#2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?

[Molly]

What? WHAT?!? I'm sorry, but I might be the biggest libertarian on the forum. (Can't say for sure.) And this just about makes my blood boil. (Nothing personal Molly.) I just can't stand the "It may hurt people, so it should me illegal." mentality. I am a big believer in personal responsibility. Meaning I'm not looking to other men, or the government to be responsible for my safety.

I can see your point but with so many things, people believe if they are allowed to sell this stuff, surely it can't be harmful.  Then it turns out to be deadly.  Like cigarettes.  I'm sure nobody thought they were harmful back in the day of the Marlboro man.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi bro Seth...  

This STILL does not answer the question...  I did not ask you if marijuana was "sinful" in general, nor about legalities...

I asked you... that if an ANNOINTED message comes forth and marijuana is involved... what do have to say of this?  

Does this answer mean that I can write ANNOINTED message or song, or edify God and use marijuana while doing this, ONLY if I live in a country that it is LEGAL?  

Sorry, I didn't realize your question was concerning legality, just whether I thought use of pot was sinful in that specific case regardless of legality. So, I thought I was answering that question.

Actually, I did not introduce the thought of "legality or illegality" of marijuana at all...    So I do not understand why you would think to answer this issue?

You can write an annointed song and edify God without using pot since God is not confined to pot use to enable a person to do that. That being the case, then I would say yes, to your question.

I completely agree bro... and have written MANY songs WITHOUT using marijuana... My point is that using marijuana does not INHIBIT God from investing Himself in the song or message written and/or presented to others...  

The obvious exception would be if someone says that the status of pot as an illegal substance hinders their obedience to God. In that case however, one would be admitting that edification, spiritual revelation and obedience to God is DEPENDANT on physical substances rather than simply "worshipping in spirit and in truth."

Come on bro... you are reaching!  I have never suggested that using marijuana is NECESSARY for God to invest Himself... nor does the WORD comment upon this one way or the other.  Actually, HE created marijuana with the chemical properties that it has... and HE NEVER creates ANYTHING that has NO PURPOSE, within it... so what do YOU THINK is the PURPOSE of marijuana, and of its "chemical makeup"?

I am (in presenting this thread) about dispensing another MYTH within the teachings of  Christianity... and thus far, you have said little in support of this MYTH, with the EXCEPTION of your OWN THINKING on the matter...

You have raised another question, that I would like to ask you...  

Is it your position that one using marijuana, cannot WORSHIP God "in Spirit and in Truth"?

If Spirit and truth are not sufficient enough to edify God and gain spiritual revelation to the full maximum without pot use for a person, then I am sure the person could justify breaking the law to make those spiritual gains.

More of your own deductions, based upon your OWN THINKING...  This is kin to saying, that if I am RAIN-SOAKED WET, and ANNOINTING falls upon my words... that being DRY shall never avail the same ANNOINTING, for I was WET when the ANNOINTING was manifest!  Please, bro...

This would mean that GOD is confined to ANNOINTING on the [PHYSICAL] geographical location, and is further confined to the Administration of MANS LAW... not His...

Well, since God is not confined to pot use to enable his anointing, then you obeying the laws to not use it would not confine him in any way. Unless one were to think God needs a person to smoke something to let his anointing loose. That in itself would be confining.

You argue from a position of intelligence, but continually you have no Scriptural basis for that "intelligent" argument, so it thereby fails.

Let us for a moment, refer to the ministry of CHRIST, and obedience to "LAW"...

He was considered a CRIMINAL by the JEWS... which is WHY they had Him ARRESTED...  He was (as far as their LIMITED observation took them), in VIOLATION of the LAW of GOD...  Does this mean that CHRIST was a LAWBREAKER?  After all, He DID do things on the SABBATH, that the LAW "condemned"!!!

Btw... Just curious (and no offense toward you intended, "learning" intended toward you), ...do you KNOW, why CHRIST healing on the SABBATH, and picking corn on the SABBATH and such, was in the SPIRIT --- NOT --- a violation of the LAW, Seth?  The JEWS had no SPIRITUAL INSIGHT concerning the SABBATH, ...do you?

No offense bro, but this is an evasive answer as well...  Please note what YOU consider to be the -- "LIVING WORD", and (if NOT the BIBLE) --  WHERE is this "WORD" found?  

Jesus Christ. And that Word is found in his temple which is his people.

   Hmmmm --- So are you "saying in this statement" --- that YOUR THOUGHTS which are NOT mentioned and SUPPORTED in the WRITTEN WORD, are "His WORD" as well?  And are TRUTH because these "thoughts" LIVE in YOU?

I look forward to your reply to this...

It appears you rely upon SPIRITUAL revelation, which is OUTSIDE the WRITTEN WORD...

That is your choice.  To me, this is either the practice of ADDITION or SUBTRACTION of the WRITTEN WORD...

As always, it is not my intention to change or convince you in any way.  Your life and the conduct within it, is an issue between you and God.  

Like I said, we can agree to disagree, however I am not talking about having revelation outside the written word. If the written word does not call out marijuana SPECIFICALLY, the Holy Spirit leads me to know that pot use in MY case causes a lack of sobriety that He means me to have, by which it becomes sinful behavior FOR ME (speaking individually). And such leading against behaviors which causes a lack of sober living IN ME is of course hardly a new revelation contrary to the written word.

Good enough... Then your answer to the OP question would be something like this:  "concerning -- ME, the use of marijuana is SINFUL"...  

If that coincides with what is in your mind, then I can dig it!    

It is okay for one to abstain from things that they consider SIN unto themselves.  What is WRONG, and unsupported in Scripture, is to take those PERSONAL CONVICTIONS, and deduce another with them (your convictions) as a MEASURE of others. (i.e. -- you don't use marijuana, but if God is leading willieH to use it, it is all right with you  )

And this is done by the REVELATION which is availed in the WRITTEN WORD.  If "revelation" is found OUTSIDE the WORD, then it is in question.  For we can "play" with this or that, and then say that GOD revealed something which was not founded in what we KNOW is His WORD.  This is where CULT RELIGION is born.  A messenger says he/she has revelation... and does not found this revelation in the WORD of YHVH...

The Spirit leading one in righteousness is NOT contrary to the written Word. And, as I have noted, I did not make a general rule FOR YOU. Only that if any BEHAVIOR causes one to act AGAINST the conduct of righteousness underlined in the written word and moved upon by the Spirit, then it becomes sinful behavior.

Boy... have we boarded the "agreement train" or what?    This has been my WHOLE POINT!  

Marijuana, is NOT Scripturally denounced.  Only by MEN, is it assigned as TABOO!

The "exception" bro... is the conscience.  If you esteem marijuana use to be sinful, then it is sinful to YOU.  And this measure is personal.  Not to be imposed upon another. -- Rom 14:14

And the reason I esteem pot use to be sinful TO ME is because the Spirit guides me to know that it was a causal factor FOR ME in not living soberly according to the standard of righteousness that the written word commands and that the Spirit guides in fulfilling.

You have already admitted that the thing you shunned was IMPURE THOUGHTS, which occured both before and after using marijuana... so the CAUSE was present WITHOUT the marijuana eh?  Therefore the CAUSE is NOT the marijuana (even though in your case it may have escalated this thinking)...  Something like --- a FIRE which is burning a pile of wood -- GROWS -- as you pour some GAS on it...  The GAS was NOT the cause of the FIRE, for the FIRE was burning PRIOR to the GAS being thrown upon it.   

Stay where you are concerning this brother Seth... you have much life ahead of you to learn... and in that life, you will find that as you step into your years... there shall be "understandings" which you now hold, which you shall abandon.  Life is a process... and you are in the youth of your process.  You have yet to step upon the stones of time that I have already traversed.

That does not mean that I am right and you are wrong.  What it means is that both of us must be seeking REVELATION from God IN HIS WORD, instead of depending upon ourselves, and our "feelings"

The written word is much like the Constitution. It is the LETTER. Yet there is a judge who interprets the words, and that judge is not me but "Christ in me the hope of glory."

The "LETTER" is the vision of the WORD of God, WITHOUT the SPIRIT revealing WHAT it TRULY says...

The "SPIRIT" is much more than a "deliverer" brother.  The SPIRIT of YHVH is ALL encompassing, and about WORKING ALL THINGS, part of which is "deliverance".  

Brother, i didn't say that the spirit is ONLY a deliverer.

Here is what YOU SAID:

As I said, the Spirit is for deliverance from sin. That is why it was provided for us.

This statement appears CONFINING to me... Had you said "one of the things of the SPIRIT is for deliverance from sin" --- then it would've been more OPEN sounding.  You followed that statement with -- "THAT is why it was provided for us" -- which again CLOSES the SPIRIT in, encasing it with the word -- "THAT"

There is no basis for this.  I repeat my question which you have evaded several times... When EDIFICATION and SPIRITUAL REVELATION is found in a message which is delivered by one using marijuana... shall you disregard that because marijuana was in use?

Brother, you asked me how I would determine misuse. I just gave you the answer. The question you asked just NOW, I see as a different question, not regarding what my standard of misuse is but whether I would disregard edification if pot were in use at the time. I would not disregard edification and spiritual revelation just because someone is using pot while doing it, and neither would I credit pot as needful for that.

C'mon Seth... My question has been quoted by me several times... and plainly you did not answer it.  Must I RETRACE all the instances?  

Did you really say this, Seth?  

The LAW of LIBERTY is the LAW of GOD... pretty plainly noted in James.  That "law" does not discuss marijuana.  

It is your Unscriptural opinion that MARIJUANA is an "ENSLAVING" entity.  Just as you might argue that ALCOHOL is an "ENSLAVING" entity.  And therefore bunch these 2 together and come up with SIN.

The law of liberty discusses "liberty" and behavior (in this case use of pot for ME in MY case) which can BECOME an enslaving entity, is behavior that works against that liberty.

Okay bro, MORE POINTED ---> WHAT do you consider the "LAW of LIBERTY"?  Is it OTHER than the "LAW of GOD"?  And if this is in fact, your perception (LAW of GOD=LAW of LIBERTY), then WHERE in the LAW of God is marijuana discussed as OTHER than "LIBERTY"?

It is the UNSUBMITTED and mischoosing, misled, mind and heart that ENSLAVES, not the substances of marijuana and alcohol.  For the HEART by nature is DESPARATELY WICKED -- Jer 17:9

Looks like it.  

Yep!

Everyone has different experiences I suppose.

Yes... but the LAW and WORD of God is applicable to ALL... and is noted SPIRITUALLY in the WRITTEN WORD...

In our "varying experiences"... is the LAW applied TO US.

I do not argue against your testimony Seth.  I believe you when you say that marijuana contributes to this dilemma.  However, the fact that you had this same thing (impure thinking) PRIOR or ASIDE from marijuana use, exposes that as a "SOBER" problem as well...  

Are you talking about the ROOT problem. Yet, the branches of a tree are just as much part of the tree as the root, just as physical chains can be an entrapment as the person who tied the person down. I agree bro, pot is not the ROOT problem, but a tree is more than its root. I am saying that for me pot was a negative influence making my mind leading to a lack of sobriety. The slave owner is the carnal mind, and the chains are the substances ranging from eating food to consuming alcohol to smoking pot in each individual case whether legal or illegal. Those actions are not sinful if they do not cause slavery to ungodliness, but they are sinful actions if they do.

Again... apply the measure to yourself only... and THAT is my point in this thread. Marijuana use is NOT condemned in the WORD, no more that FOOD or ALCOHOL is... however, EXCESSIVE use is the principle that we must apply when and if we EAT, DRINK or consume a plant which GOD made...  

Thanks for your honesty... this further cements that marijuana is not the "cause" for both before and after use,  (aside from marijuana) you have had this same problem occur...  Learn about yourself bro... there is no shame in learning.

You cannot blame marijuana for IMPURE thinking, for its experience has occured aside from use.  The IMPURE thinking, is prompting from the FLESH, whether or not marijuana is used.

And pot and other substances work in the flesh to CAUSE impure thoughts. A causal factor does not indicate the root issue, nor was it my intention to suggest it was.

You are welcome to maintain this observation Seth... however, it is nothing more than the "devil MADE ME DO IT" defense.

In the end... God did not blame EVE, nor Adam, nor the Serpent and stop there... He gave them ALL what they had coming, for they ALL conspired to manifest the disobedience.

As Eve blamed the "serpent" and Adam blamed "eve"... God disregarded these attempts at defending what was an INDIVIDUAL accountability.

In this SAME WAY... the IMPURE THINKING is not CAUSED by marijuana in you... for it was manifest apart from marijuana... the FLESH is the CAUSE of those thoughts... and for YOU, marijuana ENHANCED those thoughts.

What I have been saying all along, is that "marijuana" ENHANCES... for me, in a GOOD WAY, for you in a BAD WAY...

So marijuana is neither GOOD nor EVIL... it is something just as ANTHING ELSE, that can manifest as an individual GOOD or EVIL thing.  

Paul noting to take a LITTLE wine for the stomach, was not inferring to drink the whole bottle... rather to ENJOY a little of it, and the beneficial elements within the wine, would  therein be manifest...

However, if EXCESS is applied, where such as -- WINE, FOOD, or MARIJUANA is used, then UNBENEFICIAL things will likely manifest...  

...willieH  

[Molly]

Exodus 30:9
Ye shall offer no strange incense thereon, nor burnt sacrifice, nor meat offering; neither shall ye pour drink offering thereon.


Could this apply?

  It applies to everything.........gonna be a long one, bear with me.

Strange = that which is not ordered by God to fulfill His purpose. Strange there means loathsome of BREATH, stranger, enemy, harlot woman, to alienate.

Strange incense = unrighteous prayers thru the MIND (only Christ is righteous and we pray according to His perfect will or let the upright Spirit pray thru us)

Strange burnt sacrifice = a sacrifice is that which is given by the WILL of man, not ordered by God, such as thinking that we are supposed to STAY in sickness as a "sacrifice". MANY are the afflictions of the righteous, BUT the Lord God delivers them out of them ALL (sooner or later as we keep pressing in).

Strange meat offering = meat there means to apportion or bestow. He apportioned Himself in the inner court baptism of the Spirit so that we could walk in His nature, displaying His fruits and these fruits are as His EMOTIONS, ie. kindness, meekness, ect. When we display things not on that list of the fruit of the Spirit to others, we are offering up that thing to HIM in them, which is why it says whatever you have done to the least of them, you've done unto Me.

Strange drink offering = the word drink there means to pour out, cast metal images, to anoint a king. Jesus poured out the money of the money changers, which is when He deals with our DESIRES, as the love of money (self gain) is the root of all evil. It is the "golden calf" of the heart, ie. the best (gold) carnal man (beast of burden/works of the flesh) has to offer.  

Eve DESIRED the fruit because it looked good and to make her wise. This is where He deals with the motive of the heart, EVEN FOR WHY WE WANT TO SERVE HIM. Five fold, would you still serve Him if it was only you and Him and no one else ever knew your name, thought you "righteous", or paid you to do THEIR sacrifices?

In the "curse" spoke to Eve, God told her He would turn her desire to her husband. Desire there means longing or craving and comes from a root word that means to stretch out after, to give abundance to, to overflow.

Eve, our soul, stretches out or reaches for after that which is NOT EXPEDIENT. The law is the ministration of condemnation, ie. it carries a curse with it for disobedience, that being death. By reaching out in this fashion, our iniquity is INCREASED, instead of what John said we must do, ie. decrease so the He can increase. I'm not going to go there now, but iniquity it was said, was FOUND. One of the meanings of that word "found" there is, TO PRESENT AN OFFERING.

It wasn't "found" as if it was a "surprise" to God, because He is the one who lowered us into the bondage of corruption to begin with, and He knew what was in the man He had created. He knew that the Satanic nature within carnal man would always reach for (and thereby present as an offering to Him IN MAN) that which is not expedient and brings death, for the thief cometh not but to kill, steal and destroy. Eve gave Adam the fruit and he did eat. The word "gave" there also means to stretch out, consecrate or devote (as for an OFFERING).

In short, this is why all four portions of our soul (mind, will, emotions, and desires) must go on the altar of God and be consumed with fire, and this is our reasonable service (as priests) to make of ourselves a LIVING sacrifice, ie. offering, a living soul or soul that was given life. We were MADE to be an offering, and in return for giving all that we are, He gives us all that He is. Blessings....  

 

That is beautiful!  This is a keeper.  Thanks, Cardinal.

[jabcat]

That is beautiful!  This is a keeper.  Thanks, Cardinal.

   

[Seth]

Actually, I did not introduce the thought of "legality or illegality" of marijuana at all...    So I do not understand why you would think to answer this issue?

You ended the question with: "ONLY if I live in a country that it is LEGAL?"

I completely agree bro... and have written MANY songs WITHOUT using marijuana... My point is that using marijuana does not INHIBIT God from investing Himself in the song or message written and/or presented to others...  

I agree, as nothing can inhibit God when he wants something done.

Come on bro... you are reaching!  I have never suggested that using marijuana is NECESSARY for God to invest Himself... nor does the WORD comment upon this one way or the other.  Actually, HE created marijuana with the chemical properties that it has... and HE NEVER creates ANYTHING that has NO PURPOSE, within it... so what do YOU THINK is the PURPOSE of marijuana, and of its "chemical makeup"?

I wasn't suggesting that YOU were making that suggestion. But I could see how someone might use that as justification to engage in unlawful activity. Sorry bro, never meant to suggest that YOU were making that case.  

Is it your position that one using marijuana, cannot WORSHIP God "in Spirit and in Truth"?

Nope not at all.

More of your own deductions, based upon your OWN THINKING...  This is kin to saying, that if I am RAIN-SOAKED WET, and ANNOINTING falls upon my words... that being DRY shall never avail the same ANNOINTING, for I was WET when the ANNOINTING was manifest!  Please, bro...

Actually that example does not kin to what I was saying. What I was saying is that IF someone says that they cannot receive anointing WITHOUT the substance, I can see why they would use that to justify going against the law to use pot, when in fact, lack of pot use does NOT inhibit God. Again, not to suggest that you are saying it does..

You argue from a position of intelligence, but continually you have no Scriptural basis for that "intelligent" argument, so it thereby fails.

Let us for a moment, refer to the ministry of CHRIST, and obedience to "LAW"...

He was considered a CRIMINAL by the JEWS... which is WHY they had Him ARRESTED...  He was (as far as their LIMITED observation took them), in VIOLATION of the LAW of GOD...  Does this mean that CHRIST was a LAWBREAKER?  After all, He DID do things on the SABBATH, that the LAW "condemned"!!!

Yes, in obedience to God. That was the exception I noted before.

Btw... Just curious (and no offense toward you intended, "learning" intended toward you), ...do you KNOW, why CHRIST healing on the SABBATH, and picking corn on the SABBATH and such, was in the SPIRIT --- NOT --- a violation of the LAW, Seth?  The JEWS had no SPIRITUAL INSIGHT concerning the SABBATH, ...do you?

It wouldn't matter if it was in violation to the Law among those who the Law was intended for. Christ could never violate the Law because the law was not for the righteous, which Christ was and is.



 

 Hmmmm --- So are you "saying in this statement" --- that YOUR THOUGHTS which are NOT mentioned and SUPPORTED in the WRITTEN WORD, are "His WORD" as well?  And are TRUTH because these "thoughts" LIVE in YOU?

Can you rephrase? I don't understand the question.

Good enough... Then your answer to the OP question would be something like this:  "concerning -- ME, the use of marijuana is SINFUL"...  

Yes I have affirmed that which is why since we seemed to agree, I have thought it really curious that you seem to disagree with my conclusions. Maybe I wasn't as clear as I could have been.  

Boy... have we boarded the "agreement train" or what?    This has been my WHOLE POINT!  

And mine too, which why I thought it was strange that we seemed to be in the middle of a disagreement. I have really been scratching my head about it.

Maybe since we agree on what seems to be a pretty critical point in this whole thing, we can see where we may be not so far apart in what we are saying regardless of what seems to be.

You have already admitted that the thing you shunned was IMPURE THOUGHTS, which occured both before and after using marijuana... so the CAUSE was present WITHOUT the marijuana eh?  

Two causes were in me, the propensity toward impure desires and thoughts, and the manifestation of them actively due to the behavior of taking a substance which not only led to them being manifest but made it difficult to be sober enough to take them captive.

Here is what YOU SAID:

As I said, the Spirit is for deliverance from sin. That is why it was provided for us.

This statement appears CONFINING to me... Had you said "one of the things of the SPIRIT is for deliverance from sin" --- then it would've been more OPEN sounding.  You followed that statement with -- "THAT is why it was provided for us" -- which again CLOSES the SPIRIT in, encasing it with the word -- "THAT"

Ok, but nothing in my statement was false, regardless of how it SEEMED. You said it "APPEARED" confining to you, which according to your own thought process and not from whether what I said was actually true or not. The Spirit IS for deliverance from sin. That IS why it was provided for us. Those are true statements on their own, regardless of whether or not your own thought process caused it to SEEM that I was confining.

C'mon Seth... My question has been quoted by me several times... and plainly you did not answer it.  Must I RETRACE all the instances?  

Well, as my friend I will hope that you will consider that I am not attempting to evade a question and that maybe I am not understanding the question as you intend. Should we try again?

Okay bro, MORE POINTED ---> WHAT do you consider the "LAW of LIBERTY"?  Is it OTHER than the "LAW of GOD"?  And if this is in fact, your perception (LAW of GOD=LAW of LIBERTY), then WHERE in the LAW of God is marijuana discussed as OTHER than "LIBERTY"?

I answered that not directly before: liberty from sin.

Yes... but the LAW and WORD of God is applicable to ALL... and is noted SPIRITUALLY in the WRITTEN WORD...

In our "varying experiences"... is the LAW applied TO US.

What I meant was that we just appeared to have different experiences regarding how pot use has affected us and what we have experienced in others. I just found that interesting.

Again... apply the measure to yourself only... and THAT is my point in this thread.

Me too. My point concerning your original question is "is pot use sinful" my answer is that it can be. And each person is encouraged to examine themselves to determine that.

You are welcome to maintain this observation Seth... however, it is nothing more than the "devil MADE ME DO IT" defense.

Identifying causal influences away from that which one identifies to be leading them away from the place God wants them and obstaining from them and noting them as causal, is not akin to the-devil-made-me-do it.

In the end... God did not blame EVE, nor Adam, nor the Serpent and stop there... He gave them ALL what they had coming, for they ALL conspired to manifest the disobedience.

If he held them all accountable it means that when Adam identified Eve and Eve identified the causal influence of the serpent, and God saw that it was truthful, punished them all, including the serpent who beguiled Eve. The serpent wasn't punished for Eve's sin, but for beguiling her, that was his sin. I am not sure what that has to do with identifying a behavior within myself (my own pot use) as sinful since you and I already agree it's fine to do that.



I

n this SAME WAY... the IMPURE THINKING is not CAUSED by marijuana in you... for it was manifest apart from marijuana... the FLESH is the CAUSE of those thoughts... and for YOU, marijuana ENHANCED those thoughts.

I disagree, causality is like a chain, each link leading to the other. Like I said it was not the ROOT, but it is a causal factor for me.

A cause is a person or thing or event or condition which gives rise to an action. If the Lord has me in a place where I am not as bound by thoughts opposed to Him and His righteousness, and put use makes the carnality in me more easily manifest, then along with the root problem (the carnal mind) the put use in that case is indeed causal in reducing my inhibitions against those things giving rise to the action of thinking them.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Seth...

Above you state this:  "I think the word is clear that we should obey the laws and respect authority as long as it does not conflict with us obeying God" -- though I agree with your "thinking"... Where does it state this, Seth? Where does it say we must OBEY the laws --- "as long as it does not conflict with us OBEYING God"?  

Well, in Romans 13:1-7 it talks about being in submission to governing authorities, "because the magistrates are not a fear to the good act." And God establishes himself as a God of order  1 Corinthians 14:33.

Maybe I ain't "gettin' it"... but, ...Again you have not answered my question, bro!  Where is it noted "as long as it does not conflict with us obeying God?"

If you are actually reading my words, then you know that I am quite well aquainted with Rom 13, for I have quoted it several times (it's one of my favorite verses concerning sovereignty). 

However, I think you are reading this passage in the LETTER... not the SPIRIT.  We are instructed to submit to the laws of society, for they (in theory) result in harmonious living.  As in --- If ALL of us observed the speed limits, there would be LESS accidents, as well as LESS serverity in those accidents...

What about "LAWS" that tax the POOR who have nothing to begin with, and allow the RICH, "tax shelters", that they may INDULGE themselves even MORE LAVISHLY?   

How about the "beaut" that USA -- "LAW making MAGISTRATES" -- gave GEICO to save their company, and the executives of GEICO handed out LARGE BONUSES to other EXECUTIVES?   

I do not argue against Rom 13, matter of fact -- the FIRST verse tells it ALL... for it notes that ALL POWER is OF GOD.

Meaning that NO POWER that is exercised by ANYONE, has a root, other than in Him.  And it is HE which has INVESTED varying degrees of HIS POWER in His creatures.

Many would review the "Pharaoh vs Moses" confrontation, and note that Moses was God's representative... however, that is not TRUE!  BOTH of these men were raised by GOD to do what they DID.  Even though Pharaoh was doing EVIL... it was GOD who was behind the whole thing, which ended up MAGNIFYING GOOD, as the EVIL could not (and never will)  withstand -- GOOD.

So you in your abstinance, and me in my using, are simply employing the POWER of choice, which was GIVEN to each of us by GOD (with FOREKNOWLEDGE as to what we would "choose" to do with it)... and which will also probably end up being as surprising -- as the "Pharaoh -vs- Moses" thing... 

Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

Romans 12:18
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Not sure of the applicability of these verses, but I am a "PEACE" fan, and love both, thanks for offering them! 

If a believer is smoking pot and therefore willfully breaking the laws of the "magistrates" who govern the land they inhabit (even being strangers in a strange land) and it compromises that peace through lack of submission to that which does not compromise the evangel. How can the the peace of the Lord shine to the world when believers get arrested and punished by that same world-system who those believers ought to be witnessing the Gospel to

Are you sure you OBEY every LAW, Seth?  Do you EVER drive faster than the speed limit?  By your own admission, YOU have WILLINGLY smoked pot.  Was it in a scenario that was LEGAL?  Did that event (you smoking illegally), alter anything that was MEANT to BE?  And if it were MEANT to be otherwise, ...then why did GOD not intervene?

Strangers in a strange land is one of my favorite novels! (just thought I'd throw that in!) 

The "magistrates" you so staunchly support, are busily manipulating the BUDGETS they are manipulating in their offices, which are taking money out of your pockets, to line their own. 

The NAZI's had rulership over Germany... do you think it was SPIRITUALLY right for the population to SUPPORT these murderers Seth?  Do you think that those who OPPOSED the NAZI's as they ruthlessly scoured their neighbors, raping, pillaging and murdering -- were DISOBEYING GOD? --- In this instance, I think you observe the LETTER of Rom 13, failing to recognize that just because one is IN POWER, does not mean he/she is to be followed into the DITCH.

The Pharisees were leaders... were they not?  What did CHRIST have to say to them about their "leadership"?  And did CHRIST defy that leadership Seth?  Did He not note them to be HARMFUL to the sheep?  As they WILLINGLY "sat in the best seats" and "dressed in the best attire", all at the EXPENSE of their poor followers? 

How about following JESUS -- were the JEWS who became followers of CHRIST and GRACE, and thereby breaking MANY of the LAWS which were noted as BURDENSOME... now deduced as DISOBEYING GOD?    How far will you take this LITERAL observation, bro?

What about the LEADERS of the church bro?  Are we to drop our belief in UR, to follow the RELIGIOUSLY educated charletons?  Will you drop your observation of the Gospel, and adopt the larger leadership's version of the "gospel"?  Say, the snazzy and trendy  ORAL ROBERTS or JOEL OSTEEN versions?

There is a lot that can be said of POWER and of LAW and of those who supposedly LEAD and institute "LAWS"... but getting back to basics...

Where in the LAW of LIBERTY is marijuana found debased? 

The very same corrupt bunch of politicians allows NICOTINE to be sold as a LEGAL product (which IS ADDICTIVE and DOES cause CANCER & HEART DISEASE), are making "LAWS" against the legality of marijuana which does no such thing.  Are you a supporter of their "LAWFUL" mandate to SELL CIGARETTES?  Is there not CORRUPTION in allowing ADDICTIVE substances to be sold, and DISALLOWING -- UNADDICTIVE substances?

Would God want us to sacrifice that peace with all men in order to use pot for one's own spiritual growth?

Where do you get this Seth?    How is PEACE "sacrificed" by marijuana use?  How is spiritual growth denied by its use?  Don't you see that you are INSISTING we all look at this "gray area" with your manner of SHADING? 

And that is why I think Paul says to be in submission to the governing authority in matters which DO NO conflict with God's evangel.

Why did you not quote the Scripture upon which you found this?  Hey, I ALWAYS want to learn!    Where did Paul state this brother?

Oh really?  This statement is essentially "splitting hairs" bro...

"Technically" according to WHO?  

I was talking about according to the definition of "drug."

Well, all a "definition" is, is a historical account of the applicational usage of a given word... Definitions are changing all the time. GAY once meant "happy"... is that what it commonly means today?

That some governmental agency calls an HERB that God created, a DRUG, does not mean that it is a DRUG...

Is SUGAR "technically" a DRUG, Seth?  If it IS (for it is "known" that it can and does damage to the body, and does AFFECT the mind), why do the sources (you probably refer to) that determine marijuana to be a "DRUG", not set LAWS and REGULATIONS concerning SUGAR?

I am not sure if the FDA qualifies sugar as a drug or not. But according to the "technical" definitions of what a drug is, pot is definitely a drug. However a "drug" not necessarily a bad thing.

You accept that marijuana is a DRUG... I do not.  It is an herb.  Which is as it IS, just as GOD created and GAVE it to man -- Gen 1:29

The FDA is not the defining agency for GOD or that which HE CREATED... HE gave ALL the herbs to MAN -- Gen 1:29

Matt 19:6 -- [a principle] "...what GOD hath joined together, let NOT MAN put assunder"     GOD gave me marijuana... MAN endeavors with his "LAWS" endeavors to take it away...

Irregardless of the FDA "determination" to categorize marijuana as a DRUG, and SUGAR as a FOOD, this "determination" is debatable.  For BOTH can be EATEN...

drug
Mirriam Webster
1 a obsolete : a substance used in dyeing or chemical operations b : a substance used as a medication or in the preparation of medication c according to the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (1) : a substance recognized in an official pharmacopoeia or formulary (2) : a substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease (3) : a substance other than food intended to affect the structure or function of the body (4) : a substance intended for use as a component of a medicine but not a device or a component, part, or accessory of a device

2 : a commodity that is not salable or for which there is no demand —used in the phrase drug on the market
3 : something and often an illegal substance that causes addiction, habituation, or a marked change in consciousness

There are MANY, MANY herbal "medicines"... which are NOT manufactured -- my wife works (part time) for an osteopath, who uses herbal remedies which often WORK BETTER than any prescription "DRUG"...

Marijuana in its NATURAL state, is an herb which is helpful in the LEGAL treatment of GLAUCOMA (eye disease)... so it helps one to -- SEE -- as well as helpful and useful in pain management.

The GLAUCOMA victim still experiences the SAME affects as do I, in using marijuana.  So in treating his disease which inhibits his SIGHT, ...he is ending up affected by the marijuana  LEGALLY, and I am not?  What kind of DOUBLE-TALK is this? 

If they LEGALIZE marijuana tomorrow... what then Seth?  Will I be found SINNING in your eyes, even though I now have the LEGAL right to it?  Think about it. 

That is 2 faces of GOVERNMENT in action, which btw, is continually quite CORRUPT in most cases... actively STEALING from us to make themselves richer by CHANGING TAX LAWS to benefit themselves... all the while, putting me in JAIL for the SAME thing a GLAUCOMA victim is doing?  Simply because I do not have a PRESCRIPTION from a doctor, for it.  What HYPOCRISY is this?  It is LEGAL in one instance and not another, or "as long as THEY say so"?

You are welcome to argue this Seth... but mark my words... you will find out that your position on marijuana is NOT spiritually OR Biblically supported, nor should be pointed toward ANYONE other than YOURSELF. (which is what Rom 14:14 endeavors to convey to us all.)

bro...

...willieH 

[Seth]

willieH: Hi Seth...

Above you state this:  "I think the word is clear that we should obey the laws and respect authority as long as it does not conflict with us obeying God" -- though I agree with your "thinking"... Where does it state this, Seth? Where does it say we must OBEY the laws --- "as long as it does not conflict with us OBEYING God"?  

Well, in Romans 13:1-7 it talks about being in submission to governing authorities, "because the magistrates are not a fear to the good act." And God establishes himself as a God of order  1 Corinthians 14:33.

Maybe I ain't "gettin' it"... but, ...Again you have not answered my question, bro!  Where is it noted "as long as it does not conflict with us obeying God?"

WillieH, I think a line has been crossed for me now. You say I have not answered your question when I did, even if you don't think my answer was to your liking does not mean I did not answer. Furthermore you continue to suggest I am evading.

I cannot go further with this because of that as I find that offensive to me and not beneficial in my life to continue with things like that. I don't like being provoked like that. And honestly this issue is of very little importance to me so it's not worth it under circumstances where I feel that I am being provoked. In our conversation I am basically trying to clarify something that I believed to be a pretty harmless statement in my first post (which is clarified enough now since we agreed on what I was trying to clarify) now it's this whole exchange is getting labyrinthine and the underlying issue was never very interesting to me enough to continue in it further than this point. I am going to move on.


Peace brother.

[Beloved Servant]

So...
      Now we all see another downfall of even the discussion of marijuana — let alone the use of the substance.
Indulge Adam and he will indulge Eve.

[Lupac]

What? WHAT?!? I'm sorry, but I might be the biggest libertarian on the forum. (Can't say for sure.) And this just about makes my blood boil. (Nothing personal Molly.) I just can't stand the "It may hurt people, so it should me illegal." mentality. I am a big believer in personal responsibility. Meaning I'm not looking to other men, or the government to be responsible for my safety.

I can see your point but with so many things, people believe if they are allowed to sell this stuff, surely it can't be harmful.  Then it turns out to be deadly.  Like cigarettes.  I'm sure nobody thought they were harmful back in the day of the Marlboro man.

Molly, your heart is in the right place, but you line of thinking is what led to prohibition in the 30's, and we all know how well that went...

So...
      Now we all see another downfall of even the discussion of marijuana — let alone the use of the substance.
Indulge Adam and he will indulge Eve.

What is this supposed to mean?

[Beloved Servant]

The rift between the brethren of Seth and Willie. That's what it means.
This topic is toxic. The Lord Jesus did not rise from the Jordan with a joint in His hand saying: '"Praise the Lord, gimme a toke!"

[Lupac]

The rift between the brethren of Seth and Willie. That's what it means.
This topic is toxic. The Lord Jesus did not rise from the Jordan with a joint in His hand saying: '"Praise the Lord, gimme a toke!"

No, but there's evidence to believe that the anointing oil the Jews used contained cannabis. It's just a debate. No one has to get upset over anything. (Except me, and the issue of government control and sugar.  )

[Cardinal]

  What evidence?

[Lupac]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_(etymology)

[jabcat]

Actually, debates are discouraged here at TM.  It's a discussion forum, to hopefully edify each other, building up in the Spirit, equipping the saints.  I believe this thread has reached beyond its point of any possible edification.  One doesn't have to agree with this, your beliefs and actions are between you and God.  It's one person's opinion, but I see the scriptures say we're to be filled with the Spirit - I can't find any evidence that includes artificially getting high just for the kick of it.  If this was a thread advocating the use of medicinal herbs and attempting to help others with it, that might be another story.  But IMO, that's not what's happening here.  There are actually people who could be on the cusp of their own personal issues and could be damaged by us either advocating recreational drug use, and/or other damaging issues arise when circular arguing and debating occur.  If anyone has a different opinion or wants to pursue their own passions, then that's up to them.  But I believe it's been a matter of public debate more than long enough for now.  How about we talk about something else for a bit.  

Everyone please feel free to hang around and discuss other things, but for now at least, I'm locking the thread.

"Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things."  Phillipians 4:8.  

Thanks, James.