Author Topic: Are there former Christian Universalists?  (Read 2180 times)

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Offline B_T

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Are there former Christian Universalists?
« on: January 11, 2009, 02:02:11 PM »
I mean... are there people who believe in Christian Universalism for some time, but then reject this teaching and embrace eternal torment/annihilationism?

Just curious.

Offline CHB

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2009, 08:25:34 PM »

Not me, no way!!! :happy3:   :HeartThrob: 

CHB

Offline Akira Takahashi

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2009, 05:33:41 AM »
I couldn't really say.  The only Universalists I've ever known are on this board!

Offline Pierac

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2009, 06:13:37 AM »
I'm sure there are. So what does this mean to you? Would you be shocked?  :mshock:


Paul

Offline Nathan

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2009, 06:15:44 AM »
That might be a question to ask the ET boards . . .be interesting if there were any takers.

I don't know if I'd be shocked, but I would be interested in hearing what it was that turned them away.  It's a great question either way.

Offline Sarah

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2009, 02:45:35 PM »
I think their was someone on here whose username was ArcticMonster who started to believe and then decided not to. His reasoning for not believing was that he felt universalists didn't respect the bible.  :sigh:

Offline chuckt

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2009, 02:56:00 PM »
Greetings,

Since learning of UR  maybe i  have bounced around annihilationism, but NO, eternal torment in orthodox's hell fire is out of the question.

peace
chuckt
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Offline B_T

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2009, 03:15:59 PM »
Quote
I'm sure there are. So what does this mean to you? Would you be shocked?

Yeah. But I'd like to face the truth no matter what it is.

Quote
That might be a question to ask the ET boards . . .be interesting if there were any takers.

Well... I got banned from CARM after 4-5 posts. UR is a banned subject.


Andromeda_Organa

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2009, 03:31:00 PM »
Quote
I'm sure there are. So what does this mean to you? Would you be shocked?

Yeah. But I'd like to face the truth no matter what it is.

Quote
That might be a question to ask the ET boards . . .be interesting if there were any takers.

Well... I got banned from CARM after 4-5 posts. UR is a banned subject.


they seem pretty intolerant.

martincisneros

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2009, 04:35:05 AM »
I mean... are there people who believe in Christian Universalism for some time, but then reject this teaching and embrace eternal torment/annihilationism?

Just curious.
Of course, there are plenty of folks like that that never fully understood the teaching of Scripture and held to it for sentimental reasons, but then allowed too many questions to build up on them without having prayerfully gotten their questions answered Scripture by Scripture.  One of the guys that used to be around here that's since rejected the Universal Restoration was Arcticmonster2003 who probably still has a few answers or bits of nonsense on a few threads around here.  He went into the KJV only kinda belief, for the most part.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2009, 04:41:01 AM »
I think their was someone on here whose username was ArcticMonster who started to believe and then decided not to. His reasoning for not believing was that he felt universalists didn't respect the bible.  :sigh:

Unfortunately, during that time period on TM, he very well may have had a point.  I may be old-fashioned, but I still think our witness is important (I blow it from time to time, but I still think it's important).  Thankfully we now have a "respect for scripture" guideline, while still being open to a lot of different people's understandings and interpretations  :thumbsup:.  (And GOOD JOB everyone for following that SO WELL! :high5:)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 04:44:25 AM by jabcat »

martincisneros

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2009, 11:04:27 AM »
I think their was someone on here whose username was ArcticMonster who started to believe and then decided not to. His reasoning for not believing was that he felt universalists didn't respect the bible.  :sigh:
I know that "it's never as simple as that," but sorta seems to me like he was needing to be a part of a pack, and found what he was needing elsewhere with the ET crowd.  I've had my membership deleted at other forums [that were supposed to acknowledge the truth of UR while exploring other things] by the administrators of those forums because my respect for Scripture was too high.  If every universalist started toting Korans, it wouldn't change me any, either about the Bible or the truth of the Universal Restoration through Jesus Christ.  I would stand alone on the truth if necessary, since it sorta seems like I'm going to have to anyway on things I won't get into on the boards.

Offline sven

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2009, 05:35:49 PM »
i met a former christian in a forum who believed in universalism when he was a christian, he lost his christian faith but still believes in a kind of universalism. but he grew up with the teaching of ET, again you see how this teaching destroys the faith of many.

annihilation makes a lot of sense for me in a way, but no one will convince me of ET

Offline Nathan

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2009, 06:01:51 PM »
i met a former christian in a forum who believed in universalism when he was a christian, he lost his christian faith but still believes in a kind of universalism. but he grew up with the teaching of ET, again you see how this teaching destroys the faith of many.

annihilation makes a lot of sense for me in a way, but no one will convince me of ET

I guess I'm a bit baffled that one can reject ET but accept annihilation . . . is not the concept the same with both?  Did God so love the whole world that he sent his only begotten son for the salvation of 10 percent of those created by God?  Whether the 90% are in eternal torment, or destroyed all together . . .neither one seems to come close to illuminating the love of the Father for his children.

Imagine an earthly Father coming to his child and says "Honey, I've seen that you've gotten yourself so far over your head in trouble that there's no escape for you.  But I want you to know I've taken care of everything.  All you have to do is give the word and everything I did will go into effect.  If you don't give the word . . . I'll have to beat you every chance I get for the rest of your days (ET) .  .or . . .if you don't give the word, I'll make you disappear as if you never existed (annihilation). 

In either scenereo, it just doesn't line up with the character of the Father at all. 

Because there "is" such a contrast from ET/Annihilation to ALL being saved, many create defenses and go on the offense at the same time.  One attack is the thinking that sinners go to heaven with no accountability or retribution.  But think about it . . .how bad could the lake of fire be?  Well . . .look at what Christ went through in order to give us another option.  So even though I do believe in the end, we'll all be "one" and alive and well . . .this does not take away from the severity of the lake of fire experience for those not protected in the blood. 

It's just for those who pursue Christ . . .when you "seek" you "will" find what you seek.  And "when" you find Christ . .there is just no need to continue to emphasize the judgment when you've found your redemption.  People aren't drawn to you because you have a good grasp on hell . . .they are drawn to you because there is a light of joy emitting from you that gives them warmth and hope.  It's not because of what you know . . .it's because of who you've become.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2009, 06:26:14 PM »

I guess I'm a bit baffled that one can reject ET but accept annihilation . . . is not the concept the same with both? 


In fairness , I would say that ceasing to exist is more humane than being tormented forever. 






Offline Nathan

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2009, 06:33:04 PM »

I guess I'm a bit baffled that one can reject ET but accept annihilation . . . is not the concept the same with both? 


In fairness , I would say that ceasing to exist is more humane than being tormented forever. 







Oh, I don't disagree with that end of it . .but I just don't see God annihilating his own children . . . as the first Adam was just as much a son of God as was the second Adam as far as sonship goes . . .then if it were about annihilation, the first Adam would have been destroyed and God would have just started over, no?

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2009, 06:40:39 PM »

I guess I'm a bit baffled that one can reject ET but accept annihilation . . . is not the concept the same with both? 


In fairness , I would say that ceasing to exist is more humane than being tormented forever. 







Oh, I don't disagree with that end of it . .but I just don't see God annihilating his own children . . . as the first Adam was just as much a son of God as was the second Adam as far as sonship goes . . .then if it were about annihilation, the first Adam would have been destroyed and God would have just started over, no?



I agree with that and the verse that  tells is all die in adam and all live in christ (paraphrasing) is seen differently based on claims of various contextual issues that does not allow "all" to apply to everyone.   Just recently I met someone whi I discussed that with and  the main context brought was the false teaching that Enoch and Elijah did not die.  If that is used as the basis then ALL does not have to mean everyone since not everyone dies.


ScarletWren

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2009, 07:48:33 PM »
Several years ago I was on a forum where at least one man claimed to have been a universalist for years and then changed to ET.  I could hardly believe it. 

When I was in a Church of Christ, and some of the members of my S.S. class I still dearly love had a discussion about hell once.  We all (yep even me) believed there was a 'hell' but we were discussing how we would deal with the sorrow if any of our loved ones were in hell while we were in heaven.  One man claimed that we must forget this life and those we loved because otherwise there would be sorrow and tears.

I didn't say anything but it did get me thinking.  How could we forget this life?  What would the purpose have been, especially if we don't remember any of it.  Why wouldn't God just make us unable to sin in the first place if we don't know how we got to be there in the first place?

And it is true.  If one of my parents or children or even a good friend were suffereing for eternity, or even annihilated, how could my happiness be complete?  God should be our first love, I agree, but if I could have love and concern for someone, imperfect as I am, how could He zap them out of existence or torment them endlessly and be happy, and not know we would never be truly happy while anyone (yeah even Hitler doesn't deserve ENDLESS torment for finite atrocities) writhes in pain or will never enjoy a moment again?  I could never go back to believing in ET or even annihilation

Offline Doc

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2009, 09:37:36 PM »
ScarletWren;

I have a sneaking suspicion that those who do ultimately reject UR, never had an adequate grasp of it to begin with. Plus, it's always harder to "swim against the current"... something that is a definite obstacle (at this point in time) for accepting UR.

But yeah, I personally can't imagine ever going back to my old beliefs.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline Nathan

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2009, 01:31:25 AM »
ScarletWren;

I have a sneaking suspicion that those who do ultimately reject UR, never had an adequate grasp of it to begin with. Plus, it's always harder to "swim against the current"... something that is a definite obstacle (at this point in time) for accepting UR.

But yeah, I personally can't imagine ever going back to my old beliefs.

Intersting you use that for your analogy  . ..  it's been my quest to return to the headwaters of the one river flowing out of the original garden . . .return to "my" origin before the curse . .and in order to do that, I must turn around in my river and swim back "upstream" to where it's source flows from.  Going back to lay eggs and reproduce . .die in the flesh so that "his" generation can manifest.

Offline Doc

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2009, 02:48:48 AM »
ScarletWren;

I have a sneaking suspicion that those who do ultimately reject UR, never had an adequate grasp of it to begin with. Plus, it's always harder to "swim against the current"... something that is a definite obstacle (at this point in time) for accepting UR.

But yeah, I personally can't imagine ever going back to my old beliefs.

Intersting you use that for your analogy  . ..  it's been my quest to return to the headwaters of the one river flowing out of the original garden . . .return to "my" origin before the curse . .and in order to do that, I must turn around in my river and swim back "upstream" to where it's source flows from.  Going back to lay eggs and reproduce . .die in the flesh so that "his" generation can manifest.

 :happygrin:  I love this board...

God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline willieH

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2009, 03:22:37 AM »
willieH: Hi brother B_T! :hithere:

I mean... are there people who believe in Christian Universalism for some time, but then reject this teaching and embrace eternal torment/annihilationism?

Just curious.

Actually we recently had a guy here who went @ first by DUSTPROPHET, then by DUSTY, and eventually by PEACETROLL... which stated that he was a "universalist" for twenty years or so, and then changed his mind...

And now believes there are muliple human races, and that NOT all men originate IN ADAM.   :crywipe:





PeacE...

...willieH   :love1:

ScarletWren

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2009, 06:56:57 AM »
We swim against the tide for sure.  And I've never liked going against the crowd, being 'different', but I just can't do it that way anymore.

Offline rosered

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2009, 02:23:37 PM »

 
  Hi all ,
  It  is God who  establishes  the boundaries   
 
  that no man can cross   
 
      for me anyways
 
 
 I have always  hated the Us and Them mentality
 
  But these things must be
 
 
  Jesus is the Prince of Peace
 
  Yet He come to send fire on the earth  and a Sword  with Division
 
     Jesus  is also a stumbling block and Rock of Offense

   
    and  at some  point  cannot get passed that  even I
 
      Yes  even I and used to look at everyone  else and think they had
   
   been offended by the Word and not me mentality lol
  now I find it  not so strange   just how the Lord Jesus Christ
 
  turns us around  to where we see   the Center is  always Him   
 
  and we will not  get through  Him , by Him nor around Him
 
  until we realize   that it is By Him  revealing Himself to us

 we can see anything at all ,  pertaining to His  will/ desire /testament 

   and kingdom
 
 
  we do not struggle  against others  near as much as we think we do ,
 
  it was always Him   that we cannot   surpass   or move 
   
 or by pass  till we see Him face to face  and that  is  what always
 
 changes us and our course Till we are IN HIM and so well Hid in Him
 

 
  and  am not near as wise  as I thought I was and being wrong /decieved

   which  is a good thing being humbled  by  Him and finally 


    being teachable  is  one of the good gifts
 
  from above  the Father of Lights / Knowledge
 
  is doing  for His  own  children (born of Spirit and Truth/thyWord )
 and what ever place they are at 
 
  God knows and God is good that way
 
 to continue  to bear them up  into Himself
 
  we Serve   and have an Awesome God /Father who loves us very much
 
  :HeartThrob:
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline Nathan

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Re: Are there former Christian Universalists?
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2009, 03:37:02 PM »
We swim against the tide for sure.  And I've never liked going against the crowd, being 'different', but I just can't do it that way anymore.

I have found that when I "start" going against the crowd in one area, that leads into many other subjects where I'm against the crowd as well.  But for me, the parable of four soils comes into play here . . .the one where the seed falls on the hardened path and is quickly snatched up by birds . . .the hardened path is made by those who tread on this same ground . . .over and over . .and many of them have traveled it . . .sounds like traditions of men to me.