DEMONS~

[Molly]

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

--Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)

[micah7:9]

Deuteronomy 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do


So all these people are playing with their own minds?

good find and good point.  I agree.  The mind can be deceitful for sure.  Of course it's part of the equation, as documented in the scriptures.  But it's a roaring lion, seeking whom it may devour?  nah...     

I actually believe that is a terrific description of the mind that is enslaved to sin.  Self seeking, loud, abusive, hateful, slanderous, libelous, lying etc are all descriptions of the mind which is enslaved to sin.  That kind of mind can't love anyone, and hurts anything and anyone in their path.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think this is what the verse is primarily describing, or that there is no external adversary as some maintain.  One thing in the scrip I forgot to mention is, "roaming around"...

Again, I agree the mind is part of the equation, but IMO, just a part..

I believe it's often influenced by external factors...as Molly said earlier, that's why we're to put on armor.

Roaming around sounds like a predator.

Seeking whom it may devour--again a predator.

Whatever this is describing, it is taking the active role of the predator.

Are we being attacked by our own minds?  Wouldn't that make us insane?

Or are we being attacked through our minds?

What would you consider most of the garbage on television, in movies, on the radio?

The watcher and the the listener.

[micah7:9]

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

--Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)

I consider that a foolish statement. To say the the devil tricked us is to say that the Lord and Creator was duped. How silly.

[micah7:9]

Are we being attacked by our own minds? 

Or are we being attacked through our minds?

I believe it's both;   the carnal/fleshly part of our mind [the part that's not the mind of Christ] - the "natural man", and outside influences of the adversary.

A robber with a gun doesn't just represent evil.  He can really shoot you.

1Co 2:16  for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we--we have the mind of Christ.

"the carnal/fleshly part of our mind [the part that's not the mind of Christ]" are you saying the mind of Christ is two fold and is weak in part?

[jabcat]

Amen sheila.  I agree.  I believe in Spiritual things, and I believe in "spiritualizing" things - to the point that we haven't gone to an extreme - EITHER DIRECTION - and forsake sound doctrine.  Great thoughts on following the shepherd.  amen.

[jabcat]

Are we being attacked by our own minds? 

Or are we being attacked through our minds?

I believe it's both;   the carnal/fleshly part of our mind [the part that's not the mind of Christ] - the "natural man", and outside influences of the adversary.

A robber with a gun doesn't just represent evil.  He can really shoot you.

1Co 2:16  for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we--we have the mind of Christ.

"the carnal/fleshly part of our mind [the part that's not the mind of Christ]" are you saying the mind of Christ is two fold and is weak in part?

no, that's not what I'm saying.  Others can see it differently of course, but  what I'm suggesting is, and you think about it and pray about it, I could be wrong - we do have the mind of Christ.  But we also still have the fleshly nature (the carnal mind, more "in control" when not walking in the Spirit, less "in control" when we are walking according to the Spirit);  the carnal part of us that battles against the spiritual, Godly part of us.  I believe that's what Paul was experiencing when he talked about the things he would do he couldn't, and vice versa.  I tend to believe the accurate translation is "all things becoming new".  I believe we're in process, and learning to walk after the Spirit.  No, that doesn't divide the mind of Christ.  It's not His mind that's divided.  It's ours.   Admission;  I mess up over and over, day after day, in way or another.  Missing the mark, needing to love more, needing to be less offended (sorry), needing to share the Good news more and dwelling less on things of this life.  Haven't you seen anyone who claims to be totally led by the Spirit, totally hearing His voice, yet in the course of things they make mistakes?  Say things that aren't accurate?  Even sin?  Well, IMO, that's NOT the mind of Christ or the Spirit at work, that's the carnal part of us that's thinking, talking, behaving at that moment.  I believe it's why Paul talks about pursuing Godliness, Jesus said seek the Kingdom, draw nigh to God and He will draw nigh to you, etc.   If we were in totality the mind of Christ, then IMO, none of those counsels would be needed.

Now, what I'm sharing is how I understand it.  Just like everyone else on here, I'm being shaped as I go, learning little by little.  I encourage us all to share in that manner - "as I understand".  Thanks, and blessings.   

[Molly]

Demons do not exist any more than gods do, being only the products of the psychic activity of man.
--Sigmund Freud

 

[jabcat]

Demons do not exist any more than gods do, being only the products of the psychic activity of man.
--Sigmund Freud

 

lol

I have a question for those who do believe satan etc. is just our mind; first of all, that's how you understand it, I see it differently, and hopefully that's what we're doing here - discussing and attempting to learn of each other (mostly from the Lord) and not insulting or arguing (let it be so for me).  My honest question is, what is your understanding of Job's situation, when God was approached and asked for permission to buffet him?  Did someone's mind approach God, and God gave that person's mind the authority to destroy everything he had in a day?  And someone's mind was able to perform all that carnage?   (It sounds like Job was pretty much sitting in one place that day.)  Or do you have some other understanding of that?

I personally believe it was the spiritual entity God created as His tool to do His purposes that approached God.  Again, I'll say it again...I believe the mind has a lot to do with our being, and is a significant part of our warfare.  But I believe there's more to it than that.   

[micah7:9]

"...and I believe in "spiritualizing" things " Jabcat    I DO NOT believe in "spiritualizing" things. I believe that is one of the greatest errors in christian understanding.

[jabcat]

maybe we're sort of talking about 2 different things.  What I mean by that is, I'll use an earlier example.  Let's say there's a fellow standing there with a gun wanting to harm you.  By "spiritualizing" it, I mean, seeing the spiritual implications, i.e., "that man represents evil" or "he's evil personified".  But what I'm trying to say is, I personally believe although there are symbolic or spiritual implications that can be drawn from the man and the situation, that doesn't make the man not really be a man with a real gun that could blow your real head off.

Does that help explain what I mean by that?    I may actually agree with you on that in some ways, in that again, I don't think we should go too far one way or the other, and therefor be flirting with either being so "literal" or so "out there" symbolically, that we actually fail to rightly divide or miss the sound doctrine.  If there's a guy standing there with a gun, I certainly want to get all the implications out of it I'm supposed to, you know, grow from it, learn about my fear or putting myself in bad situations or understand better how God works and evil works.....but I also want to get out of his way.  :)

[micah7:9]

Are we being attacked by our own minds? 

Or are we being attacked through our minds?

I believe it's both;   the carnal/fleshly part of our mind [the part that's not the mind of Christ] - the "natural man", and outside influences of the adversary.

A robber with a gun doesn't just represent evil.  He can really shoot you.

1Co 2:16  for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we--we have the mind of Christ.

"the carnal/fleshly part of our mind [the part that's not the mind of Christ]" are you saying the mind of Christ is two fold and is weak in part?

no, that's not what I'm saying.  Others can see it differently of course, but hopefully this can be discussed rationally and pleasantly from now on, and thanks micah, I believe you will.  what I'm suggesting is, and you think about it and pray about it, I could be wrong - we do have the mind of Christ.  But we also still have the fleshly nature (the carnal mind, more "in control" when not walking in the Spirit, less "in control" when we are walking according to the Spirit);  the carnal part of us that battles against the spiritual, Godly part of us.  I believe that's what Paul was experiencing when he talked about the things he would do he couldn't, and vice versa.  I tend to believe the accurate translation is "all things becoming new".  I believe we're in process, and learning to walk after the Spirit.  No, that doesn't divide the mind of Christ.  It's not His mind that's divided.  It's ours.   Admission;  I mess up over and over, day after day, in way or another.  Missing the mark, needing to love more, needing to be less offended (sorry), needing to share the Good news more and dwelling less on things of this life.  Haven't you seen anyone who claims to be totally led by the Spirit, totally hearing His voice, yet in the course of things they make mistakes?  Say things that aren't accurate?  Even sin?  Well, IMO, that's NOT the mind of Christ or the Spirit at work, that's the carnal part of us that's thinking, talking, behaving at that moment.  I believe it's why Paul talks about pursuing Godliness, Jesus said seek the Kingdom, draw nigh to God and He will draw nigh to you, etc.   If we were in totality the mind of Christ, then IMO, none of those counsels would be needed.

Now, what I'm sharing is how I understand it.  Just like everyone else on here, I'm being shaped as I go, learning little by little.  I encourage us all to share in that manner - "as I understand".  Thanks, and blessings.

Then of a truth if what you say is true, then one does not have the mind of Christ, one only says one has the mind of Christ to fit in. Either it is the mind of Christ at work or it is what one would like to be the mind of Christ at work. The mind of Christ is able to answer satan(adversary) when the enemy comes forth to do what the enemies purpose is,  to answer just as Jesus did when He was tempted in the wilderness.  I have reasoned and learned that I have said with boldness that I have the mind of Christ, but have been humiliated time and again, that I do not have the mind of Christ. Yes we do have a long way to go. But we press on, for He loves us and it His love that will in His time, bring those hearing souls to that level of His mind.

[jabcat]

micah, another thought on the mind of Christ and our flesh/carnal mind;

brother, if you've been spiritually reborn through being given faith to believe on Jesus as your Savior, then IMO you do have the mind of Christ.  I believe we just still have the "natural", or flesh etc. that battles it.

 I doubt it was an accident :), but I saw this post just now from Nathan a long time ago, and I clipped a bit of it here.  I think it fits very well here;
Here's the post;

"For me, because I am both flesh and spirit, I see that in the spirit, sin can not enter.  So when I walk in the spirit, sin is not the topic for emphasis.  It's lost it's power over me.  It still exists in the realm of the flesh, but for those who pass from flesh to spirit inwardly even while they're in the flesh outwardly, they can live free from the power of sin both inwardly and outwardly.

But as I walk "in" the flesh, then sin abounds.  I become consumed by it because I don't "see" through God's eyes.  It's not that my flesh becomes immune to carnal things.  It's more that the power of carnality has no hold on me so as I mature more and more in Christ, the power of sin has less and less affect. 

Spiritually I am perfect... there will stil be days where my flesh not only is tempted, but it willingly sins . . .which remember, simply means I miss the mark . . .  What is the mark??  Perhaps it's the will of God for my life "today"?  When I walk in the flesh, I step out of his will . . .but even when I step out of his will, I don't have the power to alter his plan.  Redemption is already at work in every aspect of my life." - Nathan

[Molly]

I wonder you should ask me whether it is essential to keep the patient in ignorance of your own existence. That question, at least for the present phase of the struggle, has been answered for us by the High Command. Our policy, for the moment, is to conceal ourselves. Of course this has not always been so. We are really faced with a cruel dilemma. When the humans disbelieve in our existence we lose all the pleasing results of direct terrorism, and we make no magicians. On the other hand, when they believe in us, we cannot make them materialists and sceptics.

At least, not yet. I have great hopes that we shall learn in due time how to emotionalise and mythologise their science to such an extent that what is, in effect. a belief in us (though not under that name) will creep in while the human mind remains closed to belief in the Enemy. The "Life Force," the worship of sex, and some aspects of Psychoanalysis may here prove useful. If once we can produce our perfect work—the Materialist Magician, the man, not using, but veritably worshipping, what he vaguely calls "Forces" while denying the existence of "spirits"—then the end of the war will be in sight. But in the meantime we must obey our orders. I do not think you will have much difficulty in keeping the patient in the dark. The fact that "devils" are predominantly comic figures in the modern imagination will help you. If any faint suspicion of your existence begins to arise in his mind, suggest to him a picture of something in red tights, and persuade him that since he cannot believe in that (it is an old textbook method of confusing them) he therefore cannot believe in you.

--C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

[micah7:9]

maybe we're sort of talking about 2 different things.  What I mean by that is, I'll use an earlier example.  Let's say there's a fellow standing there with a gun wanting to harm you.  By "spiritualizing" it, I mean, seeing the spiritual implications, i.e., "that man represents evil" or "he's evil personified".  But what I'm trying to say is, I personally believe although there are symbolic or spiritual implications that can be drawn from the man and the situation, that doesn't make the man not really be a man with a real gun that could blow your real head off.

Does that help explain what I mean by that?    I may actually agree with you on that in some ways, in that again, I don't think we should go too far one way or the other, and therefor be flirting with either being so "literal" or so "out there" symbolically, that we actually fail to rightly divide or miss the sound doctrine.  If there's a guy standing there with a gun, I certainly want to get all the implications out of it I'm supposed to, you know, grow from it, learn about my fear or putting myself in bad situations or understand better how God works and evil works.....but I also want to get out of his way.  :)

Spiritualizing is some thing that David Copperfield does. If there is a man standing front of me with a gun, should no one or nothing interferes, I will either get shot or maybe killed or....My point is whether we want to accept it, believe it, or toss it should you be a believer in Jesus Christ by His Grace and by His faith, He will either make His presence known as His will or He will not. I may not have said that properly, but Jesus Christ is either our armor, or He is not.
I do not accept the sayings of C. S. Lewis no matter how godly they may seem.

[Molly]

To us a human is primarily food; our aim is the absorption of its will into ours, the increase of our own area of selfhood at its expense. But the obedience which the Enemy demands of men is quite a different thing. One must face the fact that all the talk about His love for men, and His service being perfect freedom, is not (as one would gladly believe) mere propaganda, but an appalling truth. He really does want to fill the universe with a lot of loathsome little replicas of Himself –creatures whose life, on its miniature scale, will be qualitatively like His own, not because he has absorbed them but because their wills freely conform to His. We want cattle who can finally become food; He wants servants who can finally become sons. We want to suck in, He wants to give out. We are empty and would be filled; He is full and flows over. Our war aim is a world in which Our Father Below has drawn all other beings into himself; the Enemy wants a world full of beings united to Him, but still distinct.-

--C.S. Lewis, Screwtape Letters

[micah7:9]

C.S Lewis.....I'd rather read D.L Moody or Charles Spurgeon......C.S. Lewis was a novelist on the same level as L. Ron Hubbard.

[Molly]

ok, ok.  sheesh. 



My brethren, let me say, be like Christ at all times. Imitate him in "public." Most of us live in some sort of public capacity—many of us are called to work before our fellow-men every day. We are watched; our words are caught; our lives are examined—taken to pieces. The eagle-eyed, argus-eyed world observes everything we do, and sharp critics are upon us. Let us live the life of Christ in public. Let us take care that we exhibit our Master, and not ourselves—so that we can say, "It is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me."

—Charles Spurgeon

[jabcat]

   pretty good words there from our Brother Spurgeon. 

[Molly]

  pretty good words there from our Brother Spurgeon.

yeah that was a good one, but probably off topic lol.

I still maintain the Screwtape Letters is a brilliant book, though, if you want to understand how Satan works in our lives [even if Micah doesn't like Lewis].

[Nathan]

Well, to bring this back "on" topic, what is a parable if it is not a natural story with a SPIRITUAL meaning?

If things aren't to be seen as "spiritualized" (not sure I even like that term either, really) when why are we even called to walk in the spirit in the first place?

If things "weren't" spritualized by Jesus himself, then why were the disciples complaining about it just as some do here?  This is nothing new.  It may be frustrating to some, but it's nothing new.  When the deep calls to the deep, there's a reason for that.  When finite minds encounter infinity, things get shaken up.  Which would we rather see happen?  Would we rather have infinity be conformed to our limitations?  Or, would we rather have our limitations expanded to be able to grow into infinity?

In Galations, Paul refers to Isaac being born into freedom and Ishmael being born under bondage . . . was he not also "spiritualizing"?

Isn't it a "good" thing to be told that there's so much more to Scripture . . .and WAY more to God than just what meets the eye???

[Molly]

God talks to us in the natural first, and if we do not believe the natural exists, then there is no foundation to stand on.

I agree Nathan that the Bible has many hidden meanings, even in the words themselves, which is why I like to look at the words.

As we keep saying, it is a very rich book.

Paul does say we can look at the hidden meaning of this story, this history, through allegory, --one thing is standing for something else: hagar for the children in bondage under the law and Sarah for the children of the promise, born to freedom.

But, this doesn't mean there was no real Ismael and no real Isaac.  For any of this to work, you have to believe these are real historical characters, that Sarah really did give birth at the age of 90--otherwise, God's promises mean nothing, and miracles don't exist.  Otherwise, it's just a fairy tale with a good moral.

[Molly]

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

--Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)

I dont believe certain folk mentioned satan not being real~ as the carnal mind is~but as entity , thats another matter~Taffy[ 2011~ Nov 3rd]

I don't remember Satan in the garden or Satan in Job 1 being labeled as the carnal mind of man or if such an inference would be even possible within the context.

The carnal mind of man is only referred to twice in the whole Bible.

[Taffy]

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

--Charles Baudelaire, "The Generous Gambler" (Feb. 1864)

I dont believe certain folk mentioned satan not being real~ as the carnal mind is~but as entity , thats another matter~Taffy[ 2011~ Nov 3rd]

I don't remember Satan in the garden or Satan in Job 1 being labeled as the carnal mind of man or if such an inference would be even possible within the context.

Many things are Hidden Molly# "I will open a Dark saying[ parable] upon a Harp~ Shalom

[Beloved Servant]

Young's Literal Translation:
And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, 'Whence comest thou?' And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, 'From going to and fro in the land, and from walking up and down on it...


So, the Adversary must be pretty tired from walking all over creation, or does he sleep too?
Is he immortal?
Does he have flesh and blood?
If he is spirit, why does he walk?
Can he only affect one person at a time?
What are his motives?
Is he angry with man; or God?
Why does he choose to walk?

[sheila]

 Beloved, God's spirit walks in man upon the earth,too.