Author Topic: I Cor. 15:44-49 (Read 576 times)

micah7:9 · « **on:** August 20, 2011, 02:17:52 AM »

Can anyone point me in the direction where I can find verses in the Bible that reference, with evidence, that the first man/Adam
was spirit first and lowered to flesh?

Other than the interpretation of Heb. 2:7-9? I am just seeking more verses that witness to this thought of spirit first, and will shed some light as to what Paul means when he wrote 1Cor.15:45

I am aware of Col.1:17 and the immenseness that it covers.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

eaglesway · « **Reply #1 on:** August 20, 2011, 03:11:31 AM »

(Job 31:13-15)
"If I have despised the claim of my male or female slaves When they filed a complaint against me,

What then could I do when God arises? And when He calls me to account, what will I answer Him?

"Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb?

(Psa 139:13)
For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb.

(Ecc 11:5 )
Just as you do not know the path of the wind and how bones are formed in the womb of the pregnant woman, so you do not know the activity of God who makes all things.

Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you, 'Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen.
(Isa 44:2)

Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,

Isa 49:5 And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the LORD, And My God is My strength),

Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Altho the last verse could be taken the other way (prexistent spirits) I think it refers to predestination and foreknowledge. The whole exhortation to "be fruitful multiply" speaks to genisis of individuals in the mothers womb. The union of the seed and the ova creates a new being in my opinion.

micah7:9 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 20, 2011, 06:53:37 AM »

"I think it refers to predestination and foreknowledge."

jabcat · « **Reply #3 on:** August 20, 2011, 07:28:47 AM »

Quote from: eaglesway on August 20, 2011, 03:11:31 AM

The union of the seed and the ova creates a new being in my opinion.

I believe that's true. I'm not dogmatic one way or the other, but I tend to think we pre-existed in some form, even if "just" as some part of God - as everything came from and through Him, if I understand correctly. Then whatever and however He put the pieces together (seed and ova) became "us".

I don't know if any of us can ever 100% know for certainty some of these things, as even to the best of our ability, we see through a glass darkly. They are interesting to discuss, study, and think about - but IMO, not to divide over. There are some basic essentials of the faith - then many things one can wonder about.

One day we will know as we are known.

eaglesway · « **Reply #4 on:** August 20, 2011, 07:34:05 AM »

I agree completely with all of that.

jabcat · « **Reply #5 on:** August 20, 2011, 07:57:19 AM »

Quote from: eaglesway on August 20, 2011, 07:34:05 AM

I agree completely with all of that.

micah7:9 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 20, 2011, 08:12:06 AM »

Quote from: jabcat on August 20, 2011, 07:28:47 AM

Quote from: eaglesway on August 20, 2011, 03:11:31 AM

The union of the seed and the ova creates a new being in my opinion.

I believe that's true. I'm not dogmatic one way or the other, but I tend to think we pre-existed in some form, even if "just" as some part of God - as everything came from and through Him, if I understand correctly. Then whatever and however He put the pieces together (seed and ova) became "us".

I don't know if any of us can ever 100% know for certainty some of these things, as even to the best of our ability, we see through a glass darkly. They are interesting to discuss, study, and think about - but IMO, not to divide over. There are some basic essentials of the faith - then many things one can wonder about.

One day we will know as we are known.

I also agree as well... accept I do know that some will know 100% for certain, for there are those who hear,
Rom 8:19 for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God;
Php 3:14 to the mark I pursue for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
To him that overcomes I will give...............
Rev 20:6 Happy and holy, is he that hath part in the first resurrection: upon these, the second death, hath no authority; but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him for the thousand years.
I know you knew that, you must overlook me at times. It is such a joy to my heart to rest on this knowledge.

WhiteWings · « **Reply #7 on:** August 20, 2011, 08:36:50 AM »

Micah,

There are several verses similar to "I knew you before you were born"

That can be about pre-existence but just as well about God's foreknowledge.
I think the only thing that can answer your question is some sort of word study.
For example is there any proof that "knew" is always "in two directions".
So A knew B but B also knew A.
For example I know Obama but he doesn't know me. That's only A knew B.
I don't have such a study. Maybe someone does?
I've seen (and posted) a similar study on what reconciliation is. Is it both ways or not. The answer was buried deep in the Greek words. Maybe something pre-exist

for your question....?

micah7:9 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 20, 2011, 10:22:46 AM »

Thanks. We'll just have to see.

Molly · « **Reply #9 on:** August 20, 2011, 11:20:44 AM »

[John 15:16] Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:

[2 Th 2:13] But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

[Luke 18:6,7] And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith. And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him...

[Eph 1:11-12] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

[1 Cor 1:27-29] God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nothing things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.

[1 Pet 1:2] Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

[Eph 1:5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

[Eph 2:10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Eph 1:4] 'According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love'.

[Rom 8:29] 'For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son'.

[Psa 119:9-11] 'Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word. With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments. Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

'Chosen of God before the foundation of the world'.

.

WhiteWings · « **Reply #10 on:** August 20, 2011, 11:34:41 AM »

1 Corinthians 15:46–47
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

Or is that about resurection only?

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

Matthew 7:21–23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.

The above sounds like a two way relationship.
Jer. 1:5, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you..."

Molly · « **Reply #11 on:** August 20, 2011, 11:52:39 AM »

Quote from: ww

Corinthians 15:46–47
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

Or is that about resurection only?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is talking about men, not spirits. Isn't he the father of spirits?

He says, I knew you in the womb. Who's to say we are not still in the womb?

waiting to be born into our glorified bodies.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump
--1Cor 15

sheila · « **Reply #12 on:** August 20, 2011, 06:38:53 PM »

what's born of flesh is flesh,and what's born of spirit is spirit....that He formed a vessel for Adam,of the dust of the earth...and by giving it the breath

of God... Adam became a living soul..[not spiritually dead to God,but alive..God conversed with Him in the breezy part of the day] He even did the same

again,with Jesus Christ...formed a body for HIM..and placed a pre-existant spiritual son[word of God] 'come' in flesh [vessel] naming Him..

the firstborn of the dead...to resurrect all those who had 'died' in Adam when sin entered in..well if they had died..then they had formerly

been alive...for God is the Father of the 'Living" But Jesus Christ is LORD of the LIVING and the DEAD...with authority to 'RESURRECT"

Through one man sin entered..and death came to all....

the creature was subjected.... the creature existed before it was subjected
ever notice the 'word' speaks about the RE;CREATION...and RE conciliation...the RE refers to a previous state..RE store. RE stitution.....

RE- back to a former state..as in RE-TURN TO GOD

micah7:9 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 20, 2011, 09:31:52 PM »

"....with evidence, that the first man/Adam was spirit first and lowered to flesh?"
Evidence: something that furnishes proof : testimony; specifically : something legally submitted to a tribunal to ascertain the truth of a matter.

Example: 1Co 15:45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,
Became/made G1096 ginomai A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen" -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being),

What I am seeking is a verse that shows/reads evidence that the first man adam was something other, before he was made or came into being as the first man/adam/living creature. I am well aware that God is Spirit and Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
So yes, EVERYTHING is out of or from God.

Molly your points are a matter of interpretation.

eaglesway · « **Reply #14 on:** August 20, 2011, 09:33:38 PM »

Who's to say anything? maybe its all just poetry :o) Really, this is no sacred cow to me. I just lean towards the idea that the Father of my spirit formed my inner parts in my mothers womb, and that an element of my father and an element of my mother combined to create a new, unique individual. So be it. As Jabcat put it so well, unitl we know as we are known, Who Knows?

CHB · « **Reply #15 on:** August 20, 2011, 10:13:22 PM »

There are a few verses that state that God knew such and such a person while in the womb but I don't see one that says we knew him before becoming human. Wouldn't this be something that would substantiate a preexistance?

One could say, of course God knew us while we were in the womb, or before the foundation of the world because he had us all planned as to the how, why, when, and he knew everything about us before we were ever created but did we know him?

I tend to think about Jesus and what he said about being with the Father, hearing the Father, talking to the Father. If we pre-existed before why can't we have some kind of rememberance of the experience, since Jesus did? Why would God keep us from remembering him and what it was like before?

I agree with what Jabcat said, "I'm not dogmatic one way or the other, but I tend to think we pre-existed in some form, even if "just" as some part of God - as everything came from and through Him, if I understand correctly. Then whatever and however He put the pieces together (seed and ova) became "us".

Only in the sense that we were a part of God in some fashion do I see that we pre-existed.

I have been prone to change my mind on many things when proven wrong though.

I just thought of something: We know our physical bodies came from the ground/dirt but our life/breath came from God. God BREATHED into Adam and he BECAME A LIVING SOUL. So, wouldn't the breath of God, whatever it consists of, is who we are and what we were before we became human. Only thing is, was it active without the body?

CHB

micah7:9 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 20, 2011, 10:26:53 PM »

I can and do agree with both eaglesway and you CHB, my only wonder is why would Paul state it as he did, if or should we have been something other first?

There is no denying that ALL things are out and from Him, but all things that are out and from Him, He caused to become something that He had a desire for that something to be. And in this case Paul states the first adam was a living soul.
So I just wonder how we have a teaching that says we "were lowered from a spirit realm to an soulish realm."

sheila · « **Reply #17 on:** August 21, 2011, 12:08:56 AM »

children of light...Genesis 1;14 and God said,'Let there be lights" in the expanse of the sky, and let them 'serve' as SIGNS to mark 'seasons'..

and days and years,and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky,to give light on the earth. God made two great lights...the GREATER LIGHT

to 'govern' the Day..and the lesser light..to 'govern' the night[Christ/greater,law/lesser] HE ALSO MADE THE STARS....God said,that it was good

This is when He created spirit children...to be signs on the earth. See Josephs dream... God promised Abraham ,that He would make his progency

as the stars of heaven and sands of the sea..in number.

....CH 2 THUS THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WERE....COMPLETED......IN......ALL....THEIR....VAST.....ARRAY[arrangement]

BY THE SEVENTH DAY...GOD HAD 'FINISHED" THE WORK HE HAD BEEN DOING, SO..ON THE SEVENTH DAY HE RESTED FROM ALL HIS WORK[the Lamb slain

from the foundations of the earth]............

JOB 32;8 BUT IT IS THE SPIRIT IN A MAN....THE BREATH OF THE ALMIGHTY..THAT GIVES HIM UNDERSTANDING[good/evil exercize]

Isaaih 42;5 This is what God the Lord says- he who created the heavens and stretched them out,who spread out the earth..

and all that comes out of it,WHO GIVES BREATH TO IT'S PEOPLE,AND LIFE TO THOSE WHO WALK ON IT

v 22 But this is a people plundered and looted,all of them trapped in pits or hidden away in prisons,They have become plunder,with

no-one to rescue them,they have been made loot[by adversary] with no-one to say 'SEND THEM BACK"[I am returning to my Father and yours..

you know the way]

WHICH OF YOU WILL LISTEN TO THIS OR PAY CLOSE ATTENTION IN TIME TO COME...

Ch 43 But now, this is what the LORD SAYS, HE WHO CREATED YOU,O'JACOB,He who 'formed" you,O ISRAEL

Fear not,for I have redeemed you...I HAVE SUMMONED YOU BY NAME;YOU ARE MINE

micah7:9 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 21, 2011, 01:17:18 AM »

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.(KJV)

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this in the first place, that all scriptural prophecy is not from any man's own suggestions.
2Pe 1:21 For prophecy in old time came not by the will of man: but the holy men of God spake under the impulse of the Holy Ghost..(1795 Thomas Haweis)

2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from one's own interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For not by the will of man was prophecy ever brought, but men from God spoke, being moved by the Holy Spirit.(NT 1918 Anderson)

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation."
2Pe 1:21 For not by the will of man was prophecy carried on at any time, but, being carried on by holy spirit, holy men of God speak."(CLV)

2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that [the scope of] no prophecy of scripture is had from its own particular interpretation,
2Pe 1:21 for prophecy was not ever uttered by [the] will of man, but holy men of God spake under the power of [the] Holy Spirit.(Darby 1890)

2Pe 1:20 this first knowing, that no prophecy of the Writing doth come of private exposition,
2Pe 1:21 for not by will of man did ever prophecy come, but by the Holy Spirit borne on holy men of God spake.(YLT)

PRIVATE: G2398 idios pertaining to self, that is, one's own; by implication private or separate
INTERPRETATION: G1955 epilusis explanation, that is, application: - interpretation. G1955 epiluō to solve further, that is, (figuratively) to explain, decide: - determine, expound. From G3089 luō A primary verb; to "loosen" (literally or figuratively): - break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-) loose, melt, put off.

This is the understanding the Lord has given me through study and the help of other messengers. Man must not take a verse of scripture and attempt to explains its meaning without that scripture have a witness of at least 2.
Mat 18:16 and if he may not hear, take with thee yet one or two, that by the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may stand.
Rev 11:3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, that they shall prophesy, a thousand two hundred and sixty days, arrayed in sackcloth.
What that reveals to me and should to any one called, with the hope to be chosen, that when any verse of scripture is read, that word needs the witness of 2 or more to establish its validity.
This is my understanding of what Peter was teaching. Should I not be led to find 2 witnesses to confirm my understanding and intrepetation, then it is mine and of no real value.

Molly · « **Reply #19 on:** August 21, 2011, 01:23:16 AM »

Quote from: micah7:9 on August 20, 2011, 09:31:52 PM

"....with evidence, that the first man/Adam was spirit first and lowered to flesh?"
Evidence: something that furnishes proof : testimony; specifically : something legally submitted to a tribunal to ascertain the truth of a matter.

Example: 1Co 15:45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,
Became/made G1096 ginomai A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen" -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being),

What I am seeking is a verse that shows/reads evidence that the first man adam was something other, before he was made or came into being as the first man/adam/living creature. I am well aware that God is Spirit and Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
So yes, EVERYTHING is out of or from God.

Molly your points are a matter of interpretation.

So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL."

I became an auto mechanic. What was I before that? A store clerk.

Seems pretty clear to me, the usage of the language. If you become something, you were something else before.

But it doesn't matter to me how you interpret that, as long as you know this: whatever you do to me, you do to HIM.

eaglesway · « **Reply #20 on:** August 21, 2011, 01:34:00 AM »

Quote from: sheila on August 21, 2011, 12:08:56 AM

children of light...Genesis 1;14 and God said,'Let there be lights" in the expanse of the sky, and let them 'serve' as SIGNS to mark 'seasons'..

and days and years,and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky,to give light on the earth. God made two great lights...the GREATER LIGHT

to 'govern' the Day..and the lesser light..to 'govern' the night[Christ/greater,law/lesser] HE ALSO MADE THE STARS....God said,that it was good

This is when He created spirit children...to be signs on the earth. See Josephs dream... God promised Abraham ,that He would make his progency

as the stars of heaven and sands of the sea..in number.

....CH 2 THUS THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WERE....COMPLETED......IN......ALL....THEIR....VAST.....ARRAY[arrangement]

BY THE SEVENTH DAY...GOD HAD 'FINISHED" THE WORK HE HAD BEEN DOING, SO..ON THE SEVENTH DAY HE RESTED FROM ALL HIS WORK[the Lamb slain

from the foundations of the earth]............

JOB 32;8 BUT IT IS THE SPIRIT IN A MAN....THE BREATH OF THE ALMIGHTY..THAT GIVES HIM UNDERSTANDING[good/evil exercize]

Isaaih 42;5 This is what God the Lord says- he who created the heavens and stretched them out,who spread out the earth..

and all that comes out of it,WHO GIVES BREATH TO IT'S PEOPLE,AND LIFE TO THOSE WHO WALK ON IT

v 22 But this is a people plundered and looted,all of them trapped in pits or hidden away in prisons,They have become plunder,with

no-one to rescue them,they have been made loot[by adversary] with no-one to say 'SEND THEM BACK"[I am returning to my Father and yours..

you know the way]

WHICH OF YOU WILL LISTEN TO THIS OR PAY CLOSE ATTENTION IN TIME TO COME...

Ch 43 But now, this is what the LORD SAYS, HE WHO CREATED YOU,O'JACOB,He who 'formed" you,O ISRAEL

Fear not,for I have redeemed you...I HAVE SUMMONED YOU BY NAME;YOU ARE MINE

Its a plausible view, but there are other plausible conclusions. For instance.... God said "I will make your children as the sand of the sea and the stars of the sky"- not- I HAVE MADE your children......." These promises are as easily statements of God's plan "outworking" from the Logos(original seed/core truth) as they are evidence of pre-existence. That God foreknew us, not that we foreknew Him, or pere-existed with Him, is reasonable. I have seen no conclusive voice that indicates that the creation of the stars for seasons and signs is a testimony of spirit children in "olam" past. Although you state it as if it is an obvious and given fact. "Giving breathe and life to His people" is as much a statement of the work of the spirit in man that is created within him (heart/core being/consciousness/will- soul /emotions/intellect-mind/pneuma/spirit- strength/body FIRST BIRTH)in his mother's womb and the work of the Holy Spirit in His people as they are illumined, begotten from above, born of the spirit, awakened SECOND BIRTH.

However, I could be wrong.... I have been before :o) "Test all things hold fast that which is true." After all, we do see through a glass darkly, yea, all of us ;o)

I do believe we are born, not of the will of man, nor the will of the flesh, but rather of the will of God. Chosen and elect according to His foreknowledge. Predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Priests of God and Sons according to the promise of an inheritance reserved in heaven for all those who overcome- " For if we suffer with Him we shall also reign with Him." "For you have need of endurance so that after you have done the will of God you may receive what was promised." This is the patience of the saints in the light.

(Eph 4:14-18)
As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,

being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;

micah7:9 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 21, 2011, 01:55:55 AM »

I do believe we are born, not of the will of man, nor the will of the flesh, but rather of the will of God. Chosen and elect according to His foreknowledge. Predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Priests of God and Sons according to the promise of an inheritance reserved in heaven for all those who overcome- " For if we suffer with Him we shall also reign with Him." "For you have need of endurance so that after you have done the will of God you may receive what was promised." This is the patience of the saints in the light.

Molly · « **Reply #22 on:** August 21, 2011, 03:40:31 AM »

Quote from: micah7:9 on August 21, 2011, 01:55:55 AM

I do believe we are born, not of the will of man, nor the will of the flesh, but rather of the will of God. Chosen and elect according to His foreknowledge. Predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Priests of God and Sons according to the promise of an inheritance reserved in heaven for all those who overcome- " For if we suffer with Him we shall also reign with Him." "For you have need of endurance so that after you have done the will of God you may receive what was promised." This is the patience of the saints in the light.

WhiteWings · « **Reply #23 on:** August 21, 2011, 08:14:08 AM »

Quote from: Molly on August 21, 2011, 01:23:16 AM

I became an auto mechanic. What was I before that? A store clerk.

Or not born.

Quote

Seems pretty clear to me, the usage of the language. If you become something, you were something else before.

Like not existing.

News:

Author Topic: I Cor. 15:44-49 (Read 576 times)