Author Topic: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?  (Read 8707 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #100 on: November 26, 2009, 06:26:06 PM »
I picked out just one argument. That's about contrary to every medical paper ever published...

Quote from: Molly
Despite a popular belief, marijuana side effects speed up the heart, blood and breathing rate. The body is taxed more and this speeds up the aging process just like methamphetamines do.
Activty like sports, walking or even climbing stairs is very often recommeded because people tend to move way to less.
Advice like cycle 20 minutes a day are very comon. Often with the added note that you should be at or above 70% of you capacity. Meaning increased heart rate. Or look up what sex and orgasms do to your heart arte and blood pressure.

Lupac.
I do hear the THC argument of Molly quite often here. My country is quite liberal on drugs and even those who 'support' it also speak about higer levels.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 06:41:47 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Lupac

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #101 on: November 26, 2009, 06:30:34 PM »
I agree, to think after thousands of years of cannabis growing and changing, we could do something to it in three decades to increase the potency 200% or whatever the number is, is just stupid and egotistical.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #102 on: November 26, 2009, 06:39:25 PM »
Very few people will lace weed, because of one simple fact.
I don't know what laced means. But I guess it's adding stuff?
Can the quality vary debending how weed is grown?
Meat is not dangerous. But when the cows are grow with growth hormone it no longer is good stuff.
Nothing is mixed with the meat (as in laced???) but the growing of the meat/weed is 'poluted'
That's not an argument but a honest question.

Quote
One of the things that the Lord spoke to me about this subject was the point of origin and the transportation/distribution of this plant.
Many lives are lost/destroyed including the innocent and children with the production of this plant.
Machine guns and murder go hand-in-hand with the demand for it's use.
Many lives would be saved if people would forgo their personal use and pleasure.

Ah, the old "Marijuana Funds Terrorism" argument. First of all, the only people that destroy their lives are the dealers, and the ones growing it. Because it's illegal. (In the USA) The DEA has destroyed more lives than every illegal drug combined. I suggest you watch a movie called "The Union". Just search on google videos and you'll find it.
Funny argument. Here downloading/copying movies is legal. But we have our version of RIAA. They also try to link downloading a movie to funding Bin Laden. Follow the money I would say...
Besides even if 1 joint funds a 1000 carbombings it doesn't make the joint itselfs more/less addictive.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #103 on: November 26, 2009, 06:39:37 PM »
Perhaps it is not what it is but what is has become.
If one man can say it is not an idol to me, the actions of mankind says the opposite.
Generations can not put it down.

And yes, that fact that it destroys lives OTHER THAN YOUR OWN is the greater folly.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #104 on: November 26, 2009, 06:48:46 PM »
Perhaps it is not what it is but what is has become.
Again something for Lupac to answer in a more detailed manner.
In a bar it's not uncommon a someone selling the stuff appear in that bar. Bit like a photo album with all those little pockets in it. Anyway there are ober 20-30 different sort of weed in that 'album'
All differently priced. That's all I know about it because I have zero interest in smoking the stuff. But my guess is that some stuff is the regular stuff and others the "improved" version. Perhaps the price just varies because of the origin of the weed.  Some is for example called "Maroc" I guess that come sfrom Marocco and adds shipping fees.
Lupac?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Lupac

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #105 on: November 26, 2009, 07:04:37 PM »
Very few people will lace weed, because of one simple fact.
I don't know what laced means. But I guess it's adding stuff?
Can the quality vary debending how weed is grown?
Meat is not dangerous. But when the cows are grow with growth hormone it no longer is good stuff.
Nothing is mixed with the meat (as in laced???) but the growing of the meat/weed is 'poluted'
That's not an argument but a honest question.

Quote
One of the things that the Lord spoke to me about this subject was the point of origin and the transportation/distribution of this plant.
Many lives are lost/destroyed including the innocent and children with the production of this plant.
Machine guns and murder go hand-in-hand with the demand for it's use.
Many lives would be saved if people would forgo their personal use and pleasure.

Ah, the old "Marijuana Funds Terrorism" argument. First of all, the only people that destroy their lives are the dealers, and the ones growing it. Because it's illegal. (In the USA) The DEA has destroyed more lives than every illegal drug combined. I suggest you watch a movie called "The Union". Just search on google videos and you'll find it.
Funny argument. Here downloading/copying movies is legal. But we have our version of RIAA. They also try to link downloading a movie to funding Bin Laden. Follow the money I would say...
Besides even if 1 joint funds a 1000 carbombings it doesn't make the joint itselfs more/less addictive.

Lacing just means to add other drugs to the weed by sprinkling it onto the weed. It's hard to say what the most common is, since it's very rare. But it seems like the rarer the happening, the more hyped up it is. You hardly hear about grit weed, because coke and PCP are much more "sensational" than broken glass.

Perhaps it is not what it is but what is has become.
If one man can say it is not an idol to me, the actions of mankind says the opposite.
Generations can not put it down.

And yes, that fact that it destroys lives OTHER THAN YOUR OWN is the greater folly.


But what I'm trying to say is, how does it destroy other lives? The police arresting sellers/dealers/smokers? Than the fact that it is illegal is the problem. Earlier you were talking about it destroying kids lives. How? No one with half a brain would sell to a kid, you know why? Kids have NO MONEY. As I said before, it is not physically addicting, like tobacco, or harder drugs. It can be mentally addicting. In the same way that, oh say, World of Warcraft can be addicting. I've known many people who put their whole lives on hold, just so they can play that game. Should we make World of Warcraft illegal? Maybe arrest the sellers of this "evil" game. Track the IP addresses of the ones playing it and put them in jail. We must protect the public. You see how ridiculous this is?

Perhaps it is not what it is but what is has become.
Again something for Lupac to answer in a more detailed manner.
In a bar it's not uncommon a someone selling the stuff appear in that bar. Bit like a photo album with all those little pockets in it. Anyway there are ober 20-30 different sort of weed in that 'album'
All differently priced. That's all I know about it because I have zero interest in smoking the stuff. But my guess is that some stuff is the regular stuff and others the "improved" version. Perhaps the price just varies because of the origin of the weed.  Some is for example called "Maroc" I guess that come sfrom Marocco and adds shipping fees.
Lupac?

Weed is priced based on quality, like alcohol. But unlike alcohol, (or maybe like it? I don't drink very often.) weed quality changes the high. Generally, the higher quality the weed, the less likely you'll experience some of the more annoying side effects of it. (Like headache, or dry mouth.) And usually, the high will last longer and be more enjoyable. Again, I recommend watching "The Union", it'll put everything into prospective.

Offline Pierac

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #106 on: November 26, 2009, 07:54:07 PM »


1Co 6:12  All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

1Co 10:23  All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.




Offline Molly

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #107 on: November 26, 2009, 08:24:47 PM »
Marijuana May Disrupt Brain Development
By LiveScience Staff

posted: 03 February 2009 10:20 am ET



The term pot-head takes on new meaning with a study that suggests adolescents and young adults who smoked a lot of marijuana are more likely than non-users to have disrupted brain development.

Using brain scans, researchers found abnormalities in areas of the brain that interconnect brain regions involved in memory, attention, decision-making, language and executive functioning skills.

The findings are of particular concern because adolescence is a crucial period for brain development and maturation, the researchers note.

"Studies of normal brain development reveal critical areas of the brain that develop during late adolescence, and our study shows that heavy cannabis use is associated with damage in those brain regions," said study leader Manzar Ashtari of the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.

The findings are considered preliminary, however, and more research is needed to confirm the work. The results, announced today, were detailed in the Journal of Psychiatric Research last month.

The study

This is not the first research to suggest marijuana damages the brain. In previous reseach involving memory skill stests, subjects who'd smoked too much did poorly. But brain imaging can reveal specifics.

In an admittedly small study, Ashtari and colleagues performed imaging studies on 14 young men (average age 19) from a residential drug treatment center in New York State, as well as 14 healthy men of the same age.

The 14 subjects from the drug treatment center all had a history of heavy cannabis use during adolescence. On average, they had smoked marijuana from age 13 till age 18 or 19, and reported smoking nearly 6 marijuana joints daily in the final year before they stopped using the drug.

The brain scans measureed water movement through brain tissues.

"The abnormal patterns of water diffusion that we found among the young men with histories of marijuana use suggest damage or an arrest in development of the myelin sheath that surrounds brain cells," Ashtari said.

Myelin provides a coating around brain cells similar to insulation covering an electrical wire. If myelin does not function properly, signaling within the brain may be slower. Myelin gives its color to the white matter of the brain, and covers the nerve fibers that connect different brain regions.

"Our results suggest that early-onset substance use may alter the development of white matter circuits, especially those connections among the frontal, parietal and temporal regions of the brain," Ashtari said. "Abnormal white matter development could slow information transfer in the brain and affect cognitive functions."

Study shortcomings

Ashtari pointed out shortcomings in the study, however.

For one, it involved a small number of subjects. Also, five of the 14 subjects with heavy cannabis use also had a history of alcohol abuse, which may have contributed an effect. Also, it is possible that the brain abnormalities may have predisposed the subjects to drug dependence, rather than drug usage causing the brain abnormalities.

"Further research should be done to investigate the relation between repeated marijuana use and white matter development," Ashtari said. "However, our work reinforces the idea that the adolescent brain may be especially vulnerable to risky behaviors such as substance abuse, because of crucial neural development that occurs during those years."

The work was funded by the National Institute of Mental Health.

http://www.livescience.com/health/090203-marijuana-brain.html
« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 08:32:19 PM by Molly »

Lupac

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #108 on: November 26, 2009, 08:59:46 PM »
Okay Molly, you got me. Oh wait. I never advocated that kids should smoke cannabis. If legal, it should be sold like cigarettes or alcohol, and have a over 18-21 only law. Now that we're past that, read this:

http://www.physorg.com/news157280425.html

Quote
(PhysOrg.com) -- It appears that when it comes to teen brain development, parents should be more worried about alcohol abuse than marijuana abuse. Two recent studies have been published showing that alcohol -- a legal substance (though not legal for teens in the U.S.) -- is considered more dangerous than marijuana, which is illegal in many countries.

One study has been published in the U.S., in the journal Clinical EEG and neuroscience: official journal of the EEG and Clinical Neuroscience Society (ENCS), and shows that alcohol has a stronger effect on teen brain development than marijuana. The other is a study published in the Lancet, offering the results of substance classification by a number of U.K. professionals, purporting that alcohol is more dangerous than marijuana to individuals and to society.

The U.S. study was undertaken by Squeglia, Jacobus and Tapert in a San Diego State University/University of California San Diego joint doctoral program. The study looks at teen brain development for its uniqueness, as well as for the effects that substance abuse has on the brain during this time. Because alcohol and marijuana are commonly used by high school students, it is little surprise that the study is interested in the brain abnormalities stemming from abuse of these substances.

When the brain abnormalities were measured -- seen in terms of brain functioning and structure, cognitive tasks and quality of white matter -- it appeared as though alcohol had a great effect than marijuana. Heavy drinking was defined 20 drinks per month, and the abnormalities were detectable. In heavy marijuana users, abnormalities existed, but not to the same degree as those seen in alcohol abusers.

Findings from the U.S. study, showing that alcohol use in teens causes more irregular brain function than marijuana, would seem to square with efforts in the U.K. to encourage new drug classification. In the Lancet, David Nutt at Bristol University, along with his colleagues, asked psychologists and scientifically or medically trained police to rank different substances according to how harmful they are. The study purports that experts rank alcohol (and tobacco) as more harmful than marijuana. In a list of 20 substances, alcohol came in at number five, tobacco came in at number nine, and marijuana/cannabis came in at number eleven.

These studies are likely to add fuel to movements in both the U.S. and the U.K. to re-classify marijuana. Supporters of fewer restrictions on marijuana will undoubtedly point to scientific studies that show we already legalize less dangerous substances.

I don't think kids should be binge drinking anymore than they should be getting high. Also, the study used 28 people, which only 14 were using cannabis, there is no way that is statistically accurate;. I could take 14 random people and compare them to 14 smokers and get any result I want.

Here is proof that "marijuana" does nothing to an adolescent brain: (It's too long to post.)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1524733/?tool=pmcentrez

Science: Heavy cannabis use without long-term effect on global intelligence:
http://www.cannabis-med.org/english/bulletin/ww_en_db_cannabis_artikel.php?id=115#2

Quote
Canadian researcher compared the intelligence quotient (IQ) of 15 current heavy users of cannabis, 9 current light users, 9 former regular users and 37 non-users in a group of 70 young people. Participants had been followed since birth and now were 17-20 years old.

Current marijuana use was significantly correlated in a dose-related fashion with a decline in IQ when compared to the IQ measured at age 9-12. In current heavy users the IQ showed a decrease of 4.1 points, compared to gains in IQ points for light current users (5.8), former users (3.5) and non-users (2.6).

The authors concluded that current cannabis use "had a negative effect on global IQ score only in subjects who smoked 5 or more joints per week" and that "marijuana does not have a long-term negative impact on global intelligence."

Former users had smoked marijuana regularly in the past but not for at least 3 months. Current heavy use was defined as smoking at least 5 joints per week. Light users smoked less than 5 joints per week.

(Source: Fried P, et al. Current and former marijuana use: preliminary findings of a longitudinal study of effects on IQ in young adults. CMAJ 2002;166(7):887-91)

Study Shows Marijuana Promotes Neuron Growth:
http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?menu=c10400&no=253377&rel_no=1

Marijuana May Spur New Brain Cells:
http://www.treatingyourself.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5921

Cannabinoids promote embryonic and adult hippocampus neurogenesis and produce anxiolytic- and antidepressant-like effects:
http://www.jci.org/articles/view/25509/version/1

Your move...

Offline Molly

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #109 on: November 26, 2009, 09:17:45 PM »
The part of the brain that inhibits risky behavior does not fully develop until age 25.
A National Institutes of Health study suggests that the region of the brain that inhibits risky behavior is not fully formed until age 25, a finding with implications for a host of policies, including the nation's driving laws.

"We'd thought the highest levels of physical and brain maturity were reached by age 18, maybe earlier -- so this threw us," said Jay Giedd, a pediatric psychiatrist leading the study, which released its first results in April. That makes adolescence "a dangerous time, when it should be the best."

So that is why teenagers are so reckless. Hardly comforting news. You can know this and they will still be reckless after all.



http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/000603.html



How Do You Survive the Teen Years…
If Brain Development Isn't Complete until 25?

Ellen Frankenberg, Ph.D.

New research is now indicating what you and I have long suspected: the human brain is not fully developed at 16 (when your darlings become legal to drive 5,000 lb. vehicles down our highways at 65 miles per hour) nor at 18 (when they are entitled to enter the polling booth and choose the leaders of the western world), nor at 21 (when they can legally purchase and consume alcohol in thousands of venues across these United States).

Even though our children mature physically earlier than previous generations, and their hormonal development seems more and more precocious, the human brain is not fully mature until about age 25. You and I both know a few people who had several children before their brains were fully developed.

The synapses in the brain, those magical connections that link one tidbit of information to the next, that organize information between cause and effect, risk and consequences, continue to develop well into the 20s, according to Jay Giedd of the National Institute of Mental Health.

Teen brains blossom with new brain cells and neural connections, something that was formerly thought to happen only in the first 18 months of life. Their "frontal lobes - responsible for 'executive' functions such as self control, judgment, emotional regulation, organization and planning - undergo wholesale renovation", according to a report by Sharon Begley, published recently in Newsweek magazine.

"Teens have the power to determine their own brain development, to determine which connections survive and which don't, [depending on] whether they do art, or music or sports or video games," says Giedd.

Isn't it true that about the age of 25 most young people "get it"? They finally realize that Mark Twain was right: "When I was 17 my father was stupid, but by the time I was 25 my father had learned a lot!" The new research on human brain development may explain why in the mid 20s the consequences of risky behavior, wasted money or a lack of purpose finally register in those precious frontal lobes.

http://www.frankenberggroup.com/resources2.asp



Quote
Study Shows Marijuana Promotes Neuron Growth:
http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?menu=c10400&no=253377&rel_no=1

Marijuana May Spur New Brain Cells:
http://www.treatingyourself.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5921

Cannabinoids promote embryonic and adult hippocampus neurogenesis and produce anxiolytic- and antidepressant-like effects:
http://www.jci.org/articles/view/25509/version/1




These are animal studies.  Rats.

"Just after this research appeared, Professor Robin Murray of the Institute of Psychiatry of the United Kingdom in an interview with BBC News, questioned whether the anti-anxiety and antidepressant effects seen in the animals would be replicated in humans: "This is a very big leap of faith as they have no data on humans, and the supposed animals' models of anxiety and depression that they use don't have much in common with the human conditions."

« Last Edit: November 26, 2009, 09:30:14 PM by Molly »

Lupac

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #110 on: November 26, 2009, 09:44:04 PM »
So, when animal studies show signs that something is bad for them, it's bad for humans too; but when they show something positive, it's a "big leap of faith"? What about in the 70s when it was "discovered" that cannabis kills your brain, which they tested on monkeys. That was enough to start the Nixon "War on Drugs". And they didn't tell you how they conducted this test. There's a lot too it, but they basically put gas masks on the monkeys and pumped them full of it for ten minutes straight. The monkeys couldn't breath and they died from lack of oxygen. But low and behold, when they opened up the dead monkey's brain, the brain cells were dead before the monkey was. So that "proved" that cannabis killed them. If you die from lack of oxygen, the first thing that dies is your brain. I still urge everyone to watch "The Union" on google videos.

Offline Molly

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #111 on: November 26, 2009, 11:11:42 PM »
You can't necessarily draw an accurate conclusion about humans from rat studies, that's true.

You have to admit that there is something in the cannibis that is affecting your brain, altering your perceptions, creating an effect.  That is why you use it.  If it did nothing to you, you wouldn't use it.  So, it is, indeed, affecting brain chemistry and processes.  You don't need a study to know that.  It also, as a result, affects behavior.  To pretend it doesn't do these things is just plain silly.  Now put that together with a developing brain and use common sense.  Would you feed this stuff to your baby?

Narcotics and opiates also affect the brain.  These substances have great uses for people who are sick or in pain.  Thank God for them if you need them.  But, to just sit around popping pain killers for the psychogenic effect is folly.

I think we need to protect our children, who are using these drugs in increasingly higher numbers.  Using marijuana in middle school or high school or even college is something that we, as adults, should think carefully about before promoting--especially if it causes brain damage, not to mention lack of motivation, crime, and drug addiction.

I have nothing against the medicinal use of marijuana if it is shown effective for people who are ill.  Nor against the use of marijuana to provide hemp, from which you can make paper, biodegradable plastics, and fuel. 

I'll watch your movie though.  I am very against the minimum mandatory sentences for drug users that takes discretion out of the hands of judges.  This puts a lot of people in jail who do not belong there.

Offline willieH

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #112 on: November 27, 2009, 12:02:07 AM »
willieH: Hi brother S...  :cloud9:

"pre apology" for the LONG post.  :blush:

Thanks for that answer bro, but it did not really answer my question...  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieH
For the record, ...what is the definition (within your perception) of the "embodiement of God's character" bro? 

Being Christlike, soberminded, righteous, godly in this present age.  :dontknow:

Thanks for the answer to that question, but you have yet to answer my first question bro... which was:

Quote from: willieH
Let me ask you, ...what if the OPPOSITE is manifest bro?  What if I were to use marijuana, and a song or speech which EDIFIES and EXALTS GOD, proceeds from me? (which it has)... what then?

I look forward to your answer to this...  :thanks:

Quote from: willieH
This "embodiement" is a pretty big thing... and it only leads back to Him, that which HE sent out.  If marijuana was put here by Him (and it was)... and He did not specify GUIDELINES for its use... then how can we determine MISUSE of it?

The leading of the Holy Spirit. And, by examining ourselves and our usage of it, which of course he guides us in. And anyone can say anything about what the Spirit leads them to do. But it's each person's issue according to their conscious.

With all due respect to your knowledge and dedication to God, brother S...

Examination of SELF must be according to the measure of the WORD of God, bro... where NO MEASURE appears, then the examination is therefore not employing the WORD of God in making that measurement. 

The "conscience" is the HOLY SPIRIT which TESTIFIES of the WORD... If no TESTIMONY exists in the portion of GOD'S WORD which has been provided to us, then the "conscience" is dependent upon "feelings", and/or "teachings" of others, EXTERNAL of the TESTIMONY of the WORD.

In 64 years of life, 33 of which have been dedicated to God, ...it is my observation that  many "feel" that the "leading" of the Holy Spirit can be above and outside of the WORD, however... if there is nothing in the WORD which IS the TESTIMONY of CHRIST -- Rev 1:2 -- John 1:1 -- 1 Cor 1:6 -- concerning this "leading", then this is resorting to an EXTERNAL, individual speculation...

The Holy Spirit is come to EXALT and ENLARGE upon what CHRIST taught and did --->

John 15:26 -- but when the COMFORTER is come, whom I send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall TESTIFY of ME... [the WORD]

The Holy Spirit teaches and TESTIFIES of the TRUTH that is IN THE WORD... [CHRIST]

If the WORD is SILENT, then the Holy Spirit is not making "testimony"... for His TESTIMONY is the WORD...

Quote from: willieH
As I see it, ...except by observing it with common sense, and moderation, there is no MISUSE of it...

That's a big exception.

That the WORD speaks NOTHING of it... it is an Unscriptural exception which is not expounded upon one way or the other.  Concerning behaviors or indulgences that are not identified in the WORD, we must as disciples... exercise moderation (Paul noted to take a little wine for thy stomachs sake, CHRIST turned the water into wine, marijuana is not mentioned, etc.)

Quote from: willieH
JESUS threw over the tables in the temple... would THAT be part of the "embodiement"?  If so, how?

Passion for what is right. It depends on how one is led by the Spirit.

In this case "what is RIGHT" is left to a matter of opinion, Seth...  For the WORD does not set guidelines concerning this subject.

One is only LED by the Spirit, in relation to that which is WRITTEN.  If nothing is WRITTEN, then the SPIRIT has (by the Father been provided) NO TESTIMONY to lead one TO "what is RIGHT", concerning a given thing.  Therefore, as Scripture notes OVER INDULGENCE is NOT acceptable in the sight of God concerning things that ARE addressed in it, we can thereby deduce this principle as applicable to other things which ARE NOT addressed in it -- i.e. -- moderation.

Quote from: willieH
God created SEX... and the proper USE of it is NOT SINFUL, however the IMPROPER use of it, IS SIN...

God created ALCOHOL... and the proper USE of it is NOT SINFUL, however the IMPROPER use of it IS SIN... see what I mean?

Bingo, that was my whole point. :thumbsup:

Improper use. And how do we determine what is improper? It's up the individual to examine himself with the guidance of the Spirit to know that.  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Sorry to (slightly) disagree brother S, ...but I do not believe "the SPIRIT" is "guiding" in this instance...  God gave us the ability to REASON.  This ability is employed concerning that which is profittable, and that which is unprofittable in areas EXTERNAL of the teachings of HIS WORD... 

The WORD is also SILENT concerning the use of SUGAR, ...Sugar causes tooth decay... does one abstain from its use because one is guided by the SPIRIT?  Or is common sense employed by the user, as to how (and how much) SUGAR is used?  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieH
Anything that is within our ability to choose personal involvement, CAN be SINFUL...  but the SILENCE of Scripture concerning use of marijuana, or even Alcohol as "SIN"... is proof enough that it is NOT...

So when you ask, "is marijuana use sinful" I say "It can be." However, silence of scripture concerning the use of pot or alcohol is not proof enough for me it is not. That would be an argument from silence. I would say the improper use of anything, including pot would be sinful even though the written word does not mention pot specifically.

I have already agreed that if one is convicted of SIN on something UNMENTIONED in Scripture, that it is SIN to that one... However, that is NOT a measure which can be legally, and Scripturally IMPOSED upon others...  :dontknow: (i.e -- "misuse")

And because of the SILENCE or lack of DIRECTIVE concerning this subject in the WORD, upon WHAT do you rest, and upon WHAT do you note is "MISUSE", Seth?

I'd like to know so I can be sure to understand what YOU BELIEVE to be MISUSE.  And upon WHAT you base this measure and belief.

Because some "intellectual" (@Wikipedia) has given an opinion, you use IT as a measure of what IS or IS NOT correct in arguement.  That is your choice, however...

Can you be cited by the CITY, for SPEEDING where there are NO speed limits set and posted, Seth? (aside from wet or icy conditions, and even then it is up the descretion of the driver as to what speed is SAFE and what is NOT)...

God's WORD notes that where no LAW is, no "IMPUTATION" is either...  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieH
~~  Is it Seth?  Have you smoked or eaten pot?  If you have, then you will KNOW that it hardly affects the mind NEGATIVELY, nor CONTROLS the mind...

~~  If you have NOT, then you are basing your statement that notes pot as "powerful" as opposed to "mudane" upon hearsay.

Quote from: willieH
Wow bro... There must be behaviors in the Bay area, that are not present in Los Angeles or Spokane!  I smoked pot for 10 solid years in Los Angeles and Spokane --- and a good 15 years (of much lesser use) in Spokane, with countless people on countless occasions, and NEVER ONCE did I ever witness NEGATIVITY arising from anyone using it in proximity to me -- NEVER ONCE!

I sure have, and I have been all around CA.

Your experience certainly does NOT reflect my own which has spanned 64 years.

Quote from: willieH
What do you mean by "less than sober" bro?  "Sober" has quite a few applicable meanings...  :JCThink:

In what way or ways did it "control" your mind?  :scratchhead:

I mean that I smoked it, and then I was stoned and my thoughts became far from God, and that is just me. It controlled my mind in that way to where I did not feel in control of my thoughts.

"Control" of ones thoughts is not to be of ourselves.  We are to be given over in submission to CHRIST, who therein "controls"...

I have had MANY a SPIRITUAL experience while using marijuana.  (You refer to it as "stoned", I do not)...  I can also testify of MANY revelations which have occured during use as well...  :dontknow:

I see... This is understandable... but maybe marijuana was not the culprit.  Don't mean to be sarcastic... but (unfortunately) I too, have had impure thoughts during my lifetime that had nothing to do with marijuana... They were moments that I will be happy to have stricken from the record, but when this occured during the use of marijuana, it was not the marijuana that "caused" the thoughts... nor imposed control of those thoughts...  It was my mind that (in that moment) was not submitted to CHRIST, that "caused" those "impure" thoughts, not the marijuana.

Well for me, the pot was indeed the culprit.


Or so you presently think and believe... so it is good for you to abstain, and I commend you for it! 

A couple of questions:

(1) Did you ever have an IMPURE thought PRIOR to using marijuana?
(2) Have you ever had an IMPURE thought AFTER abstaining from marijuana use?  If you have, then the possibility remains that your deduction is mislaid.

So it won't embarrass you to answer, I have had IMPURE thoughts both before and after using marijuana in my life.  (I have very rarely used it for the last 10 years)

"IMPURE thoughts" are propositions of the flesh, which PAUL noted as continuing in his LIFE experience -- Rom 7 -- whole chapter.

Quote from: willieH
Again, what the individual personally esteems, is an individual concern.  My question in this thread was more IN GENERAL... Such as, ...what the WORD might broadcast as a direction or teaching concerning it...

Now I know your question was more in general, but in fairness, you didn't specify. IMHO The Word will let people know individually whether it's fine or not.

I disagree.  The WORD says NOTHING about it, so the WORD does not "let people know"... It is YOU, yourself, which has established for yourself that marijuana is SINFUL, and THAT is what makes it SIN to you.  As Paul noted in Rom 14:14 -- The WORD did not instruct you, one way or the other. :mnah:

Quote from: willieH
As I said in my question above... If I use marijuana, and a wonderful and TRUTHFUL  revelation comes forth from within me, ...is this WRONG in some way, because marijuana was a part of it?  :mshock:

I'm really not the judge of that in each individual case. God is your judge on matters like that, not me.  :dontknow:

That still does not answer the question. :mnah:  I did not ask you to make a "judgment", I asked you [paraphrase] "how can "marijuana" be part of something annointed"?

Quote
Agreed bro... but aside from that, marijuana and heroin are 2 completely different things -- in 2 completely different categories.  

HEROIN

Heroin can KILL you if you overdose yourself.  
Heroin is PHYSICALLY addictive after the first few uses.
Heroin does NOT come from the ground -- AS IS.  
Heroin must be PROCESSED/manufactured in order to be used.

MARIJUANA

Marijuana cannot KILL you by overdose.
Marijuana is NOT PHYSICALLY addictive, even after hundreds of uses.
Marijuana COMES from the ground (and from GOD) -- AS IS
Marijuana needs NO PROCESSING to be used.

This is true, that heroin is different than pot. My point there was not to compare the two as similar or the same but to give and example of a gradation of things which can be more powerful than others in bringing someone to slavery. For me, food might be a bigger pull. For others pot might be that way.

You have curbed or controlled "FOOD", but STILL use it, right?  Why can't this approach be applied, with marijuana?

In my many experiences with marijuana, IT did not lead me to try other substances... (in honesty I have tried other substances, though not many) my FLESH prompted me.  It is MAN's opinion (in general), that using one substance "leads them" to another... :rolleye:  The FLESH desires to explore the WORLD, and in that exploration, are often found detrimental things.

Hey... I tried Beer... and also tried wine, then hard liquor.  Even though I "tried" these, I do not use wine or hard liquor, but I do still have a beer...  :dontknow:  Did beer lead me?  NO way.  Curiosity of other things in the World, "led me"...

I tried riding a tricycle as a kid, then went to bikes... but never got strung out on  motorcycles... same-same if you ask me.

Quote from: willieH
I meant by "SILENCE", that GOD chose not to mention Marijuana in the written WORD, neither did He note MISUSE of it, nor did He note any directive concerning it... i.e. --> "silence".  If NOTHING is said... then NOTHING is said.

Yes I agree, in the written word it is silent. However, the living Word is given for guidance in our daily lives, who is not silent. That was my point.

The "Living WORD"?  Is not the WORD as WRITTEN, the "LIVING WORD"?

You are welcome to your observations, and I condemn you not for them... however...

If what IS WRITTEN is embellished by ones "feelings of being led" into areas or subject matter, ...where the WRITTEN WORD is silent, ...well, SORRY ...but I see such as ADDITION to it.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:


Offline willieH

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #113 on: November 27, 2009, 12:40:23 AM »
willieH: Hi sister M... :hithere:

Thanks for your reply...  :grin:

Marijuana is not the mild mannered drug it's portrayed to be.  It can have a lot of bad side effects.  In particular, the brains of children are growing and developing until 25 years of age, and it can negatively impact the developing brain by changing the brain chemistry and structural integrity of the brain which can result in behavior problems, mental problems,  addiction, and other problems for the individual and society.

What a crock!  Just because some "study" somewhere noted this, it is therefore to be believed?  Politicians love this mindset!

Marijuana side effects come from smoking or consuming the drug and marijuana side effects influence the mind and body of the user. Marijuana side effects can be as seemingly innocent as an increased appetite to as life threatening as lung cancer. Increased likelihood for accidents is also one of the marijuana side effects. Studies show that 6 to 11 percent of fatal accidents are contributed to by marijuana side effects. Other external marijuana side effects include legal problems, work and financial problems and troubles at home.

Marijuana is most often smoked but can be eaten or steeped in tea to drink. Most over-doses occur actually when the drug is eaten because it is easier to consume a large dose all at once. Marijuana side effects from an overdose include toxic psychosis including hallucinations, delusions and a loss of self-identification. When smoked, marijuana is rolled up into a cigarette called a joint or smoked in a pipe or water pipe called a bong. Marijuana has many street names like pot, hash, chronic and there are many paraphernalia available to smoke it.

I have both eaten and smoked it as a teen, up to and PAST 25.  And yet, here I am... 64, debating logically and intelligently with others here...

Over 11 million people smoked marijuana last month. Many may not have severe marijuana side effects from taking the drug but many people will. Marijuana side effects include physical problems like breathing difficulties and deteriorating physical abilities. Despite a popular belief, marijuana side effects speed up the heart, blood and breathing rate. The body is taxed more and this speeds up the aging process just like methamphetamines do. The marijuana side effects from this extra exertion on the body include a higher risk for lung cancer, heart attacks and strokes.

Marijuana side effects also wreak havoc on the brain when the drug is used habitually. The natural chemical balance of the brain is disrupted affecting the pleasure centers and regulatory systems. The ability to learn, remember and adapt quickly to changes is impaired by marijuana use. Depression often occurs with marijuana usage, which feeds into the cycle of more drug use to treat the pain created by drug use. This cycle of addiction is very powerful and users soon find that they cannot stop using the drug even if they want to.

More hearsay and opinion... There is NO ADDICTION to marijuana.  We as humans are creatures of HABIT... Some like to do this, others that... that we habitually do one thing or another does NOT equate to ADDICTION.

ad·dic·tion
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈdik-shən, a-\
Function: noun
Date: 1599
1 : the quality or state of being addicted <addiction to reading>
2 : compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance (as heroin, nicotine, or alcohol) characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal; broadly : persistent compulsive use of a substance known by the user to be harmful


This definition in Merriam-Webster, is probably a bit dated... as there are noted -- "SEX ADDICTS" and "SUGAR ADDICTS" and others which do NOT produce "WITHDRAWAL"...

:omg: I would think that most here OPEN and READ their Bibles HABITUALLY! -- EVERY DAY!  Shall we consider ourselves as ADDICTED to the Bible?  :pointlaugh:

This word (addiction) is purposely MISUSED by Governmental agencies to their benefit.  ADDICTION is the continuing indulgence in something which is HARMFUL... and if they LIE enough, speaking their fallacies to the uniformed public, then the LIE becomes accepted as the "truth" and is believed and carelessly parroted to others without investigation! 

THIS is what is wrong in Chrisitianity!  The "churches" and TV evangelists are selling their impure version of the "gospel", based upon FEAR... and so the MANY shall face CHRIST -- thinking they are in, and have been preaching the TRUTH -- and all along, they have peddled to the WORLD that God so LOVED... iniquity -- Matt 7:22-23

Simply because they did NOT bother to research the words of others (as are noted in this post), and resultingly they, themselves were found immersed in FALLACY... and even preaching it to others!

Marijuana addiction is a progressive disease and marijuana side effects include withdrawal and obsessive thought with the drug when it is not made available.

More cr_p... :mnah:

Hmmm... I smoked marijuana continuously for YEARS, and then QUIT -- PERIOD!  NO "withdrawal" , NO addiction, NO disease, NO "obsessive thoughts"... Please!  :thumbdown:

Addiction is identified as a compulsive, uncontrollable craving for the drug even with pending negative consequences. Often users will attempt to stop smoking marijuana for an important event such as a job interview or court hearing and find themselves using very close or just before the event. This act goes beyond a flexing of willpower. This describes being enveloped by a disease that has taken control and needs to be treated.

Please! -- :laughing7: -- the uninformed, INFORMING the uninformed!  :wacko2: :blahgreen:  :dunno: :blah:

http://www.marijuana-addiction.net/marijuana-side-effects.htm

No offense sister Molly, but any ATHEIST can post a computer link which spouts and support themselves and their viewpoint.  Because they have a website with these LIES, does not prove a thing...

If you have NOT experienced marijuana... then you are relying on hearsay from one person or another...

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline willieH

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #114 on: November 27, 2009, 01:42:45 AM »
willieH: Hi brother S...

A bit of retracing:

Singing can edify God sure. All the others are pretty neutral. I didn't say that something neutral is sinful if it doesn't actively edify God. Is that what you got? This thread is about Marijuana smoking.

Actually USE of marijuana is the subject.  Marijuana can be eaten, or tea made to be drank, as well...

Pot is an illegal mind altering drug.


Illegal in some places, not in others.  :dontknow:  Because MEN have deemed something as ILLEGAL, does not mean that it should be ILLEGAL.

Also, in the USA, one can LEGALLY use marijuana by PERSCRIPTION.  It is USEFUL and helpful in pain management and treatment of certain diseases...

As far as "MIND ALTERING"... that is an opinion.  I see it as an ENHANCEMENT.  I can tell you for sure, as a pro musician, that playing and singing within its use, produces magnificent sounds and performances.  Well above normal.  :thumbsup:

As to whether or not it is a drug... again, opinion.  It is a herb/weed created by God.  And has an inherent chemistry, as do all plants.

In naming them GOOD --- God gave us all the herbs (Gen 1)... marijuana is among them. :nod:

So if it were legal and someone smoked it would they be doing it to edify God or please the Adam in us? That is a decision people who wish to edify God have to make.

As has already been said... it is a matter of opinion, as to whether or not edification of God takes place in a given experience with marijuana.  I have on numerous occasions experienced edification of GOD, and conveyed it to others as well while using marijuana... Not to mention quite a few, very SPIRITUAL song creations... which served to edify Him.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline peacemaker

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #115 on: November 27, 2009, 05:05:21 AM »

  It's only a matter...
 
    ... of taxation?

"A government's practice of collecting money from citizens and businesses within its domain to support its operations."

Lupac

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #116 on: November 27, 2009, 05:34:16 AM »
I'm glad Molly was/is open minded enough to watch The Union. I don't see how she can stand by her argument after watching it. (I recommend it for Seth too.) Now, as for Seth, I'm going to say a few things that I hope he won't get mad at. From what I understand, he thinks the weed made him think of impure thoughts, or something like that. With all due respect, it can't "make" you do anything you already don't want to do. I find that some people (Mostly Baptists.) like to blame a substance for a problem they have, rather then themselves. I.E. "It's that bottle of alcohol that's evil, not me." Now, I don't think Seth believes that, and if he thinks that God doesn't want him to smoke, more power to him.  :thumbsup:

Offline jabcat

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #117 on: November 27, 2009, 07:05:02 AM »
If giving ourselves over to another authority or influence wasn't an issue with substances, I don't believe there would be such explicit instructions in the scriptures about not being drunk with wine.  Instead, we are to be filled with the Spirit.

I can't judge anyone else though, I have my hands full examining my own heart.  

9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
10 "I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve."
...is the man who gains riches by unjust means.
When his life is half gone, they will desert him, and in the end he will prove to be a fool.

13 O LORD, the hope of Israel, all who forsake you will be put to shame. Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust because they have forsaken the LORD, the spring of living water.
14 Heal me, O LORD, and I will be healed; save me and I will be saved, for you are the one I praise.

James.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 07:21:58 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Online Seth

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #118 on: November 27, 2009, 09:17:15 AM »

Quote
Quote from: willieH
Let me ask you, ...what if the OPPOSITE is manifest bro?  What if I were to use marijuana, and a song or speech which EDIFIES and EXALTS GOD, proceeds from me? (which it has)... what then?

I look forward to your answer to this...  :thanks:

In that case, I would not be inclined to think it sinful generally speaking and if it is legal, like wine.


Quote
With all due respect to your knowledge and dedication to God, brother S...

Examination of SELF must be according to the measure of the WORD of God, bro... where NO MEASURE appears, then the examination is therefore not employing the WORD of God in making that measurement. 

The "conscience" is the HOLY SPIRIT which TESTIFIES of the WORD... If no TESTIMONY exists in the portion of GOD'S WORD which has been provided to us, then the "conscience" is dependent upon "feelings", and/or "teachings" of others, EXTERNAL of the TESTIMONY of the WORD.

 In the case of the written word not calling out a specific thing as a sin, the LIVING WORD is the guiding factor, at least for me.

Quote
In 64 years of life, 33 of which have been dedicated to God, ...it is my observation that  many "feel" that the "leading" of the Holy Spirit can be above and outside of the WORD, however... if there is nothing in the WORD which IS the TESTIMONY of CHRIST -- Rev 1:2 -- John 1:1 -- 1 Cor 1:6 -- concerning this "leading", then this is resorting to an EXTERNAL, individual speculation...

There is nothing that the Living Spirit would do to contradict the written word, however, in the case of silence in the Word regarding what can affect the conscious, the Living God is the guide unto righteousness however he leads each man. IMHO


Quote
The Holy Spirit teaches and TESTIFIES of the TRUTH that is IN THE WORD... [CHRIST]

If the WORD is SILENT, then the Holy Spirit is not making "testimony"... for His TESTIMONY is the WORD...

The Spirit also provides salvation from sin teaching us to deny ungodliness through chastisement in this present age. Now the question becomes "what is ungodly?" That is what the Spirit will enlighten into each man.



Quote
That the WORD speaks NOTHING of it... it is an Unscriptural exception which is not expounded upon one way or the other.  Concerning behaviors or indulgences that are not identified in the WORD, we must as disciples... exercise moderation (Paul noted to take a little wine for thy stomachs sake, CHRIST turned the water into wine, marijuana is not mentioned, etc.)

But it is an exception that you noted, which I believe was a pretty significant exception and was really the whole point of my statement.


Quote
In this case "what is RIGHT" is left to a matter of opinion, Seth...  For the WORD does not set guidelines concerning this subject.

One is only LED by the Spirit, in relation to that which is WRITTEN.  If nothing is WRITTEN, then the SPIRIT has (by the Father been provided) NO TESTIMONY to lead one TO "what is RIGHT", concerning a given thing.  Therefore, as Scripture notes OVER INDULGENCE is NOT acceptable in the sight of God concerning things that ARE addressed in it, we can thereby deduce this principle as applicable to other things which ARE NOT addressed in it -- i.e. -- moderation.

As I said, the Spirit is for deliverance from sin. That is why it was provided for us.



Quote
The WORD is also SILENT concerning the use of SUGAR, ...Sugar causes tooth decay... does one abstain from its use because one is guided by the SPIRIT?  Or is common sense employed by the user, as to how (and how much) SUGAR is used?  :dontknow:

I don't believe it is a dilemma. I believe God does guide in daily life choices. That just may be a point in which we disagree.


Quote
And because of the SILENCE or lack of DIRECTIVE concerning this subject in the WORD, upon WHAT do you rest, and upon WHAT do you note is "MISUSE", Seth?

I'd like to know so I can be sure to understand what YOU BELIEVE to be MISUSE.  And upon WHAT you base this measure and belief.

Misuse would be anything that leads away from: "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" Titus 1:12 and other many like scriptures as that.


Quote
Because some "intellectual" (@Wikipedia) has given an opinion, you use IT as a measure of what IS or IS NOT correct in arguement.
 

No.  :dontknow:

Quote
God's WORD notes that where no LAW is, no "IMPUTATION" is either...  :dontknow:

However, there is something called "the Law of Liberty" and that which brings one into slavery, whether the word "marijuana" (and I have indeed known people in slavery to it) is specifically mentioned falls into the category of being contrary to that liberty.


Quote
Your experience certainly does NOT reflect my own which has spanned 64 years.

Looks like it.  :dontknow:

Quote
(1) Did you ever have an IMPURE thought PRIOR to using marijuana?
Yes. However pot use made it more difficult to control my thoughts and be soberminded, and therefore became a part of the machine within me that lusted against things of the Spirit.

Quote
(2) Have you ever had an IMPURE thought AFTER abstaining from marijuana use?  If you have, then the possibility remains that your deduction is mislaid.

Yes I have, but again, a factor in making it difficult to control my thoughts has been removed.



Quote
That still does not answer the question. :mnah:  I did not ask you to make a "judgment", I asked you [paraphrase] "how can "marijuana" be part of something annointed"?

I think i answered above.


Quote
If what IS WRITTEN is embellished by ones "feelings of being led" into areas or subject matter, ...where the WRITTEN WORD is silent, ...well, SORRY ...but I see such as ADDITION to it.

Very well, but I believe the Spirit does lead in daily life against things that cause people to think and act contrary to the standard of conduct taught in the scripture.  :dontknow:

Peace bro. Love you.  :HeartThrob:





[/quote]

Online Seth

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #119 on: November 27, 2009, 09:22:21 AM »


Quote
Illegal in some places, not in others.  :dontknow:  Because MEN have deemed something as ILLEGAL, does not mean that it should be ILLEGAL.

Just because we think something shouldn't be illegal doesn't mean we shouldn't be obedient and compliant with those laws. If you believe smoking pot is the Lord's bidding than do it even if it is illegal. However, I think the word is clear that we should obey the laws and respect authority as long as it does not conflict with us obeying God. When the laws of the land do not conflict with God's commandments to us, we should obey those laws.

Quote
Also, in the USA, one can LEGALLY use marijuana by PERSCRIPTION.  It is USEFUL and helpful in pain management and treatment of certain diseases...

Yup, duly noted.

Quote
As to whether or not it is a drug... again, opinion.  It is a herb/weed created by God.  And has an inherent chemistry, as do all plants.

Technically speaking it is a drug. That doesn't make it bad. So is aspirin.


Offline willieH

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #120 on: November 27, 2009, 09:27:06 AM »
willieH: Hi James...  :happy3:

If giving ourselves over to another authority or influence wasn't an issue with substances, I don't believe there would be such explicit instructions in the scriptures about not being drunk with wine.  Instead, we are to be filled with the Spirit.

Drinking wine or strong drink IN EXCESS is the explicit instruction of the Scriptures... and this would also apply to smoking or eating marijuana.  One can excessively use this substance... and be treading upon instruction of Scripture which in several things, notes that EXCESSIVE use, is the problem...

Quote
I can't judge anyone else though, I have my hands full examining my own heart.


Well said.  Anyone who observes the WORD, will find it SILENT concerning marijuana. Therefore it becomes an individual issue, which as I said before... must not be imposed on others, just as you have just noted.  :thumbsup: 

Quote
9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
10 "I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve."


We shall reap what we sow brother.  No one is debating this issue.  But the issue of using marijuana is not a "deed" which is reckoned by the WORD as "deserving" anything one way or the other.

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

noname

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #121 on: November 27, 2009, 09:41:23 AM »
so what are the fruits from using MJ vs alcohol and other drugs?
does it make you hit your wife...write someone off on the roads...get all aggressive and violent?

I say damn those evil aggressive murderous insidious rastafarians...
send them to Afghanistan...they'll show us how to win a war!

Offline willieH

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #122 on: November 27, 2009, 10:43:38 AM »
willieH: Hi brother Seth...  :cloud9:

Quote
Quote from: willieH
Let me ask you, ...what if the OPPOSITE is manifest bro?  What if I were to use marijuana, and a song or speech which EDIFIES and EXALTS GOD, proceeds from me? (which it has)... what then?

I look forward to your answer to this...  :thanks:

In that case, I would not be inclined to think it sinful generally speaking and if it is legal, like wine.


This STILL does not answer the question... :mnah:  I did not ask you if marijuana was "sinful" in general, nor about legalities...

I asked you... that if an ANNOINTED message comes forth and marijuana is involved... what do have to say of this?  :dontknow:

Does this answer mean that I can write ANNOINTED message or song, or edify God and use marijuana while doing this, ONLY if I live in a country that it is LEGAL:mshock:

This would mean that GOD is confined to ANNOINTING on the [PHYSICAL] geographical location, and is further confined to the Administration of MANS LAW... not His...

If that is what you mean by this answer, I ain't BUYIN' it... GOD is not dictated to by men... His ANNOINTED blessings are not according to EARTHLY position or wealth or proximities!

He blesses us according to HIS WILL, when HE DECIDES to bless us, and IN HIS TIME -- ANNOINTING is shed upon us to fill our NEED and/or necessary for our growth IN HIM.

Quote from: willieH
With all due respect to your knowledge and dedication to God, brother S...

Examination of SELF must be according to the measure of the WORD of God, bro... where NO MEASURE appears, then the examination is therefore not employing the WORD of God in making that measurement. 

The "conscience" is the HOLY SPIRIT which TESTIFIES of the WORD... If no TESTIMONY exists in the portion of GOD'S WORD which has been provided to us, then the "conscience" is dependent upon "feelings", and/or "teachings" of others, EXTERNAL of the TESTIMONY of the WORD.

In the case of the written word not calling out a specific thing as a sin, the LIVING WORD is the guiding factor, at least for me.

No offense bro, but this is an evasive answer as well...

Please note what YOU consider to be the -- "LIVING WORD", and (if NOT the BIBLE) --  WHERE is this "WORD" found?  :Chinscratch:

Quote from: willieH
In 64 years of life, 33 of which have been dedicated to God, ...it is my observation that  many "feel" that the "leading" of the Holy Spirit can be above and outside of the WORD, however... if there is nothing in the WORD which IS the TESTIMONY of CHRIST -- Rev 1:2 -- John 1:1 -- 1 Cor 1:6 -- concerning this "leading", then this is resorting to an EXTERNAL, individual speculation...

Quote
There is nothing that the Living Spirit would do to contradict the written word, however, in the case of silence in the Word regarding what can affect the conscious, the Living God is the guide unto righteousness however he leads each man. IMHO

It appears you rely upon SPIRITUAL revelation, which is OUTSIDE the WRITTEN WORD...

That is your choice.  To me, this is either the practice of ADDITION or SUBTRACTION of the WRITTEN WORD...

As always, it is not my intention to change or convince you in any way.  Your life and the conduct within it, is an issue between you and God.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: willieH
The Holy Spirit teaches and TESTIFIES of the TRUTH that is IN THE WORD... [CHRIST]

If the WORD is SILENT, then the Holy Spirit is not making "testimony"... for His TESTIMONY is the WORD...

The Spirit also provides salvation from sin teaching us to deny ungodliness through chastisement in this present age. Now the question becomes "what is ungodly?" That is what the Spirit will enlighten into each man.

And this is done by the REVELATION which is availed in the WRITTEN WORD.  If "revelation" is found OUTSIDE the WORD, then it is in question.  For we can "play" with this or that, and then say that GOD revealed something which was not founded in what we KNOW is His WORD.  This is where CULT RELIGION is born.  A messenger says he/she has revelation... and does not found this revelation in the WORD of YHVH...

Quote from: willieH
That the WORD speaks NOTHING of it... it is an Unscriptural exception which is not expounded upon one way or the other.  Concerning behaviors or indulgences that are not identified in the WORD, we must as disciples... exercise moderation (Paul noted to take a little wine for thy stomachs sake, CHRIST turned the water into wine, marijuana is not mentioned, etc.)

But it is an exception that you noted, which I believe was a pretty significant exception and was really the whole point of my statement.

The "exception" bro... is the conscience.  If you esteem marijuana use to be sinful, then it is sinful to YOU.  And this measure is personal.  Not to be imposed upon another. -- Rom 14:14

Stay where you are concerning this brother Seth... you have much life ahead of you to learn... and in that life, you will find that as you step into your years... there shall be "understandings" which you now hold, which you shall abandon.  Life is a process... and you are in the youth of your process.  You have yet to step upon the stones of time that I have already traversed.

That does not mean that I am right and you are wrong.  What it means is that both of us must be seeking REVELATION from God IN HIS WORD, instead of depending upon ourselves, and our "feelings"

Peter was so instructed in -- Acts 10 -- to abandon what he had held most of his life, for there was REVELATION that was given him TO abandon...  :dontknow:  PAUL -- Acts 9 -- experienced the same as he stepped upon the stones of time... and you and I are no different.  For we both seek to KNOW God... and to KNOW what we presently DO NOT KNOW.

Quote from: willieH
In this case "what is RIGHT" is left to a matter of opinion, Seth...  For the WORD does not set guidelines concerning this subject.

One is only LED by the Spirit, in relation to that which is WRITTEN.  If nothing is WRITTEN, then the SPIRIT has (by the Father been provided) NO TESTIMONY to lead one TO "what is RIGHT", concerning a given thing.  Therefore, as Scripture notes OVER INDULGENCE is NOT acceptable in the sight of God concerning things that ARE addressed in it, we can thereby deduce this principle as applicable to other things which ARE NOT addressed in it -- i.e. -- moderation.

As I said, the Spirit is for deliverance from sin. That is why it was provided for us.

The "SPIRIT" is much more than a "deliverer" brother.  The SPIRIT of YHVH is ALL encompassing, and about WORKING ALL THINGS, part of which is "deliverance". 

Quote from: willieH
The WORD is also SILENT concerning the use of SUGAR, ...Sugar causes tooth decay... does one abstain from its use because one is guided by the SPIRIT?  Or is common sense employed by the user, as to how (and how much) SUGAR is used?  :dontknow:

I don't believe it is a dilemma. I believe God does guide in daily life choices. That just may be a point in which we disagree.


Though sovereignty is not allowed to be discussed at TM... I must say (and you are welcome to disagree) each and ALL of our "choices" are foreordained, and DECLARED...  We are "choosing" according to that DECLARATION... God is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS...

Our "choosing" does not move God... God moves our choices.  The POTTER dictates the molding of the clay... the clay is resistant by nature... but must submit to the will and timing of the POTTER, as well as becoming the END PRODUCT of HIS making, not of oneself.  Again... there are things you are yet to find, in your future bro...  :happygrin:

Quote from: willieH
And because of the SILENCE or lack of DIRECTIVE concerning this subject in the WORD, upon WHAT do you rest, and upon WHAT do you note is "MISUSE", Seth?

I'd like to know so I can be sure to understand what YOU BELIEVE to be MISUSE.  And upon WHAT you base this measure and belief.

Misuse would be anything that leads away from: "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world" Titus 1:12 and other many like scriptures as that.

There is no basis for this.  I repeat my question which you have evaded several times... When EDIFICATION and SPIRITUAL REVELATION is found in a message which is delivered by one using marijuana... shall you disregard that because marijuana was in use?

Quote from: willieH
God's WORD notes that where no LAW is, no "IMPUTATION" is either...  :dontknow:

However, there is something called "the Law of Liberty" and that which brings one into slavery, whether the word "marijuana" (and I have indeed known people in slavery to it) is specifically mentioned falls into the category of being contrary to that liberty.


Did you really say this, Seth?  :bigGrin:

The LAW of LIBERTY is the LAW of GOD... pretty plainly noted in James.  That "law" does not discuss marijuana. 

It is your Unscriptural opinion that MARIJUANA is an "ENSLAVING" entity.  Just as you might argue that ALCOHOL is an "ENSLAVING" entity.  And therefore bunch these 2 together and come up with SIN.

It is the UNSUBMITTED and mischoosing, misled, mind and heart that ENSLAVES, not the substances of marijuana and alcohol.  For the HEART by nature is DESPARATELY WICKED -- Jer 17:9

The HEART which is submitted to CHRIST is in a state of FREEDOM... where ANNOINTING is found...

As I said, I have composed several tunes which are definitely ANNOINTED... and have blessed many hearts... Filled with the LOVE of God, Peace, and the truth of the Gospel... and marijuana was used during the composition, and/or recording of them.

Quote from: willieH
Your experience certainly does NOT reflect my own which has spanned 64 years.

Looks like it.  :dontknow:

Yep! :nod:

Quote from: willieH
(1) Did you ever have an IMPURE thought PRIOR to using marijuana?

Yes. However pot use made it more difficult to control my thoughts and be soberminded, and therefore became a part of the machine within me that lusted against things of the Spirit.

I do not argue against your testimony Seth.  I believe you when you say that marijuana contributes to this dilemma.  However, the fact that you had this same thing (impure thinking) PRIOR or ASIDE from marijuana use, exposes that as a "SOBER" problem as well... 

Quote from: willieH
(2) Have you ever had an IMPURE thought AFTER abstaining from marijuana use?  If you have, then the possibility remains that your deduction is mislaid.

Yes I have, but again, a factor in making it difficult to control my thoughts has been removed.

Thanks for your honesty... this further cements that marijuana is not the "cause" for both before and after use,  (aside from marijuana) you have had this same problem occur...  Learn about yourself bro... there is no shame in learning.

You cannot blame marijuana for IMPURE thinking, for its experience has occured aside from use.  The IMPURE thinking, is prompting from the FLESH, whether or not marijuana is used.

Quote from: willieH
That still does not answer the question. :mnah:  I did not ask you to make a "judgment", I asked you [paraphrase] "how can "marijuana" be part of something annointed"?

I think i answered above.

No.  You did not... and still haven't. 

Quote from: willieH
If what IS WRITTEN is embellished by ones "feelings of being led" into areas or subject matter, ...where the WRITTEN WORD is silent, ...well, SORRY ...but I see such as ADDITION to it.

Quote
Very well, but I believe the Spirit does lead in daily life against things that cause people to think and act contrary to the standard of conduct taught in the scripture.  :dontknow:

Yes... but that "leading" is the TESTIMONY found IN the Scripture... not in the MIND/heart of the individual.

The SPIRIT leads and exalts the WORD, testifying of IT... not introducing things outside of it.

Peace bro. Love you.  :HeartThrob:

You ARE and always WILL BE, my dear friend.  Met you once... and recall vividly, your Love, knowledge of, and appreciation for God!  :friendstu:

Please know that I only mean to help those who are reading, to abandon the Babylonian chains placed about them.  Some of which are the myths which deduce the substances of ALCOHOL and MARIJUANA -- as SINFUL.

They are BOTH part of the creation of God, and the KNOWLEDGE of GOD... which is GOOD -- and -- EVIL.

I do NOT support the "party" aspect concerning marijuana or alcohol... only social, moderate and disciplined use.  If one is submitted to God and His WORD... then the uses of these, shall remain in moderation if used at all...

Where the WORD is silent... we must not EMBELLISH with our opinions and or "convictions". 

It is perfectly fine to find individual conviction for any given thing...

EXAMPLE -- I eat steak, but hold nothing against a VEGAN for abstaining, and respect his right to do so... That "right" however is NOT a license to JUDGE me for doing the opposite that he chooses to do.  Nor does that "judgment" find any basis in the Scriptures...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline willieH

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #123 on: November 27, 2009, 10:56:13 AM »
willieH: Hi noname...  :cloud9:

so what are the fruits from using MJ vs alcohol and other drugs?

"Other drugs" are not under discussion here bro...  It is a FACT that WINE is a digestive aid... As far as marijuana goes...  It is only known as a DRUG by the insistence of GOVERNMENT...

Marijuana is a plant which GOD created AS it naturally -- IS! ...and is an edible, drinkable herb aside from smoking it.  What is the "fruit" of OREGANO?  Or what is the "fruit" of CINNAMON?  Or what is the "fruit" or PARSLEY?

These spices/herbs are used in flavoring foods, and making food appealing to the eye.  That's about it.  So, shall we abstain from their use because this is the extent of their use?  :dontknow:

does it make you hit your wife...write someone off on the roads...get all aggressive and violent?

I have never witnessed such behavior in marijuana users... and as far as alcohol goes... wife abuse is prevalent by men, aside from alcohol use as well...

An abusive person does not require the use of a substance in order to generate abuse, and often does not.

Just because there are cases where alcohol is involved, does not mean the alcohol caused this, especially if the alcohol were used in moderation.  :dontknow:

Marijuana, nor alcohol "makes" a man abuse his wife...  This misbehavior is born of the HEART, not of a plant or a drink.  A glass of wine never MADE anyone DO anything.  :mnah:

I say damn those evil aggressive murderous insidious rastafarians...
send them to Afghanistan...they'll show us how to win a war!

 :mshock: hmmm... sounds like pretty aggressive talk brother... not sure what you mean by it... :dunno:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

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Re: #2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?
« Reply #124 on: November 27, 2009, 11:13:15 AM »
hey WillieH,
excuse my twisted sense of humour...I was saying these things tongue in cheek :winkgrin:
I've never seen marijuana users get up to the destructive things some alcohol users get into...that's what i was trying to show...not that i'm saying all alcohol users do get violent, but many do...and alcohol is like the fuse that starts the fire...and the thing is alcohol is legal...that's why i was on about the fruits...
if you look at statistics how many road accidents are caused by alcohol abuse, domestic violence etc etc
you do not get these things type of things with mellowed out mj smokers

with regards to rastafarians, i was truying to point out they they would never hurt a fly when stoned or not...but many "straight" people would not flinch when killing another human being

here in africa mj has been used for centuries as medicine, stress relievant, social interaction etc and has never been seen as a drug in the sense that heroin would be, so no convincing necessary here my friend :thumbsup: