Believe in Me

[WhiteWings]

Controversial post ahead. Go away NOW

I no longer have article, but recently I found something interesting. (with a few thoughts of myself)
For 1st Century Jews the word "believe" was very different from what meaning we give to the word.
For them it meant "be sure" and "be like".
So:  Believe in Me ---->  Be like Me.
Jesus is love. ---> Love like Me.

^YLTMatt 22
36 `Teacher, which is the great command in the Law?'
37 And Jesus said to him, `Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thine understanding--
38 this is a first and great command;
39 and the second is like to it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself;
40 on these--the two commands--all the law and the prophets do hang.'

Father is on top of the list. Love is second. Jesus isn't mentioned.

Keeping in mind the judgement of works that basicly are all about being kind to ones neighbor could it be that Jesus never asked to believe in Him but thaugt we should equally nice to our neaighbors as He has shown.

Extrapolating the above it puts a different light on unbelievers. They can also be like Jesus (good caring persons)


Note #1: I'm not saying Jesus didn't save etc
Note #2: I'm aware the above has quite some effect on all tranlations if believe (often) need to be translated as "be like".

 

[Nathan]

I see it to say Love God, Love each other.  The New Covenant "law" is based and built on love in which the Old Covenant law hangs from.  God "is" love, if you love God, you love Jesus, if you've seen the Son, then you've seen the Father.  But it's "the form" of the cross.  Verticle relationship "love God" merging with horizontal relationship "love neighbor".

Be cross-eyed.

[Molly]

Extrapolating the above it puts a different light on unbelievers. They can also be like Jesus (good caring persons)

One problem with this--

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

--John 1

[Nathan]

I would say for one who doesn't "appear" to meet all the standards that one believes a Christian should be, and yet that same one seems to have other qualities that do appear to be "good-natured" qualities . . .for me, God is in everyone regardless as to what condition their mind is in.  That's why I've stated before, if they're breathing, if there is life in them, life itself only comes from above so if you're alive, God is in you in one form or another.

To say God can only be in those who ask Jesus into their heart is restricting what God can do.  With God ALL THINGS are possible . . .another coutner to the ET thinking people.  There are some EXTREMELY gifted people in the music business that obviously have more than just disciplined talent, but there's a God-given gift in them as well . . .but because of where they're mind is, they can abuse the gift, or use it for their personal gain . . .much like what any religious person, who claims that God is in them as well, can still take his word and turn the seed planters back into weaponry with which they turn on each other to destroy rather than to birth life . . .either way, life is evidence that God is nearby.  That's all the proof one really needs i would think.

[jabcat]

Extrapolating the above it puts a different light on unbelievers. They can also be like Jesus (good caring persons)

One problem with this--

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

--John 1

Amen Molly.  We all need Jesus, the spiritual rebirth.  "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?  Confess Jesus, believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead and you WILL BE saved".  "No man comes to the Father but by me."  Behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man hears my voice and OPENS the door, I WILL COME IN and sup with him.."

No room for disdain, no room for looking down upon, only saved by grace through faith not of ourselves.  Love the believer AND the unbeliever so hard it hurts.  People need the Lord.

[WhiteWings]

For most rebirth is required to act like Jesus. Of course nobody reaches that level so salvation is needed. (See Note#1 in de OP)

[Nathan]

I thought salvation "was" rebirth . . .or at least in the same package.

[Molly]

when he says 'follow me' or 'pick up your cross and follow me'--he's saying be like me, do what I do, follow in my footsteps, this is the way, I AM the Way.

Thus, first,  we have to know him.



11 Teach me Your way, O LORD;
         I will walk in Your truth;
         Unite my heart to fear Your name.
 12 I will praise You, O Lord my God, with all my heart,
         And I will glorify Your name forevermore.
 13 For great is Your mercy toward me,
         And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.

--Psa 86


"way"

H1870
דּרך
derek
deh'-rek
From H1869; a road (as trodden); figuratively a course of life or mode of action, often adverbially: - along, away, because of, + by, conversation, custom, [east-] ward, journey, manner, passenger, through, toward, [high-] [path-] way [-side], whither [-soever].

[thinktank]

Maybe that's why christians are little different to the people from the world, because Jesus is overdemanding and expects way to much from his people. The Isrealites could not keep the law but Jesus comes along and makes it even harder, so why bother trying to be righteous 

[WhiteWings]

Maybe that's why christians are little different to the people from the world, because Jesus is overdemanding and expects way to much from his people. The Isrealites could not keep the law but Jesus comes along and makes it even harder, so why bother trying to be righteous 

Jesus knew nobody would meet His demands. Or the demands of Father. He told that everybody would come short. But He also thaught grace would save all.

I don't think Christians are much diffrent from other religions. I'm sure there are for example many muslims who are trying very hard follow their book and also find it impossibly overdemanding.

[Molly]

I think the point is that we are perfect [complete] by virtue of our relationship with HIM.  There is really nothing else we have to do but keep our eyes on him.  Is that hard?



Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.


"perfect"
H8549
תּמים
tâmı̂ym
taw-meem'
From H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.

[thinktank]

Thank you for reminding me of his other message  . I was reading the book of Mathew and my heart sunk when I read all those demands about 2/3 pages of being more righteous than the law Jesus made, and about being more rightoeus than the scribes and pharisses in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.

[Nathan]

Yeah, first, the law is to show that we're short . . .it isn't to show that we can do it, it's to show that no matter how well equipped we think we are . . .ain't no way it's gonna happen without us "letting" Christ administer his authority in us first.

Secondly, "take up your cross" . . .what if it's not meant to be something to add to your yolk or to your "things to do" list.  It's a seaman's term.  It means to "pull up anchor".  Think about it . . . how many times have you heard the old hymns sung .. . "Where he leads me, I will follow . ..I'll go with him all the way . . ."  Only problem is, the moment we put our stakes down in someone's doctrine or perhaps our own belief system, we just anchored our ship.  I can't very well go where he leads me if I'm anchored up somewhere.  The moment I take "up" my cross I become "enabled" to follow him because now, my ship is free to be filled with the wind and move in whatever direction it chooses to go.

The idea that we're supposed to "carry" our burdens around contradicts his call for us to cast all our cares upon him.  It contradicts his call to trade up our heavy burden for his light one, our complex and exasparating yolk for his easy one . . . he didn't even carry his own cross, why would he then expect us to carry ours?

[Molly]

That word, 'cross,' has the usual and expected meaning:


"cross"
G4716
σταυρός
stauros
stow-ros'
From the base of G2476; a stake or post (as set upright), that is, (specifically) a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively exposure to death, that is, self denial; by implication the atonement of Christ: - cross.


But look at its root

G2476
ἵστημι
histēmi
his'-tay-mee
A prolonged form of a primary word στάω staō (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare G5087.


13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand [histemi].
--Eph 6

[jabcat]

"Jesus knew nobody would meet His demands. Or the demands of Father. He told that everybody would come short. But He also thaught grace would save all."         That's right WW.  That indeed is where grace comes in.



Molly, you said it starts with the relationship (spiritual rebirth).  The scripture says when a person is saved, old things are passing away, and all things are BEING made new.  The sealed (by the Holy Spirit) relationship has been established, and the process of sanctification has begun.  But only after the relationship has started by the visitation of Holy Spirit, convicting of sin and the need for Jesus, and faith being given to believe on/in Him.

MY UNDERSTANDING is, there are works (even "good" works) that are of the flesh, and then there are works of the Spirit, working through the saved believer.  Only those will stand.  IMO (and I've seen Card talk about this too) even I as a believer can struggle and "work" in my own flesh, and it really just amounts to nothing, ending in frustration.  Or I can, as you say, look to Him - keeping my mind on Him - turning things over to Him ("My yoke is easy, My burden is light") and then be a conduit for Him to work through.  I can't be good enough, or earn anything.  But since He saved me, His Spirit can now work through me, changing me, growing me, bringing more into what I need to be.  I can't do anything on my own.  I've got a long ways to go, but bottom line, again, that's what grace is for - it's unmerited favor.   

[thinktank]

But if a man ask for a coat and in the flesh you try to give but cannot and in the spirit one is not ready to give, should one give?

because one can struggle in the flesh, but yet also not be ready in the spirit.

E.g follow me, opportunity to go to Affrica arises as missionary, but one is not ready in spirit.

So if one is not ready or lead by the spirit in other words, does it mean God does not expect us to do anything, and let people starve for example or lets not follow the commandments until God leads us by the spirit

[WhiteWings]

Imo people focus so much on the graceful gift of salvation they throw the rest of the teachings overboard (because they fear works)

If believing Jesus is the way is the ONLY thing that matters then why did Jesus spend so much time on teaching love your neighbor?
He better could have focussed on the important stuff like believe in me believe in me believe in me believe in me believe in me believe in me believe in me believe in me.

Personally I believe wiorks are not done away at all. The judgement of the works  should be a very strong hint works really do matter to the Judge. Otherwise why bother judging it at all.
I think the quality of your works determins the severity/length of LoF.
Jesus saved us from death. Not from LoF. Without Jesus there would be no LoF, just death because we all come short.
That is the grace part. Being saved from death.
But by following Jesus, read be very good persons, we decrease the amount of LoF.

So salvation is a package deal. Each package has the gift of life in it. But the other stuff of in the package is a mixture of wheat and chaff.

That's how I combine various things as I understand them

[jabcat]

As I said, I believe the scriptures teach of our "works of righteousness".  How are they described?  Filthy rags.  I'm personally not as "afraid of works", as I am sick of works that are just me struggling rather than looking to Him for strength and to do it through me.  I'm not capable of "being good".

When the Spirit is working through a believer, works occur that will not be burned in that day.  I believe that's what the scriptures teach.  I AM NOT claiming I always know the difference, never get in the flesh, etc.  It's part of the day to day walking in out in shoe leather, learning from our mistakes, "growing in grace and knowledge".  I've spent many years trying to be good enough to either save myself or keep myself saved.  I'm still learning, but I like these verses -  "looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our salvation";  "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it";  "we are predestined in Him for good works".

We can't save ourselves, and after we're saved, I believe unless we look to Him to lead us and work through us, we'll continue to meet with frustration.  It's not faith and no works that I'm saying, it's faith that will bring the works of Christ as He moves through the believer.  Believe me, I believe in holy and righteous living - but I don't believe I can do that on my own, just because I want to or choose to.  I need Him to empower me - "in Him we live and exist and have our being".

Great scrip from Ephesians 1;

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5hec predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And hed made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

11In him we were also chosen,e having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory

[Nathan]

Yeah, it's connected to that ol "faith without works is dead" passage.  The works part is the evidence that faith is in action.  It's the evidence that Christ is engaged within us. 

TT, I agree with you in that you can only give what you have, and you will only be asked to give what you have available to you.   . . .and . . ."if" God is asking you to "do" something and you don't think you "can", just know that "if" God is asking, he doesn't ask unless he also equips you to do what he's asking.  (I'm beginning to feel a bit like Jack Sparrow)

For me, the works that come out of us, comes as a result of his presence "in" us.  Otherwise, it's dead works.  Anything conjured up through flesh and reasoning is also works, but it's of little effect.  One thing I've come to learn through being in ministry is to embrace the gift God has given you, but identify the fact that as keepers of the garden, we also need to know where our gifting isn't. 

One thing I tell my church is if you don't have any money to give, then don't worry about trying to give anything.  So many preach that we're to give so we'll be blessed by God ... but the pattern has always been, those people gave because THEY WERE ALREADY blessed by God.  I don't think God is out to drain those who have big hearts and small bank accounts . . . another thing we have to sorta retrain our brain is to learn how to say "no" sometimes.

[PaoloNuevo]

mo people focus so much on the graceful gift of salvation they throw the rest of the teachings overboard (because they fear works)

If believing Jesus is the way is the ONLY thing that matters then why did Jesus spend so much time on teaching love your neighbor?
He better could have focussed on the important stuff like believe in me believe in me believe in me believe in me believe in me believe in me believe in me believe in me.

Personally I believe wiorks are not done away at all. The judgement of the works  should be a very strong hint works really do matter to the Judge. Otherwise why bother judging it at all.
I think the quality of your works determins the severity/length of LoF.
Jesus saved us from death. Not from LoF. Without Jesus there would be no LoF, just death because we all come short.
That is the grace part. Being saved from death.
But by following Jesus, read be very good persons, we decrease the amount of LoF.

So salvation is a package deal. Each package has the gift of life in it. But the other stuff of in the package is a mixture of wheat and chaff.

That's how I combine various things as I understand them

The R. Catholic Church has zero teaching on salvation, righteousness through faith but emphasizes "works"... The orthodox focus on the "redemption theology" so much... I agree WW, its a package and should be integrated!

Although a lot of orthodox feel that works automatically follow once we have (and only if we) truly have faith. A faith that saves works. Not the other way around.

[Molly]

Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory

A deposit is what we have now.

"deposit"

G728
ἀῤῥαβών
arrhabōn
ar-hrab-ohn'
Of Hebrew origin [H6162]; a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest: - earnest.

So what are our works?  Our works are hope, faith, and love--but now only as an earnest.

Do we even know what 'good' is?  How do we learn good from evil?

It's just not that easy,

Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


"exercised"

G1128
γυμνάζω
gumnazō
goom-nad'-zo
From G1131; to practise naked (in the games), that is, train (figuratively): - exercise.


We are young athletes in training for another age.

[jabcat]

Yeah, it's connected to that ol "faith without works is dead" passage.  The works part is the evidence that faith is in action.  It's the evidence that Christ is engaged within us. 

TT, I agree with you in that you can only give what you have, and you will only be asked to give what you have available to you.   . . .and . . ."if" God is asking you to "do" something and you don't think you "can", just know that "if" God is asking, he doesn't ask unless he also equips you to do what he's asking.  (I'm beginning to feel a bit like Jack Sparrow)

For me, the works that come out of us, comes as a result of his presence "in" us.  Otherwise, it's dead works.  Anything conjured up through flesh and reasoning is also works, but it's of little effect.  One thing I've come to learn through being in ministry is to embrace the gift God has given you, but identify the fact that as keepers of the garden, we also need to know where our gifting isn't. 

One thing I tell my church is if you don't have any money to give, then don't worry about trying to give anything.  So many preach that we're to give so we'll be blessed by God ... but the pattern has always been, those people gave because THEY WERE ALREADY blessed by God.  I don't think God is out to drain those who have big hearts and small bank accounts . . . another thing we have to sorta retrain our brain is to learn how to say "no" sometimes.

Amen, IMO, great post.  Covers a lot of ground, things I'm working     on.  Trying to know when it's me/my carnal thoughts in action, vs. Him and His will.   

And amen, Molly!

[jabcat]

Little testimony.  Seems if I get sick enough of my own struggling, then I'm more able to just give over to Him, surrender, open myself to Him.  It's like I'm allowed to strain and struggle, get frustrated beating my head against the wall, then I remember He's there - and ABLE.  I need for Him to keep filling me, and every now and then, He brings me to that place where I briefly "get it".

"We are young athletes in training for another age."   Give Him the glory!

[micah7:9]

Yeah, first, the law is to show that we're short . . .it isn't to show that we can do it, it's to show that no matter how well equipped we think we are . . .ain't no way it's gonna happen without us "letting" Christ administer his authority in us first.

Secondly, "take up your cross" . . .what if it's not meant to be something to add to your yolk or to your "things to do" list.  It's a seaman's term.  It means to "pull up anchor".  Think about it . . . how many times have you heard the old hymns sung .. . "Where he leads me, I will follow . ..I'll go with him all the way . . ."  Only problem is, the moment we put our stakes down in someone's doctrine or perhaps our own belief system, we just anchored our ship.  I can't very well go where he leads me if I'm anchored up somewhere.  The moment I take "up" my cross I become "enabled" to follow him because now, my ship is free to be filled with the wind and move in whatever direction it chooses to go.

The idea that we're supposed to "carry" our burdens around contradicts his call for us to cast all our cares upon him.  It contradicts his call to trade up our heavy burden for his light one, our complex and exasparating yolk for his easy one . . . he didn't even carry his own cross, why would he then expect us to carry ours?

All Beautifull and Well said. This especially is  a Word for To Day..."Only problem is, the moment we put our stakes down in someone's doctrine or perhaps our own belief system, we just anchored our ship.  I can't very well go where he leads me if I'm anchored up somewhere."
Amen and Glory!

[Taffy]

the moment we put our stakes down in someone's doctrine or perhaps our own belief system, we just anchored our ship.  I can't very well go where he leads me if I'm anchored up somewhere."
Amen and Glory!