Author Topic: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms  (Read 6791 times)

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Offline Eduard

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #100 on: July 17, 2013, 10:00:34 AM »
1 Peter 5:10

And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.


All suffering ans evil of this world is nothing compared to the bliss of the kigdom of God in my opinion.
Micah 7:7

But as for me, I will look to the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God will hear me.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #101 on: July 18, 2013, 12:13:34 AM »
I didn't say God DID evil.  What you are saying is true, "God does no evil nor can He be tempted with evil."  Let me add that God tempts no one with evil.  Let us not confuse evil with sin.  Many use these terms interchangeably. 

IMO they are not the same thing.  Evil is something that causes destruction, disorder, calamity, division.  Sin is any human error that goes against God's will and in favor of human will; to sin is to err.  Sin is evil, but evil is not sin.  To do evil is sin - to sin is to do evil.  To do evil is sin because it causes some form of destruction.  Likewise, to sin is evil for the same reason.

Who created all things?  God.  Therefore, who created Satan?  God.  Did God create Satan only to realize later that he would be evil?  No.  God knew WHEN he created Satan that he would be evil.  Yet he created him anyway.  Who created humans?  God.  Who gave humans our weakness?  God.  Who put us on the earth?  God.  Who allowed evil Satan to roam the earth?  God.  Who allowed Satan to tempt the weak humans?  God.  Who commanded humans to multiply and fill the earth (where Satan roams) despite our weak condition?  God.  Did God look at his creation after the fall of man and say, "Oops!  I didn't see that coming." :sigh:?  No.  It was all part of the plan since from before the creation.  Through our weakness we would see the glory of God in his love and salvation.  God is in full control of this universe, always has been, always will be.  It is his will to be all-in-all in the end, and this is his plan to get there.

I cannot claim, in this particular discussion, to hav the "full coin" and I do not pretend too. I just see some holes in what is being presented as foundational truth so I am pointing them out- purely as opinions from my own perspective- not for the purpose of overturning someone elses position but rather to say.... I think the real deal is a little further in, a little higher up, a little deeper down :o)

Actually, I presented this as MY OPINION, as you can see above.

Hey JB, this is just a forum and I am responding to the general topic, not you in particular- If I explain the reasoning behind my perspective it is so ANYONE ELSE who is reading can get a whiff of where I am coming from- not a commentary on any individuals position, because the subject is so broad- I wouldn't think to pigeonhole you or anyone else like that. Like I said, for me it is just a discussion. :o)
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Offline KingKenny

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #102 on: August 09, 2013, 08:24:04 PM »
A quick question for those who believe in demonic spirits (like I do):

Where do these spirits reside?

For example, when you deal with spirit guides or communicate with the dead (like I used to with the former), where do they live/stay? When I believed in Hell, it was easy to say they all came from there, but now I'm not so sure.

Tom

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #103 on: August 09, 2013, 08:42:09 PM »
A quick question for those who believe in demonic spirits (like I do):

Where do these spirits reside?

For example, when you deal with spirit guides or communicate with the dead (like I used to with the former), where do they live/stay? When I believed in Hell, it was easy to say they all came from there, but now I'm not so sure.

"Satan," Hebrew for "Adversary," also known as "the Adversary," "the dragon," "the ancient serpent," "the Slanderer," and "the chief of the jurisdiction of the air" is head of the forces of evil.

Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."

"Apollyon" (Greek) and "Abaddon" (Hebrew) meaning "Destroyer" is the messenger of the abyss.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #104 on: August 09, 2013, 09:00:44 PM »
A quick question for those who believe in demonic spirits (like I do):

Where do these spirits reside?

For example, when you deal with spirit guides or communicate with the dead (like I used to with the former), where do they live/stay? When I believed in Hell, it was easy to say they all came from there, but now I'm not so sure.





"Satan," Hebrew for "Adversary," also known as "the Adversary," "the dragon," "the ancient serpent," "the Slanderer," and "the chief of the jurisdiction of the air" is head of the forces of evil.

Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."

"Apollyon" (Greek) and "Abaddon" (Hebrew) meaning "Destroyer" is the messenger of the abyss.



I may be incorrect but, flesh and blood would be terrestial G1919 epigeios   worldly (physically or morally): - earthly, in earth, terrestrial.
And Paul wrote, Eph 6:12  because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;
That "flesh and blood" would be terrestial, correct? and Paul says we are warring "with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; "

So how can what you said be so? "Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."

Just wondering :Chinscratch:

Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Tom

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #105 on: August 09, 2013, 09:21:19 PM »
A quick question for those who believe in demonic spirits (like I do):

Where do these spirits reside?

For example, when you deal with spirit guides or communicate with the dead (like I used to with the former), where do they live/stay? When I believed in Hell, it was easy to say they all came from there, but now I'm not so sure.





"Satan," Hebrew for "Adversary," also known as "the Adversary," "the dragon," "the ancient serpent," "the Slanderer," and "the chief of the jurisdiction of the air" is head of the forces of evil.

Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."

"Apollyon" (Greek) and "Abaddon" (Hebrew) meaning "Destroyer" is the messenger of the abyss.



I may be incorrect but, flesh and blood would be terrestial G1919 epigeios   worldly (physically or morally): - earthly, in earth, terrestrial.
And Paul wrote, Eph 6:12  because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;
That "flesh and blood" would be terrestial, correct? and Paul says we are warring "with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; "

So how can what you said be so? "Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."

Just wondering :Chinscratch:

There are several accounts in the Greek scriptures about Christ casting out demons from folks here on earth which is the terrestrial realm.

14 And he was casting out a demon, and it was a mute one. Now it occurred, at the coming out of the demon, that the mute man speaks. And the throngs marvel.
15 Yet some of them said, "By Beelzeboul, the chief of the demons, is he casting out the demons." Yet He, answering, said, "How can Satan be casting out Satan?"
16 Yet others, trying Him, sought a sign out of heaven from Him.
17 Yet He, aware of their cogitations, said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is being desolated, and house against house is falling.
18 Now if Satan, also, is divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand-seeing that you are saying, I am casting out the demons by Beelzeboul? (Luke 11:14-18)

Christ seems to be implying that Beelzeboul is a subordinate of Satan.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 09:29:56 PM by Tom »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #106 on: August 09, 2013, 09:42:59 PM »
"Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."

"Apollyon" (Greek) and "Abaddon" (Hebrew) meaning "Destroyer" is the messenger of the abyss."



I may be incorrect but, flesh and blood would be terrestial G1919 epigeios   worldly (physically or morally): - earthly, in earth, terrestrial.
And Paul wrote, Eph 6:12  because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;
That "flesh and blood" would be terrestial, correct? and Paul says we are warring "with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; "

So how can what you said be so? "Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."

Just wondering :Chinscratch:

I don't believe I said anything about where the casting out took place. Most certainly the casting out was from earthy-terrestial. I misunderstood the question from KingKenny  "Where do these spirits reside?
I thought, where do they reside, was meaning before they are sent for their purpose. He suggested hell. I guess it's my error....sorry :Peace2:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Tom

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #107 on: August 09, 2013, 10:35:52 PM »
"Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."

"Apollyon" (Greek) and "Abaddon" (Hebrew) meaning "Destroyer" is the messenger of the abyss."



I may be incorrect but, flesh and blood would be terrestial G1919 epigeios   worldly (physically or morally): - earthly, in earth, terrestrial.
And Paul wrote, Eph 6:12  because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;
That "flesh and blood" would be terrestial, correct? and Paul says we are warring "with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places; "

So how can what you said be so? "Demons are deceiving spirits of the terrestrial realm whose chief is "Beelzeboul," or "Beezeboul."

Just wondering :Chinscratch:

I don't believe I said anything about where the casting out took place. Most certainly the casting out was from earthy-terrestial. I misunderstood the question from KingKenny  "Where do these spirits reside?
I thought, where do they reside, was meaning before they are sent for their purpose. He suggested hell. I guess it's my error....sorry :Peace2:

We're all just students of scripture, bro, trying to understand its mysteries. I think it's great we have a place to share our ideas so we can all see different perspectives. I don't use the King James anymore. So I don't use the word "hell" because I know it's just an Old English word used to translate the Greek "hades" which literally means "unseen" referring to the "unseen" state of dead souls. I don't consider "hell" a place where evil spirits reside. I don't even consider it a place despite the fact that I know church doctrine says it's a place where Satan lives and torments dead unbelievers who are said to be alive. I prefer the Concordant Version to the King James. It's a more accurate translation that doesn't have "hell" in it. I think the "spirits reside" in the spiritual realm, but demons seem to operate in the terrestrial realm. http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheSpiritWorld/index.html
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 11:44:01 PM by Tom »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #108 on: August 10, 2013, 12:03:21 AM »
I still and will always read and use the KJV. For me it is the one translation that transports the essence of how theology and all it's denominations "try" to explain to people who the Lord has found and who have yielded to His Love as to what He has said. The Lord has enlightened me to the many translations and versions and I use them. Like one poster used the idiom in Mat 19:24  And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

The Lamsa translation makes it clear, "Again I say to you,It is easier for a rope to go through the eye of a needle......****The Aramaic word for "gamla" means rope and camel.

"  I think the "spirits reside" in the spiritual realm, but demons seem to operate in the terrestrial realm." (Tom)

I read the spirits reside in the "high places" and those warring spirits, which are devils, are sent to the earthy-terrestrial, you and me, to cause havoc to our spiritual walk. That of course is my opinion. :Peace2:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #109 on: August 10, 2013, 12:55:20 AM »
I've checked out the Lamsa and other Aramaic versions. That's funny! This program they have here changed the spelling of the "P" word for the Aramaic version twice to "Percrapta" because it had four letters in it that looked like scat to the censor I guess. I use the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer which provides comparison of the Concordant Version with the King James and Young's Literal Translation, but I do my reading with the Concordant Version. Spirits are obviously in the invisible spiritual realm which I think is subject to a different experience of time and space than we are, but all I remember reading about demons is stories of them causing trouble for us mortals here on earth. I don't think they can "possess" believers, but they still try to deceive us. By the way, the Concordant Version doesn't use the word "devil" either.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 01:00:43 AM by Tom »

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #110 on: August 10, 2013, 01:43:04 AM »
Ephesians 2:2 seems to imply it is Satan who is "the chief of the jurisdiction of the air." Scripture says there are at least three layers of heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2). I don't believe the church myth that Satan is under the ground in a pit of fire torturing dead unbelievers. Satan is in heaven now, but he will be cast out in the future (Revelation 12:9).

Here are a few verses relevant to the so called "fall of Satan" that is not in the scriptures.

Ezekiel refers to the king of Tyre not Satan (Ezekiel 28:15). The king of Tyre is a man, and Satan is not a man (Ezekiel 28:2,9).

Isaiah refers to the King of Babylon in the future day of Israel's restoration not Satan's fall in the past (Isaiah 14:3-20). Then Satan will have been cast out of heaven (Revelation 12:9). The King of Babylon is a man (Isaiah 14:16), and Satan is not a man.

"Lucifer" is used once in the King James Version as a mistranslation of the Hebrew for "howl" (Isaiah 14:12). The same exact Hebrew word is used in (Zechariah 11:2). Variations of the word are in (Isaiah 14:31; 13:6; 15:2,3; 16:7; 23:1,6,14; 52:5; 65:14).

Luke refers to Satan's action in response to the casting out of demons in Christ's name not the so called "fall of Satan" (Luke 10:18).

"From the beginning is the Adversary sinning." (1 John 3:8)

"He was a man-killer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not in him. Whenever he may be speaking a lie, he is speaking of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44)

Most Christians won't believe you if you tell them Satan is in heaven, but that's because church doctrine doesn't conform to the word of God. 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 01:51:54 AM by Tom »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #111 on: August 10, 2013, 03:12:31 AM »
The adversary, satan as some refer to the enemy, never "fell" from anywhere. The devil was a murderer and liar from the beginning. Isa. and Ezk. are religious myths and kept alive for the purpose of control.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #112 on: August 10, 2013, 03:40:35 AM »
Amen, bro. Everything the church does is for control through fear.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #113 on: August 10, 2013, 06:53:52 AM »
The church you are referring to is the one that has a name that lives, but is dead. Or the one that is a synagogue of Satan. it is not the one that is the body of the Lord- the fulness of Him who fills all in all :o)
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Offline micah7:9

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #114 on: August 10, 2013, 07:26:22 AM »
I, me personally take issue with that statement.
"The church you are referring to is the one that has a name that lives, but is dead. Or the one that is a synagogue of Satan. it is not the one that is the body of the Lord- the fulness of Him who fills all in all :o)"

It most certainly is. Just where do you believe, think, or consider, where the adversary, satan, the enemy, the devil, the accuser resides? Outside of the called out? Just what good would that do? The enemy is right there, in your face every day. Can you deny it? I can't.
Rev 2:9  I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Either the adversary is ruling or Jesus is ruling........you be the decisive vote, I am weak.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Tom

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #115 on: August 10, 2013, 05:24:08 PM »
I understand what folks are saying about the "false church," but I think "church" is the worldly system established by the Roman Empire based on doctrine that contradicts the word of God with corrupt tradition of man even if you're of the Protestant persuasion. I think we are the "ecclesia," the "called-out" of the worldly system to be the "body of Christ." Our fleshly bodies are still here to shine the light of God's love in this world of darkness, but we know we're headed to our home in heaven some day. Like I said, there are believers in the church who don't realize the doctrine they are taught is false. I think we all here were probably there at one time. I just prefer to call us the "ecclesia" rather than the "church." I was raised in the Roman church, and I refuse to have anything to do with it anymore because I know what it's about. I know how it tortured and killed people just for reading scripture and distorted scripture to deceive people to perpetuate its own worldly power. Protestants don't seem to realize they are still really a part of the Roman church because they teach its doctrine of immortality of the soul, torture forever in fire for those who die as unbelievers, and the triune godhead. I've been "called-out" of the church, and I'm not compromising with it in any way including any of its terminology that undermines scripture truth. That's why I don't distinguish between the real church and the false church. The pope is head of the church, but Christ is head of the ecclesia. The word "church" is not in Greek scripture. I say all this in the spirit of love to all my brothers and sisters here whether they still follow church tradition or not. I don't need the tradition of the church to follow Christ. I have the word of God inspired by the spirit of God, and I have the fellowship of the body of Christ. I come to this website to share the spirit of God with my brothers and sisters in the body of Christ, but I'm not a member of any church and never will be again.

Offline Lloyd

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #116 on: August 11, 2013, 11:31:48 PM »
Didn't have time to read this whole thread, but a couple of interesting Biblical passages on the subject are: 1) I think in Acts some Jews tried to cast out a demon in the name of Jesus, but the demon went after them and gave them some serious grief - maybe the lesson was to know what you're doing first, or something like that; 2) Maybe in Samuel, King Saul had made a decree or something against mediums who contact spirits, but then when he found his life endangered by his own disobedience to God he went to a medium to ask her to contact Samuel for him, after Samuel had died. Although she was afraid it might be a trap apparently, she did agree to do it and apparently Samuel did come through her to talk with Saul, predicting that Saul had done a foolish thing and he would be killed after all 70 of his own sons died, so that David's house could take the kingship, I think.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #117 on: August 12, 2013, 10:22:48 AM »
I, me personally take issue with that statement.
"The church you are referring to is the one that has a name that lives, but is dead. Or the one that is a synagogue of Satan. it is not the one that is the body of the Lord- the fulness of Him who fills all in all :o)"

It most certainly is. Just where do you believe, think, or consider, where the adversary, satan, the enemy, the devil, the accuser resides? Outside of the called out? Just what good would that do? The enemy is right there, in your face every day. Can you deny it? I can't.
Rev 2:9  I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Either the adversary is ruling or Jesus is ruling........you be the decisive vote, I am weak.

You may hav misunderstood my point, or maybe I am not making it well. My point is, there is something we call "church" that is not really "church" (a tabernacle of living stones fitly joined together bu the mortar of brotherly love, built without hands upon a foundation in the heavens).

Ffom the letters to the seven churches we can see that there are churhes that are

1) totally false

2) full of mixture and given space to repent and return to purity

3) in suffering and glorifying God as overcomers

The real "church" is the ecclesia of God (called out ones), universally registered in heaven(Hebrews 12)

I think people get this confused, and blame the "church" for the works of the synagogues of Satan, so I was saying, I think, pretty much what you are saying- they are not really churches at all- so dont call them "churches" if Messiah has no home in them.

The tru church of the Lord is "the ecclesia", Jesus is their head, and they are His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all.
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Offline KingKenny

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #118 on: August 13, 2013, 01:43:49 PM »
I misunderstood the question from KingKenny  "Where do these spirits reside?
I thought, where do they reside, was meaning before they are sent for their purpose. He suggested hell. I guess it's my error....sorry :Peace2:

That's what I mean. When I was heavy in the New Age Movement, there were those who could conjure up spirits (which after my experiences to date have shown them all to be demonic deceptions) for the purposes of spirit guides, for psychics, to show reincarnation to be true. There are also urban myths of selling your soul to the devil i.e. Robert Johnson (blues guitarist). Whether that is true or not is debatable, but after leaving the occult behind and finally ditching the evil doctrine of eternal damnation, I find myself in a situation pondering where those spirits which I, and others I used to know, dealt with came from?

I don't believe in the eternal hell, but Hades, the realm of the dead. So then, where do they come from?

Tom

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Offline eaglesway

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #120 on: August 14, 2013, 09:14:16 AM »
I misunderstood the question from KingKenny  "Where do these spirits reside?
I thought, where do they reside, was meaning before they are sent for their purpose. He suggested hell. I guess it's my error....sorry :Peace2:

That's what I mean. When I was heavy in the New Age Movement, there were those who could conjure up spirits (which after my experiences to date have shown them all to be demonic deceptions) for the purposes of spirit guides, for psychics, to show reincarnation to be true. There are also urban myths of selling your soul to the devil i.e. Robert Johnson (blues guitarist). Whether that is true or not is debatable, but after leaving the occult behind and finally ditching the evil doctrine of eternal damnation, I find myself in a situation pondering where those spirits which I, and others I used to know, dealt with came from?

I don't believe in the eternal hell, but Hades, the realm of the dead. So then, where do they come from?

Father of lies, Author of confusion, Principalities and powers, rulers of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms.... the best way to deceive is to represent a myriad of truths.

The spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is risen in the flesh, the spirit that confesses Jesus as Messiah and Lord- that spirit is of God. The rest are floating in waterless places seeking hosts like the invasion of the body snatchers :o) If they have hosts, they are seeking to increase their dominion and manifest the nature of the "spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience"- having come only to steal, kill and destroy, the taskmaster, the accuser of the brethren, :2c:
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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Demonic Possession/Exorcisms
« Reply #121 on: August 14, 2013, 12:58:04 PM »
There was a time when I was borderline obsessed with this topic. I've watched many shows and horror movies where people were supposedly possessed by demons, and Catholic priests were called in to perform exorcisms. Many of the shows billed the events as true stories, and I thought these things were the real deal. I don't really believe in that stuff anymore, and I believe many theories about demonic possession come from pagan theology. What is everyone's take on this?
Matt 28:34 28 When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. 29 And they cried out, saying, "[a]What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" 30 Now there was a herd of many swine feeding at a distance from them. 31 The demons began to entreat Him, saying, "If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine." 32 And He said to them, "Go!" And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters. 33 The herdsmen ran away, and went to the city and reported everything, [c]including what had happened to the demoniacs. 34 And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus; and when they saw Him, they implored Him to leave their region.


Unless there a major translation issue or Jesus hired a bunch of actors I would say demon(ic possesion) is real  :URWelcome:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...