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Offline WhiteWings

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666 pebbles
« on: October 01, 2012, 10:58:13 AM »
(Rev 13:18) Here is wisdom: He who has understanding, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is a number of a man. And its number is 666

We all know the calculations that 'prove' Nero, Hitler, Elvis or Obama is the beast of Revelation.
Could there be another interpretation of the verse? The beast stands before a jury and received 666 black stones. Meaning the number 666 is the number of jury members?

While the stones were used for regular counting they had also had a prominent place in the ancient legal system. Also in the Bible. The white stone Jesus gives is a voting stone. When the high priest went in the Holies of Holies he held a bag with 1 black and 1 white voting stone. (Drawing lots)
So is the verse about "counting stones" or "voting stones"?

Bit of a stretch but ignoring the symbology of the stones.... :dontknow:

G5585
ψηφίζω
psēphizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to count with pebbles, to compute, calculate, reckon
2) to give one's vote by casting a pebble into the urn
3) to decide by voting
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G5586
Citing in TDNT: 9:604, 1341
G5586
ψῆφος
psēphos
Thayer Definition:
1) a small worn smooth stone, a pebble
1a) in the ancient courts of justice the accused were condemned by black pebbles and the acquitted by white
2) a vote (on account of the use of pebbles in voting)
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from the same as G5584
Citing in TDNT: 9:604, 1341
psḗphos/ψήφος [pebble, vote],
psēphízō/ψηφίζω [to calculate, reckon],
sympsēphízō/συμψηφίζω [to reckon],
(katapsēphízomai/καταψηφίζομαι [to resolve, condemn]),
synkatapsēphízomai/συγκαταψηφίζομαι [to be chosen]

A. Normal Greek Usage.
1. psḗphos. This word means "little stone," "pebble," "dressed stone," or "stone" used in mosaics or board games. The plural, for "stones" used in counting, can denote "account." Other uses for small stones are in astrology, soothsaying, and especially voting. The latter use leads to the meaning "vote" or "voice," then "opinion," and in the legal sphere "voting" and "verdict."
2. psēphízō, sympsēphízō, (katapsēphízomai ), synkatapsēphízomai.
a. psēphízō means "to count" or "calculate" with stones, in a transferred sense "to reach a verdict," and middle "to vote with a stone," "to vote," "to resolve."
b. sympsēphízō, an uncommon word, means "to reckon up," "to agree on."
c. katapsēphízomai means "to pronounce guilty" or "to resolve," middle "to be condemned."
B. The LXX and Hellenistic Judaism.
1. The LXX.
a. We find psḗphos in Lam. 3:16 for "little stone" and in Ex. 4:25 for the sharp stone used for cutting the foreskin. The plural in Sir. 18:10 is used for little stones in the sand. The sense of "voting stone" occurs in 4 Macc. 15:26.
b. psēphízō is a variant in 1 Kgs. 3:8; 8:5 for "counting." sympsēphízō occurs in Jer. 49:20 Cod. AQ for "counting" (sheep).
2. Josephus.
a. Josephus uses psḗphos for "resolve" or "vote."
b. psēphízomai in Josephus means "to resolve" or "to reckon."
c. katapsēphízomai has the meaning "to condemn."
3. Philo.
a. Philo uses psḗphos for "pronouncement" or "verdict." Pronouncements may be just and legal or unjust and illegal.
b. psēphízomai has in Philo the sense "to decree" or "to resolve."
c. katapsēohízomai means "to condemn."
C. The NT and Apostolic Fathers.
1. Paul in Acts 26:10 says that he gave his "voice" against believers, i.e., condemned them.
2. The white stone of Rev. 2:17 may have been an amulet. It serves to ward off evil forces. The color denotes its new and distinctive character or category.
3. In Lk. 14:28 psēphízō means "to reckon." As the builder should count the cost before starting, so disciples should consider their resources. They must also consider the cost of the required renunciation. "Reckon" is also the meaning of sympsēphízō in Acts 19:19 when those who had burned their books of magic valued them and found they came to a very high sum.
4. The number of the beast is counted in Rev. 13:18. Numerical value is ascribed to the letters, and the total is 666. One interpretation of this number is that it is the sum of the numbers 1 to 36, and that 36 is the sum of the numbers 1 to 8. In Gnosticism the number 8, the ogdoad, is identical to sophía, so that Gnostic wisdom might be the enemy. Others arrive at the emperor Domitian.
5. katapsēphízomai in Acts 1:26 seems to indicate that Matthias is officially given a place with the eleven.
6. sympsēphízō means "to reckon," "to add up," "to calculate" in Hermas Visions 3.1.4.
[G. Braumann, IX, 604-07]

   
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2012, 05:26:32 PM »
my pov   it is the man of sins rulership/dominion.[666 prince of this world]

....your days have come to an end...you have

  been judged/weighed in the balance and found wanting.........men mene tekel and parsen

   now the serpent was the most subtil of any beast of the field

   you have imperfect judgement of men..and you have perfection and lights..the judgement of God...

    ...the spirits of just men made perfect...

   we have all received a black stone from Adam/sin entered...and a white stone from Jesus....

  just as we have bore the corrupt image..we shall bear the image of the incorrupt[white stone]

   this is what I perceive ww...I'm sure there are amany other things that can be added.

  1 Cor 4;3   I care very little if I am judged by you or by any other human court; indeed,I do not even judge myself

  my conscience is clear,but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me

  therefore judge nothing before the appointed time;wait til the Lord comes.

  He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness[urim and thummim] and will expose the motives of men's hearts

  at that time each will receive his praise from God

   Now my brothers..I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for YOUR benefit..so that you may

  learn from us the meaning of the saying 'DO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN...THEN YOU WILL NOT

  TAKE PRIDE IN ONE MAN OVER AGAINST THE OTHER..[fallen in Adam/raised in Christ each of us]..

   FOR WHO MAKES YOU DIFFERENT FROM ANYONE ELSE? [free gift given=raised up/all men will be]

WHAT DO YOU HAVE THAT YOU DIDNOT RECEIVE? again free gift to all men by grace]

  AND IF YOU DID RECEIVE IT...WHY DO YOU BOAST AS THOUGH YOU DIDN'T[IF HE HAS LIGHTENED YOU

 VAUNT NOT YOURSELF AGAINST THOSE IN DARKNESS=GIVE FREELY OF WHAT YOU FREELY REC'D]

  think not that you 'earned' it somehow..know His grace did lighten you

   God has judged all in fallen Adam as worthy of His love/mercy/grace...and will see to it..each in his order

   Jesus said..'your righteousness MUST exceed that of the Pharisees"...they judge the law but do not do

  what they say"...Love GOD[the love of God is not in you or you would love me] and love your brother as yourself

  or rejoice that sinful men will receive the free gift of grace and eternal life

Offline CHB

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2012, 06:41:22 PM »
This may not mean anything but 6 is the number of man and this beast (6) caused "the earth and them that dwell therein to WORSHIP THE FIRST BEAST" another 6.

This beast also causes a image to be made "of the beast that had a wound and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak" another 6.

This beast has power over two more 6's/men, which makes him a 666. You could say they are united as one and the same.  I just thought of this after reading your post and (Rev. 13:11-18).

CHB

 

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2012, 06:52:56 PM »
I'm aware of that C.
There are many such views, articles and books.

It's just that today for the first time I noticed that what we know as counting is a bit like "pebbling" in Greek.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline dajomaco

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2012, 08:11:19 PM »
I really liked the whole white stone black stone Idea.

I can see my flesh agreeing with the evidence that Satan
gives, for his reason of throwing in the black stone,
when my named is called before the judgment seat

Then on the other side my spirit sees Jesus throwing in the white
stone and agrees with the evidence he presents.

My flesh looks one way my spirit the other
my soul is in the middle.

My flesh convinces my soul with something it calls reality.
My spirit convinces my soul with something it calls faith.

My soul used to decide day by day then hour by hour.

Lately the spirit through faith has been convincing my soul.

My flesh has been weakened and has less to say now that I don't hang out with
religious people.

My spirit likes this place My flesh doesn't mind it either it tells us it's
smart and knows how to type with out any training.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2012, 12:43:05 AM »
By both accounts(heh heh) of Strong and Thayer I will vote for "counting." (heh heh) and this, in my humble opinion, is were the imagination of the human goes awry in study, "Bit of a stretch but ignoring the symbology of the stones...." 

Ecc 3:18  I said in my heart concerning the matter of the sons of man that God might cleanse them, so as to see that they themselves are beasts.

Can we see that?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2012, 05:24:17 AM »
one more thing.......love does NOT KEEP COUNT of a wrong

Offline micah7:9

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2012, 05:40:37 AM »
one more thing.......love does NOT KEEP COUNT of a wrong

Now that I believe is a truth.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2012, 05:55:13 AM »
 :gimmefive:

Offline micah7:9

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2012, 06:25:26 AM »
Warm and Fuzzy...and that don't happen often. :happy3:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2012, 08:19:32 AM »
By both accounts(heh heh) of Strong and Thayer I will vote for "counting." (heh heh) and this, in my humble opinion, is were the imagination of the human goes awry in study, "Bit of a stretch but ignoring the symbology of the stones...." 
Well, Voting is very much part of Stong/Thayer. Stones/lots are used throught the Bible. So I can just as well say it's your imagination it's just about counting.

Quote
Ecc 3:18  I said in my heart concerning the matter of the sons of man that God might cleanse them, so as to see that they themselves are beasts.

Can we see that?
Relevance?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2012, 05:32:54 PM »
Your looking for the beast.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2012, 06:28:37 PM »
No I'm not looking for the beast but for the ones who count.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2012, 09:01:08 PM »
No I'm not looking for the beast but for the ones who count.

OK
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline dajomaco

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2012, 11:02:18 PM »
1234567891011121314151617181920212223242526272829303132333435363738.39..40........

Offline micah7:9

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2012, 02:20:43 AM »
1234567891011121314151617181920212223242526272829303132333435363738.39..40........

Can you do that again?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2012, 08:23:09 AM »
While the stones were used for regular counting they had also had a prominent place in the ancient legal system. Also in the Bible. The white stone Jesus gives is a voting stone. When the high priest went in the Holies of Holies he held a bag with 1 black and 1 white voting stone. (Drawing lots)
So is the verse about "counting stones" or "voting stones"?

Bit of a stretch but ignoring the symbology of the stones....

I have thought the White Stone with a new name in it was an immortal and incorruptible dove's egg.

"To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it]." (Rv 217, KJV)
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2012, 08:41:44 AM »
yeah. and the opposite are the black stones.
Stones were used in (secular) court, in the Temple, and several other Scriptures for voting and declaring God's will.
Also for counting. Bit like an abacus I assume.
Both (counting, voting) use the same Greek word.

So my question was and still is: Is the number of the beast only about counting/calculating or also about voting?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2012, 05:23:07 PM »
  voting/judging....you have judgements of men/sinful ..and the TRUE JUDGEMENTS OF GOD

   Jesus told His disciples not to judge..but to wait for the proper time...which to me would be

  to wait for God's judgements in the earth as announced by the trumpet revelations .

  many years ago I awken to angelic conversations about evil tribunals..but was not granted

  to take this message out/consciousness.

  now the balck horse with the scales rides in judgement....wheat barley oil and wine are not harmed

  it has to do with the famine of God's true words in the earth. the preservation of truth

  you have the bronze/judgement in 'image' and you have the bronze angel's words of God's judgement

  and come to explain the vision in Daniel with bronze arms and legs[God striding in the earth in Judgements

  and 'works of His hands/judgement[Christ sacrifice] Great war

   Rev 2;18..feet like burnished bronze...Christ working the judgements of God in the earth/heel bruised

  mind of satan crushed

  the living creature in Ezekiel 1  when the heavens were opened.....their feet were like those of a calf

  and gleamed like burished bronze...these throne attendants [Rev 4;7]  work the judgements of God in the earth

    these are tyhe living creatures[with the spirit of life of God in them  working His judgements]

  not the judgements of the lifeless idol/image..due to be struck with a stone not cut out by6 human hands

   Rev 6 shows the four horsemen riding..white horse=conqueror/Christ..red horse=power to take peace from the

 earth[think not I come to bring peace but to cause division]..the black= God's judgements in earth...

   all of this work and riding throughout the earth has to do with God bringing down the image and

  working His judgements in the earth....He is breaking up the works of the devil in this spiritual warfare.

   the pale horse rider..death followed by Hades.......power to kill by sword famine and plague

   O'DEATH I SHALL BE THY PLAGUES.....I will come and war with you with the sword of my mouth

  get out of her my people,lest ye receive of her plagues

   Zechariah 1  the Man among the myrtle trees... and red horses brown and white....these are sent throughout

  the earth and found peace/rest/ while Jerusalem lay devastated/scatter4ed

....I AM VERY JEALOUS FOR JERUSALEM AND ZION

  BUT I AM VERY ANGRY WITH THE NATIONS

   the four craftsmen/horses with riders come to scatter the four horns[powers] that scattered Judah,Isreal

  and Jerusalem.....ch 3  clean garments..gold lampstand two olive trees...iniquity of the people carried off

  to Babylon...four chariots[again 4 colour horses]=4 spirits of heaven=  before I realized it, my desire

  SET ME AMONG THE ROYAL CHARIOTS OF MY PEOPLE  sos 6;12

   beastly image[see Nebuchaddnezer image seven times passing as beast..come to senses and glorify God

   tribune  in ancient Rome any of several magistrates b." ANY OF THE SIX OFFICERS  WHO ROTATED

  A COMMAND OVER A LEGION FOR A YEAR

   Tribunal= a seat or bench..any seat of judgement= see man of lawlessness/abomination  'sits in temple

  of God and shows himself that he is 'God"


 

Offline micah7:9

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2012, 05:30:37 PM »
No I'm not looking for the beast but for the ones who count.


I'm interested where I can find out about the "casting of lots" that relate to "calculating" the number of the beast. Direction
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2012, 05:31:03 PM »
  see......Tribunal Apostolicum Ritae Romanae........highest apellate tribunal of Roman

  Catholic Church....also see Inquisition

Offline micah7:9

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2012, 05:43:36 PM »
Oh, thanks, don't look like a path I want to wander down.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2012, 06:02:15 PM »
 land is parceled out to those who forsake the covenant...the evil contrast to receiving our lot/inheritance

  of promises of God[go thy way Daniel..you will rise and receive your lot].

   Daniel speaks of the princes of this world[greece and Persia] fighting against Gabriel and preventing him

  until Michael come....

   God gives His rewards...and satan his

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2012, 07:35:30 PM »
No I'm not looking for the beast but for the ones who count.


I'm interested where I can find out about the "casting of lots" that relate to "calculating" the number of the beast. Direction
See my first post Micah.
It's mainly quotes from Strong/Thayer lexicons and similar.

http://concordances.org/greek/5586.htm
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: 666 pebbles
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2012, 08:08:09 PM »
 well...they casted lots  to divide up His clothes...to me...

   it's the parting of Him...the 'word of God' come in flesh....some of the insults they heaped

  was 'accusing him of tearing down the temple to raise it again'  that is the 'sign' spoken against...

  'this one is to cause the falling and rising of many in Isreal"  His temple was a temple of God's spirit

  and word in truth...people will kill truth if it means it shows their 'fall[ing] away. the unjust servants

  do not desire to lose their 'high" positions