Author Topic: Bible contradictions? (between translations)  (Read 2775 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« on: August 31, 2008, 10:48:32 AM »
/EDIT
The reason (and solution) to mentioned contradictions is explained in the thread started by Pierac

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3320.0







http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm

Sure many of you stumbled on such sites.
I'm sure there are answers for all of them. Even I figured out a few. It would be nice if we together could explain every contradiction in the list...


1KI 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2CH 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.

How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?
2KI 8:26 22
2CH 22:2 42


« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 11:29:04 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bible contradictions?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2008, 12:17:29 PM »
Years of famine -> different translations different number of years.

2Sa 24:13

(ASV)  So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thy foes while they pursue thee? or shall there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise thee, and consider what answer I shall return to him that sent me.

(BBE)  So Gad came to David, and gave him word of this and said to him, Are there to be three years when there is not enough food in your land? or will you go in flight from your haters for three months, while they go after you? or will you have three days of violent disease in your land? take thought and say what answer I am to give to him who sent me.

(CLV) And Gad comes in unto David, and declares to him, and said to him, `Do seven years of famine come in to you in your land? or three months are you fleeing before your adversary--and he pursuing you? or are three days' pestilence in your land? now, know and see what word I take back to Him sending me..

(Darby)  And Gad came to David, and told him, and said to him, Shall seven years of famine come to thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine adversaries while they pursue thee? or shall there be three days' pestilence in thy land? Now be aware and consider what word I shall bring again to him that sent me.


(DRB)  And when Gad was come to David, he told him, saying: Either seven years of famine shall come to thee in thy land: or thou shalt flee three months before thy adversaries, and they shall pursue thee: or for three days there shall be a pestilence in thy land. Now therefore deliberate, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me.

(ESV)  So Gad came to David and told him, and said to him, "Shall three years of famine come to you in your land? Or will you flee three months before your foes while they pursue you? Or shall there be three days' pestilence in your land? Now consider, and decide what answer I shall return to him who sent me."

(Geneva)  So Gad came to Dauid, and shewed him, and said vnto him, Wilt thou that seuen yeeres famine come vpon thee in thy lande, or wilt thou flee three moneths before thine enemies, they following thee, or that there bee three dayes pestilence in thy land? nowe aduise thee, and see, what answere I shal giue to him that sent me.

(GNB)  Gad went to him, told him what the LORD had said, and asked, "Which is it to be? Three years of famine in your land or three months of running away from your enemies or three days of an epidemic in your land? Now think it over, and tell me what answer to take back to the LORD."

(GW)  When Gad came to David, he told David this and asked, "Should seven years of famine come to you and your land, or three months during which you flee from your enemies as they pursue you, or should there be a three-day plague in your land? Think it over, and decide what answer I should give the one who sent me."


(JPS)  So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him: 'Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thy foes while they pursue thee? or shall there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise thee, and consider what answer I shall return to Him that sent Me.'

(KJV)  So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me.

(KJV-1611)  So Gad came to Dauid, and told him, and said vnto him, Shall seuen yeeres of famine come vnto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three moneths before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three dayes pestilence in thy land? Now aduise, and see what answere I shall returne to him that sent me.

(KJVA)  So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me.

(KJVR)  So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me.

(LITV)  And Gad came in to David and told him, and said to him, Shall seven years of famine come to you in your land? Or shall you flee before your adversary three months, and they pursue you? Or shall three days' plague come into your land? Now consider, and see what I shall take back to Him who sent word to me.

(MKJV)  And Gad came to David, and told him, and said to him, Shall seven years of famine come upon you and on your land? Or will you flee three months before your enemies while they pursue you? Or shall there be three days' plague in your land? And advise, and see what answer I shall return to Him who sent me.

(Rotherham) So Gad came in unto David, and told him,—and said to him: Shall there come unto thee seven years of famine in thy land? Or, for three months, wilt thou flee before thine enemies while, they, pursue thee? Or shall there be, for three days, pestilence in thy land? Now, consider and see, what, answer, I shall return to him that sent me.

(RV)  So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thy foes while they pursue thee? or shall there be three days pestilence in thy land? now advise thee, and consider what answer I shall return to him that sent me.

(Webster)  So Gad came to David, and told him, and said to him, Shall seven years of famine come upon thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thy enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? Now consider, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me.

(YLT)  And Gad cometh in unto David, and declareth to him, and saith to him, `Do seven years of famine come in to thee in thy land? or three months art thou fleeing before thine adversary--and he pursuing thee? or are three days' pestilence in thy land? now, know and see what word I take back to Him sending me.'

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bible contradictions?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2008, 01:36:53 PM »
How many stalls and horsemen?
1KI 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2CH 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.



Only the BBE translation seems to be ok with 4000 stalls in both Kings and Chronicles
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2008, 05:36:14 PM »

Personally I am not of the religious sort that maintains that the "written" word of God is inerrant.   This is a belief that is easily proven to be ridiculous.

For me the inerrancy is that Gods spirit and what he teaches us will not contradict the concepts in the bible.

I have yet to see anyone provide a foolproof contradiction in the concepts of Gods unfailing love to reconcile all men.   

There are a few possibly foolproof contradictions when the bible is intepreted in the light of never ending punishment.   

What you show here to me are differences in what the writers wrote,  rather than contradictions that cause me to question the scriptures.


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2008, 07:14:18 PM »
Paul,

I was never implying God/Jesus made mistakes while dictating the Bible.
Unless the translators are guided by HS most/all of the translations will contain errors.
But such translation errors are very loved by those who want to ridicule the Bible/God/Jesus/religion.
Most of the contradictions are not of real value. Who cares if it where 4000 or 40000 boxes.

But just saying it's not about the Book but about God Himself is a bit of a "weak" answer.
Just place yourself in my position for a while. Zero Bible knowledge. No contact/voices/visions etc.
I just start asking questions. And if things get though I can't understand because I think carnally and not spiritually.
I won't deny that.
When I ask about translation problems I shouldn't bother but look at it spiritually.
So basically 'everyone' advices to learn about love of God.
But how should I do that? I can't carnally learn translations that are corrupted. And even if they where correct the carnal knowledge is useless because only spiritual knowledge is of value.


Paul this is NOT some sort assault on you! Let that be clear.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2008, 07:34:15 PM »

Hi White Wings,

I was not thinking you were making this a personal thing.   I understand your position entirely and I agree for the most part.

Most people that ask how to seek Gods love have a preconception of God based on what they hear about him.  Yes, this is a confusing time for someone, because why should you even believe me when I tell you something.  Perfectly understandable.

One thing I do believe is that because God has the power to bring all to him means that He can do it without the use of the bible.   

My advise to you, for whatever it is worth is that only God can reveal himself to you, and he may do that through a variety of ways. With that said, what I know is that everyone understands Love to a certain degree, everyone.   If you conclude in your present state of mind and what you have come to believe,  that Love should be unconditional, that Love is possible to give even to your worst enemy, then indeed,  you have seen God.


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2008, 07:50:51 PM »
If you conclude in your present state of mind and what you have come to believe,  that Love should be unconditional, that Love is possible to give even to your worst enemy, then indeed,  you have seen God.


If you are doing a crossword puzzle and the need to enter something in 6 vertical for "doubt" try "WhiteWings"
The chances are high it will fit  :laughing7:

Must be one of my most clear posts ever

Signed,
Tony aka WhiteWings aka  :icon_king: of  :icon_joker:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Pierac

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2008, 09:45:59 PM »
Almost all of the O.T. contradictions can be removed by simply using the Septuagint! Even Jesus and his disciples quoted from the Septuagint well over 98% of the time. Unfortunately, we have the Masoretic texts in our bibles today. (Not really a big problem except for apologetics.)

Also note:


Common Sense, A New Approach to understanding Scripture by David Bercot

Manuscript/Bible time line:

TORAH: Dated to the time of Moses
Samaritan Pentateuch : 300 B.C.
Septuagint (LXX) OT: 250 B.C.

JESUS :

Aramaic Pecrapta : 100-150 A.D.
Diatesseron: 170-200 A.D. (4 Gospels) / Tatiain
Chester Beaty Papyrus (200 AD)
Vatican NT : 250 A.D.
Sinai NT: 250 A.D.
Codex Bezae  (300 AD)
Alexandrian NT: 350 A.D. 
Masoretic Text O.T.  900 -1000 A.D.
Latin Vulgate OT / NT 350 A.D.
King James Version 1611 A.D.

MASORETIC TEXT O.T.  900 A.D.

The oldest translations of the ENTIRE Masoret Tanakh tend to come from the Leningrad Codex of 1008 AD.  There's another from 925 AD, but nothing
before that date has all the books of the Tanakh.   So our oldest Masoret texts are from a rather recent date. There are a few Torahs from further back than that.  There are partial scrolls from further back than that.  But often the translation we generally get is from a text that is only about 1000 years old.



Paul


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2008, 08:18:19 AM »
What Bible translation is based mostly on those Septuagint?

Common Sense, A New Approach to understanding Scripture by David Bercot

I try to use that but as a newbie I have to start literally. Altough there are contractions I always believed they where manmade.
I wrote this several times I think; but I somehow just can't read the Bible. My mind wanders away after 2 verses.
But things like this, 'scientific' and 'linguistic' threads somehow wake me up and I start reading verses, Google, boards, books, etc.
You know I doubted starting this thread because Martin stated that Gary forbids threads that discredit the Bible.
I guess this thread and many of my other posts seem attacks on the Bible.
I want the crew including Gary take note of the following: My 'attacks' are either just sarcasm or planned 'attacks' that I know will be rebuked with 1000 verses. Great learning points for me.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Nathan

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2008, 05:06:22 PM »
Personally, God is bringing me to a different place in this than where I've been in the past.  I don't discredit the Bible, but I do believe the true benefit of Scripture is what lies beneath rather than what's literally on the surface of the written words.  I have stated, and it's actually one of the things that got me in trouble with the denomination I'm affiliated with . . .I've said "that book laying on your lap is not the inspired word of God . . .it's merely a translation of the inspired word of God."

I believe there are pictures in Scripture where we're to lay down the Word until we learn how to apply it effectively. 

I believe the Word that's written was meant to be literally applied to those who it was written to then . .but not to us now. 

I believe that we're to apply it to ourselves (not to each other)  "morally" (not literally) and pursue what it is really saying "spiritually."

I believe it's a book of seeds for the purpose of planting, not warfare.

I believe that it "was" at one point used as a weapon . .it's a sword to those who lived in the days of labor . .but the days of labor have come to a close and we're now seeing the dawning of the 7th day . .the day of rest, where now, the Word . .which is still just as important as before . . . is applied from a different perspective, one of rest rather than one of works.

So even though we find words that seem to clash with what the original Hebrew meant . .the definitions can "enhance" and point to the truth, but still, only when the Spirit "breathes" on what is there, will you then truly understand it's purpose.  Jesus said his words are life and SPIRIT.  And my mind is always at emnity with God . . .my NATURAL reasoning does not have the capacity to grasp the SPIRITUAL truth unless the SPIRIT of God reveals it to my SPIRIT first.

This, to me is why we're called to walk in the spirit and not after the flesh, and . .we're not to lean on our own understanding (Proverbs 3:5)

I've heard some who are explaining UR believe that God didn't leave the decision for our eternal end up to us . .and with good reason . . .well, I also believe that God doesn't leave the truth of his word up to the limited understanding within our minds either.  I don't depend on what I've been taught, by others or myself . . .I totally rely now, on what the Spirit shows me whether I fully understand it or not.  In fact, if it doesn't make sense to me, chances are, it's God because my thoughts are not like his thoughts . . .

Just thinking out loud now.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2008, 06:40:43 PM »
Personally, God is bringing me to a different place in this than where I've been in the past.  I don't discredit the Bible, but I do believe the true benefit of Scripture is what lies beneath rather than what's literally on the surface of the written words.  I have stated, and it's actually one of the things that got me in trouble with the denomination I'm affiliated with . . .I've said "that book laying on your lap is not the inspired word of God . . .it's merely a translation of the inspired word of God."

I don't agree with that Nathan.
I believe that Book on your lap is 100% word of God (besides translation errors)
Jesus (God?) said we, humanity, won't have full understanding of it. Simply put we are to stupid to understand.
For me the Book has lets call it several layers of truth. All 100% true but all require more/different knowledge.
Reaching the next level means you add to your knowledge. Not replace former lies with the truth at this level.
I think all levels can be synced. But because you, and likely noone besides God/Jesus/HS, doesn't mean the layers are wrong. Just that we are to stupid.
The clash with your denomination is perhaps just that you are at a different layer....?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Pierac

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2008, 02:04:47 AM »
What Bible translation is based mostly on those Septuagint?

Not translations but quotes.

Occasions where The Septuagint Is Quoted in the New Testament against the sense of the Hebrew text

Enoch was not, because God translated him
Gen 5.24 quoted in Heb 11.5

To thy seed
Gn 12.7 quoted in Ga 3.16

Jacob ... worshipped, leaning on the top of his staff
Gen 47.31 quoted in Heb 11.21

Wouldest thou kill me, as thou killest the Egyptian yesterday?
Ex 2.14 quoted in Ac 7.27-28

My name might be published abroad in all the earth
Ex 9.16 quoted in Ro 9.17

A royal priesthood
Ex 19.6 quoted in 1 Pe 2.9

The Lord knoweth them that are his
Nu 16.5 quoted in 2 Tm 2.19

Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God
Dt 6.13 quoted in Mt 4.10 and Lk 4.8

Put away the wicked man from among yourselves
Dt 17.7 quoted in 1 Cor 5.13

Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree
Dt 21.23 quoted in Ga 3.13

Cursed is everyone who continueth not
Dt 27.26 quoted in Ga 3.10

Let all the angels of God worship him
Dt 32.43 quoted in He 1.6

Why did the Gentiles rage?
Ps 2.1-2 quoted in Ac 4.25-26

Their throat is an open sepulchre
Ps 5.9 quoted in Ro 3.13

Out of the mouth of babes
Ps 8.2 quoted in Mt 21.16

What is man, that thou art mindful of him?
Ps 8.4-6 quoted in He 2.6-8

Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness
Ps 10.7 quoted in Ro 3.14

They are together become unprofitable
Ps 14.1-3 quoted in Ro 3.10-12

Thou wilt not leave my soul unto Hades
Ps 16.8-11 quoted in Ac 2.25-28

Their sound went out into all the earth
Ps 19.4 quoted in Ro 10.18

I will declare thy name unto my brethren
Ps 22.22 quoted in He 2.12

Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not
Ps 40.6-8 quoted in He 10.5-6

That thou mightest be justified in thy words
Ps 51.4 quoted in Ro 3.4

They are together become unprofitable
Ps 53.1-3 quoted in Ro 3.10-12

Let their table be made a snare
Ps 69.22-23 quoted in Ro 11.9-10

He gave them bread out of heaven to eat
Ps 78.24 quoted in Jn 6.31

Today, if ye shall hear his voice
Ps 95.7-8 quoted in He 3.15 and He 4.7

Today, if ye shall hear his voice
Ps 95.7-11 quoted in He 3.7-11

And they all shall wax old as doth a garment
Ps 102.25-27 quoted in He 1.10-12

I believed, and therefore did I speak
Ps 116.10 quoted in 2 Cor 4.13

The Lord is my helper
Ps 118.6 quoted in He 13.6

The poison of asps in under their lips
Ps 140.3 quoted in Ro 3.13

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth
Pr 3.11-12 quoted in He 12.5-6

God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble
Pr  3.34 quoted in James 4.6 and 1 Pe 5.5

And if the righteous is scarcely saved, 
where shall the ungodly and sinner appear
Pr 11.31 quoted in 1 Pe 4.18

If thine enemy hunger, feed him
Pr 25.21-22 quoted in Ro 12.20

Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, 
we should have been as Sodom
Is 1.9 quoted in Ro 9.29

By hearing ye shall hear, and in no wise understand
Is 6.9-10 quoted in Mt 13.14-15 and Mk 4.12

By hearing ye shall hear, and in no wise understand
Is 6.9-10 quoted in Ac 28.26-27

Lest they should see with their eyes ... and I should heal them
Is 6.9-10 quoted in John 12.40

Behold, the virgin shall be with child
Is 7.14 quoted in Mt. 1.23

I will put my trust in him
Is 8.17 quoted in He 2.13

It is the remnant that shall be saved
Is 10.22-23 quoted in Ro 9.27-28

On him shall the Gentiles hope
Is 11.10 quoted in Ro 15.12

When I shall take away their sins
Is 27.9 quoted in Ro 11.27

He that believeth on him shall not be put to shame
Is 28.16 quoted in Ro 9.33, 10.11 and 1 Pe 2.6

Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men
Is 29.13 quoted in Mt 15.8-9 and Mk 7.6-7

I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
Is 29.14 quoted in 1 Cor 1.19

All flesh shall see the salvation of God
Is 40.3-5 quoted in Lk 3.4-6

The voice of one crying in the wilderness
Is 40.3 quoted in Mt 3.3, Mk 1.3 and Jn 1.23

All flesh is as grass
Is 40.6-8 quoted in 1 Pt 1.24-25

Who hath known the mind of the Lord? 
Is 40.13 quoted in Ro 11.34 and 1 Cor 2.16

And in his name shall the Gentiles hope
Is 42.4 quoted in Mt 12.21

A people for God's own possession
Is 43.21 quoted in 1 Pe 2.9

To me every knee shall bow
Is 45.23 quoted in Ro 14.11

At an acceptable time I hearkened unto thee
Is 49.8 quoted in 2 Cor 6.2

For the name of God is blasphemed 
among the Gentiles because of you
Is 52.5 quoted in Ro 2.24

They shall see, to whom no tidings of him came
Is 52.15 quoted in Ro 15.21

Who has believed our report?
Is 53.1 quoted in Jn 12.38 and Ro 10.16

He was led as a sheep to the slaughter
Is 53.7-8 quoted in Ac 8.32-33

Neither was guile found in his mouth
Is 53.9 quoted in 1 Pt 2.22

Rejoice thou barren that bearest not
Is 54.1 quoted in Ga 4.27

The holy and sure blessings of David
Is 55.3 quoted in Ac 13.34

To set at liberty them that are bruised
Is 58.6 in Luke 4.18

He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob
Is 59.20-21 quoted in Ro 11.26-27

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me
Is 61.1-2 quoted in Lk 4.18-19

I was found of them that sought me not
Is 65.1 quoted in Ro 10.20

A disobedient and gainsaying people
Is 65.2 quoted in Ro 10.21

Behold, the days come
Jer 31.31-34 quoted in He 8.8-12

I will put my laws on their heart
Jer 31.33-34 quoted in He 10.16-17

I will call that my people, which was not my people
Ho 2.23 quoted in Ro 9.25

I desire mercy, and not sacrifice
Ho 6.6 quoted in Mt 9.13 and 12.7

O death, where is thy sting?
Ho 13.14 quoted in 1 Cor 15.55

I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh
Jl 2.28-32 quoted in Ac 2.17-21

Ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch
Am 5.25-27 quoted in Ac 7.42-43

I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen
Am 9.11-12 quoted in Ac 15.16-17

For I work a work in your days,
which ye shall in no wise believe
Hab 1.5 quoted in Ac 13.41

But my righteous one shall live by faith
Hab 2.3-4 quoted in He 10.37-38




Occasions where a Masoretic Reading Is Quoted in the New Testament against the sense of the Septuagint
 

He that taketh the wise in their craftiness
Job 5.13 quoted in 1 Cor 3.19

Who hath first given to him
Job 41.11 quoted in Ro 11.35

A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence
Is 8.14 quoted in Ro 9.33 and 1 Pe 2.8

Out of Egypt did I call my son
Ho 11.1 quoted in Mt 2.15

They shall look on him whom they pierced
Zch 12.10 quoted in Jn 19.37

Behold, I send my messenger before thy face
Mal 3.1 quoted in Mt 11.10, Mk 1.2, and Lk 7.27


 :thumbsup:

Paul

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2008, 08:08:41 PM »
What Bible translation is based mostly on those Septuagint?

Not translations but quotes.

For me quotes are also translations  :grin:
But lets not nitpick over that. I'll rephrase my question.
What translation/version of the Bible has the least wrong quotes.

Today I have been playing a lot with e-Sword. Bit of configuration. Searching for add-ons.
Cool all those downloads. But is it really useful to have 30 different Bibles loaded.
My first aim is to cut that list down to 10.
A good start, and my most important reason, is to remove translations that contain lots of errors. Or just translations that are about the same.
For example I see many modern translations. They are all equally good readable for me. Of course the wording is slightly different but they look all the same. But 'look' isn't always 'saying' if you understand what I'm saying :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Pierac

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2008, 03:23:14 AM »
What Bible translation is based mostly on those Septuagint?

Not translations but quotes.

For me quotes are also translations  :grin:
But lets not nitpick over that. I'll rephrase my question.
What translation/version of the Bible has the least wrong quotes.

Today I have been playing a lot with e-Sword. Bit of configuration. Searching for add-ons.
Cool all those downloads. But is it really useful to have 30 different Bibles loaded.
My first aim is to cut that list down to 10.
A good start, and my most important reason, is to remove translations that contain lots of errors. Or just translations that are about the same.
For example I see many modern translations. They are all equally good readable for me. Of course the wording is slightly different but they look all the same. But 'look' isn't always 'saying' if you understand what I'm saying :laughing7:

Go to my Septuagint Thread and download as many e-sword bibles as your Computer can hold using the links I provided. It is very useful to have many different bibles!

Personally for me, I always start with the NASB and then head to the KJV. These two bibles hold most of the varient readings. I always compare these two.  We know the NASB uses the most up todate 'superior Greek text'. But does this always make this translation the best?  No, not always, as every version has it's own  bias.  Let's Look!



NASB John 1:18  No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

KJV John 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

So which is it? Begotten God or Son?


KJV  Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

NASB  Isa 45:7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating Calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

Calamity or Evil?


KJV Ecc 3:10  I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it. 11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

NASB Ecc 3:10  I have seen the task which God has given the sons of men with which to occupy themselves. 11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

Well, both suck as translations here! This is why you need more…. And the best so far is…

CLV Ecc 3:10 I see the experience that Elohim gives To the sons of humanity to humble them by it. 11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."

Don't believe me, then time for a word study of   ‛ôlâm !

NASB Exo 21:6  then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.

KJV Exo 21:6
  Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.

Well who is it?  God or judges?   Hint it's judges. But research it your self!



KJV  Gal 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

NASB Gal 2:16  nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

So is it the faith of Christ? Or our faith in Christ?   My studies have lead to  "of."   But hey, do you own research! That's why you need all you can get!


NIV Act 21:40  Having received the commander's permission, Paul stood on the steps and motioned to the crowd. When they were all silent, he said to them in
Aramaic:

NASB Act 21:40  When he had given him permission, Paul, standing on the stairs, motioned to the people with his hand; and when there was a great hush, he spoke to them in the Hebrew dialect, saying,

So WhiteWings, did Paul speak Aramaic or Hebrew?  It's was Hebrew, but you need to look for your self!  :thumbsup:


Paul






« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 05:09:07 AM by Pierac »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2008, 06:25:15 AM »
My first source for reading is the program at http://www.scripture4all.org

The main window of that program is the hebrew and greek and the literal translation.  I starts with the (as far as I know) unbiased translation without being formed into english ruled sentences which can then is where the bias can be added.

So


NASB John 1:18  No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

KJV John 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

So which is it? Begotten God or Son?

The astericks are my addition to make it easier to see word division in my post,  it is easy when viewing the program

Literal :  God * not-yet-one * has-seen * as-when * only-generated * God * the * one-being *
into * the * bosom * of-the * father * that-one * unfolds


« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 06:28:51 AM by Paul Hazelwood »

Offline Pierac

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2008, 06:59:35 AM »
My first source for reading is the program at http://www.scripture4all.org

The main window of that program is the hebrew and greek and the literal translation.  I starts with the (as far as I know) unbiased translation without being formed into english ruled sentences which can then is where the bias can be added.

So


NASB John 1:18  No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

KJV John 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

So which is it? Begotten God or Son?

The astericks are my addition to make it easier to see word division in my post,  it is easy when viewing the program

Literal :  God * not-yet-one * has-seen * as-when * only-generated * God * the * one-being *
into * the * bosom * of-the * father * that-one * unfolds

I use the Intralineral Scripture Analyzer too! Just note, it's creators are the same as the CLV Bible. Not a bad thing, but something to just keep in mind when doing research.  BTW, I really like the CLV Bible, but it has it's limits too.

Paul
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 07:01:54 AM by Pierac »

Offline Molly

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2008, 07:33:55 AM »
Quote from: Pierac
So which is it? Begotten God or Son?

Same thing.

Jesus is God in the flesh--the Word become flesh--the Son of God, carrying all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

--Titus 2


Offline Molly

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2008, 07:47:57 AM »
Quote from: Pierac
NASB Exo 21:6  then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.

KJV Exo 21:6  Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.

Well who is it?  God or judges?   Hint it's judges. But research it your self!

Same thing.

The word for 'gods' or 'judges' is 'ĕlôhîym.


"judges"

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhîym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.


I have said, Ye are gods...but you will die like men...

--Psalm 82

He's speaking to the judges and magistrates of Israel.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2008, 08:42:31 AM »
Paul,

I installed the program you advised.
I'm now trying to investigate the quotes Pierac mentioned.

For example:
Who hath known the mind of the Lord? 
Is 40.13 quoted in Ro 11.34 and 1 Cor 2.16

Is it possible to view 2 or more verses side by side?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2008, 12:10:10 PM »
The whole concept of Masoretic and Septuagint text is completely knew for me. So another set of questions to get things more clear for me.

Both Masoretic and Septuagint translators have translated the oldest Hebrew texts to Greek. Most modern translations use the Greek Masoretic  Bible as the source text.
The Septuagint or LXX was around before the birth of Jesus (250 BC). When Jesus preached He very often quoted from Septuagint and by doing so He automatically approved the (accuracy) of the translation.




http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/7224/Rick/Septuagint/spindex.htm (a site you might find good reading)


Quote
Augustine went on to state his desire that Jerome would provide a fresh translation of the Old Testament into Latin from the Septuagint, since it "has no mean authority, seeing that it has obtained so wide circulation, and was the one which the apostles used, as is ... proved by looking to the text itself." In that statement, I think, it is clear that Augustine was correct. Yet Jerome was of a contrary opinion, stating "Wherever the Seventy agree with the Hebrew, the apostles took their quotations from that translation; but, where they disagree, they set down in Greek what they had found in the Hebrew. [Jerome's Apology, Book II.]" But that claim is manifestly false - unless Jerome's Hebrew text was radically different from what we possess today.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/7224/Rick/Septuagint/spexecsum.htm
I have some doubts on how I generated those stats; but if they are right.
For example Masoretic-Leveticus is 100% correct but Masoretic-Proverbs only 17%


If the errors are so easily spotted as the site appears to claim; and quite frequently new modern English translations are released I wonder why the mistakes aren't fixed.

http://books.google.nl/books?as_q=Quotations+in+the+New+Testament&num=100&btnG=Google+zoeken&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_brr=1&lr=&as_vt=&as_auth=&as_pub=&as_drrb=c&as_miny=&as_maxy=&as_isbn=
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 01:37:11 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2008, 02:41:47 PM »
Paul,

I installed the program you advised.
I'm now trying to investigate the quotes Pierac mentioned.

For example:
Who hath known the mind of the Lord? 
Is 40.13 quoted in Ro 11.34 and 1 Cor 2.16

Is it possible to view 2 or more verses side by side?



I have the clv and youngs literal module that is on that site installed.  By default it has the Autherized Version  (who authorized it i do not know LOL)


Up at the top  click the (trn)  button  you will see 4 columns appear below the default window that contains the hebrew or greek text,   right click over any column of text and you can select which version is displayed.

Not sure if you can display more than 4, but you can at least view 4 side by side.


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2008, 05:22:37 PM »
Paul,

I found that button and have 4 different versions side by side. The fourth being SVV the Dutch translation.
SVV is the only translation besides the KJV that has support for Strong. I wonder if that was also to by the author of this program (one of them is Dutch)

Anyway I found that trn button before I wrote my question.  I was meaning to ask 2 translations in the 'interlinear' window.
The reason for asking may be based on wrong understanding of  the Septuagint/Masoretic 'debate'
Basicly I would like to see the Septuagint and Masoretic side by side.
I'm aware that would often mean comparing OT and NT verses.
But if you read my second post in this thread "years of famine" 2Sa 24:13 you see that some translations state 3 and others 7 years. So some translations do have the OT and NT aligned.
But I don't know what caused that. Did they just spot the inconsitancies and changed the number. Or did they use another source text?
It's not of great importance for me because I don't read any Hebrew; but still I find it nice to see that intermediate translation step of very litteral translation.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2008, 06:15:02 PM »

Yes, about the interlinear window. 

Up at the top right of the interlinear window you will see a "+" and  "-" and "L" buttons

Click the  "+" button and you will see an additional line of scripture appear,  right click that line of text and you can change the translation.

Use the "+" and "-" to add or subtract as needed.


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2008, 05:50:23 AM »
But those settings only show the different English translations. CLV the default.
Take Gen 1:1 for example.
The words directly under the Hebrew are those of CLV
How can I for example show AV under the Hebrew?
The clearest difference between those translation of this verse is the use of God and Elohim
Of lesser importance is that I can't get SVV to show up in the interlinear window.
Works fine in the translation window.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Bible contradictions? (between translations)
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2008, 05:59:57 AM »
But those settings only show the different English translations. CLV the default.
Take Gen 1:1 for example.
The words directly under the Hebrew are those of CLV
How can I for example show AV under the Hebrew?
The clearest difference between those translation of this verse is the use of God and Elohim
Of lesser importance is that I can't get SVV to show up in the interlinear window.
Works fine in the translation window.


I am not sure that the program does that.   The translations are structured different, the english words in the window with the hebrew or greek text are just the literal word for word and doesn't adhere to english grammar, it is just word for word. 

A translation such as the CLV's sentence structure would not align with the hebrew and greek.


If that made sense.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 06:03:51 AM by Paul Hazelwood »