DEMONS~

[Molly]

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

--Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)

I dont believe certain folk mentioned satan not being real~ as the carnal mind is~but as entity , thats another matter~Taffy[ 2011~ Nov 3rd]

I don't remember Satan in the garden or Satan in Job 1 being labeled as the carnal mind of man or if such an inference would be even possible within the context.

Many things are Hidden Molly# "I will open a Dark saying[ parable] upon a Harp~ Shalom

Yes but that doesn't mean I can just make stuff up and insist that others believe it's true because it's 'hidden'.

The argument has to stand and fall on its own merit.   How do you read this passage?

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

 7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

 8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

--Job 1


Is that the carnal mind of man meeting in the council  of God with the other sons of God?   Maybe the carnal mind of one of Job's enemies?  I thought the carnal mind was enmity to God and couldn't follow God's orders, but here Satan is constrained by God.  So how does that work?

So the carnal mind of man is one of the sons of God?

Or should we just dismiss Job because it doesn't fit the theory?

[Beloved Servant]

Beloved, God's spirit walks in man upon the earth,too.

So, the adversary is within man?
Every man, at the exact same time?
He is omnipresent, as the Lord?

[sheila]

He goes to and fro...in the manner of spirit[no one knows where he come from or where he goes]   ex..entered Judas to fascilitate Christ's death...spoke through Peter

  in opposition to God's will for Christ.   Like Legion said 'we are many'

[Molly]

Beloved, God's spirit walks in man upon the earth,too.

So, the adversary is within man?
Every man, at the exact same time?
He is omnipresent, as the Lord?

What did Jesus say?

If you sweep the house clean,[implied: and leave it empty,]  7 times the number of demons will move in.



 24When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dtry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

 25And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.

 26Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.


--Luke 11

[Beloved Servant]

Are demons, then, under the rule of the adversary or do they act independently?
How do they know when and where to "move in?"

[Beloved Servant]

Is God perpetually saying:

Have you considered my servant Dave?
Have you considered my servant Molly?
Have you considered my servant Sheila?

...ad infinitum?

[sheila]

.....he has his own agenda'programmed' in.....like instinct. Made so by God,ultimately under God's control.... as God's Holy spirit cause us to will and to do

   His good pleasure...so,too, the contrary spirit incites against these things.

    does the axe exalt its self against He that weilds it? Not for long[he shows himself as god in the temple,exalting himself against the prince of the hosts]

[shawn]

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

--Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)

You can also make a clever little statement about hell in the same regard.  Doesn't validate it as truth.

[shawn]

Demons do not exist any more than gods do, being only the products of the psychic activity of man.
--Sigmund Freud

 

lol

I have a question for those who do believe satan etc. is just our mind; first of all, that's how you understand it, I see it differently, and hopefully that's what we're doing here - discussing and attempting to learn of each other (mostly from the Lord) and not insulting or arguing (let it be so for me).  My honest question is, what is your understanding of Job's situation, when God was approached and asked for permission to buffet him?  Did someone's mind approach God, and God gave that person's mind the authority to destroy everything he had in a day?  And someone's mind was able to perform all that carnage?   (It sounds like Job was pretty much sitting in one place that day.)  Or do you have some other understanding of that?

I personally believe it was the spiritual entity God created as His tool to do His purposes that approached God.  Again, I'll say it again...I believe the mind has a lot to do with our being, and is a significant part of our warfare.  But I believe there's more to it than that.   

When looking at the parable of the rich man and Lazarus does that mean there is a literal hell?  Do you take the story of Job as a literal event or a parable?  Or maybe a parable written within a literal event?

[Beloved Servant]

.....he has his own agenda'programmed' in.....like instinct. Made so by God,ultimately under God's control....

So, Satan is not a "fallen angel?"

[shawn]

Beloved, God's spirit walks in man upon the earth,too.

So, the adversary is within man?
Every man, at the exact same time?
He is omnipresent, as the Lord?

Great point.

I see some suggestions that even Christians can be under the influence of this satanic being.  So, the temple of the Holy Spirit can be inhabited by both Christ and another spiritual entity which is evil.  This has never made sense to me.

[shawn]

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

--Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)

I dont believe certain folk mentioned satan not being real~ as the carnal mind is~but as entity , thats another matter~Taffy[ 2011~ Nov 3rd]

I don't remember Satan in the garden or Satan in Job 1 being labeled as the carnal mind of man or if such an inference would be even possible within the context.

Many things are Hidden Molly# "I will open a Dark saying[ parable] upon a Harp~ Shalom

Yes but that doesn't mean I can just make stuff up and insist that others believe it's true because it's 'hidden'.

The argument has to stand and fall on its own merit.   How do you read this passage?

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

 7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

 8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

--Job 1


Is that the carnal mind of man meeting in the council  of God with the other sons of God?   Maybe the carnal mind of one of Job's enemies?  I thought the carnal mind was enmity to God and couldn't follow God's orders, but here Satan is constrained by God.  So how does that work?

So the carnal mind of man is one of the sons of God?

Or should we just dismiss Job because it doesn't fit the theory?

Why can't this be personification?  Should we dismiss the parable of the rich man and Lazarus because it has hell fire notions in it?

[Molly]

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

--Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)

I dont believe certain folk mentioned satan not being real~ as the carnal mind is~but as entity , thats another matter~Taffy[ 2011~ Nov 3rd]

I don't remember Satan in the garden or Satan in Job 1 being labeled as the carnal mind of man or if such an inference would be even possible within the context.

Many things are Hidden Molly# "I will open a Dark saying[ parable] upon a Harp~ Shalom

Yes but that doesn't mean I can just make stuff up and insist that others believe it's true because it's 'hidden'.

The argument has to stand and fall on its own merit.   How do you read this passage?

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

 7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

 8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

--Job 1


Is that the carnal mind of man meeting in the council  of God with the other sons of God?   Maybe the carnal mind of one of Job's enemies?  I thought the carnal mind was enmity to God and couldn't follow God's orders, but here Satan is constrained by God.  So how does that work?

So the carnal mind of man is one of the sons of God?

Or should we just dismiss Job because it doesn't fit the theory?

Why can't this be personification?  Should we dismiss the parable of the rich man and Lazarus because it has hell fire notions in it?

Jesus talked in parables and he admitted he was talking in parables and he told us why.

But there's no reason to believe the Book of Job is a parable, unless you think the whole Bible is a parable, which leads to other problems.

And, if this section on Satan is a parable, what does it mean from that point of view.  Or even a metaphor.  No one has answered my questions yet.

Probably because these questions cannot be answered with any other point of view than Satan is a real spirit being.

[Taffy]

But there's no reason to believe the Book of Job is a parable, unless you think the whole Bible is a parable, which leads to other problems.

the Bible is pretty much a parable~ so Molly Just because YOU say Job isnt parbolic# doesnt make it so~ as Beloved pointed out about Satan WALKING to and fro etc~believe what you will~ sFORthose whove yet to be enlightened to UR, Many still seing Hell as some Literal Burning Pit~#I see the lord uses the Natural to explain the spiritual~ Jonahs a parable too ##The belly of the Fish# et all## speaks again on another level~but we dont READ Jonah is a Parable do we~

[shawn]

I am sniffing a bit of arrogance from some of these posts.  I hope we can truly discuss these kinds of things without being abrasive.

If (and I truly mean if) Job is a parable (and honestly I don't know but also don't know why you assume it's historically accurate) then I can see this being a statement on how God uses the carnal mind of man to truly sift him like wheat.  Again wheat from chaff principle.  He uses the carnal mind of man to strengthen faith, and bring about spiritual maturity.

[Taffy]

I can see this being a statement on how God uses the carnal mind of man to truly sift him like wheat.  Again wheat from chaff principle.  He uses the carnal mind of man to strengthen faith, and bring about spiritual maturity.

[Taffy]

Hi Shawn# as we are told# each of Us need to be convicted in our mind~ if some feels trongly, theres no problem~

[sheila]

the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is the folly of not being rich towards God...storing up treasure in heaven...in this life.

   the rich man live a materialistic physical  life,void of spiritual things. the thirst he suffered was for the waters of eternal life in his now pathetic condition.

   Lazarus portrayed those with treasure in heaven..who had put spiritual considerations as priority in their lives. The bosom position is just that Lazarus

  realized the love and cherishing of God for him,and his hope of wonderful blessings to come at his death of physical body. The rich man was

  already spiritually dead..then physically died. Lazarus was spiritually alive and suffered in flesh due to it.

   when you seek after the material things in this world,and forsake the greater treasures of  the spiritual Kingdom of heaven...you loose out.

   fleshly oriented or spiritually oriented..physical .death...a blessing or torment? depends on your perspective


    Further light..Rich man and Lazaras......satan become rich man'all kingdoms on earth are mine'   judgement unto LOF without hope of waters of eternal life

  to quench his condition.   Lazarus,poor afflicted mankind,robbed of dominion of earth,suffers penalty in this life only..given eternal life.


     surely the chaff is the physical life[flesh counts for nothing] wheat the spiritual...then again...there are 'WEEDS" to consider

[Molly]

Still no one will answer my questions.


Is that the carnal mind of man meeting in the council  of God with the other sons of God?   Maybe the carnal mind of one of Job's enemies?  I thought the carnal mind was enmity to God and couldn't follow God's orders, but here Satan is constrained by God.  So how does that work?

Is the carnal mind of man one of the sons of God?

Or should we just dismiss Job because it doesn't fit the theory?

[shawn]

Hi Shawn# as we are told# each of Us need to be convicted in our mind~ if some feels trongly, theres no problem~

And I agree Taffy.  I probably see this very differently than most...but I don't believe that we are all supposed to think alike on these subjects.  I truly believe God likes the discourse and our seeking.
I do believe that we should be mindful of our egos at all times.  Before I post, I have to ask myself why am I posting.  If I posted everytime I wanted to, I would produce much natural ramblings driven
by my ego.  So, when I caution other believers, I also speak to myself. 

[shawn]

Still no one will answer my questions.


Is that the carnal mind of man meeting in the council  of God with the other sons of God?   Maybe the carnal mind of one of Job's enemies?  I thought the carnal mind was enmity to God and couldn't follow God's orders, but here Satan is constrained by God.  So how does that work?

Is the carnal mind of man one of the sons of God?

Or should we just dismiss Job because it doesn't fit the theory?

Yes, I can see personification and symbolism in all of that...and haven't really given it careful consideration.  I really have never looked at Job from this angle, but would like to do so.  But, to suggest that we would want to dismiss a book of the Bible because it does't "fit a theory" is insulting.  This is the kind of language I caution against.

When our spirit battles the carnal mind...what is that?  When temptation hits you and your spirit puts up guard...there is an inward conversation in the temple of the Holy Spirit.  Is this not the carnal mind meeting with the council of God?  I don't know...but I can certainly see it.  As for "following God's orders"...I believe God can put limitations to the destruction he allows in a believers life.  I know addiction took me to the brink of death...it left me with very little...no family life...no relationship with God...financial issues...licensing issues...depression...despair...sores...physical ailments.  My carnal leadings had destroyed my life.  But, from there I cried out to God...and He heard my cries.  Do I believe my carnal mind was constrained by God?  Yes...I believe he put some limits on the amount of destruction.  Did God repair...and even give me more than I had before addiction...oh yes!  I can so see the symbolism of this story.  I believe using the book of Job to support the notion of a fallen angel satan is like using the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to "prove" there is a hell.

[Molly]

Still no one will answer my questions.


Is that the carnal mind of man meeting in the council  of God with the other sons of God?   Maybe the carnal mind of one of Job's enemies?  I thought the carnal mind was enmity to God and couldn't follow God's orders, but here Satan is constrained by God.  So how does that work?

Is the carnal mind of man one of the sons of God?

Or should we just dismiss Job because it doesn't fit the theory?

Yes, I can see personification and symbolism in all of that...and haven't really given it careful consideration.  I really have never looked at Job from this angle, but would like to do so.  But, to suggest that we would want to dismiss a book of the Bible because it does't "fit a theory" is insulting.  This is the kind of language I caution against.

When our spirit battles the carnal mind...what is that?  When temptation hits you and your spirit puts up guard...there is an inward conversation in the temple of the Holy Spirit.  Is this not the carnal mind meeting with the council of God?  I don't know...but I can certainly see it.  As for "following God's orders"...I believe God can put limitations to the destruction he allows in a believers life.  I know addiction took me to the brink of death...it left me with very little...no family life...no relationship with God...financial issues...licensing issues...depression...despair...sores...physical ailments.  My carnal leadings had destroyed my life.  But, from there I cried out to God...and He heard my cries.  Do I believe my carnal mind was constrained by God?  Yes...I believe he put some limits on the amount of destruction.  Did God repair...and even give me more than I had before addiction...oh yes!  I can so see the symbolism of this story.  I believe using the book of Job to support the notion of a fallen angel satan is like using the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to "prove" there is a hell.

Ok, can you answer the other questions? 

Job is the book that convinced me Satan is a REAL spirit being, back in the day when I was trying to figure this stuff out.

So, I would really like to have my questions answered  by those who say Satan is the carnal mind.

[shawn]

the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is the folly of not being rich towards God...storing up treasure in heaven...in this life.

   the rich man live a materialistic physical  life,void of spiritual things. the thirst he suffered was for the waters of eternal life in his now pathetic condition.

   Lazarus portrayed those with treasure in heaven..who had put spiritual considerations as priority in their lives. The bosom position is just that Lazarus

  realized the love and cherishing of God for him,and his hope of wonderful blessings to come at his death of physical body. The rich man was

  already spiritually dead..then physically died. Lazarus was spiritually alive and suffered in flesh due to it.

   when you seek after the material things in this world,and forsake the greater treasures of  the spiritual Kingdom of heaven...you loose out.

   fleshly oriented or spiritually oriented..physical .death...a blessing or torment? depends on your perspective


    Further light..Rich man and Lazaras......satan become rich man'all kingdoms on earth are mine'   judgement unto LOF without hope of waters of eternal life

  to quench his condition.   Lazarus,poor afflicted mankind,robbed of dominion of earth,suffers penalty in this life only..given eternal life.


     surely the chaff is the physical life[flesh counts for nothing] wheat the spiritual...then again...there are 'WEEDS" to consider

And so you can see the symbolism in that parable.  And without debating your interpretation of that parable, you can also see how using that parable to "prove there is a hell"...would be short sighted at best...right?
So the question is...are we supposed to see the book of Job as a literal historical happening or a parable to teach spiritual truths?

[shawn]

Still no one will answer my questions.


Is that the carnal mind of man meeting in the council  of God with the other sons of God?   Maybe the carnal mind of one of Job's enemies?  I thought the carnal mind was enmity to God and couldn't follow God's orders, but here Satan is constrained by God.  So how does that work?

Is the carnal mind of man one of the sons of God?

Or should we just dismiss Job because it doesn't fit the theory?

Yes, I can see personification and symbolism in all of that...and haven't really given it careful consideration.  I really have never looked at Job from this angle, but would like to do so.  But, to suggest that we would want to dismiss a book of the Bible because it does't "fit a theory" is insulting.  This is the kind of language I caution against.

When our spirit battles the carnal mind...what is that?  When temptation hits you and your spirit puts up guard...there is an inward conversation in the temple of the Holy Spirit.  Is this not the carnal mind meeting with the council of God?  I don't know...but I can certainly see it.  As for "following God's orders"...I believe God can put limitations to the destruction he allows in a believers life.  I know addiction took me to the brink of death...it left me with very little...no family life...no relationship with God...financial issues...licensing issues...depression...despair...sores...physical ailments.  My carnal leadings had destroyed my life.  But, from there I cried out to God...and He heard my cries.  Do I believe my carnal mind was constrained by God?  Yes...I believe he put some limits on the amount of destruction.  Did God repair...and even give me more than I had before addiction...oh yes!  I can so see the symbolism of this story.  I believe using the book of Job to support the notion of a fallen angel satan is like using the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to "prove" there is a hell.

Ok, can you answer the other questions? 

Job is the book that convinced me Satan is a REAL spirit being, back in the day when I was trying to figure this stuff out.

So, I would really like to have my questions answered  by those who say Satan is the carnal mind.

Like I said, I haven't given this much thought.  This is merely me seeing new things in the book of Job I had never seen before.  It makes sense with what has been revealed to me through relationship.  What exactly is your question...whether the carnal mind is one of the sons of God?  List your questions clearly and in order supported by Scripture and lets see if we can discuss them with some mutual respect and love.

[Molly]

Still no one will answer my questions.


Is that the carnal mind of man meeting in the council  of God with the other sons of God?   Maybe the carnal mind of one of Job's enemies?  I thought the carnal mind was enmity to God and couldn't follow God's orders, but here Satan is constrained by God.  So how does that work?

Is the carnal mind of man one of the sons of God?

Or should we just dismiss Job because it doesn't fit the theory?

Yes, I can see personification and symbolism in all of that...and haven't really given it careful consideration.  I really have never looked at Job from this angle, but would like to do so.  But, to suggest that we would want to dismiss a book of the Bible because it does't "fit a theory" is insulting.  This is the kind of language I caution against.

When our spirit battles the carnal mind...what is that?  When temptation hits you and your spirit puts up guard...there is an inward conversation in the temple of the Holy Spirit.  Is this not the carnal mind meeting with the council of God?  I don't know...but I can certainly see it.  As for "following God's orders"...I believe God can put limitations to the destruction he allows in a believers life.  I know addiction took me to the brink of death...it left me with very little...no family life...no relationship with God...financial issues...licensing issues...depression...despair...sores...physical ailments.  My carnal leadings had destroyed my life.  But, from there I cried out to God...and He heard my cries.  Do I believe my carnal mind was constrained by God?  Yes...I believe he put some limits on the amount of destruction.  Did God repair...and even give me more than I had before addiction...oh yes!  I can so see the symbolism of this story.  I believe using the book of Job to support the notion of a fallen angel satan is like using the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to "prove" there is a hell.

Ok, can you answer the other questions? 

Job is the book that convinced me Satan is a REAL spirit being, back in the day when I was trying to figure this stuff out.

So, I would really like to have my questions answered  by those who say Satan is the carnal mind.

Like I said, I haven't given this much thought.  This is merely me seeing new things in the book of Job I had never seen before.  It makes sense with what has been revealed to me through relationship.  What exactly is your question...whether the carnal mind is one of the sons of God?  List your questions clearly and in order supported by Scripture and lets see if we can discuss them with some mutual respect and love.

Well, we are given a very specific story in Job, and a glimpse into heavenly activities going on behind the scenes.

Right now my question concerns the description of the sons of God meeting with God and Satan is among them.  And, Satan asks permission to go after Job.

So--how do you substitute the carnal mind into that description and make any sense out of it?

I see that as an actual description of something that is really happening.  But, if you want to make it metaphor or whatever, how do you do that?



Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

 7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

 8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
--Job 1