willieH: Hi Seth...
Above you state this: "I think the word is clear that we should obey the laws and respect authority as long as it does not conflict with us obeying God" -- though I agree with your "thinking"... Where does it state this, Seth? Where does it say we must OBEY the laws --- "as long as it does not conflict with us OBEYING God"?
Well, in Romans 13:1-7 it talks about being in submission to governing authorities, "because the magistrates are not a fear to the good act." And God establishes himself as a God of order 1 Corinthians 14:33.
Maybe I ain't "gettin' it"... but, ...Again you have not answered my question, bro! Where is it noted "as long as it does not conflict with us obeying God?"
If you are actually reading my words, then you know that I am quite well aquainted with Rom 13
, for I have quoted it several times (it's one of my favorite verses concerning sovereignty).
However, I think you are reading this passage in the LETTER... not the SPIRIT. We are instructed to submit to the laws of society, for they (in theory) result in harmonious living. As in --- If ALL of us observed the speed limits, there would be LESS accidents, as well as LESS serverity in those accidents...
What about "LAWS" that tax
the POOR who have nothing to begin with, and allow the RICH, "tax shelters", that they may INDULGE themselves even MORE LAVISHLY?
How about the "beaut" that USA -- "LAW making MAGISTRATES" -- gave GEICO to save their company, and the executives of GEICO handed out LARGE BONUSES to other EXECUTIVES?
I do not argue against Rom 13
, matter of fact -- the FIRST verse tells it ALL... for it notes that ALL POWER
is OF GOD.
Meaning that NO
POWER that is exercised by ANYONE
, has a root, other than in Him. And it is HE
which has INVESTED varying degrees of HIS POWER
in His creatures.
Many would review the "Pharaoh vs Moses" confrontation, and note that Moses was God's representative... however, that is not TRUE! BOTH of these men were raised by GOD to do what they DID. Even though Pharaoh was doing EVIL... it was GOD who was behind the whole thing, which ended up MAGNIFYING GOOD, as the EVIL could not (and never will) withstand -- GOOD.
So you in your abstinance
, and me in my using
, are simply employing the POWER of choice, which was GIVEN to each of us by GOD (with FOREKNOWLEDGE as to what we would "choose" to do with it)... and which will also probably end up being as surprising -- as the "Pharaoh -vs- Moses" thing...
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Not sure of the applicability of these verses, but I am a "PEACE
" fan, and love both, thanks for offering them!
If a believer is smoking pot and therefore willfully breaking the laws of the "magistrates" who govern the land they inhabit (even being strangers in a strange land) and it compromises that peace through lack of submission to that which does not compromise the evangel. How can the the peace of the Lord shine to the world when believers get arrested and punished by that same world-system who those believers ought to be witnessing the Gospel to
Are you sure you
OBEY every LAW, Seth? Do you EVER drive faster than the speed limit? By your own admission, YOU have WILLINGLY
smoked pot. Was it in a scenario that was LEGAL? Did that event (you smoking illegally), alter anything that was MEANT to BE? And if it were MEANT to be otherwise, ...then why did GOD not intervene?
Strangers in a strange land is one of my favorite novels! (just thought I'd throw that in!)
The "magistrates" you so staunchly support, are busily manipulating the BUDGETS they are manipulating in their offices, which are taking money out of your pockets, to line their own
The NAZI's had rulership over Germany... do you think it was SPIRITUALLY right for the population to SUPPORT these murderers
Seth? Do you think that those who OPPOSED the NAZI's as they ruthlessly scoured their neighbors, raping, pillaging and murdering -- were DISOBEYING GOD? --- In this instance, I think you observe the LETTER of Rom 13
, failing to recognize that just because one is IN POWER, does not mean he/she is to be followed into the DITCH.
The Pharisees were leaders... were they not? What did CHRIST
have to say to them about their "leadership"? And did CHRIST
defy that leadership Seth? Did He not note them to be HARMFUL to the sheep? As they WILLINGLY "sat in the best seats" and "dressed in the best attire", all at the EXPENSE of their poor followers?
How about following JESUS
-- were the JEWS who became followers of CHRIST
and GRACE, and thereby breaking MANY of the LAWS which were noted as BURDENSOME... now deduced as DISOBEYING GOD?
How far will you take this LITERAL observation, bro?
What about the LEADERS of the church bro? Are we to drop our belief in UR, to follow the RELIGIOUSLY educated charletons? Will you drop your observation of the Gospel, and adopt the larger leadership's version of the "gospel"? Say, the snazzy
ORAL ROBERTS or JOEL OSTEEN versions?
There is a lot that can be said of POWER and of LAW and of those who supposedly LEAD and institute "LAWS"... but getting back to basics...
Where in the LAW of LIBERTY is marijuana found debased?
The very same corrupt bunch of politicians allows NICOTINE to be sold as a LEGAL product (which IS ADDICTIVE
and DOES cause CANCER & HEART DISEASE
), are making "LAWS" against the legality of marijuana which does no such thing. Are you a supporter of their "LAWFUL" mandate to SELL CIGARETTES? Is there not CORRUPTION in allowing ADDICTIVE substances to be sold, and DISALLOWING -- UNADDICTIVE substances?
Would God want us to sacrifice that peace with all men in order to use pot for one's own spiritual growth?
Where do you get this Seth?
How is PEACE
"sacrificed" by marijuana use? How is spiritual growth denied by its use? Don't you see that you are INSISTING we all look at this "gray area" with your
manner of SHADING?
And that is why I think Paul says to be in submission to the governing authority in matters which DO NO conflict with God's evangel.
Why did you not quote the Scripture upon which you found this? Hey, I ALWAYS want to learn!
Where did Paul state this brother?
Oh really? This statement is essentially "splitting hairs" bro...
"Technically" according to WHO?
I was talking about according to the definition of "drug."
Well, all a "definition" is, is a historical account of the applicational usage of a given word... Definitions are changing all the time. GAY once meant "happy"... is that what it commonly means today?
That some governmental agency calls an HERB that God created, a DRUG, does not mean that it is a DRUG...
Is SUGAR "technically" a DRUG, Seth? If it IS (for it is "known" that it can and does damage to the body, and does AFFECT the mind), why do the sources (you probably refer to) that determine marijuana to be a "DRUG", not set LAWS and REGULATIONS concerning SUGAR?
I am not sure if the FDA qualifies sugar as a drug or not. But according to the "technical" definitions of what a drug is, pot is definitely a drug. However a "drug" not necessarily a bad thing.
You accept that marijuana is a DRUG... I do not. It is an herb. Which is as it IS, just as GOD created and GAVE it to man -- Gen 1:29
The FDA is not the defining agency for GOD or that which HE CREATED... HE gave ALL
to MAN -- Gen 1:29 Matt 19:6
-- [a principle] "...what GOD hath joined together, let NOT MAN put assunder"
GOD gave me marijuana... MAN endeavors with his "LAWS" endeavors to take it away...
Irregardless of the FDA "determination" to categorize marijuana as a DRUG, and SUGAR as a FOOD, this "determination" is debatable. For BOTH can be EATEN...
1 a obsolete : a substance used in dyeing or chemical operations b : a substance used as a medication or in the preparation of medication c according to the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (1) : a substance recognized in an official pharmacopoeia or formulary (2) : a substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease (3) : a substance other than food intended to affect the structure or function of the body (4) : a substance intended for use as a component of a medicine but not a device or a component, part, or accessory of a device
2 : a commodity that is not salable or for which there is no demand —used in the phrase drug on the market
3 : something and often an illegal substance that causes addiction, habituation, or a marked change in consciousness
There are MANY, MANY herbal "medicines"... which are NOT manufactured -- my wife works (part time) for an osteopath, who uses herbal remedies which often WORK BETTER than any prescription "DRUG"...
Marijuana in its NATURAL state, is an herb which is helpful in the LEGAL treatment of GLAUCOMA (eye disease)... so it helps one to -- SEE -- as well as helpful and useful in pain management.
The GLAUCOMA victim still experiences the SAME affects as do I, in using marijuana. So in treating his disease which inhibits his SIGHT, ...he is ending up affected by the marijuana LEGALLY, and I am not? What kind of DOUBLE-TALK is this?
If they LEGALIZE marijuana tomorrow... what then Seth? Will I be found SINNING in your eyes, even though I now have the LEGAL right to it? Think about it.
That is 2 faces of GOVERNMENT in action, which btw, is continually quite CORRUPT in most cases... actively STEALING from us to make themselves richer by CHANGING TAX LAWS to benefit themselves... all the while, putting me in JAIL for the SAME thing a GLAUCOMA victim is doing? Simply because I do not have a PRESCRIPTION from a doctor, for it. What HYPOCRISY is this? It is LEGAL in one instance and not another, or "as long as THEY say so"?
You are welcome to argue this Seth... but mark my words... you will find out that your position on marijuana is NOT spiritually OR Biblically supported, nor should be pointed toward ANYONE other than YOURSELF. (which is what Rom 14:14
endeavors to convey to us all.)