Can you explain?

[Taffy]

Hi Molly..THIS IS TRUE..

but theres much more....this comes across like God BEATS us witha Stick..Well Yes..a ROD( strong words)of Correction.



Jhn 8:16  And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me

Do WE beleive Christs judgments to BE TRUE?

Jhn 8:15  Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

wowza...DONT THAT THROW A spanner in the works?...

whats True Judgement ?.afater all thats what Christ Judges IN...

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son




Zach 7:9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:

RIGHTEOUS( true) Judgment connects very much to MERCY...AINT WE THANKFUL HIS JUDGMENT is NOT like CARNAL MAN....

Psa 85:10 Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed [each other].  


Psa 89:14 Justice and judgment [are] the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.  

Psa 101:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] I will sing of mercy and judgment: unto thee, O LORD, will I sing.

Isa 16:5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.  

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


Job 29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment [was] as a robe and a diadem.

DONT THESESCRIPTURES take on a WHOLE new MEANING when we see after the spirit.

Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.  

 Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.  

Psa 72:2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.  


Psa 94:15 But judgment shall return unto righteousness: and all the upright in heart shall follow it.

Pro 2:9 Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; [yea], every good path

.

  Isa 5:16 But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.

  Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment
awesome SCRIPTURES...

Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Grace....MERCY...AND Righteous judgment.....AWESOME

[Roy Monis]

. There are two Jesus Christs that I am aware of that are being taught.
1).....   "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."   (1Jn.1:1-3). "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."   (Jn.1:14).

This is the legitimately Born Jesus Christ Son of God; "Whoever believe that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him." 1Jn.5:1).
 

The other Jesus Christ

2).......Is a Created Jesus Christ based on man's interpretation of the Scripture:" To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the """""""Beginning"""""" of the creation of God, says this:.."   (Rev.3:14).

Now forgetting everything else so as to establish a common ground for discussion we must of necessity believe in just one of the two options.

I am declaring my total belief in the first number 1. The only Begotten Son of God. All I ask is which of the two is your choice? Only then can we continue or we'd be at cross purposes and it will just lead to confusion.

Well bro, for mine they are Both the same....who do you think this Christ is In Revelation...? ChristS name comes In many Metaphors Bro...

HE IS  The Beginning and END..The ALPHA and OMEGA....what does this mean to you?

for me,    it coincides and bears witness to the one you call No 2? 

Hi! Taffy

You see no difference in: "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:" (Rev.3:1) and this "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3). Who are you kidding brother, no, not me.

I have two pedigree dogs and begin a specialized kennel, I'm the creator of it but I hope I'm not part of the kennel.

But you believe in both so that puts us on different wavelengths so we have no common ground for discussion and must part agreeing to disagree as brothers.

Thanks for the input in any case, we are all entitled to our own beliefs. But before we part let me just explain one thing since you raised it; Grace.

What is Grace?

The subject of I Cor. 11:32 is JUDGING.
The subject of Titus 2:11 is GRACE AND SALVATION.

HOW does God "judge" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!.
HOW does God "grace and save" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!

God JUDGES by chastening (I Cor. 11:32), and God GRACES by chastening (Titus 2:11).
By GRACE GOD JUDGES US and by JUDGING GOD GRACES US!

It's not a Sunday casual walk in the park.

Peace!

Roy
 

[Taffy]

. There are two Jesus Christs that I am aware of that are being taught.
1).....   "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."   (1Jn.1:1-3). "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."   (Jn.1:14).

This is the legitimately Born Jesus Christ Son of God; "Whoever believe that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him." 1Jn.5:1).
 

The other Jesus Christ

2).......Is a Created Jesus Christ based on man's interpretation of the Scripture:" To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the """""""Beginning"""""" of the creation of God, says this:.."   (Rev.3:14).

Now forgetting everything else so as to establish a common ground for discussion we must of necessity believe in just one of the two options.

I am declaring my total belief in the first number 1. The only Begotten Son of God. All I ask is which of the two is your choice? Only then can we continue or we'd be at cross purposes and it will just lead to confusion.

Well bro, for mine they are Both the same....who do you think this Christ is In Revelation...? ChristS name comes In many Metaphors Bro...

HE IS  The Beginning and END..The ALPHA and OMEGA....what does this mean to you?

for me,    it coincides and bears witness to the one you call No 2? 

Hi! Taffy

You see no difference in: "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:" (Rev.3:1) and this "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3). Who are you kidding brother, no, not me.

I have two pedigree dogs and begin a specialized kennel, I'm the creator of it but I hope I'm not part of the kennel.

But you believe in both so that puts us on different wavelengths so we have no common ground for discussion and must part agreeing to disagree as brothers.

Thanks for the input in any case, we are all entitled to our own beliefs. But before we part let me just explain one thing since you raised it; Grace.

What is Grace?

The subject of I Cor. 11:32 is JUDGING.
The subject of Titus 2:11 is GRACE AND SALVATION.

HOW does God "judge" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!.
HOW does God "grace and save" us? BY CHASTENING (#3811, paideuo)!

God JUDGES by chastening (I Cor. 11:32), and God GRACES by chastening (Titus 2:11).
By GRACE GOD JUDGES US and by JUDGING GOD GRACES US!

It's not a Sunday casual walk in the park.

Peace!

Roy
 

I so enjoy one way questions Roy...could you not answer ONE of mine above?

I suppose by your reasoning THIS is another Christ mentioned in Revelation?

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 
peace to you my friend

Blessings
T

[studier]

Hi! Brother SOtW

Absolutely, brother, have I at anytime disagreed with your quote?: "Each person is judged in accordance to what they built/planted, (1 Corinthians 3:10-15, Hebrews 6:7-8) and in the Day of Judgment what they built/planted is either a) saved or b) destroyed but it is by the Grace of God, that regardless whatever a person gained or lost, that they are saved (1 Corinthians 3:15, Hebrews 6:9).

What brought that up?

It was a clarification, not an issue of agreement or disagreement to prevent you from assuming I said something I did not.

What brought it up was earlier in this response to me: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3153.25 when you brought up Saddam.

Would you disagree if I were to say that Saddam would need longer in the purification process than you or I, surely we don't need as much as him? I can't see what all the nitpicking over a simple word can achieve? Can you?

Yes I would disagree, because only God knows the heart of man and their disposition to repentance when wrong has been been identified. We do not know the process duration because it is aionios, not aidios. There is no nitpicking over a simple word except by those who continue to deny what it actually means.

[Taffy]

There is no nitpicking over a simple word except by those who continue to deny what it actually means.

AMEN

[Molly]

Grace....MERCY...AND Righteous judgment.....AWESOME

Yes, it is awesome.  I think we are given an innate sense of fairness from him, and I have always believed that his judgments would be fair and true, and really, no surprise to anyone.







28Any person who has violated and [thus] rejected and set at naught the Law of Moses is put to death without pity or mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.

    29How much worse (sterner and heavier) punishment do you suppose he will be judged to deserve who has spurned and [thus] trampled underfoot the Son of God, and who has considered the covenant blood by which he was consecrated common and unhallowed, thus profaning it and insulting and outraging the [Holy] Spirit [Who imparts] grace (the unmerited favor and blessing of God)?

    30For we know Him Who said, Vengeance is Mine [retribution and the meting out of full justice rest with Me]; I will repay [I will exact the compensation], says the Lord. And again, The Lord will judge and determine and solve and settle the cause and the cases of His people.

    31It is a fearful (formidable and terrible) thing to incur the divine penalties and be cast into the hands of the living God!

    32But be ever mindful of the days gone by in which, after you were first spiritually enlightened, you endured a great and painful struggle,

    33Sometimes being yourselves a gazingstock, publicly exposed to insults and abuse and distress, and sometimes claiming fellowship and making common cause with others who were so treated.

    34For you did sympathize and suffer along with those who were imprisoned, and you bore cheerfully the plundering of your belongings and the confiscation of your property, in the knowledge and consciousness that you yourselves had a better and lasting possession.

    35Do not, therefore, fling away your fearless confidence, for it carries a great and glorious compensation of reward.

    36For you have need of steadfast patience and endurance, so that you may perform and fully accomplish the will of God, and thus receive and [e]carry away [and enjoy to the full] what is promised.

    37For still a little while (a very little while), and the Coming One will come and He will not delay.

    38But the just shall live by faith [My righteous servant shall live by his conviction respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, and holy fervor born of faith and conjoined with it]; and if he draws back and shrinks in fear, My soul has no delight or pleasure in him.

    39But our way is not that of those who draw back to eternal misery (perdition) and are utterly destroyed, but we are of those who believe [who cleave to and trust in and rely on God through Jesus Christ, the Messiah] and by faith preserve the soul.

--Hebrews 10

[martincisneros]

You see no difference in: "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:" (Rev.3:1) and this "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3). Who are you kidding brother, no, not me.

"Beginning of the creation of God" is sorta like "God's Creative Original" in the Concordant Literal New Testament.  You can read a contradiction to the rest of the Scriptures into it, if you wish, but it's just saying that He began God's Creation just as it says in John's Gospel, Colossians, and Hebrews.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Laren...

Sorry for veering  ...and I dont mean to 

BUT... I agree with Sotw... this is an awesome verse, and I have used myself many times while discussing ET with its believers!

Psa 30:5  For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favor is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

THIS LIFE, ...IS... the Lake of Fire...

That WRATH ...IS... revealed from Heaven... (Rom 1:18)  ...IN THIS LIFE...

The JUDGEMENT ...IS... NOW (John 12:31) ...IN THIS LIFE...

Our lives are but a VAPOR, which appears for a SHORT TIME (a moment NOW), then vanishes away... (James 4:14) ...IN THIS LIFE...

The "BOOKS" of our lives are OPEN "BOOKS", before Him NOW (Rev 20:12) ...IN THIS LIFE...

DEATH and the GRAVE are involved with us NOW! (Rev  20:14)! ...IN THIS LIFE...

I love this  :



 


Hope you dont mind me using them Roy... 

PeacE...

...willieH 

[Sarah]

Roy Monis,

My head is spinning with all of this created or begotten stuff. What the heck do you mean?

My son was begotten by my husband and I, and he was also created. I don't see the difference. Are you talking about pre-existence? Do you believe we must believe in Jesus's pre-existence to be legitimate? Is that the pivotal belief?

[Molly]

THIS LIFE, ...IS... the Lake of Fire...

I think it might be for us believers,--Judgment begins at the house of God-- but I don't know about the others.

I see a lot of wicked seeming to prosper.



1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

[studier]

THIS LIFE, ...IS... the Lake of Fire...

I think it might be for us believers,--Judgment begins at the house of God-- but I don't know about the others.

I see a lot of wicked seeming to prosper.



1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Believers don't go through the Lake of Fire. This cannot be the Lake of Fire, because it happens last.

[Taffy]

    29How much worse (sterner and heavier) punishment do you suppose he will be judged to deserve who has spurned and [thus] trampled underfoot the Son of God, and who has considered the covenant blood by which he was consecrated common and unhallowed, thus profaning it and insulting and outraging the [Holy] Spirit [Who imparts] grace (the unmerited favor and blessing of God)?

    30For we know Him Who said, Vengeance is Mine [retribution and the meting out of full justice rest with Me]; I will repay [I will exact the compensation], says the Lord. And again, The Lord will judge and determine and solve and settle the cause and the cases of His people.

    31It is a fearful (formidable and terrible) thing to incur the divine penalties and be cast into the hands of the living God!

Good Morning Molly..
do You recall a Post of NATHANS mentioning the difference of seeing whats Written on the surface BEING totally DIFFERENT to what understood beneath it?...If you see GOD as ONE of Torture, death etc,,thats what you will READ.

This again talks like many before it of those who fall way from their First Love, Christ within us....
First and foremost Molly check out the word Punishment in verse 29...timōria which can be undertood as ASSISTANCE or Rendering HELP

Are we Not Told Give place for His wrath , that Vengeance is HIS, vengeance ties in with the word Recompence( repay)

so where are we Recompenced? or how?..did you miss the LORD will JUDGE HIS PEOPLE MOLLY?..Judgment is NOW molly for the Church of GOD, read some more of WILLIE( the old Git    ) H posts which talk of NOW.

Heb 10:3 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

where?

Prov 11:31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.

 Prov 20:22 Say not thou, I will recompense evil; but wait on the LORD, and he shall save thee.




RECOMPENCED IN THE earth molly..WITHIN us...HE does repay Molly, .

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, "upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

ya could say Molly we reap what sow...By removing ourself From Grace we internally suffer a greater pressing and Anguish....


recall this verse/

Jhn 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

But what are Told Molly

 the LOvE of God conquers ALL


 Rom 8:35  Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Paul Talk to to Corinith very MUCH in the same vein to whats being talked of in Heb.

1Cr 11:27  Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

 1Cr 11:28  But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.


1Cr 11:29  For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

do you Notice Molly..for this cause.MANY are WEAK and sickly.....AND THEY ARE LIKENED TO THOSE WHO SLEEP?
hey girl One has to chastened( corrected) to ARISE from such SLUMBER

 1Cr 11:30  For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

AAGH molly...just what does this MEAN..., if we Judge ourselves KNOWING Christ LIVES within through FAITH we No need to BE Judged by HIM who chastises uS through HIS LOVE

 1Cr 11:31  For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.


 1Cr 11:32  But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

what does this mean Molly?.. those who EAT of HIS body AND DWELL in faith, THEY wait FOR THE SICKLY and aid their lack of understanding..THE MORE MATURE in the FAITH, the ELDERS etc...(..agin , like those who fell away,..same issue, different Book.

 1Cr 11:33  Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.


i leave this one with you?

 1Cr 11:34  And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

TOO ADD
God is a Jealous God,....He will devour the enmity of our flesh which keeps us from ONE UNION..the adversary lies within us ALL


Hbr 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.




God does not forsake us , HE corrects US, HE never leaves us, we leave HIM, THROUGH HIS LOVE he conquers ALL.

This all talks of the INWARD man which SHALL BE REVEALED.
 

[Molly]

If you see GOD as ONE of Torture, death etc,,thats what you will READ.

Hi Taffy, Just a little about my background on this--I have always seen God as a God of love, from my earliest life.   And this was evident in the way I lived my life.  In fact, I walked amongst vipers unscathed all the time because I just didn't see them--I thought everyone was basically good--and God always has protected me, even through some pretty hard times.

But--the last year or so, I have been taken on some kind of metaphysical grand tour of evil.  Things I never saw before are now plain as day.  How much evil there is in the world--and how bottomless it is--it's depth and shamelessness, seems endless to me now.  And, it's everywhere, in little deeds and big ones, small actions and huge ones.  Even Mother Theresa looks like some hardened, wizened old woman who had no love in her heart for anyone and who just cynically used her position to raise millions for her own agenda, not to help the poor.  So many illusions and liars everywhere.  It's sickening.

So right now I am welcoming a God of retribution.  I want to see all this evil gone from the face of the earth--the sooner the better. And, I'm recognizing, that real evil is without remorse, arrogant, smug, and self satisfied with its ability to dupe the world and crush the vulnerable--sadistic, cynical, and insane.  (Can you tell I've just been reading about the pedophile problem in the church?)

So there you have it--this is my season of discontent I guess.  Other than that, I didn't understand a word of what you just said in your post lol--although I recognize it is a general theme that you are trying to get across to me.

But, right now, I'm cheering on John the Baptist when he says--

"You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

10The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

--Mat 3


well, this is off topic except to say that ultimately it will be up to Jesus, who will be the judge.  Vengence  belongs to him.

[Taffy]

If you see GOD as ONE of Torture, death etc,,thats what you will READ.

Hi Taffy, Just a little about my background on this--I have always seen God as a God of love, from my earliest life.   And this was evident in the way I lived my life.  In fact, I walked amongst vipers unscathed all the time because I just didn't see them--I thought everyone was basically good--and God always has protected me, even through some pretty hard times.

But--the last year or so, I have been taken on some kind of metaphysical grand tour of evil.  Things I never saw before are now plain as day.  How much evil there is in the world--and how bottomless it is--it's depth and shamelessness, seems endless to me now.  And, it's everywhere, in little deeds and big ones, small actions and huge ones.  Even Mother Theresa looks like some hardened, wizened old woman who had no love in her heart for anyone who just cynically used her position to raise millions for her own agenda, not to help the poor.  So many illusions and liars everywhere.  It's sickening.

So right now I am welcoming a God of retribution.  I want to see all this evil gone from the face of the earth--the sooner the better. And, I'm recognizing, that real evil is without remorse, arrogant, smug, and self satisfied with its ability to dupe the world and crush the vulnerable--sadistic, cynical, and insane.

So there you have it--this is my season of discontent I guess.  Other than that, I didn't understand a word of what you just said in your post lol--although I recognize it is a general theme that you are trying to get across to me.

But, right now, I'm cheering on John the Baptist when he says--

"You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

10The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

--Mat 3


well, this is off topic except to say that ultimately it will be up to Jesus, who will be the judge.  Vengence is belongs to him.

Hey Molly

I did say """IF"""

Thanks for opening up some, gee i too see the world in similar vein..sick to the Core..im 47 ,but body is well toured and worn even thou its not that old....along with many mental and physical scares which bear testimony to it.

I can reason with your logic, ....................

I live for the HOPE within and the HOPE FOR ALL...



no worries if you didnt understand sis,. ...

Blessings
G

[pneuma]

You see no difference in: "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:" (Rev.3:1) and this "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3). Who are you kidding brother, no, not me.

Hi Roy, I'm late to this discussion, but you are saying that the Jesus speaking in Rev.3 is the anti-Christ and not the Christ.

So we are to disregard all the things he said concerning the churches? 

Are you sure its not your understanding of the scriptures that cause you to see Rev.3 as being of the anti Christ?

You base this on where it say "the Beginning of the creation of God"

You may not be aware of this Roy but "the beginning of the creation of God"   is the foundation stone on which the new creation is built upon, For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus.

So Jesus Christ is the beginning/foundation of the creation of God.

Rev.3 is not saying Jesus was created, its saying that in HIM are all things created.

God bless

[Taffy]

You see no difference in: "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:" (Rev.3:1) and this "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3). Who are you kidding brother, no, not me.

Hi Roy, I'm late to this discussion, but you are saying that the Jesus speaking in Rev.3 is the anti-Christ and not the Christ.

So we are to disregard all the things he said concerning the churches? 

Are you sure its not your understanding of the scriptures that cause you to see Rev.3 as being of the anti Christ?

You base this on where it say "the Beginning of the creation of God"

You may not be aware of this Roy but "the beginning of the creation of God"   is the foundation stone on which the new creation is built upon, For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus.

So Jesus Christ is the beginning/foundation of the creation of God.

Rev.3 is not saying Jesus was created, its saying that in HIM are all things created.

God bless

Hi Scott.
AMEN..
I truly was hoping bro Roy would also come to reach this conclusion

 

[martincisneros]

I think it might be for us believers,--Judgment begins at the house of God-- but I don't know about the others.

I see a lot of wicked seeming to prosper.

King David had this problem in one of the Psalms, until he went into the house of God and saw how the wicked would turn out.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

I'm thinking it's the next verse in the NASB that points out that if the righteous is saved with difficulty, what will become of the Godless man and the sinner?  First of all, how did the righteous become the righteous?  Were the righteous ever the Godless man and the sinner?  If the righteous is saved with difficulty, the Godless man and the sinner will be saved with difficulty.  Next verse: therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God (or in defiance to temptation, testing, and trial because of Christ's finished work) shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.  And the next few verses are about keeping every care cast upon the Lord because the same experiences (i.e. the exact same) are being accomplished by your brethren "who are in the world."

[Taffy]

I think it might be for us believers,--Judgment begins at the house of God-- but I don't know about the others.

I see a lot of wicked seeming to prosper.

King David had this problem in one of the Psalms, until he went into the house of God and saw how the wicked would turn out.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

I'm thinking it's the next verse in the NASB that points out that if the righteous is saved with difficulty, what will become of the Godless man and the sinner?  First of all, how did the righteous become the righteous?  Were the righteous ever the Godless man and the sinner?  If the righteous is saved with difficulty, the Godless man and the sinner will be saved with difficulty.  Next verse: therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God (or in defiance to temptation, testing, and trial because of Christ's finished work) shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.  And the next few verses are about keeping every care cast upon the Lord because the same experiences (i.e. the exact same) are being accomplished by your brethren "who are in the world."

yo Martin...

when I responded to Molly concerning the WICKED of the world ..I wasnt referRing to Scripture BUT to how she was seeing things Right now..

I always use the phrase for MINE...and this mentioned below is no different...each to their OWN

Its for sure, many think im nuts..
But first the Natural as shown in the OLD as with DAVID......which is the shadow of the New being spiritual..

For me the WICKED is the flesh WITHIN, that which enmity To the LAW of the spirit being Christ In us..

psalms and proverbs begin to come to life...

these few say all the same thing bro...altho to the carnal eye it may seem different.,,for me its isnt

Psa 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy

Psa 147:6 The LORD lifteth up the meek: he casteth the wicked down to the ground. 

Psa 119:155 Salvation [is] far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.


Psa 106:18 And a fire was kindled in their company; the flame burned up the wicked.




If one reads scripture thinking it means OTHERS,  for mine..it really speaks of US...the flesh and spirit...the two edged sword seperates the flesh FROM SPIRIT....therefore the flesh dies, and the spirit Lives via faith....

The tares are the flesh within US..HE is the WHEAT....what burns first,,always the flesh...whats left...HIM, its speak of the INWARD MAN.



you mention 1 peter about the righteous scarcely , meaning with difficulty..., heres a witness of such difficulty

Prov 11:31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.

the difficulty comes moving from the  Child brother... back those days, it was really difficult to leave the LAW of their fathers and believe in an nobody from Bethlehem....so scriptures uses words like these..


Jer 22:23 O inhabitant of Lebanon, that makest thy nest in the cedars, how gracious shalt thou be when pangs come upon thee, the pain as of a woman in travail! 

Tis called giving Birth ...the pain , the anguish of moving from Child Under law...to a SON of faith.....
Jhn 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. 


This martin ,IS what Peter is referring to brother..with difficulty one is saved....

Laren, Willie H and Craig will love this scrip....



For wrath is  GOOD brother as is HIS vengeance with recompense....as noted to Molly....althou it was very brief in description

Psa 30:5 For his anger [endureth but] a moment; in his favour [is] life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy [cometh] in the morning.

Joy, my Dear Brother is another Title hidden given to our LORD.....

 Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

WELL IM JABBERING....


Ill quote HIS WORDS all day long..and if bores people....WELL what can one say....but willie has a few to pick from

Maybe Molly this will aid you also.


Blessings to you Both

Taffy

[Taffy]

I'm thinking it's the next verse in the NASB that points out that if the righteous is saved with difficulty, what will become of the Godless man and the sinner?  First of all, how did the righteous become the righteous?  Were the righteous ever the Godless man and the sinner?  If the righteous is saved with difficulty, the Godless man and the sinner will be saved with difficulty.  Next verse: therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God (or in defiance to temptation, testing, and trial because of Christ's finished work) shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.  And the next few verses are about keeping every care cast upon the Lord because the same experiences (i.e. the exact same) are being accomplished by your brethren "who are in the world."

Drr Martin...just re-read your post matey..and realised we  saying similar things...
scripture just says it better for my understanding...

[martincisneros]

Its for sure many think im nuts..

Those that love the Father love His kid as well, those that don't love His kid don't love the Father either.  I stopped worrying about what people with unrenewed minds think a long time ago 'cause they're tossed to and fro with every wind, every emotion, every book, everything on television, etc.  The Bible teaches that someone that's not renewed in the spirit of their minds isn't the least bit stable, so why worry about it, right?  Which is worse, the person that can act crazy 'cause they're just having fun, but all of their boundaries are in place -- or, the person that can act crazy because they genuinely are floating between realities and have no firm foundation in all things being theirs, in all of their enemies being their footstool, in their seating with Christ, and in the expression of His High Priesthood through them?  Jesus' mother, sisters, and brothers came RUNNING to get Him one time 'cause they thought He'd snapped because He wasn't living according to the religious rules, was having too much fun, and was establishing how things would turn out.  The descendants of Jesus' mother, brothers, and sisters are with us to the present day

As far as I'm concerned, I'm at the resurrection year of my life, whatever any nay sayers would ever care to say about it.  Life's only going to get better, regardless of any doomsday prophets.  Weeping's already endured enough nights, and now the dawning of joy has come.  'Cause I'm a Postmillenialist, I get asked all of the time about this tribulation passage or that tribulation passage and they're usually dumbfounded when I ask "haven't you already had 7 years of tribulation in your life?  Why are you looking for more tribulation?  To expect more tribulation after we've already had tribulation -- how loving is that towards the people that Christ shed His Blood for to bring them out of their tribulation?  Get out of your tribulation in the Name of Jesus!  You're not called to tribulation but to reign with Christ and to bring people out of their great tribulation!!"

[Taffy]

In Christian eschatology, postmillennialism is an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees Christ's second coming as occurring after (Latin post-) the "Millennium", a Golden Age or era of Christian prosperity and dominance. The term subsumes several similar views of the end times, and it stands in contrast to premillennialism and, to a lesser extent, amillennialism

Although some postmillennialists hold to a literal millennium of 1,000 years, most postmillennialists see the thousand years more as a figurative term for a long period of time (similar in that respect to amillennialism). Among those holding to a non-literal "millennium" it is usually understood to have already begun, which implies a less obvious and less dramatic kind of millennium than that typically envisioned by premillennialists, as well as a more unexpected return of Christ.

Postmillennialism also teaches that the forces of Satan will gradually be defeated by the expansion of the Kingdom of God throughout history up until the second coming of Christ. This belief that good will gradually triumph over evil has led proponents of postmillennialism to label themselves "optimillennialists" in contrast to "pessimillennial" premillennialists and amillennialists.

Many postmillennialists also adopt some form of preterism, which holds that many of the end times prophecies in the Bible have already been fulfilled.


well..for sure this aint telling me much either...man...I can just imagine people years back going..Im a.....Yaeh and Im a....sounds awful complicated..WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO SIMPLICITY.

OK,,Martin..spill the beans matey..where do you fit in the above, give me a Platform to work from bud.

 

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Molly

Your quote from above: " Father still enveloped that which had been conceived naturally and blessed it?"  How would that be possible Molly, considering that Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit BEFORE Mary and Joseph came together. She had already conceived the Word in the body/Jesus that had been prepared for Him. "But a body You have prepared for Me; (Heb.10:5).

Jesus was the Word the Son of God in the Mary's womb before Joseph had relations with her. That's what that Scripture is saying to me, can you not see it?

Peace! url=http://www.glitter-graphics.com][/url

Roy   UK

Yes, it had nothing to do with Joseph--Mary was a virgin. (I'm not sure which quote you mean, but I don't think it's mine).

I know of Catholics who are shocked when you tell them that Jesus existed before he was born a baby in Bethlehem.

I studied with the JW's for a while--at least they were willing to study the Bible with me, and they came to my house--very nice people.   But around 6 months into it, they announced that Jesus was the archangel Michael, and not God.   So that was the end of that but, before we parted ways, I showed them scripture that rendered them speechless.

So there are groups of people that don't understand, besides the Jews that is, but it is because they do not read, or do not believe, the Bible.

Hi! Molly

Forgive me, old age I suppose is responsible but the quote I ascribed to you was actually SeekerSA's and not yours. Sorry for the confusion.

You're absolutely right, the JWs believe the same as the SDA founded by Ellen Gould White who was the first to claim that Jesus was the archangel Michael. But the Bible tells a different story. Jesus Christ the Word/God existed in the bosom of the Father from the very beginning, before creation, when there was only God the Father. "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (J.1:18). There's no arguing about that, now is there?

No Jesus had nothing whatsoever to do with Joseph and Mary other than the physical birthing process and they acting as His sort of guardians or earthly parents but they were not His biological parents. The Bible is perfectly clear on that. Long before Joseph had relations with Mary, while she was yet a virgin the Holy Spirit of the Father implanted the seed of the prepared body and the Word into Mary's womb and she conceived."Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus......"   (Matt.1:18-21).

Do not be tempted by those who want you to believe in a created Jesus Christ rather than the True Jesus Christ Born of the Father, they are not the same. The created Christ is an idol and the Chrisy Born of the Father is God, that's the difference. If worshiped the idol we deny the Creator God and Jesus has something to say about that. "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven."  (Matt.10:32-33).

I know who I believe in and I'm confessing Him right here and will do to the world.

Peace![/url

Roy   UK

   

[martincisneros]

Sounds a little like the wikipedia article on it, which might explain some of your confusion on it

In Christian eschatology, postmillennialism is an interpretation of chapter 20 of the Book of Revelation which sees Christ's second coming as occurring after (Latin post-) the "Millennium", a Golden Age or era of Christian prosperity and dominance. The term subsumes several similar views of the end times, and it stands in contrast to premillennialism and, to a lesser extent, amillennialism.  Although some postmillennialists hold to a literal millennium of 1,000 years, most postmillennialists see the thousand years more as a figurative term for a long period of time (similar in that respect to amillennialism).

That's fine so far, as far as a definition.  Jesus doesn't come back in Revelation 19 in the Cosmic Rambo scenario envisioned by many Premillenialists.  A very strong outpouring of the Holy Spirit does begin at that time though which slays the wickedness from the wicked.  I can handle the millenium being a thousand years or several thousand years.  I won't have a fall-out with anyone over the Jewish calendar or the Gentile calendar either where that's concerned.

Among those holding to a non-literal "millennium" it is usually understood to have already begun, which implies a less obvious and less dramatic kind of millennium than that typically envisioned by premillennialists, as well as a more unexpected return of Christ.

This part sounds like they're confusing Amillenialists with Postmillenialists 'cause the millenium of a Postmillenialist is more obvious and very dramatic in seeing the fulfillment of the Holy Spirit being poured out upon all flesh.

Postmillennialism also teaches that the forces of Satan will gradually be defeated by the expansion of the Kingdom of God throughout history up until the second coming of Christ. This belief that good will gradually triumph over evil has led proponents of postmillennialism to label themselves "optimillennialists" in contrast to "pessimillennial" premillennialists and amillennialists.

Again, works for me so far on the definition side, though obviously the "throughout history" part would be inclusive of the millenium.  This is in contrast with the premillenial "big bang" of Jesus returning and for a thousand years doing all that He told us to do in winning and discipling the nations.

Many postmillennialists also adopt some form of preterism, which holds that many of the end times prophecies in the Bible have already been fulfilled.

My views of Scripture would be both partial preterist and futurist 'cause I don't believe all of the prophecies have been fulfilled yet, though many statements from Jesus and St. Paul were fulfilled in the 1st century.

....sounds awful complicated..WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO SIMPLICITY.  OK,,Martin..spill the beans matey..where do you fit in the above, give me a Platform to work from bud.

I'd already given a partial response to your question at this link:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2751.msg32498#msg32498
If anything's still unclear, just let me know.

[Taffy]

Yo Martin
Thanks

posted the above while you were composing yours ....

im just working my way through it all

[martincisneros]

Yo Martin
Thanks

posted the above while you were composing yours ....

im just working my way through it all

Same here.  I don't know it all, but a lot more has been making sense to me over the last 7 years than ever has in my entire life.  God's been answering all of my childhood questions.  What do I do if I run out of questions for God?  I'm getting there fast!