Could we get personal about UR

[dajomaco]

In some way time is used as an economy.
I believe we are in our eternal lives now.
The part that stays for all eternity is the things we do through faith.
If by faith we prayed or sang for 10 minutes that time will be added to eternity.
I f by faith we fed or visited some one, the time that we were moving in the spirit
will be ours for ever .
These will be our rewards these will be the differences in the crowns we are given.
Some will have used a lot of time some not so much.
But we will all recognize the value of each others crown .
Then we will all throw our crowns down before the Lord of Glory
followed by the full hosts and universes of praise to Jesus
The Son of God Taking his place on the thrown. 

[eaglesway]

Being a science guy, IMO, time was different before Adams sin. There was no death and decay before sin. Death and decay are aspects of time. The whole universe is in decay mode and I believe that was from Adams sin and why the Bible states that "all of creation" groans under it's weight. I believe when all is reconciled, not only will there be no death but it follows that there will be no decay. What is a natural physical law now (death and decay) will be abolished.

I agree entirely with that.

 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

[VineBranch]

Being a science guy, IMO, time was different before Adams sin.

Different how?  Now time is characterised by movement (if even at the subatomic level).  Are you suggesting a 'kind' of time which could exist without movement?  No movement no decay/wearing out/entropy?

[eaglesway]

time is relation to finiteness
time in relation to process
time in relation to existence
time in relation to consciousness
a state of being that completely transcends time

so many possible perspectives on time

[ded2daworld]

Yes VB, that's what I'm suggesting. Just as the people of Israel wandered in the desert for forty years and their sandals did not wear out, I am suggesting that their was no entropy or decay. I know this currently is "breaking" a law of physics. I'm suggesting that the Lawgiver put that law into effect as the result of sin.
When Adam sinned, God told him, you shall die(eventually) and begin to die(now)
literal "dieing, you shall die."
I don't believe the earths orbit started to slow down or its' spin or its' magnetic feild weaken, etc. all part of entropy/decay UNTIL sin entered the world. Same with the universe. Stars and comets die out and orbits decay but there is nothing in science that actually shows stars or comets forming. or orbits remaining stable.

[Lazarus Short]

VB, the curse after the Fall was not just put on Adam and Eve, not just on the Earth, but upon the entire Creation.  That is why the whole creation groans together until now, if I got the wording right.  I'm a concept person, not a chapter & verse person.

Before the curse:  no decay, no death, no blood.

During the curse:  decay, death, blood.

After the curse:  no decay, no death, no blood.

[VineBranch]

time is relation to finiteness
time in relation to process
time in relation to existence
time in relation to consciousness
a state of being that completely transcends time

so many possible perspectives on time

Sorry eagle, I don't understand the last bit:  how can time be a state of being which completely transcends time?

[VineBranch]

Yes VB, that's what I'm suggesting. Just as the people of Israel wandered in the desert for forty years and their sandals did not wear out, I am suggesting that their was no entropy or decay. I know this currently is "breaking" a law of physics. I'm suggesting that the Lawgiver put that law into effect as the result of sin.
When Adam sinned, God told him, you shall die(eventually) and begin to die(now)
literal "dieing, you shall die."
I don't believe the earths orbit started to slow down or its' spin or its' magnetic feild weaken, etc. all part of entropy/decay UNTIL sin entered the world. Same with the universe. Stars and comets die out and orbits decay but there is nothing in science that actually shows stars or comets forming. or orbits remaining stable.

I see a logic in there.  If I am reading your words properly, sin is the origin of entropy:  is that what you are saying?

Maybe you and Laz could help me with something which has been confusing me for a while.  I've heard this phrasing before, dying you shall die, or you shall die and begin to die.  It seems to imply that Adam was created immortal.  Then when he fell from grace, or created the fall, or what ever the phrase should be, he became (for lack of a better word) mortal.  Is that right?  If it is I'm really confused.

[VineBranch]

VB, the curse after the Fall was not just put on Adam and Eve, not just on the Earth, but upon the entire Creation.  That is why the whole creation groans together until now, if I got the working right.  I'm a concept person, not a chapter & verse person.

Before the curse:  no decay, no death, no blood.

During the curse:  decay, death, blood.

After the curse:  no decay, no death, no blood.

I sympathise, chapter and verse kinda baffle me a times.

I've heard that too, there was not death before the fall.  Ken Ham spends a lot of time on this notion.  Maybe you could help me with this one:  if there was not death before the fall, how could God threaten Adam with death, if Adam had never seen death.  What would God's threat have meant to him, if he couldn't relate to this thing death, because he never saw it?
.................

Eagle, if there was not decay or entropy, how did Adam digest the fruit God said he could eat.

[ded2daworld]

Hi VB. God gave Adam a language. Just as the DNA is a language code, the body has to be able to decode for the DNA to do all it's supposed to do. The language Adam was given would have been meaningless if God had not also put the ability to decode it (knowing the precise meaning of words) So although Adam did not experientially know the meaning of death he did know the meaning of it intellectually. Here is a God example:
God knows and knew everything about everything - including Abraham and Isaac.
After God stopped Abraham from plunging the knife into Isaac at the last second, God then told Abraham, "NOW I know that you fear God..."  God knew it beforehand intellectually, now he also knew it experientially.
IMO, this is also how it was possible for Jesus to "grow in knowledge" because tho' he knew everything, he hadn't experienced it firsthand.

[sheila]

imo  just as we are changed..in a twinkling..when we put on immortality...this is what occurred when sin

 entered the body of Adam and Eve.......terrestial and celestial bodies...are like garments that the Lord

  has the power  to clothe His spiritual creatures with..and change those garments at will...

 

[eaglesway]

Hi VB. God gave Adam a language. Just as the DNA is a language code, the body has to be able to decode for the DNA to do all it's supposed to do. The language Adam was given would have been meaningless if God had not also put the ability to decode it (knowing the precise meaning of words) So although Adam did not experientially know the meaning of death he did know the meaning of it intellectually. Here is a God example:
God knows and knew everything about everything - including Abraham and Isaac.
After God stopped Abraham from plunging the knife into Abraham at the last second, God then told Abraham, "NOW I know that you fear God..."  God knew it beforehand intellectually, now he also knew it experientially.
IMO, this is also how it was possible for Jesus to "grow in knowledge" because tho' he knew everything, he hadn't experienced it firsthand.

Excellent post, maybe the best thing I ever read on the subject, building a precise bridge bewteen the language of interaction in time and the overall foreknowledge, election and predestination of God. Also a great perspective on the difference between knowledge and experience. For man, knowledge plus experience equals wisdom and understanding. Knowledge without experience is still valuable- because it points the wise in the right direction for an informed action in time, but until we go through the experience, our knowledge is only a shadow of things to come.

[dajomaco]

I n the beginning God related to Adam one on one .
There was no need for a spoken word .
No need for a written word.

God would create an animal or bird.
God new that what ever he created had no name,

He could call it what ever he wanted.
But he didn't he waited to see what Adam called it.

The animal did what ever it did.
Regardless of the name Adam gave it.
Nothing in all of creation was changed by Adam naming an animal.
Yet God still waited to see what Adam called them.

After the fall God did not communicate directly to Adams mind.
He communicated to a people to his people.
He would speak to the people by a person God would pick to write down what he said
so that a people could hear him and do what was pleasing in his sight .

After Jesus and his resurrection. It was no longer just the written word
but also the hand written message on our hearts and mind.

We start conversing with God, based on what was written, in our hearts .
The proof is in the written word of  Paul. 

I believe we are back to one on one with God.
We have the free will to call things as we see them.
God is interested in what we call things.
One on oneonly
He is not interested in what I think others call it.
He wants me to call it as I see it.   

[ded2daworld]

Thanks EW. I am honored by you.

[Lazarus Short]

Hi VB. God gave Adam a language. Just as the DNA is a language code, the body has to be able to decode for the DNA to do all it's supposed to do. The language Adam was given would have been meaningless if God had not also put the ability to decode it (knowing the precise meaning of words) So although Adam did not experientially know the meaning of death he did know the meaning of it intellectually. Here is a God example:
God knows and knew everything about everything - including Abraham and Isaac.
After God stopped Abraham from plunging the knife into Abraham at the last second, God then told Abraham, "NOW I know that you fear God..."  God knew it beforehand intellectually, now he also knew it experientially.
IMO, this is also how it was possible for Jesus to "grow in knowledge" because tho' he knew everything, he hadn't experienced it firsthand.

Excellent post, maybe the best thing I ever read on the subject, building a precise bridge bewteen the language of interaction in time and the overall foreknowledge, election and predestination of God. Also a great perspective on the difference between knowledge and experience. For man, knowledge plus experience equals wisdom and understanding. Knowledge without experience is still valuable- because it points the wise in the right direction for an informed action in time, but until we go through the experience, our knowledge is only a shadow of things to come.

...or as Confucius said, "I hear and I forget.  I see and I remember.  I do and I understand."

[eaglesway]

Ahhhh Yessss Grasshopper :o)

[VineBranch]

Hi VB. God gave Adam a language. Just as the DNA is a language code, the body has to be able to decode for the DNA to do all it's supposed to do. The language Adam was given would have been meaningless if God had not also put the ability to decode it (knowing the precise meaning of words) So although Adam did not experientially know the meaning of death he did know the meaning of it intellectually. Here is a God example:
God knows and knew everything about everything - including Abraham and Isaac.
After God stopped Abraham from plunging the knife into Isaac at the last second, God then told Abraham, "NOW I know that you fear God..."  God knew it beforehand intellectually, now he also knew it experientially.
IMO, this is also how it was possible for Jesus to "grow in knowledge" because tho' he knew everything, he hadn't experienced it firsthand.

Hi ded, thanks for the update.  If I may, I would like to request some clarification.

DNA is a code, but your called it a language code:  are you sure?  I am particularly worried that we may try to impose a structure which isn't there.  Although it has what my be called a protocol, somewhat akin to word order, DNA doesn't appear to have a grammar for example.  If Adam didn't have first hand knowledge of death, then he couldn't have been held responsible for knowing what it would do to him, so how could God hold him responsible for something if the only way he could truly know the consequence of the action, was to perform that act?

IMO, this is also how it was possible for Jesus to "grow in knowledge" because tho' he knew everything, he hadn't experienced it firsthand

You don't think it was because Jesus had become totally human and it was therefore necessary for Him to grow in a totally human way?

After God stopped Abraham from plunging the knife into Isaac at the last second, God then told Abraham, "NOW I know that you fear God..."  God knew it beforehand intellectually, now he also knew it experientially.

This one confuses me the most; I also have to admit you have frightened me:  in fact given me the willies.  As soon as I read this my stomach did a flip-flop.  If God cannot know something (in any capacity) before He has seen a human perform it, then God is not omniscient.  In fact, man becomes God's teacher in your example.  If this is true, then God didn't know Adam would eat the fruit, until Adam ate the fruit; God wouldn't know Adam would die, until Adam died:  which makes His threat about the consequences of eating the fruit mere speculation on His part. If God didn't really know if Adam would die or not, how could Adam know?  How could he be held responsible if the results were mere conjecture? Is God running some cruel experiment?  Is He seeing if the world actually works the way He intellectually knows it should, but can't really be sure until He subjects it to some testing? I see you have received a lot of praise for this post, so I must be missing something.

[eaglesway]

time is relation to finiteness
time in relation to process
time in relation to existence
time in relation to consciousness
a state of being that completely transcends time

so many possible perspectives on time

When time is complete we will all be in a state of being that transcends time, right now, perhaps only God is in a state of being that transcends time. I was just listing possibilities and perspectives.

Sorry eagle, I don't understand the last bit:  how can time be a state of being which completely transcends time?

[ded2daworld]

IMO, God is in a state of being that transcends time. We will be in God completely.
Time is a construct of matter in the sense that if there is no matter, time is meaningless or immeasurable.
"In the beginning..." in essence, time began when the universe began, when God said let there be light, there was then something measurable. thus, the beginning of time.
Since we live in a linear time continuum, it is difficult to concieve of something different then all we have ever known, but we do know that God transcends time since He was already there "In the beginning..."

[Lazarus Short]

If God cannot know something (in any capacity) before He has seen a human perform it, then God is not omniscient.  In fact, man becomes God's teacher in your example.  If this is true, then God didn't know Adam would eat the fruit, until Adam ate the fruit; God wouldn't know Adam would die, until Adam died:  which makes His threat about the consequences of eating the fruit mere speculation on His part.

There is something mysterious going on here, or is it just God's way of communicating with us on our own level?  After Adam and Eve ate the fruit and had their eyes opened, they hid from God, making aprons of fig leaves.  God called to them, and they said they were ashamed because they were naked, and therefore hid.  God says, "Who told you that you were naked?"  I may be reading too much into the text, but God seems surprised here.  Further, I picture God doing a facepalm and saying, "Have you eaten of the tree...?"  This is said AS IF God did not know how they knew they were naked.  Theology says that God must have known, but there is a freshness in His initial reaction which tells us that He was caught unawares.  A God who exists outside of time caught unawares?!  It's a mystery... 

With that out of the way, God took decisive action.  He put a curse on the Serpent, Adam & Eve, and the whole Creation.  He told Adam and Eve they will die, so He did know that beforehand.  Once the initial jolt from almost timeless Eden to the march of history (His Story) had begun, God was on top of everything, even ahead of everything, telling the end from the beginning, and inspiring prophets to tell the future in exacting detail.  Only the jolt caught Him off guard...   

[eaglesway]

"There is something mysterious going on here, or is it just God's way of communicating with us on our own level?"

I think it is a little of both. We try to draw hard lines around things Gods has deliberately left "between the lines" of assumptions & our pardigms. He may be getting a little enjoyment with all this, as we are trying to figure things out so we can best one another intellectually and claim the "deeper" understanding.

[dajomaco]

God is who he is, regardless of whether I have read Genesis or not.

There has been a billion minds over time that have contemplated.
The level of Gods sovereignty.

God is not concerned with the conclusion of the billions.
He is with you and watching you to see what level of sovereignty
you ascribe to him.
He can show you how he is in and out of time.
He can show you in such a personnel way, that leaves you encouraged ,but hopelessly lost on how to explain it to the other billion minds.
 Some times we just have a quite knowing.

Our minds are too limited in the ability to imagine a scenario
where God was not completely in charge of . 

[Lazarus Short]

"There is something mysterious going on here, or is it just God's way of communicating with us on our own level?"

I think it is a little of both. We try to draw hard lines around things Gods has deliberately left "between the lines" of assumptions & our pardigms. He may be getting a little enjoyment with all this, as we are trying to figure things out so we can best one another intellectually and claim the "deeper" understanding.

Zing!  I think you've nailed it.

[ded2daworld]

Daj,
The thought of God not being totally in control terrifies me for one reason. If God is not in control then he is not God by definition.
Besides, I have a t-shirt that says, "Relax, God is in control." So it must be true

[eaglesway]

Does God being totally in control mean He controls us totally?

Nah, don't think so :o)