Author Topic: Law nailed to the cross?  (Read 2314 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2011, 03:35:56 PM »
Quote from: ww
To be honest I don't even know one Melchizedek law.
He's already given them to you.

35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.  [Mat 22]
Sounds good. I basicly means be friends with everyone and help everyone who needs help.
But how does that for example cover: You shall worship no other gods?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2011, 03:38:20 PM »
Quote from: ww
To be honest I don't even know one Melchizedek law.
He's already given them to you.

35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.  [Mat 22]
Sounds good. I basicly means be friends with everyone and help everyone who needs help.
But how does that for example cover: You shall worship no other gods?
If you love God with all your mind, all your heart, and all your soul, there is no room for other gods.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2011, 03:41:13 PM »
Quote from: ww
Same for you. Should you debate God about Sabbath or just obey?

You know, I have debated him about it.  Is this really what you want me to do?  Sunday was always holy to me, but now must I change this to Saturday?

He always brings me back to the same place.  I have entered into his Sabbath which is Christ.
I want nothing Molly. If you like to make wednesday holy it's fine with me.

Other people perhaps want to strictly follow the day of rest. For those people it's good to know the correct day.
OTOH a forced day of rest means I can't do certain things. That means I bound by a law. And that was done away with to a great extend.
But ther are obvious exeptions.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2011, 03:43:54 PM »
Quote from: ww
To be honest I don't even know one Melchizedek law.
He's already given them to you.

35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.  [Mat 22]
Sounds good. I basicly means be friends with everyone and help everyone who needs help.
But how does that for example cover: You shall worship no other gods?
If you love God with all your mind, all your heart, and all your soul, there is no room for other gods.
What about gay relationships. Not my thing but they also can love eachother.
You know some people even love their bicycle and take it with them to bed? (true story) :laughing7:
Muslims really love allah.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2011, 03:52:19 PM »
Quote from: ww
To be honest I don't even know one Melchizedek law.
He's already given them to you.

35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.  [Mat 22]
Sounds good. I basicly means be friends with everyone and help everyone who needs help.
But how does that for example cover: You shall worship no other gods?
If you love God with all your mind, all your heart, and all your soul, there is no room for other gods.
What about gay relationships. Not my thing but they also can love eachother.
You know some people even love their bicycle and take it with them to bed? (true story) :laughing7:
Muslims really love allah.
I'm not sure what you mean.

The command is to love YHWH, not Allah, your bicycle, or your gay lover.  :dontknow:

Offline Molly

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2011, 03:55:44 PM »
Quote from: ww
Same for you. Should you debate God about Sabbath or just obey?

You know, I have debated him about it.  Is this really what you want me to do?  Sunday was always holy to me, but now must I change this to Saturday?

He always brings me back to the same place.  I have entered into his Sabbath which is Christ.
I want nothing Molly. If you like to make wednesday holy it's fine with me.

Other people perhaps want to strictly follow the day of rest. For those people it's good to know the correct day.
OTOH a forced day of rest means I can't do certain things. That means I bound by a law. And that was done away with to a great extend.
But ther are obvious exeptions.
I think the point is to enter into his rest, which is the promised land.  That is his Sabbath.


Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. [Mat 11:28

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2011, 04:20:09 PM »
Quote from: ww
To be honest I don't even know one Melchizedek law.
He's already given them to you.

35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.  [Mat 22]
Sounds good. I basicly means be friends with everyone and help everyone who needs help.
But how does that for example cover: You shall worship no other gods?
If you love God with all your mind, all your heart, and all your soul, there is no room for other gods.
What about gay relationships. Not my thing but they also can love eachother.
You know some people even love their bicycle and take it with them to bed? (true story) :laughing7:
Muslims really love allah.
I'm not sure what you mean.

The command is to love YHWH, not Allah, your bicycle, or your gay lover.  :dontknow:
The verses you quoted gave a few examples of who to love (God, neighbour). They didn't exclude allah. That exclusion is made in the 10 Commandments. So that means our list is at least 10 laws long. Jesus said love are the 2 laws all other laws are hung on. That means there are other laws too.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2011, 01:56:24 PM »
It looks like every "law" the Jews didn't have when they left Egypt is "done away".
And not even that.  The majority of the Jewish laws are Halachkic. That's what Jesus called "traditions of the elders"


(Matthew 15:1 [ACV])
Then scholars and Pharisees from Jerusalem come to Jesus, saying,
(Matthew 15:2 [ACV])
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.

Most of the Jewish laws regarding not eating dairy products with meat, wearing long
sideburns, wearing the kippas, and wigs for women, fall in the category of "traditions" of men,
and are not binding laws of God! In the majority of cases, I would say that most "halachkic"
rules fall into that category and should be characterized as nothing more than the "traditions of
the elders" (Matt.15:1-14; Mark 7:1-13), which Jesus Christ condemned in very outspoken terms.

(the kippa tradition was added in the middle ages)

The opposite of that are the "customs of the fathers". That are the none manmade laws.


1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2011, 02:13:48 PM »
"The Pharisees and sages sit upon the seat of Moses. Therefore
all that he says to you, diligently do, but according to their reforms
(takanot ,Ibe,) and their precedents (ma'asim nhagn) do not do,
because they talk but they do not do."

(Matthew 23:2 [ACV])
The scholars and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat.

(Matthew 23:3 [ACV])
All things therefore, however many they may tell you to observe, observe and do, but do not ye according to their works, for they say, and do not.

They is a translation error (in the Greek copies). "they" should be "he" (Moses)
Simply put: Do as Moses instructed and ignore everything else.
That's every writting outside of the Torah.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2011, 02:22:56 PM »
At Mount Sinai, Paul tells us in Galatians, concerning the law, "It was ADDED because
of TRANSGRESSIONS [i.e., breaking of the laws of God], till the seed should come to whom
the promise was made [Christ]" (Gal.3:19). This Law which was "added" was NOT the "Old
Covenant"! Let's not be confused. The Covenant and the Law are two different things! The
Covenant was an AGREEMENT between Israel and God. The Laws were part of that
agreement; they were, in effect, the TERMS of that Covenant. All of those spiritual, moral,
ethical, and civil LAWS did not begin with Moses at Mount Sinai, but went back to
CREATION! The Sabbath law, for example, goes back to Creation (Gen.2:1-3). God reminded
Israel of which day was the Sabbath weeks before Israel ever got to Mount Sinai (Exodus 16).
God gave them the Passover commandments (Exodus 12:14-16) fifty days before the Sinai
covenant!
What, then, was really "new" -- or "added" -- to the system of Laws which God had
already put in force, prior to Mount Sinai? Why, the answer should be obvious. At Mount Sinai
the physical tabernacle, Levitical priesthood, prescribed sacrifices and rituals, were added --
what we generally call the RITUALISTIC LAW, or the law related to the Levitical Priesthood!
These were
the "meats [meal offerings[ and drinks [drink offerings], and divers washings, and carnal
ordinances [marginal reference, "rites, or ceremonies"], imposed on them until the time of
reformation" (Heb.9:10). The Greek word for "ordinances" here is dikaioma which means "what
has been established and ordained by law, an ordinance," "a judicial sentence," "a righteous act
or deed," and in this verse clearly refers to those things related to the Levitical priesthood.
This was a whole body of legislation which was ADDED at Mount Sinai! These rituals
pointed to Christ, and to heavenly objects, of which they were a type or shadow. These things
are not obligatory for Christians today!

http://www.livingcog.com/lawvslaw5.htm

So Jesus didn't do away any law. He chanced the convenant and pointed out the tradition never came from God, an in many cases opposed God's law and/or intentions.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2011, 04:29:42 PM »
Quote
Simply put: Do as Moses instructed and ignore everything else.
That's every writting outside of the Torah.


Quote
Why, the answer should be obvious. At Mount Sinai
the physical tabernacle, Levitical priesthood, prescribed sacrifices and rituals, were added --
what we generally call the RITUALISTIC LAW, or the law related to the Levitical Priesthood!
These were...

As we have seen in our studies here, everything about the temple [including the priests] points to Christ and our relationship with him.  God says to Moses, build it according to my specifications.

Over time, what happened?  Did the ritual become more important than the meaning behind it?  By the time of Jesus, the priests had become  'whitewashed tombs.'  Beautiful on the outside and full of dead man's bones on the inside.

They are dead inside--no compassion, no empathy, no love, no life, no human quality left--only death.

Ritual has devolved into a dead act, and a living connection with the God of our fathers into satanism.  Satanism is all about ritual, and the more death [life killing laws], the better.

If we were truly in touch with our humanity in Christ, there would be no need for law because there is no law against the fruit of the Spirit, and [divine] love breaks no laws--rather, it fulfills the law.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 04:35:11 PM by Molly »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2011, 07:28:41 PM »
Over time, what happened?  Did the ritual become more important than the meaning behind it?
I think that's not what happend. The laws were taken to the extremes.
I see it similar to: A country needs police. It's good that the police patrols the streets to prevent crime. Most will agree with that. (that was God's law). But things go wrong when it become a police state. Streets crowded with police. Camera's everywhere. (Pharisees)
When Jesus ate from the field on Sabbath the Pharisees accused Him of harvesting grain. The Pharisees were right that harvesting grain on Sabbath is forbidden. The question is what is harvesting 100 truckloads? 10? 1? A bucket? A handfull? Just enough to feed a hungry person?
Imo the main problem Jesus had with the Pharisees wasn't that they tried to keep the law. Maybe not even if they wrote some example what the law commanded in certain situations. It was that the balance of things was completly lost.

Man is not for the Sabbath but Sabbath is for man.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline thinktank

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Re: Law nailed to the cross?
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2011, 09:58:22 PM »
Nice wings. YOu know I was reading Leviticus yesterday, believe it or nor that is a bible book  :laughing7:

But I was reading the laws and I saw, anyone who is a wizard stone him.

It occured to me that if I was a wizard in those days, I might plee for mercy and receive it. But if I continually was practicing wizadry and bringing evil upon the populace, the lw would require death, for the ake of the people.

The wages of sin is death. The law made a rule of that.

In ancient days, including medieval times, the king would often ruthlesly apply the law.

Today there are many ruthless laws in place by countries, often it is only grace and the application of that law that saves the person from death etc.