2 witnesses - 144.000 - 72.000 - 72

[WhiteWings]

Is it correct that there will be 144.000 witnesses send out in 72.000 pairs of 2 witnesses to 72 (Biblical) nations?

[Nathan]

Is it correct that there will be 144.000 witnesses send out in 72.000 pairs of 2 witnesses to 72 (Biblical) nations?

Do you really believe you can send a question of this nature out to the world and expect "one" clear-cut answer?

It's not about 144,000 . . .it's about 12,000 from every tribe . . .it's about 120 being the tithe of that 12,000 . . .it's about spiritual Jews, not literal.  12 = government . . .1,000 = divinity . . .a number multiplied into itself is divine completion of what that number represents.  Nothing is meant to be taken at face value.  It's all spiritually implied, metaphorically illustrated.  This is why "let he that hath an ear hear what the spirit is saying to the churches" is repeated time and again . . .it's all spiritual.

[Cardinal]

Is it correct that there will be 144.000 witnesses send out in 72.000 pairs of 2 witnesses to 72 (Biblical) nations?

Do you really believe you can send a question of this nature out to the world and expect "one" clear-cut answer?

It's not about 144,000 . . .it's about 12,000 from every tribe . . .it's about 120 being the tithe of that 12,000 . . .it's about spiritual Jews, not literal.  12 = government . . .1,000 = divinity . . .a number multiplied into itself is divine completion of what that number represents.  Nothing is meant to be taken at face value.  It's all spiritually implied, metaphorically illustrated.  This is why "let he that hath an ear hear what the spirit is saying to the churches" is repeated time and again . . .it's all spiritual.

  Now that was a good "nutshell" post.... Blessings....

[Redlettervoice]

Blessed are your ears for they "hear" .........I agree, Nathan.
After you "hear" you just can't see it the way people used to
teach you, can you?  Truth has a way of lasting. Enduring,
and strengthening you...God be praised!

[reFORMer]

While I generally agree Nathan, I try it out in other ways too, always seeking to have an open ear.  One thing I figured out a few years ago was if there would come to be 144,000 people walking on the earth as Jesus walked, functioning in an hundredfold anointing...consider them evenly distributed over the whole earth according to population numbers in various countries.  That would put something like 12,000 of them in the USA.  Should that ever occur, things would never be the same again.  Somehow we are looking for something like that to happen, the manifestation of the sons of God, sons being huis, mature inheritors standing in the full right of the family name "Jesus," the name to which all is subject.

[martincisneros]

I'm neither a dispensationalist nor a premillenialist, and my detectives are still at work on the book of Revelation, but I do believe that this brother, at this link, has some valid points about trying to spiritualize what's already spiritual: http://www.martinzender.com/spiritualizing_scripture.htm


Didn't catch myself talking like Yoda before posting this. Weird inverted grammar sometimes.

[martincisneros]

Somehow we are looking for something like that to happen, the manifestation of the sons of God, sons being huis, mature inheritors standing in the full right of the family name "Jesus," the name to which all is subject.

1Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child (i.e. in love), differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. (Galatians 4:1-2)

[WhiteWings]

Is it correct that there will be 144.000 witnesses send out in 72.000 pairs of 2 witnesses to 72 (Biblical) nations?

Do you really believe you can send a question of this nature out to the world and expect "one" clear-cut answer?

Not from you. Why always that: "I have no clue. It must be spiritual attitude?"
I hoped you would overlook this thread. Unfortunately you dumped your poison at the very first reply.

[WhiteWings]

I try it out in other ways too, always seeking to have an open ear.  One thing I figured out a few years ago was if there would come to be 144,000 people walking on the earth as Jesus walked, functioning in an hundredfold anointing...consider them evenly distributed over the whole earth according to population numbers in various countries.  That would put something like 12,000 of them in the USA.  Should that ever occur, things would never be the same again.

The whole Bible is also history book.
Part of it where predictions that are fulfilled literaly. (History now)
Why should the yet unfulfilled part be always spiritually?
Did the 69 weeks of Daniel point to something spirital? Or was there also a real Jesus involved?
But because the 70 jubelee prophecy spoken at the end of the exodus is fulfilled in the past it must be spiritual only?

Weren't the apostles always traveling in pairs? (like witnesses)
Luke 10:1  After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him two by two into every town and place where he himself was about to go.

[martincisneros]

I hoped you would overlook this thread. Unfortunately you dumped your poison at the very first reply.

Genuinely laughing histerically over here, but as I regain my composure over that having perhaps been a tad bit more gruff than genuinely intended, considering cultural differences for a moment.  Everybody please calm down on this thread and don't let this snowball.  There's always room for everybody's input in this kind of setting.

[jabcat]

Weren't the apostles always traveling in pairs? (like witnesses)
Luke 10:1  After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him two by two into every town and place where he himself was about to go.

Very interesting...that's one of things, as Card says, "hidden in plain sight".  Good find, WW.

[jabcat]

Maybe this from J. Preston Eby will be another stone in the wall as we build this thread...the distinction he makes is helpful to me as I try to conceptualize this.  He says,

"It should be obvious to every spiritual mind that the great multitude that no man can number is not the same company as the 144,000 sealed ones that can be numbered. Not that 144,000 is a literal number, but it is the number of divine government ascribed to a select called and chosen company who reign with Christ upon His throne..... Jesus said that to the overcomer it is granted to sit with Him in His throne, even as He overcame and is set down with His Father in His throne (Rev. 3:21; 21:7). Then in chapter twelve the manchild is caught up to God and to His throne and rules the nations with a rod of iron (Rev. 12:5). Later, in chapter fourteen, the 144,000 stand with the Lamb (who is in the midst of the throne) upon mount Zion...

The "great multitude," however, is not "on" the throne — it is "before" the throne of God and the Lamb! Neither do they "rule" or "reign" over anything, but they "serve" God day and night in His temple, and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They are a blessed company indeed! They are very near the throne, and dwell in the light of the throne, and in the presence of Him who sits upon the throne, and receive great and eternal and unspeakable blessings from the throne! They are the vast multitudes of the redeemed out of the age who have walked with God in a pure walk in the Spirit in the measure of light they had. And while they are a redeemed and sanctified and spiritual people, they are not the sons of God who reign with Christ upon His throne (144,000). They have not taken the spiritual steps that cause them to fully grow, mature, and progress all the way into God to become kings and priests. They have not attained unto the measure of the stature of the fullness Christ. Yet, they are the Lord's own people, precious in His eyes!

[Cardinal]

  Yes, that was a good find WW. I never noticed that before, either. It takes everyone looking at this thing, doesn't it? 

So for my  on the topic of spiritualizing (and yes, there'll be lots of that in this post). Anyway; of course, it's both literal AND spiritual; things literally happened. If they didn't, then we would have nothing to stand on. But the literal has a spiritual application, a spiritual message to those upon whom the ends of this age have come.

Angel means message or messages, and all of those spiritual messages are nothing less than angels appearing in our midst with a word that, if faith is mixed with it to receive it, like Mary, we will eventually birth the Son.

As the veil (like the bag of waters around a baby) that IS this literal Word, is being rent for us, we are peeking into spiritual truths that have been hidden for ages and from generations. And HE is glorious!

I just can't afford to listen to anything that speaks from a platform of "over-spiritualizing", quite simply because I need to overcome death. "Spiritualizing" is the nothing more than the revelation of Him being revealed in every possible facet.

If a jewel has one cut, one facet, that is imperfect, the light coming out of it is distorted, even "trapped" within it, and it does not refract the light properly and becomes cloudy and obscure.

Like a jewel being cut, every revelation that is of Him as He is in the NOW (that is NOT literal flesh/Word), cuts away at everything that is not, until eventually we'll see Him as He is, and then we'll be just like Him. That's metamorphosis and I want to be metamorphoed out of this body of death and translated into His, IN THIS LIFE, not the next.

We are NOT to be of those that have no hope of seeing THEIR dead raised.
Their dead = still being dead in sins and trespasses/still under the veil in some part (stillborn, as we all are until we bring Him to birth)...

BUT, we have been shown the hope, Christ (being revealed/birthed as the veil is rent) in us, the hope of glory who is going to raise OUR dead (our dead = having died to self).

If the dead are not raised, then we have no hope. The dead are raised by the veil being rent, and that veil is the understanding of the letter that Moses had, which had a type of glory, but whose glory was being done away with.

The veil must done away with, ie. the literal understanding has to fall (not to be cast away but to be the foundation rock) in favor of the understanding given by revelation of the Spirit, for it is the SPIRIT that IS Christ, that is being revealed.

And as long as THIS tabernacle/veil is yet standing, the new will not manifest. Blessings...

PS. Martin, I want to make it clear I am not speaking about YOU, I consider you a great blessing to the body, but I did borrow the term "over-spiritualizing" from your post. I am speaking in generalities in reference to any message about that.

[WhiteWings]

"It should be obvious to every spiritual mind that the great multitude that no man can number is not the same company as the 144,000 sealed ones that can be numbered. Not that 144,000 is a literal number, but it is the number of divine government ascribed to a select called and chosen company who reign with Christ upon His throne

Sure 12 is a special number. It's not just luck there are 12 tribes, 12 apostles, 12 leptons, 12 quarks, 12 Fermions, 12 Bosons.
And most of them go in groups of 2.


Spiritual meaning. But also real touchable things.
7 also such a number. Spiritual meaning. But if you look between the timespan of many events an prophesies you see 7 popping up in real historical dates.

..... Jesus said that to the overcomer it is granted to sit with Him in His throne,

What is 'the'? Every overcomer or a selection from it?
Verses seems to indicate a selection.
Firstly ofcourse the "before the throne" people.

This verse cuts down the numbers also:
Revelation 14:4  These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The next verses are less direct.
Revelation 7:1  And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
=> Here we have 4 angels positioned in the north, east, south, west restraining the winds.

Revelation 7:2  And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
=> No the focus is on the angel in the east.
=> This angel that restrains the wind makes a request to other angels that have a 'job of wrath'
=> Note that there are only 4 angels restraining the wind. A fifth is speaking. In the east

Revelation 7:3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
=> I think it's safe to assume 'the servants' are the 144.000
=> After the sealing the winds are no longer restrained I guess.

But why only the angel in the east asked the other 4 angels to wait until the sealing was done?
Was the only sealing be done in the east? Meaning 144.000 being in the east. What we find in the east?
I think it's kinda sure muslims aren't sealed. So what about Israel?
Are the 144.000 all Isrealites or others that are in Israel at that moment?

[WhiteWings]

Yes, that was a good find WW. I never noticed that before, either. It takes everyone looking at this thing, doesn't it? 

So for my  on the topic of spiritualizing (and yes, there'll be lots of that in this post).

That's my fear.

Anyway; of course, it's both literal AND spiritual; things literally happened. If they didn't, then we would have nothing to stand on. But the literal has a spiritual application, a spiritual message to those upon whom the ends of this age have come.

The red part is exactly my point.
I know of myself I do understand only a very small part of the spiritual things in the Bible. I never claimed otherwise.
But I doubt that those who don't understand literal things understand the spiritual things. (that diffrent from think they understand)
Can the spiritual things be understood if you don't even understand the literal things? As you wrote Cardinal a foundation.
The Bible can be used as a history book. I aligns perfectly with archeology. Not always but alteron archeolist changed their views and aligned with the Bible.
Weren't all events and fulfilled prophesies really 100% literal.
Note: that I'm not saying that inside/below those literal thing are not a number of spiritual layers hidden.
Back to Cardinals foundation (war paint for some women )
The written word itself is also a foundation. I mean that literal. Paper and inkt.
We all know what happens if that goes wrong. Doctrines (spritual) build on the wrong foundation of 'for ever' 'fire' 'hell'
Were animal sacrifices real? Yes. Did they have a spiritual meaning? Yes. Was it ok for God if no sacrifice was made and people really thought about the spirutal part? No.
When God was dictating all kind of detailed measurement for things His people should build was He speaking about spiritual things too? Yes. Was it ok if the Jews build it the way that they liked it? No.
So perhaps God not everything is spiritual afteral....

[Cardinal]

  WW, you make some very good points. No, you can't understand the spiritual without understanding the literal Word. You have to get the foundation in you first. I understand your frustration with some of us and our posts, but I just want to encourage you, that you are doing exactly what you're supposed to do right now. Blessings to you...

[Zeek]

WW, you make some very good points. No, you can't understand the spiritual without understanding the literal Word. You have to get the foundation in you first. I understand your frustration with some of us and our posts, but I just want to encourage you, that you are doing exactly what you're supposed to do right now. Blessings to you...

does the spiritual, have any truth to it??  what i mean by that; is so many here see the spiritual, yet don't see the same thing.  i find that amazing.  sometimes i think the true "spiritual" is like what sparrow so efficiently does in her posts is convey;

God is love.  He has his best interest for you.  Trust Him.  If the word doesn't make sense based on this, who cares;

HE IS LOVE.

[Redlettervoice]

Zeek, the "word" is multiple faceted even to one person.  Like
taking off the layers of an onion peel to me.  I have been studying
for years and yet I saw something last week that I'd never seen
before.  Now that I have seen it, I find it's all over the Bible. 
How did I ever miss that?  God allowed me to. So just because
people see different aspects at different times, it is like the Bible
itself, it is NOT written chronologically.  And it does take the
Spirit to speak the RAYMA of it to us.  Otherwise all we have is
letter.  But if you fill your waterpot up enough with the "water"
of the Word, the day comes when Jesus turns that "water" into
wine.

Concerning the numbers, now "I" have a question.  I know you
all know that Elijah when he thought he was "alone" had God
to tell him, "no, you're not the only one."  "I have a remnant
of 7,000 that have not bowed to Baal.  Now my question is
this: Where in the scripture are those 7,000 mentioned again?
They have got to stand for remnant but is there any other
reference?

How many times would you have to multiply 7,000 to get a
certain number? say for instance, the 144,000?

Cardinal?

Anyone?

[Cardinal]

  Exactly, Red.......every rhema Word I've ever had was like that. You think, how did I not see it? But as you said, it's all in His timing. He is the Lord of the harvest.

As for the 7000, all He's given me on that is the 7th day obviously is the 7th 1000 year day, so therefore it's 7000. Perfection (7) times the mark of the Spirit (10 X 10 X 10, dimension of Holy of Holies) = 7000. Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

WW, you make some very good points. No, you can't understand the spiritual without understanding the literal Word. You have to get the foundation in you first. I understand your frustration with some of us and our posts, but I just want to encourage you, that you are doing exactly what you're supposed to do right now. Blessings to you...

I have no frustration about unable to understand things. If I was I would have very bad life because I don't have a masters degree in every profession...

My frustration is that everything gets bent to spiritual when that wasn't the question. I clearly asked about the numbers.
Now there is no harm in pointing out 144,000=12*12,000 if that's part of the puzzle.
I choose to ignore long ago. But such a frontal attack....well lets say I don't have that forgiving spirit of Jesus....

[reFORMer]

Cardinal, just to let you know...I really am blessed by your reply #12.
also...
Not just 7000; but, adding Jesus' life into it, 7033, which is a very significant number.

[WhiteWings]

Back to carnal business now.....

Luke 10:1  After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him two by two into every town and place where he himself was about to go.

Note: I'm comparing not stating they are the same...

72 is 144000
2 by 2 = 2 witnesses
into every town = every Biblical nation (72)
where he himself= ????

The green part seems obvious. Jesus. But the 144.000 are starting way before Jesus.
Plus are there a 'special 2 witnesses' The two that can do miracles a die? (only 2 witnesses are reported to die)

The blue part.... about the Ark.
Genesis 7:9  There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

Kinda long shot but what if I say the animals enter 2 by 2 to receive salvation
The witnesses go out 2 by to bring salvation

Genesis 7:2  Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

The weird thing is that the witnesses are clean and the  beast that go in 2 by 2 are unclean...


Finally what exactly is a witness.
Someone that spreads the Word of God I would say.
But when the GWT takes place people are judged. And in a courtroom there are witnesses.....

[Cardinal]

Cardinal, just to let you know...I really am blessed by your reply #12.
also...
Not just 7000; but, adding Jesus' life into it, 7033, which is a very significant number.

  Great So what have you seen about 7033? Blessings....

[Cardinal]

  WW, I'm just going to touch on the witness part of your post, with a few thoughts.

*Two is the number of witness in God's master plan.

*The core principle of witness is agreement; 2 agree on something.

*It takes 2 to make a covenant.

*It takes 2 witnesses to convict anyone in God's court system.

*The creation and the natural Word are the same; both are witnesses for His Spirit from which everything originated from, ie. the Word that is Spirit. This is why the Word says in that day they shall have no excuse; because all the heavens (natural realm is a "heaven" too) declare or show openly, His glory/nature and principles.
They are as His "wife"/helpmeet; they witness/agree with what is Eternal, and because they came out of or were created out of His Spirit, as Eve was brought out of Adam.

*There were 2 tablets of stone (half dealing with relationship with God, half dealing with man's relationship to man)

*There are 2 "stones" on men. If the priests had a broken "stone", they were disqualified from service.

*Jesus said the fulfillment of the law (both tablets of stones) were that we love God and our neighbor as ourselves; in these TWO, are all the 10 fulfilled. The Spirit of God is what makes that possible, by giving us a heart of (celestial) flesh, ie. Christ IN us, the hope of glory. Blessings....

[reFORMer]

face to face...witness

A N D . . .

biologically

2 indicates reproduction of higher forms of life which can be called mutiplication

when "made of the twain one," 2=1, then 1x1=3

2 become 1
3 in 1
4=1 world
5=1 work of grace
6 (?)
7=1 complete set