  sheesh. 



My brethren, let me say, be like Christ at all times. Imitate him in "public." Most of us live in some sort of public capacity—many of us are called to work before our fellow-men every day. We are watched; our words are caught; our lives are examined—taken to pieces. The eagle-eyed, argus-eyed world observes everything we do, and sharp critics are upon us. Let us live the life of Christ in public. Let us take care that we exhibit our Master, and not ourselves—so that we can say, "It is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me."

—Charles Spurgeon

Good words from Spurgeon. I might also say that I read much of Moody and Spurgeon many years ago as a "babe" found out years later that like Lewis, Moody and Spurgeon were earthy preachers, they new what the Bible said but mainly had no real I thoughts of what the Bible taught. But they did well in the world of religion. I, me personally have no longer a use for them, but thats just me.

[Molly]

Yes, I believe that literally took place just as described.  There is a ton of information in just that small piece of it.

But, you see, I can read it literally and have it make perfect sense, but you still cannot show me how to transpose the carnal mind for Satan in those verses and have it make any sense.

Not that I necessarily agree with everything Mr. Eby writes (often, probably because I'm just not at a place of seeing it yet).  So no, I'm not saying he has the final word!   However, many seem to respect his insight, and I'd say in his article posted above, he'd see much the same way.   

What article?

[Beloved Servant]

What article?

Ditto.

[jabcat]

Told you sometimes I'm wrong.   Oops. 

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/serpent/Serpent.htm

[jabcat]

maybe i put that link in the wrong thread!  silly

[micah7:9]

.....he has his own agenda'programmed' in.....like instinct. Made so by God,ultimately under God's control....

So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"

So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"

Sheila answered that in her post.  She said [sorry for the transposiition Sheila lol]  that God is diminishing Satan and his demons at the same time he is exalting us.


So Satan goes from a spirit being with a lot of power  to a nobody dust eater, and we go from a no-people to the sons of the living God.

Sorry, no, that does not answer the question.
Enoch fables are not allowed.
Is the Adversary a fallen angel?

That's an Enoch fable? lol

That's right out of the Bible.

And, yet still... Is Satan a fallen angel ???????????????????

No.

[Beloved Servant]

http://www.godfire.net/Traducer.html