Concerning wisdom: Yahweh acquired me . . .

[Tony N]

Concerning wisdom, it is written:

"Yahweh Himself acquired me as the beginning of His way; Preceeding His deeds of yore" (Pro 8:22).

What exactly do you think of that?

Was there a time when Yahweh did not have wisdom and had to acquire it?

Tony N

[Kratos]

The word "acquired" is one of several possible choices for the English here, but the context does not work here for me. Most every other translation uses the word "possessed", as in:

Pro 8:22

(KJV)  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

(RV)  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

(YLT)  Jehovah possessed me--the beginning of His way, Before His works since then.

The Lord possessed wisdom from the beginning before any of His works. God had no beginning so this must refer to the beginning of time when God began to work with man in the realm of time. Wisdom was not something that God ever had to attain or acquire, but was always His in eternity before time began.

This is a good example of the trouble we can get into trying to know God just by studying other uses of a Greek or Hebrew word in antiquity. I know that the definition obsessed teachers will not like this, but to me knowing God is more about relationship and spiritual knowing then studying ancient languages. Remember that the Jews of Jesus' time understood perfect Hebrew and still did not know God when He stood right in front of them.

John

[meefsgirl]

Concerning wisdom, it is written:

"Yahweh Himself acquired me as the beginning of His way; Preceeding His deeds of yore" (Pro 8:22).

What exactly do you think of that?

Was there a time when Yahweh did not have wisdom and had to acquire it?

Tony N

This whole passage of Proverbs 8 about wisdom is about Jesus Christ.
The whole passage speaks of Him, even in this little gem..

Pro 8:35  For whoever finds me finds life, and shall obtain favor from Jehovah.

Jesus said He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

No, there wasn't a time He didn't have wisdom because He IS wisdom.

[Davo22]

Hello Tony.

I'm not sure what translation you are reading from, but here are a few others.

"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. (NASB)

"The LORD already possessed me long ago, when his way began, before any of his works. (GWT)

The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. (KJV)

Almost all the other translations here translate it "possessed". In fact the revised standard version says that he "created" me [wisdom] at the beginning of his work.

Proverbs 22:23 The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

So, context speaks to us. The Lord created wisdom and set it up.

God Bless.

[Tony N]

Thanks friends for your excellent replies.

I'm just kind of thinking out loud here.

If I create a chalk board, have I not, in so doing, acquired one?

kawnaw, the Hebrew word is used here. The KJV says "possessed." However, the Strong's number for kawnaw is 7069: "A primitive root; to erect, that is create, by extension to procure, especially by purchase; by implication; to own, attain, buy.

So if I buy something I bring it into my possession. I acquire it. If I create something I also acquire it via means of creation.

I wonder if this could be the Son of God Who carries the title of Yahweh and that before, as Logos, the Word, He had to acquire wisdom before creating all in the heavens and on the earth? He had to learn obedience (Hebrews 5:8).

In Him
Tony

[Cardinal]

 :) My two cents....something in that definition caught my eye.......the word "erect". I've shared this before, but years ago I had a dream/vision. It was so real, I could see it for a few moments with my eyes open upon waking. Everything was dark outside over the earth, but I saw everything that He made literally framed like a coloring book rendition, in red. There was no substance to any of it yet, like it was yet to be filled in with the substance of the things. I  immediately was given the scriptures about wisdom framing the world, and being more precious than rubies (red). To frame a house, is to erect it, and it was like He was showing me the framework, sort of, "build it and they will come", LOL, God-style. ;) Blessings.....

[Livelystone]

Greetings

IMHO what is more important then an acceptable and precise definition of wisdom is what brings it into being within a individual..... after all it is a personal walk with God with the intended prize at the journey's end of becoming to be in His Likeness.

Ps 110: 10      The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Pr.8: 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

Blessings

Doug

[Tony N]

Greetings

IMHO what is more important then an acceptable and precise definition of wisdom is what brings it into being within a individual..... after all it is a personal walk with God with the intended prize at the journey's end of becoming to be in His Likeness.

Ps 110: 10      The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Pr.8: 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

Blessings

Doug

Hi Doug,
Are you saying that the beginning of wisdom was when Yahweh began to fear Himself?

[Livelystone]

Greetings

IMHO what is more important then an acceptable and precise definition of wisdom is what brings it into being within a individual..... after all it is a personal walk with God with the intended prize at the journey's end of becoming to be in His Likeness.

Ps 110: 10      The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Pr.8: 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

Blessings

Doug

Hi Doug,
Are you saying that the beginning of wisdom was when Yahweh began to fear Himself?

Hello to you Tony

I can see the reasoning behind your question but from my viewpoint the answer is no. I am defining wisdom as to " hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth". Those things are what the Lord fears within all that is His and He hates them enough that He will use them to destroy themselves........ I guess you could call that fighting fire with fire so to speak when He uses evil to destroy other evil.

Finding any of these in ourselves brings on the fear of the Lord that in turn causes us to run to Him rather than from Him as if we were afraid of Him ......... I believe this would be fulfilling Paul's statement of working out you own salvation with trembling and fear. I certainly have seen these things come about myself even though I abhor them........... that is when I find Him to be my only antidote

It is said that the Lord feared while he prayed before going to the Cross....... did he fear the pain of the Cross..... absolutely not because the scriptures tell us for joy he endured the Cross with all of its humiliation and shame. So he feared disobedience because of something else that could be a good thread in itself but the point that I would bring up now is that when He did fear, he turned to the Lord who sent angels to strengthen Him.

Same goes for us and we too should have the fear of the Lord so when are approached by any of the fruits of the flesh....... we too can turn to Him to overcome what is the particular fear of the Lord troubling Him in us. That process IMHO is us gaining wisdom through using understanding (see Isa. 11:2)

To have the fear of the Lord is to share part of His personality...... what he loves as well as what He hates.

Blessings

Doug

[Tony N]

Hi Doug,
I think that the verses Psalm 110:83 and Prov.8:13 previously quoted by you have to do with the human. I am more concerned right now with Yahweh and how it was that He acquired wisdom as the beginning of His way in Proverbs 8:22.

[Livelystone]

Hi Doug,
I think that the verses Psalm 110:83 and Prov.8:13 previously quoted by you have to do with the human. I am more concerned right now with Yahweh and how it was that He acquired wisdom as the beginning of His way in Proverbs 8:22.

The spirit of Christ has always been the same and all of it that is listed in Isa.11;2 was the "US" in the beginning.

Jesus as a boy was under the same tutors and governors that we are and they are all of the authors of scripture and the Holy Spirit. But at a time of His anointing appointed of by the Father when perfection was given by Him unto Him as it will be with us (He.6 1,3) we will see clearly what as children we see only darkly. I would venture what I think is a pretty good guess that when the dove landed on His shoulder he was given all wisdom in knowledge although He still had to experience it through sufferings and death of the flesh......just as we will.

Maybe I do not understand all what you are speaking of and if so I apologize.

Blessings

Doug

[Pierac]

"Yahweh Himself acquired me as the beginning of His way; Preceeding His deeds of yore" (Pro 8:22).

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Gen 14:19  He blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor (acquired) of heaven and earth;

Exo 15:16  "Terror and dread fall upon them; By the greatness of Your arm they are motionless as stone; Until Your people pass over, O LORD, Until the people pass over whom You have purchased. (acquired)

Psa 74:2  Remember Your congregation, which You have purchased (acquired) of old, Which You have redeemed to be the tribe of Your inheritance; And this Mount Zion, where You have dwelt.

Isa 11:11  Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover (acquired) the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea.

Deu 32:6  "Do you thus repay the LORD, O foolish and unwise people? Is not He your Father who has bought (acquired) you? He has made you and established you.

Pro 4:5  Acquire wisdom! Acquire understanding! Do not forget nor turn away from the words of my mouth.

Pro 4:7  "The beginning of wisdom is: Acquire wisdom; And with all your acquiring, (creation) get understanding.

Pro 1:5  A wise man will hear and increase in learning, And a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel,

Neh 5:8  I said to them, "We according to our ability have redeemed (acquired) our Jewish brothers who were sold to the nations; now would you even sell your brothers that they may be sold to us?" Then they were silent and could not find a word to say.

Gen 4:1  Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, "I have gotten (acquired) a manchild with the help of the LORD."

Gen 33:19  He bought (acquired) the piece of land where he had pitched his tent from the hand of the sons of Hamor, Shechem's father, for one hundred pieces of money.

Gen 39:1  Now Joseph had been taken down to Egypt; and Potiphar, an Egyptian officer of Pharaoh, the captain of the bodyguard, bought (acquired) him from the Ishmaelites, who had taken him down there.

Pro 8:22  "The LORD possessed (acquired) me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

It might also be a good question to ask , how did He buy or purchase or redeem it?  Good question!  It's a difficult answer unless you go with what seems obvious.  Hey, who said it was obvious?  Right Tony?   ;)

Paul

[arcticmonster2003]

Concerning wisdom, it is written:

"Yahweh Himself acquired me as the beginning of His way; Preceeding His deeds of yore" (Pro 8:22).

What exactly do you think of that?

Was there a time when Yahweh did not have wisdom and had to acquire it?

Tony N

Trying to understand things like this may be out of our minds capability, after all what is "time" to God, it is even thought by modern science that "time" is interweaved with things like space, mass, gravity and other things, as far a time is concerned we are viewing most stars as they were millions of years ago, if "time" had any constraints on God these things could not be as they are. As God said "I AM". Thats a pretty powerful and profound thing that he told us about himself.

[Tony N]

Yes Paul, indeed the Hebrew term for "acquire" can be used as "purchase" and other English words.

I don't think there was a greater than God at the time He acquired His wisdom, unless this Yahweh could be the Son of God who acquired it from His Father, Yahweh?

Sometimes we say a pro-football player payed for the right to be the best. But he didn't actually purchase the right with money but with hard work through high school then college then finally making it to the Pro's.

Could it be that this Yahweh could have paid for His Wisdom in much the same way . . . by hard work? Could it be that the universe we see today is the result of much trial and error until He got it to work just the way it does today?

Maybe He started off with a wrong kind of atom which didn't work right and finally formulated the proper atomic structure of everything that does work today? It could be He acquired wisdom in this fashion?

Tony N.

[Kratos]

Tony,

One of the attributes of God which differs from man is that He is eternal and one of the attributes of being eternal is that He changes not. If God changed one iota during His entire existence, then He would not be eternal.

God created time for man so that we could go through a process of changes. We are changed from glory to glory and this includes acquiring wisdom.

One day, we will be like Him and time will be swallowed up by eternity and we will change no more either. Then, Jesus will have turned everything to the Father and He will be all in all.

I think you are trying to reduce God down to a creature of time who has gone through changes including gaining wisdom. This is not the God revealed in the scriptures. He changes not. Never has and never will. As creatures of time, we have a hard time grasping timelessness or being eternal. We make a mistake if we think that eternal just means lots of time. It is apples and oranges. Eternal is not unolimited time, but no time at all.

This is why I said in my first post that using 'acquired' to translate the Greek when referring to God does not fit the context. God has always possessed wisdom, but He never could have ever acquired it. If He had, then He is not the eternal God who changes not.

John

[lovetruth]

right, kratos.  it should always be a warning sign for us when God starts looking a little too much like us  :Angel7:

[Tony N]

Tony,

One of the attributes of God which differs from man is that He is eternal and one of the attributes of being eternal is that He changes not. If God changed one iota during His entire existence, then He would not be eternal.

The Bible doesn't ever state that God is eternal.

God created time for man so that we could go through a process of changes. We are changed from glory to glory and this includes acquiring wisdom.

I agree, to a point.

One day, we will be like Him and time will be swallowed up by eternity and we will change no more either. Then, Jesus will have turned everything to the Father and He will be all in all.

Well, the Bible doesn't exactly say that "time will be swallowed up by eternity" so that is something you assume will happen. I believe we will put on immortality and incorruption.

I think you are trying to reduce God down to a creature of time who has gone through changes including gaining wisdom. This is not the God revealed in the scriptures. He changes not. Never has and never will. As creatures of time, we have a hard time grasping timelessness or being eternal. We make a mistake if we think that eternal just means lots of time. It is apples and oranges. Eternal is not unolimited time, but no time at all.

We must be talking about someOne different than Yahweh then because there was a time when Yahweh acquired wisdom. It must be about His Son, as the representative of Yahweh, maybe, acquiring it?

This is why I said in my first post that using 'acquired' to translate the Greek when referring to God does not fit the context. God has always possessed wisdom, but He never could have ever acquired it. If He had, then He is not the eternal God who changes not.

John

I think that your notions keep you from believing God or whoever is spoken of in that verse acquired wisdom. The Hebrew is pretty clear on that point. Whether it agrees with our current understanding of God per our present maturity status is quite another point altogether. Right?
[/quote]

[martincisneros]

Just like we're the sum total of all of our decisions and actions [not counting the obvious areas where He kicked His way in and said "Yeah, right!"], the Lord saved us from before times eonian both through the plan of the Cross and all He'd ever said/done up until it came time for the decisions directly responsible for that.  Once He'd committed to this or that, He's the unchanging God.  He's seemed to take forever to do things before, because once He's done something, it's probably going to be specifically that way from now on unless He qualifies it with what the KJV would render a "forever until" moment.

[Tony N]

Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

The passages appealed to for proving God's unchangeableness are by no means conclusive. "For I am the Lord, I change not" (Mal.3:6) sounds very fine but it is not the sense of the Hebrew. The word here translated change comes from the root TWO, and means repeat. In kal the Authorized Version renders it struck again (margin, double), do the second time, do again, speak again, be diverse, repeat, given to change, return (margin, iterateth), and only once, change, in this passage. The thought is that, if Jehovah repeated His former judgments, the sons of Jacob would be consumed. In other words He does change His methods of dealing with His people. His character, His attributes, His essence change not, but His way with His creatures is full of variety. He does not repeat.

     Everyone who has followed God's dealings with mankind in the various economies and dispensations cannot but admire His multifarious wisdom. Every new problem brings out new reserves. He does not fall back on some stereotyped plan of action. Moreover, He assumes various relations to His creatures. These are manifest in Christ. They are most diverse. The lowly gracious sufferer Who healed both body and spirit will one day be the Judge Who will condemn. He Who told the alien that He would not give the children's bread to dogs, now welcomes us to blessings which the children cannot share.

Romans 11:15 also presents an insuperable difficulty. If the casting away of Israel is the reconciling of the world, then all, believers and unbelievers, are now saved. If conciliation is always creatureward in its effects, then, since Israel has been set aside, all the world is reconciled. This difficulty first called my attention to the true meaning of this word. So far as its effects are concerned, all will acknowledge that the world is not reconciled with God. Indeed, its estrangement is ripening into rebellion. The casting away of Israel marked a vast change in God's attitude toward the world. Not until then is the salvation of God sent to the nations (Acts 28:28). (A.E. Knoch, Unsearchable Riches, vol.40 p.36-39)

The sober truth is that, in the present period of transcendent grace God's attitude toward all mankind is one of utter friendliness. This cannot be the case when Israel is His special favorite. It will not be the case when He visits the earth with sore judgments in the time of the end. Now He is "changed." This is the very essence of the evangel. The world is not changed. All arguments about God are futile and hide Him and His grace from us. (A.E.K. U.R., vol.25, p.380)

This is just my 
Tony

[martincisneros]

Hi Tony,

Thanks for sharing that.  Lots of food for thought, that I hope that you eventually touch up and turn into an article for your website, if you're the "Tony" that I'm thinking that you are.  If the site's not up, just touch it up anyway and email it to me and I'll post it on my website with any contact info that you specify.  I nearly grabbed it for my website anyway, but didn't wanna do it on the slick without bringing it up with you.  Plus, I didn't wanna put words in your mouth with adding a title and whatever.  I don't often spend half an hour with a discussion board thread re-reading a post over and over and over again.

He's the Original Chess Master Who lovingly check mates us at every turn.  Every game is different, but He knows the end of the game from our first move.

He often allows us a few "lucky moves" so that we'll set ourselves up, expose our hearts, and never see our soon coming check mate until we've gloated to all of creation that we're "winning."  But He already knows the moment that He'll leave us staring at the Chess board of life going:

"Huh?  Where did that come from?  How did You do that?  I never saw that coming!  You are definitely Master of everything!!"

[Tony N]

Hi Martin,
Yes, I am the Tony you are thinking of. My site has been down for some time now due to servor problems and ineptitude of the providor. I'm still now sure when it will be back up. It has been probably over a month now, maybe two?

Speaking of chess, when I was in the town I grew up in this guy was bragging how he had never been beaten by anyone in chess. He went by the title "ChessKing." He went to all the chess tournaments I guess.  Anyway, I said, Why don't you bring your chess game in here and let's see how I do against you. I didn't really know how to play. He told me what pieces do what and so out of no where God gave me the ability to see many moves forward and to how I could sucker his pawns out and have my knight ready for a pounce on his king. Somehow he didn't see it coming and I actually check mated him. There was no way out. He was so red faced and so shocked that an amateur could beat him. But he was bragging so much God just wanted to have him eat some humble pie.
Isn't that just how God does things though? He uses people like us to confound the wise.

Martin, you are so way cool. 

Tony

[Redkora]

Was there a time when Yahweh did not have wisdom and had to acquire it?

I think it's more like God deciding that now would be a good time in human history to take a course of action. That's my thought, anyway.

[Tony N]

Was there a time when Yahweh did not have wisdom and had to acquire it?

I think it's more like God deciding that now would be a good time in human history to take a course of action. That's my thought, anyway.

That's an interesting thought, Redkora. Can you expand on your thought?

Tony

[martincisneros]

......He told me what pieces do what and so out of no where God gave me the ability to see many moves forward and to how I could sucker his pawns out and have my knight ready for a pounce on his king. Somehow he didn't see it coming and I actually check mated him. There was no way out. He was so red faced and so shocked that an amateur could beat him. But he was bragging so much God just wanted to have him eat some humble pie.
Isn't that just how God does things though? He uses people like us to confound the wise.....

Tony

That's just like Jesus, that in His High Priestly ministry He'd activate the gifts of the Holy Spirit in your life of "word of wisdom," "word of knowledge," and "discerning of spirits" - not sure at the moment how the Concordant would word those in 1Corinthians 12, but I'll have a peak at it in a minute. - .....that He'd do that in relation to the game of chess [particularly the discernment part], in order to possibly bring some much needed humility to that dear brother, and perhaps to also instruct you regarding what the good ol' KJV calls "the powers of the world to come" in Hebrews 6 so that you'd have a glimpse at ministry to the latter fruits of redemption, that it won't be "by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith the Lord" (Zechariah 4:6 if I remember right).  Any chance you were already into the UR message and had an opportunity to share anything with him to help take his mind off of his weeping and gnashing of teeth over how the chess game had gone?

[Tony N]

Any chance you were already into the UR message and had an opportunity to share anything with him to help take his mind off of his weeping and gnashing of teeth over how the chess game had gone?

Sadly no, I was not apprised of the UR message at that early date. But by the same token, I was deeply disturbed by the ET message. Sometimes I would wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat wondering if I had done something to send me head long into the eternal flames and away from God. A few years after the above event I had become so very upset by the ET message that I told God I was never going back to church but that I would still believe Christ died for my sins. That very week God sent me to a bro. that knew all about UR! (but I didn't know he knew). The roof on his house was flat and damaged by a hale storm and was leaking badly. We were sitting down at his kitchen table. The pannelling on the walls were all buckled due to being wet, carpet sopping wet, pans everywhere catching water and he said: You know Tony, I believe God is in complete control. I immediately looked around at all the damage and thought to myself, This guy must REALLY believe that in light of this destruction. So I was ready to listen. He told me about God saving all etc. I took a bunch of material home and re-educated myself.

Sometimes God drives us to the point of utter despair just so He can drop His wonderful gifts into our laps and watch us bloom all over again!

Tony