Author Topic: Are babies and retarded people saved by default?  (Read 2244 times)

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Offline BirdSong

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Re: Are babies and retarted people saved by default?
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2013, 08:25:11 PM »
"saved by default"


Since every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father;  I  believe those mentioned in the OP will have no need of any corrective discipline as will many others, but will "simply" be given the wherewithall to recognize, accept, and proclaim Jesus as Savior.  They'll be in an immortal body with the mind of Christ.  I believe it will be instant tranformation/"conversion" for them.   :2c:

Makes me wonder if this wasn't what Jesus was pointing out when he spoke about the parable of the labourers that was hired for a penny? Some worked longer that others but all received the same pay (Matt. chapter 20).

CHB
That is to say the reward at the end is the same but think how much more the ones who worked longer for the same reward will appreciate it all the more.

Well, if the Prodigal Son is any indication, I'm not so sure.  :laughing7:

Offline mplsfitter539

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Re: Are babies and retarded people saved by default?
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2013, 08:31:42 PM »
Well, if the Prodigal Son is any indication, I'm not so sure.I can except that you are  not sure. I appreciate your honesty.

Offline jbertonbounds

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Re: Are babies and retarded people saved by default?
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2013, 06:24:30 PM »
The prodigal did not received the same reward in the end.  He received the same grace and love.  He had already received his inheritance and squandered it.  The father said to the jealous, "Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours." [Luke 15.31, ESV]  The jealous brother was to receive delayed reward for his faithfulness, but still had a lot to learn about his father's love; but the prodigal had already received instant gratification, and now grace.  The parallel to life and salvation is remarkable.

Offline jbertonbounds

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Re: Are babies and retarded people saved by default?
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2013, 06:32:12 PM »
The story of the prodigal (as well as the story of Jonah) makes me think of all the ET believers who actually seem disappointed when I tell them there is no such thing as hell.  Many are looking forward to seeing the wicked forever tormented in real flames.  When I speak to them they are often captivated by the truth they are hearing, but they don't really see it, unless God reveals it to them - and that can only happen after they open their minds and hearts to God's teaching.

Offline BirdSong

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Re: Are babies and retarded people saved by default?
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2013, 11:24:58 PM »

Well, if the Prodigal Son is any indication, I'm not so sure.  :laughing7:


I can except that you are  not sure. I appreciate your honesty.


Huh? I was injecting a little humor.  :doh:


The prodigal did not received the same reward in the end. 


What do you mean?

  • Luke 15:23 "And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry."

The "fatted calf" represented the crème de la crème as far as rewards.

  • Luke 15:32 "For this SON OF MINE was dead and is alive AGAIN; he was lost and is found."

The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. But he answered his father, 'Hey! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders.
Yet you never gave me even a young goat, so I could celebrate with my friends. However, when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fatted calf - the best of the best that you have - for him!'


'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive AGAIN; he was lost and is found.'



I believe we are ALL the Prodigal Son, AND we are ALL the Older Brother, at times in our lives. There have been times in my life where I said; "Why as a believer do I have to struggle so much, and those who don't care about you seem to 'live the dream' and always seem happy. That doesn't seem fair!"

I was the older brother at that point in my life. I was also the Prodigal Son - I was dead - and became alive AGAIN.

In the END, we are ALL reconciled to God, and God will be ALL IN ALL (1 Corinthians 15:28). If everyone receives God's 'ALL' - then the reward is THE SAME for ALL in the end.

The only difference is TIMING. Some will receive their reward SOONER than others (1 Corinthians 15:23), and will be instruments of God (kings and priests) who assist in gathering in the rest of the harvest (Revelation 20:4-6) - but the reward in THE END is the same for ALL - it is God's ALL - as He is ALL IN ALL.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 11:41:09 PM by BirdSong »

Offline jbertonbounds

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Re: Are babies and retarded people saved by default?
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2013, 12:05:35 AM »
I said the PRODIGAL (IN THE STORY) did not received to same reward IN THE END (OF THE STORY).  At the end he received forgiveness and love, not another portion of the remainder of his father's estate.  He had already received his part of the inheritance and wasted it.  With God, a reward is repayment for doing good.  Salvation is not based on merit.  Consider the parable where the master gave different servants different amounts of money to keep [Mat 25].  They all invested and increased the money with which they were intrusted, except the one.  He produced no increase.  The master ordered that what he had be taken away and given to the one who had the most.  Mat 25.29 says, "For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away."  I do not believe the rewards are the same for all.  The salvation is.  Jer 32.19 says, "Lord of hosts, great in counsel and mighty in deed, whose eyes are open to all the ways of the children of man, rewarding each one according to his ways and according to the fruit of his deeds."  1 Cor 3:15 says, "If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."  1 Tim 4:10 says, "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, especially of those who believe."  Those who believe will be especially rewarded!

You said:
"    Luke 15:23 "And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry."
The "fatted calf" represented the crème de la crème as far as rewards.
    Luke 15:32 "For this SON OF MINE was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found."
The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. But he answered his father, 'Hey! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders.
Yet you never gave me even a young goat, so I could celebrate with my friends. However, when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fatted calf - the best of the best that you have - for him!'
'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.'  "


This was a celebration, not a rewards banquet.  The father was not rewarding his son for doing wrong, he was celebrating his son's return.

The scriptures I quoted above seem to me to be suggesting degrees of reward.  I believe we all agree around here that salvation is for ALL - I would never debate that.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 04:38:05 PM by jbertonbounds »

Offline BirdSong

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Re: Are babies and retarded people saved by default?
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2013, 01:20:24 AM »
I said the PRODIGAL (IN THE STORY) did not received to same reward IN THE END (OF THE STORY).  At the end he received forgiveness and love, not another portion of the remainder of his father's estate.  He had already received his part of the inheritance and wasted it.  With God, a reward is repayment for doing good.  Salvation is not based on merit.  Consider the parable where the master gave different servants different amounts of money to keep [Mat 25].  They all invested and increased the money with which they were intrusted, except the one.  He produced no increase.  The master ordered that what he had be taken away and given to the one who had the most.  Mat 25.29 says, "For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away."  I do not believe the rewards are not the same for all.  The salvation is.  Jer 32.19 says, "Lord of hosts, great in counsel and mighty in deed, whose eyes are open to all the ways of the children of man, rewarding each one according to his ways and according to the fruit of his deeds."  1 Cor 3:15 says, "If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."  1 Tim 4:10 says, "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, especially of those who believe."  Those who believe will be especially rewarded!

You said:
"    Luke 15:23 "And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry."
The "fatted calf" represented the crème de la crème as far as rewards.
    Luke 15:32 "For this SON OF MINE was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found."
The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. But he answered his father, 'Hey! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders.
Yet you never gave me even a young goat, so I could celebrate with my friends. However, when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fatted calf - the best of the best that you have - for him!'
'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.'  "


This was a celebration, not a rewards banquet.  The father was not rewarding his son for doing wrong, he was celebrating his son's return.

The scriptures I quoted above seem to me to be suggesting degrees of reward.  I believe we all agree around here that salvation is for ALL - I would never debate that.


What you are referring to is our sanctification. Salvation is ours because of what Christ DID, not what we do. However, what our status and quality of THIS LIFE will be like is dependent on us. We will reap what we sow (if we have not repented of any of it). That is what the "hay, wood, straw, stubble" versus "gold and silver" references are about. We are NOT a single "substance." We are an accumulation of all our thoughts, feelings and actions (deeds) throughout our lives. Some is hay, wood, stubble (dross) ...... some is gold and silver (love). All that we have held in ourselves that is "love" will REMAIN with us when we die and are resurrected in the spirit. Any of the "dross" - hay, wood, and stubble" that we repent of will also remain because of our changed, transformed loving understanding about it.

Everything else will be "refined out." This is the variable reaping Christ referred to....... a "hundredfold, sixty fold and thirty fold." The more "gold and silver" (love) we have within us ...... the more we "save" for the next life .... and the "less" has to be refined out of us. But when the refining is complete and the silver is so pure that the Silversmith can "see His Own reflection in the pure silver," God's fullness will be in ALL - and all of mankind will be in the perfect "image of God" - which was God's plan and purpose from the beginning. No one is going to have a greater reward than someone else in THE END. We reap what we sow here and now, but in the end, we will be in the perfect image and likeness of God once everything is refined out of us. Some will have more "dross" to refine out of them than others, but we are saved "as by fire" (1 Corinthians 3:15) all the same.

In 1 Timothy 4:10, the "especially" means that for the believers He is "especially" their Savior because He affects their daily lives here and now ..... not just after death. That is why they benefit most of all (especially - Greek = malista) from His salvation.

What kind of rewards are you referring to in the Spirit anyway?

This is all spiritual representation. The only reward that exists in spiritual reality is Christ IN YOU. There are no other rewards. And when God is ALL IN ALL - how could someone have 'more' of ALL?

The only difference in reward as far as the next life is the TIMING.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 01:34:13 AM by BirdSong »

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Are babies and retarded people saved by default?
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2013, 01:50:19 AM »
I agree with jbertonbounds on this one. I see where Paul says there are different glories in the resurrection, some of stars some of planets etc. There are several statements by our Lord that indicate that there are measures of reward- as well as measures of discipline for wrong doing. I know it is popular to make all things irrelevant except for the eventuallity that time will even it out for all. I do not believe this is accurate.

I could be wrong mind you :o) But I prefer to go with the language of scripture and ther are to many simple statements about reaping rewards and suffering loss for me to accept that it could all be just time sensitive illusion- the rewards and the losses are real, and IMO eternal- tho because of the great generosity of our God, there will be no sense of loss once He is ALL IN ALL.

Paul spoke of saints refusing release from imprisonment so that they might "obtain a better resurrection". This kind of investment has great rewards according to the word as I see it.

There is a parable about some laborers in a field tho- some worked9hours, some worked five hours some worked one hour- they were all payed the same- but I would guess those who did respond to the offer of work and stayed home received nothing.
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Offline mplsfitter539

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Re: Are babies and retarded people saved by default?
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2013, 06:03:58 PM »
Timing is the one factor that plays into God's home court. God has all the time He needs because He owns time. He created it therefore he owns it and takes complete responsibility for it and all that it effects.

Offline jbertonbounds

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Re: Are babies and retarded people saved by default?
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2013, 06:08:39 PM »
I am fascinated by the fact that God is not bound to the dimension of time like we are.  I often have wondered how that plays into eschatology. :Chinscratch:

Offline mplsfitter539

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Re: Are babies and retarded people saved by default?
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2013, 09:42:39 PM »
I am fascinated by the fact that God is not bound to the dimension of time like we are.  I often have wondered how that plays into eschatology. :Chinscratch:
I just had to quote you on this so that I will have 100 posts just like you do.  :banana:

Offline jbertonbounds

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Re: Are babies and retarded people saved by default?
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2013, 10:38:42 PM »
 :laughing7:

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Are babies and retarded people saved by default?
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2013, 05:07:34 AM »
I am fascinated by the fact that God is not bound to the dimension of time like we are.  I often have wondered how that plays into eschatology. :Chinscratch:

It is the overwhelming foundation of understanding eschatology, imo.

"I am that I am" and "Who was and Who is and Who will be" is the other. God is "now" in every continuum, transient, omniscient, completely permeating and also completely transcending time.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hell-is-a-myth.webs.com

Offline mplsfitter539

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Re: Are babies and retarded people saved by default?
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2013, 06:11:38 AM »
 :iagree: :banana:

Offline jbertonbounds

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Re: Are babies and retarded people saved by default?
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2013, 06:19:47 PM »
I am fascinated by the fact that God is not bound to the dimension of time like we are.  I often have wondered how that plays into eschatology. :Chinscratch:

It is the overwhelming foundation of understanding eschatology, imo.

"I am that I am" and "Who was and Who is and Who will be" is the other. God is "now" in every continuum, transient, omniscient, completely permeating and also completely transcending time.

Wow, that's deep.  This is probably one of those subjects that one could spend a lifetime studying.  I'm not ready for this one yet. :dunno2: :laugh:

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Are babies and retarded people saved by default?
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2013, 11:06:50 PM »
 :flamebreath:
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hell-is-a-myth.webs.com

Offline mplsfitter539

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Re: Are babies and retarded people saved by default?
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2013, 11:24:37 PM »
Time is always on His side :banana: (happy banana)

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Are babies and retarded people saved by default?
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2013, 01:13:36 AM »
Ha Ha, That's why I am glad He is on my side :o)
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hell-is-a-myth.webs.com