Author Topic: Fallibility of God  (Read 1803 times)

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Offline Warhawk17

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Fallibility of God
« on: June 04, 2013, 05:42:20 AM »
Earlier today I was having a discussion with someone on the sovereignty of God, and he would like to believe that God is in complete control, but he gave me this verse and asked me to study it. He thinks God is fallible and makes mistakes because of it. How do I explain it?

Genesis 6: 5-7

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Offline lomarah

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2013, 07:42:41 AM »
That passage of scripture always tugs at my heart, to think of Father grieving so over His children.

You could ask him how it is that hundreds of prophecy scriptures that were written thousands of years ahead of time prophesied the Christ and all of the things that would happen surrounding His life and death?

As parents we also grieve when our children are hurting themselves or one another. True we are not God and did not in truth create them but I see it as the same thing here with Yhwh grieving over the evil in His children. No it did not mean He made a "mistake", only that He was sorrowful over all of the evil. I 100% fully believe that He certainly knew beforehand that it would happen and that it was in fact meant to. And all of this "madness" will make sense in the end.

Acts 17:26 - From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.

Blessings.  :HeartThrob:
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline Ken

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2013, 08:30:11 AM »
Hello Warhawk17,

Perhaps this article will help explain how God operates:

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d950801.htm

Thanks for the question.

Ken
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A Worldwide Ekklesia Dedicated to the Life Learning Process

Offline mplsfitter539

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2013, 04:11:13 PM »
God does everything within his own will with zero mistakes. Christ was crucified before the foundation of the earth. This says it all.
1 Peter 1
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

Solid proof that God had already redeemed everyone of his children before he created them. He will bring everyone of His children through the fire in His own time. We all must be salted with fire.

Mark 9
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Nothing ever happens outside of God's will. God's thelema will can be thwarted but His bulema will is His unchangeable will so although God wills (thelema) us not to do a certain thing and we respond negatively it matters not because everything is in His plan (bulema).

The difference here is that God has a will and a plan and in Hebrew the difference is clear but in English it would appear that he has only one form of will.

DuWayne
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Offline micah7:9

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2013, 05:10:36 PM »
 :iagree:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline ed

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2013, 05:12:23 PM »


Just from our perspective this is a childish act of God.  It is obvious that it will happen again, and again, and again, and destroying fixes nothing.
Two choices.  Believe the doctrine of God's infallibility and the Bible's inerrancy, or allow your beliefs to change and include the fact that the inspired writers may have misrepresented God.  I go with the latter.

.

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2013, 05:15:52 PM »


Just from our perspective this is a childish act of God.  It is obvious that it will happen again, and again, and again, and destroying fixes nothing.
Two choices.  Believe the doctrine of God's infallibility and the Bible's inerrancy, or allow your beliefs to change and include the fact that the inspired writers may have misrepresented God.  I go with the latter.

.

I go with the former - the latter choice puts you on shaky, shifting ground.  If writers have misrepresented God, they could not have been inspired.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline ed

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2013, 05:21:52 PM »
I go with the former - the latter choice puts you on shaky, shifting ground.  If writers have misrepresented God, they could not have been inspired.

Shaky ground we are on.  Are you inspired?  Have you never misrepresented God?  The writers though inspired still have the influence of current God concept, culture, doctrine, belief systems.  This does not mean that they have no inspiration at all from God.  It simply means that God works with us in spite of our missed mark of understanding.

Yup, this calls into question inerrancy.  It is a subject that must be questioned.  Inerrancy is a doctrine of men that is either truth or a lie.   Again I go with the latter.

.


Offline ed

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2013, 05:31:37 PM »
The fallibility of God is not really the problem.  The fallibility of doctrine is the problem.  The fallibility of mans understanding is the issue.  The writer wrote of God as the writer understood God.  As inspired as we are, we will always be in a place that we don't have full understanding of God.  This in no way makes God fallible. 

Doctrine can work against us.  It puts us in a state of unmovableness.  "Knowledge puffeth up, charity builds up".  When we think we know, we often miss the lesson.



Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2013, 06:11:54 PM »
I go with the former - the latter choice puts you on shaky, shifting ground.  If writers have misrepresented God, they could not have been inspired.

Shaky ground we are on.  Are you inspired?  Have you never misrepresented God?  The writers though inspired still have the influence of current God concept, culture, doctrine, belief systems.  This does not mean that they have no inspiration at all from God.  It simply means that God works with us in spite of our missed mark of understanding.

Yup, this calls into question inerrancy.  It is a subject that must be questioned.  Inerrancy is a doctrine of men that is either truth or a lie.   Again I go with the latter.

.

Given the coding in the text (not the ELS coding), I go again with the former.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline marie glen

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2013, 06:43:26 PM »
hi! That God repented Himself that He had made man.. to me, means he did indeed feel regret at creating man (and endowing him with the ability to think, ponder and thus choose!)

It's interesting to note, later.. a few generations after the flood, at Tower Babble (Babel) God said (to the Son) "look what they do, as one, nothing will be prevented them" - nothing would soon be beyond them, likely self destruction waay before God's Lesson has been proven.. teaching, accomplishing.. nothing. (And note how, now, mankind is again becoming 'one'.)

I'm sure God has regretted creating man (and like angels, endowing him with rationality, a pandora's box which brought about a whole new world, or tree, of possibilities, most of it very unpleasant, especially to God!).

What I find most interesting is God must be life, the life force itself, for "in the beginning-God." And, He is also Perfection (surely?!) [but once one chooses anything other than what God does they become imperfect, the opposite of life, thus, the rescue and re-conciliation needed).

Yet, because God is life He lives through and experiences aLL sufferings (and indignations) which ever occur! Why would He put Himself through all that? I'm thinking, because He's not creating an ant farm or robots, but His own family! and an eternally un-breakable paradise (for the full knowing of good from evil, which is also life from death and true from untrue, will be deeeply engraved upon every heart, mind and psyche.)

Here's another related question: why did God wait so very long and only create the universe and man and woman, not only after the 1st bound-to-occur rebel thought had occurred, but after it had matured into outright sedition and trickery? Didn't He know what would happen? :LH: Of course He did! - He planned and did it just the way He did, so aLL would take this unavoidable journey and lesson, all at once, and together, otherwise, one would stray now, another, later, another still later.. and later.. ..and later.. taking virtually 'forever'.

Unavoidable, that is, if there is to be rational creatures.. otherwise? no rational creatures, ever....????

jes my :2c: :hiya: 
blessings,
glenda
- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection) will be weeping and wailing? Holy Days - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles prophecy the three peaks of His long 2nd advent? Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
``````````````````````````````````````````````````
- "...aLL things new" Rev21:5 "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1 - Is 11:7 Micah 4:4 Is 30:25
http://www.bubblews.com/news/7803879-watching-a-squirrel

Offline marie glen

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2013, 07:00:56 PM »
I agree "inerrancy" of the Word is a concept of men.. as we know for a fact there are certain mistranslations from the original.. there's also genealogies and such which have some discrepancies, but these were likely taken from the records of men..

There are other things which "the world" finds fault with, like when Jesus said "from the four corners of the earth" - I've heard folks say this meant Jesus thought the world was flat (rofL!) but of course the four corners is the four directions, north, south, east, west (dah!! :laughing7:)

And then there's the difference in small details of the gospel testimonies.. but these tho, as has been said here, were inspired by God, they were still written at least 30 years after the events, and since when don't ppl's memories and testimonies differ some? And what would be the claim when testimonies don't differ in some small details? that they cooked it up amongst themselves!

And of course the world finds fault with God in the Old Testament, being rather strict and also punishing nations and even Israel.. but they don't know what habitual habits and patterns He simply had to break up! human sacrifice.. the placing of live babies into burning fires as sacrifices to 'the gods' - what deity/God worth His salt wouldn't be extremely angry over thAt? :)

And the tiny nation of Israel, in one purpose among many in God's plan, was to be a place somewhat prepared for the coming of Messiah Jesus, "savior of the world" to be His swaddling cloths so to speak.. instead of coming from among a tribe of tree worshipers or something.. It's all His Great Plan and Lesson, His Perfect intent. I would say I very much believe Him to be infallible, but man's understanding of His Word, not. :girlheart:

blessings,
glenda
- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection) will be weeping and wailing? Holy Days - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles prophecy the three peaks of His long 2nd advent? Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
``````````````````````````````````````````````````
- "...aLL things new" Rev21:5 "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1 - Is 11:7 Micah 4:4 Is 30:25
http://www.bubblews.com/news/7803879-watching-a-squirrel

Offline mplsfitter539

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2013, 07:09:36 PM »


Here's another related question: why did God wait so very long and only create the universe and man and woman, not only after the 1st bound-to-occur rebel thought had occurred, but after it had matured into outright sedition and trickery? Didn't He know what would happen? :LH: Of course He did! - He planned and did it just the way He did, so aLL would take this unavoidable journey and lesson, all at once, and together, otherwise, one would stray now, another, later, another still later.. and later.. ..and later.. taking virtually 'forever'.

Unavoidable, that is, if there is to be rational creatures.. otherwise? no rational creatures, ever....????

jes my :2c: :hiya: 
blessings,
glenda
Marie this is the exact same argument that I bring up to "Christians" I know. I say things like "do you really think for a second that the creator of the universe made mistakes and then showed His power by fixing His own mistakes?" Not my YHVH !
When I suggest the possibility they worship "another Jesus" they are enraged with their own righteous indignation. I contend that God planned everything in advance and it is progressing along within His preexisting time frame laid out before He created the heavens and the earth.
Shema O Israel, Yahweh our Elohim is Yahweh echad!!!

Offline CHB

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2013, 08:50:35 PM »


Here's another related question: why did God wait so very long and only create the universe and man and woman, not only after the 1st bound-to-occur rebel thought had occurred, but after it had matured into outright sedition and trickery? Didn't He know what would happen? :LH: Of course He did! - He planned and did it just the way He did, so aLL would take this unavoidable journey and lesson, all at once, and together, otherwise, one would stray now, another, later, another still later.. and later.. ..and later.. taking virtually 'forever'.

Unavoidable, that is, if there is to be rational creatures.. otherwise? no rational creatures, ever....????

jes my :2c: :hiya: 
blessings,
glenda
Marie this is the exact same argument that I bring up to "Christians" I know. I say things like "do you really think for a second that the creator of the universe made mistakes and then showed His power by fixing His own mistakes?" Not my YHVH !
When I suggest the possibility they worship "another Jesus" they are enraged with their own righteous indignation. I contend that God planned everything in advance and it is progressing along within His preexisting time frame laid out before He created the heavens and the earth.

Exactly. I would be a little worried if God thought he had made a mistake and had to fix it. I would wonder what other mistakes he had made. Goodness, it would be scarey.

CHB

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2013, 11:06:20 PM »


Here's another related question: why did God wait so very long and only create the universe and man and woman, not only after the 1st bound-to-occur rebel thought had occurred, but after it had matured into outright sedition and trickery? Didn't He know what would happen? :LH: Of course He did! - He planned and did it just the way He did, so aLL would take this unavoidable journey and lesson, all at once, and together, otherwise, one would stray now, another, later, another still later.. and later.. ..and later.. taking virtually 'forever'.

Unavoidable, that is, if there is to be rational creatures.. otherwise? no rational creatures, ever....????

jes my :2c: :hiya: 
blessings,
glenda
Marie this is the exact same argument that I bring up to "Christians" I know. I say things like "do you really think for a second that the creator of the universe made mistakes and then showed His power by fixing His own mistakes?" Not my YHVH !
When I suggest the possibility they worship "another Jesus" they are enraged with their own righteous indignation. I contend that God planned everything in advance and it is progressing along within His preexisting time frame laid out before He created the heavens and the earth.

Exactly. I would be a little worried if God thought he had made a mistake and had to fix it. I would wonder what other mistakes he had made. Goodness, it would be scarey.

CHB

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Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline JBerton

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2013, 12:27:31 AM »
Just because God felt regret and sorrow at the condition of man does not mean that the creation of humans was a mistake. 

Recently, I felt like it was God's will for me to leave the organized church.  So I left.  I knew I must do it, but I also felt sorrow, grief, and regret.  But it was definitely not a mistake.

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Offline Warhawk17

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2013, 07:11:43 AM »
Thank you for the answers everyone. Unfortunately I've been talking to a lot of unbelievers lately and sharing the good news with them trying to explain concepts like these, and they think I'm nuts and constantly tell me to prove things. So I show them things in the scriptures that prove these concepts, and they say they that scripture doesn't prove anything. Then they'll throw some jabs to me about God being cruel and the Bible promoting violence and hatred because they don't understand context in the Old Testament. Those people are just very difficult to get through to, and it saddens me, but at the same time I understand that it is God who blinds them from seeing the truth.

Luckily I'm not the nuttiest one in this forum according to them. There's this young lady who's the traditional Christian who always scolds the unbelievers about how they're going to Hell. It was funny because while she was condemning all these people to Hell, she said that God always triumphs over Satan. I called her out on that asking how she could believe that God triumphs over Satan while most of the world goes to Hell. She of course had no good answer so she just gave me a smug, self righteous response. She basically called me stupid and said I wasn't a true believer if I asked questions like that. I should respond to her to tell her that she is the nonbeliever because she doesn't believe in the finished work of the cross.


Offline mplsfitter539

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2013, 01:34:03 PM »
Thank you for the answers everyone. Unfortunately I've been talking to a lot of unbelievers lately and sharing the good news with them trying to explain concepts like these, and they think I'm nuts and constantly tell me to prove things. So I show them things in the scriptures that prove these concepts, and they say they that scripture doesn't prove anything. Then they'll throw some jabs to me about God being cruel and the Bible promoting violence and hatred because they don't understand context in the Old Testament. Those people are just very difficult to get through to, and it saddens me, but at the same time I understand that it is God who blinds them from seeing the truth.

Luckily I'm not the nuttiest one in this forum according to them. There's this young lady who's the traditional Christian who always scolds the unbelievers about how they're going to Hell. It was funny because while she was condemning all these people to Hell, she said that God always triumphs over Satan. I called her out on that asking how she could believe that God triumphs over Satan while most of the world goes to Hell. She of course had no good answer so she just gave me a smug, self righteous response. She basically called me stupid and said I wasn't a true believer if I asked questions like that. I should respond to her to tell her that she is the nonbeliever because she doesn't believe in the finished work of the cross.
If you find a way to turn her around let me know exactly how you did it and I will try it on my family :laughing7:
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Offline JBerton

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2013, 11:37:04 PM »
Unfortunately I've been talking to a lot of unbelievers lately and sharing the good news with them...

Unfortunately?  If you have been blessed with a lot of opportunities to share the gospel of victory, you are definitely blessed.  I would hardly call that unfortunate.  :winkgrin:

Luckily I'm not the nuttiest one in this forum...

I think it's the "nuts" that God can use the most.  Blessed again!  And that was not "luck," my friend. :thumbsup:
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Offline dajomaco

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2013, 12:19:03 AM »
The idea that we could never speak  the name of God properly.

Sort of struck a chord with me reading this post.

The very idea that we could describe God accurately is foolish.
The idea that words like sovereign or eternal   or omnipotent  describe God
more accurately than other words misses the point.

God is that which cannot be described.
If we conclude that God could describe himself to us ,
 the description shows us ,us

Offline JBerton

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2013, 02:48:54 AM »
The idea that we could never speak  the name of God properly.

Sort of struck a chord with me reading this post.

The very idea that we could describe God accurately is foolish.
The idea that words like sovereign or eternal   or omnipotent  describe God
more accurately than other words misses the point.

God is that which cannot be described.
If we conclude that God could describe himself to us ,
 the description shows us ,us

So true.  God made himself know to us in as much as we can understand.  But no human mind can conceive of his full greatness, love, and character.  We can only just begin to describe God.  We know he is love.  We know he is almighty.  We know he is merciful and forgiving.  But these qualities are just a drop in the bucket (or ocean) of what God fully is. :dsunny:
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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2013, 06:58:07 PM »
I'm gonna look into this one because I believe there is some translation error.
A huge part of the problems is cause satan.
If God makes mistakes He doesnt learn from them.
He writes down prophesies so satan can hunt down His Son and stop salvation.
God even writes in Revelation when and how He will destroy satan.
Not very smart if you don't have total control.
So either God is very stupid or extremely confident.....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Fallibility of God
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2013, 07:06:02 PM »
Mmm, that was easy. Primary word meaning "to be sorry for". Has pity.

 
Gen 6:7 (AKJV)
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repents me that I have made them.

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...