Could we get personal about UR

[VineBranch]

I am quite new to UR.  I am also new to the notion of UR.  In the short while I have actually started to believe the tenets and insights, I have noticed that it is having a profound effect on me:  I am actually changed, as a person.  Reconciling what I knew in my heart to be true (that God would never let anyone He loved simply 'rot in hell' because they made mistakes), with what I had been told all my life (God will get you if you step out of line and there will [literally] be hell to pay ) has not been easy.  In fact, having tried to believe both these things to be true at the same time has produced a certain cognitive dissonance which has caused a lot of problems, both physically, and spiritually.

Since becoming part of this discussion community I have met a lot of knowledgable folk.  A lot of people here know of what they speak.  I am grateful that God lead me here.  I am also grateful that most of the people here are so generous with their time and knowledge.

I am also finding that the older I get the less interested I become in theology and more interested I become in people:  the personal becomes more important than the public. 

I'ld love to have a place where I could come and just say something like, "I smile more knowing that God is more interested in people than laws (just an example).  For me, knowing that God never planned on letting any of us go does actually make me a bit weepy.  It also makes me sad to think that so many people live in fear of eternal damnation needlessly and that there are people who perpetuate this myth just to keep pews filled.  I know God will draw those who are now the fearmongers among us to Himself as well, but in the present, the needless anxiety they create effects everyone they touch, and that is sad".  It would be great to say that and then hear someone else respond with, "you know when I was child I knew God loved me, yet, somehow the whole hell thing just crept in ... you know"?  The personal just means so much.

[ded2daworld]

VB - it was as if you told my story. Thank you

[onlytruth]

that was heartfelt...thank-you

[Lazarus Short]

VB, you are becoming a new creature, and as Paul said, there is no telling what you will be.  We do know that you will be like Jesus, for we know that Christ is in you (the hope of Glory).  Wow - that'll just "separate your head from your shoulders!"

[VineBranch]

Thanks L.S. (is that a slur on my common sense?  )
Speaking of separating (neat segue huh?)  I now have a totally diffent take on what Paul meant when he said:  "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,  Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:38-39) KJV

For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.  (Rom 8:38-39) ESV

I used to think he was talking to the elite, now ... I'm thinking maybe it's to everyone.

[dajomaco]

Once I discovered that hell was a lie.
I thought what else had I been taught was true was actually a lie.

I am like a new born baby figuring things out.
Figuring out what is right and wrong.

I have reaffirmed that touching a hot stove hurts.
So it might be wrong for me to touch a hot stove.

But everything is new and must be either reaffirmed,
or I must make a new assment.

[VineBranch]

But everything is new and must be either reaffirmed,
or I must make a new assment.

Amen daj, amen!!

[Deena]

Vine branch: your last paragraph sound just like how I feel. I am a bit of a newbie to UR, but it is truth, life and the real good news. Now I have a God that I rejoice in, and yes, weep over but now it is in gladness and gratitude. For 25 years as an evangelical (most of that working for a "ministry") I was almost driven to the point of suicide. Trying to be good was making me an emotional basketcase and I always thought God was very disappointed in me, which made me hate myself and do self destructive things. Yes, discovering the real love of God who will reconcile all creation, which is subject to futility for a period of time and for His purpose, is a grand relief. It is a game changer for sure. You might have noticed, however, that not many are willing to, or can see it right away. I don't know why God has chosen to share it with me, but my sincere prayer is that I may lay hold of that for which He has laid hold of me.  Welcome VB.

[dajomaco]

Now that I have a new understanding .
I don't look at the past so much.
I used to look back at the past and it did not bring me joy.

Now I look back at Jesus and imagine him as a teenager.
 I chose to see myself with Jesus as a teenager.
How much fun we must have had learning so many new things.
The beauty of Gods creation seemed to be so alive to me as a teen.
That was until I destroyed its beauty in my world with drugs ,alcohol ,sex
and violence .

Any way I am now comforted by all imitate and intimate walks with the lord through the Spirit that are now and ahead for ever.

[VineBranch]

...
Trying to be good was making me an emotional basketcase and I always thought God was very disappointed in me, which made me hate myself and do self destructive things. Yes, discovering the real love of God who will reconcile all creation, which is subject to futility for a period of time and for His purpose, is a grand relief.

Thanks for being so open about this De.  For years I would pray for death.  I kept asking God why He hated me so much that He refused to take me home.  Almost every morning I would wake and ask God why I was still alive.  I used to tell Him, there is nothing I do which can't be done a thousand times better by someone else.  Why keep me around?  At one time it got so bad that I said I would take non-existence over life on Earth.  If He could , would He just please throw my away into oblivion.  I would rather not be, than be here.  Yet every morning I would wake up with the knowledge that somehow I would disappoint everyone I knew because I could never the 'good' person I was supposed to be.  I knew nothing I did would ever be good enough, I was a failure, and probably a phoney:  what Christian thinks himself incapable of pleasing God?  I thought it might be better to be in Hell, at least that way I wouldn't have to see the disappointment on God's face.  I would never please Him, why bother even being near Him?  I asked myself these questions:  how come God is so generous with His salvation, yet so stingy with His love?  How come so many people will go to Hell, just because the 'God of Love' didn't get His own way?

Then He showed me what the real plan is, and I haven't been the same since.  I haven't hated waking up in a while now.  When I wake up I walk into my father's loving arms, not His disappointment.  He really does love everyone enough to make sure no one (including me) is left out, or lost, irrespective of how many mistakes we make along the way.

[ded2daworld]

 

[dajomaco]

Because of the Lord's faithful love
we do not perish,[h]
for His mercies never end.
23 They are new every morning;
great is Your faithfulness!
24 I say: The Lord is my portion,
therefore I will put my hope in Him.

[eaglesway]

There is such freedom in knowing every person IS beloved of the Lord. I live in NYC. Every day as I walk about this crowded city and get on and off of buses and subways I have endless opportunity to say, "This person is the beloved of the Lord"......."Jesus died to rescue this person". Whenever my flesh would like to rise up, I remember, "This person is beloved of the Lord and WILL BE REDEEMED. I get elated sometimes. I probably grin like a madman and scare people, I don't know but "trying to love" people never worked well for me. It was the establishment and proclamation of the reconiliation, salvation and restoration of all within this temple that tore the veil and made it possible to believe......

This person WILL BE REDEEMED.......

That belief unlocked within me the power to love- who'd of guessed that? :o)   Not me.

[Ross]

We do indeed have a hope for a glorious future when we will see Christ as He truly is, and we WILL be like Him.

[VineBranch]

There seems to be a maturity about UR.  I don't mean that the only people who believe it are necessarily mature, but the notion/idea/belief, of UR has an inherent maturity.

A child screams "Mom I hate you"! A mature mother gets it:  she doesn't need to slap the child and enter into some kind of competition with it to prove that 'mom is in charge and mom is right'.  She understands that the child is a child, and she is an adult.  Someday the child will understand.  For the moment however, mom is there to take care of the child, regardless of how important the child might think it is.  (I have seen parents competing with their own children as to who is the adult, and it is quite disconcerting.  In this post however I will be talking about mature rational parents.)  The Parent doesn't need to dominate the child.  A compassionate parent has to patience to understand that when they were children they needed guidance, not beatings.  The child doesn't need to be told it will go to Hell if it won't submit, although wielding the Hell stick is a tool some parents use.

Hell in one way seems so immature.

I sometimes think that there are people who actually look forward to seeing other people in the Hell of ET.  I think they secretly relish the thought "keep it up sinner, someday I'll see you in Hell and I'll smile at you rotting there forever (que the evil laughter).  Hell for some seems to be the place where all the people who ever did me wrong will wind up and I will be vindicated because God and I will laugh at them; they will be punished because they hurt me:  that'll learn 'em.

Okay, okay, I confess I've had those thoughts myself.  Knowing that those jerks were gonna find themselves in Hell was justice in my mind.  So, it was kinda necessary for there to be a Hell ... not for me, mind you, for them.  Someone wrongs me, off to Hell.  Someone disagrees to me, it's off to the Hell for the stupid for you.  Just you wait 'enry 'iggins, just you wait.  I took solace in this knowledge. I hung out with folk who also took solace in the knowledge.  Can you imagine being in so much pain, that the thought of some one else going to Hell was a good thing (notice the shutter, as I type).

Some of us have to have a hell or else there is no way to prove that we were right.  We also need Hell to prove that there was meaning to all the pain and suffering through which we went while we were down here.

Now however, things are different.

I see the Beatitudes in a different light.  I see the notion of The Father more clearly.  God is The Father, He doesn't have to compete with His kids to prove that to Himself, or to others.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." Matthew 5:43-45 KJV

Because our Father is patient with all His kids, we now know that those who curse us and despitefully use us will also come to the father.  They are not our enemies, even though they kill us in this life, they are brothers and sisters ... fellow travellers on the way to The Father.  I think when God shows us that no one will be lost, a certain maturity seems to be inherent in that revelation, a cetain patience comes about:  perhaps an understanding to not take those affronts personally, perhaps an understanding of the words 'forgive them for they know not what they do'.  We are all children, maybe part of having recieved a certain amount of God's understanding allows us to treat each others and ourselves as such:  we see that we all need a lot more patience for ourselves and others.  Maybe what happens when God shows us His plan is two fold, we see that there is no Hell, and we see that we no longer have need of one. 

I once told some friends of mine, "be careful whom you choose as your gods, for you will become like them".  I see now that is truer then I had originally thought.

[dajomaco]

In the garden of Eden before the fall, God created, to please Adam.
This is  a mystery God.Was interested in what Adam called each animal.
I don't think God was going to correct Adam and tell him the he gave the wrong name .
Every name, no matter what Adam said. That name was the true name of that creature .
It was like Adam could do no wrong. Atta boy.

Now today with me he is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

I can relax he is well aware of any my inadequacies
 and only wants me to name some of the creatures.



Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper as his complement." 19 So the LORD God formed out of the ground every wild animal and every bird of the sky, and brought each to the man to see what he would call it. And whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20

[Deena]

Eaglesway, I know what you mean by smiling like a mad man. Sometimes I see a group of people and the thought comes to me, it's all gonna be ok--not one will be lost, and I break out in a wide smile. This is the real good news. I want to tell everyone, but most I share it with imediately shut it down. That's ok--I'm still smiling! One of the best parts is I no longer feel I am competing with someone for the few spots in heaven. That frees me to love them (although I still need training wheels for this one) 

[VineBranch]

Eaglesway, I know what you mean by smiling like a mad man. Sometimes I see a group of people and the thought comes to me, it's all gonna be ok--not one will be lost, and I break out in a wide smile. This is the real good news. I want to tell everyone, but most I share it with imediately shut it down. That's ok--I'm still smiling! One of the best parts is I no longer feel I am competing with someone for the few spots in heaven. That frees me to love them (although I still need training wheels for this one) 

It speaks to me of the irrelevance of our notion of time inside God's love.  I said on my website that one fo the things I had learned is that it takes a lifetime to live a life.  Now I see that it that it takes an eternity to show God's love.

[dajomaco]

Just imagine how much love God has for us that it just barley fits
in to the time restraints of eternity.

God may just decide to make eternity longer .

[ded2daworld]

Daj,
If anybody can do it, he can

[Lazarus Short]

Just imagine how much love God has for us that it just barley fits
in to the time restraints of eternity.

God may just decide to make eternity longer .

Have you ever thought (ignoring the little detail of the time between our death and our resurrection) that we are already living in Eternity?!

[VineBranch]

Have you ever thought (ignoring the little detail of the time between our death and our resurrection) that we are already living in Eternity?!

I think we are.  I have come to see time as a property of mater.  When the material universe is gone, there will be no matter and therefore there will be no time.  God is spirit.  Spirit exists outside of time.  That part of me which exists as spirit exists outside of time as well because spirit is immaterial, and thus unaffected by time.
I don't think eternity is created by just putting more time into the works:  akin to the notion of forever.  Eternity exists (if indeed that word can even be applied to something which in the material universe cannot exist) beyond time.  So yes LS I think we are.  I know this question was addressed to daj, sorry if I stepped on any toes.

[eaglesway]

Eaglesway, I know what you mean by smiling like a mad man. Sometimes I see a group of people and the thought comes to me, it's all gonna be ok--not one will be lost, and I break out in a wide smile. This is the real good news. I want to tell everyone, but most I share it with imediately shut it down. That's ok--I'm still smiling! One of the best parts is I no longer feel I am competing with someone for the few spots in heaven. That frees me to love them (although I still need training wheels for this one) 

:o) Beautiful :o)

[eaglesway]

Time is the threshing floor of God. IMO, It is by no means irrelevant. It is the stage upon which He is demonstrating His wisdom. If we are wise we will make the most of it. If we are not, He has forgiven us anyway :o), but wisdom justifies her children. Let us be wise.

[ded2daworld]

Being a science guy, IMO, time was different before Adams sin. There was no death and decay before sin. Death and decay are aspects of time. The whole universe is in decay mode and I believe that was from Adams sin and why the Bible states that "all of creation" groans under it's weight. I believe when all is reconciled, not only will there be no death but it follows that there will be no decay. What is a natural physical law now (death and decay) will be abolished.