#2 -- Is use of Marijuana, SINFUL?

[Seth]

And this my disagrement with your view. When I ask you if walking is edifying God you say that's neutral. But if it's about a joint you suddenly speak about pleasing the Adam.

That's really not how this conversation has gone. My original post was not in response to your questions. What I had originally said is that each person must examine if smoking a joint will edify God or please the Adam in them. Basically, as I clarified, if someone is wanting to edify God (ie embody his character) does smoking a joint HINDER that in favor of pleasing the flesh instead. If it does, then it's an idol of the flesh even for that moment. If not, then not. That wasn't a "sudden" point I was making. It was part of what I was saying to begin with.

There is more in life that constantly praying. Doesn't God allow us to relax once in a while?

That doesn't help me understand what you mean by "standard of life." I may have a different view on what the standard of life really is so that would cause an unnecessary disagreement if we aren't even talking about the same thing.

So isn't that excatly what I wrote before?It's not the joint but the sin. Food isn't a sin. But if it turns glottonous then it is.

Eating food isn't a sin. And neither did I say that smoking a joint was a sin in and of itself. I think you assumed that.

Doesn't say exactly what I said. Being drunk is no problem. But if you start doing unlawful things then things become a problem.

Being given over to drunkenness is "a problem." Are you going to be consistent concerning gluttony over food as with gluttony over wine?

Sure but that can be said about anything. But in this thread Willie asked if a joint is sinful; and that's what I talking about.
And a fully agree with willie: NO!

And that is what every believer must do, examine it within themselves and decide. I say, if it becomes an idol, even by smoking A joint, then yes. Yet, again, that is for someone to examine themselves to decide.

[WhiteWings]

<...snip....>
When reading your reply sometimes I get the idea you have no clue about what I'm trying to say.
But sometimes we seem to agree. So maybe it's best I just summarize what I think you mean.

There is absolutely no sin in many things like food, alcohol and drugs.
But if it in some way makes the user loose control and start doing things God has forbidden then the effect is clearly wrong.
And even if you are still not sinning in any way when being totally stoned it's no good idea to be stoned 'whole your life' because then you have no time left to worship God and you basicly only please the Adam.

But pleasing the Adam, without sinning, once in a while is fine.

Is that a summary you can agree on Seth?

[Cardinal]

  It's not hard to determine what is an idol or not. Can you lay it down? No? Then it's an idol. Even that which is good can be an idol if you're unwilling or unable to lay it down.

Gideon had to lay down both the cake (good) and the goat (bad) on the altar before God would use him to destroy the Midianites (means division or that which divides us from His Spirit).

Man has many of them; fortunately for us, He does not make us lay them all down at once. Blessings...

PS. NOT talking to ANYONE in particular.....

[Seth]

When reading your reply sometimes I get the idea you have no clue about what I'm trying to say.

LOL, I was just thinking the same thing. To me it seemed that anything other than a big NO with exclamation points in response to Willie's question constitutes "pot is sin" to you.  

An old Shakespearian saying: "The lady doth protest too much methinks."

There is absolutely no sin in many things like food, alcohol and drugs.
But if it in some way makes the user loose control and start doing things God has forbidden then the effect is clearly wrong.
And even if you are still not sinning in any way when being totally stoned it's no good idea to be stoned 'whole your life' because then you have no time left to worship God and you basicly only please the Adam.

But pleasing the Adam, without sinning, once in a while is fine.

Is that a summary you can agree on Seth?

Except the part about being "stoned" as I see that being given over and submitting the mind to another authority. And we may have a different idea of what "pleasing Adam" means. But basically you got the gyst.

[Seth]

It's not hard to determine what is an idol or not. Can you lay it down? No? Then it's an idol. Even that which is good can be an idol if you're unwilling or unable to lay it down.

Gideon had to lay down both the cake (good) and the goat (bad) on the altar before God would use him to destroy the Midianites (means division or that which divides us from His Spirit).

Man has many of them; fortunately for us, He does not make us lay them all down at once. Blessings...

Good post. 

[Molly]

It's not hard to determine what is an idol or not. Can you lay it down? No? Then it's an idol. Even that which is good can be an idol if you're unwilling or unable to lay it down.

Gideon had to lay down both the cake (good) and the goat (bad) on the altar before God would use him to destroy the Midianites (means division or that which divides us from His Spirit).

Man has many of them; fortunately for us, He does not make us lay them all down at once. Blessings...

PS. NOT talking to ANYONE in particular.....

You should write a book.

[WhiteWings]

Hopefully in English

[WhiteWings]

Except the part about being "stoned" as I see that being given over and submitting the mind to another authority.

Then it's wrong. That's also why I purposely added: "not sinning in any way"
Some people are very harmless when stoned. They just laugh, sleep or sing  

And we may have a different idea of what "pleasing Adam" means.

For me it means giving over to earthly things. Sinful nature.

But basically you got the gyst.

Mods!!! Ban him. He's calling me Luke 12:1-ish
Just kinding Seth.

[jabcat]

...being "stoned" as I see that being given over and submitting the mind to another authority.

I agree with this.  Also the same about being drunk.  We're explicitely instructed in several different passages to avoid this, that it is sin.  Not so much a gray area as some of the discussion, IMO.  Sort of a clear "line" we can cross.  My  

[Seth]

Then it's wrong. That's also why I purposely added: "not sinning in any way"
Some people are very harmless when stoned. They just laugh, sleep or sing  

I actually used to be one of those people. Now, I don't want my mind altered or submitted to any other influence but the higher mind of Christ. Not that I am always successful, but that is what I was talking about or getting at. That's is why I think a "yes or no" answer to the original question doesn't do enough. Simply answering "no" to the question "is it sinful to use pot" is too blanket a statement as much as just saying "yes." There are conditions to consider.

And we may have a different idea of what "pleasing Adam" means.

For me it means giving over to earthly things. Sinful nature.

Ok. But you said "But pleasing the Adam, without sinning, once in a while is fine." If "Giving over to the sinful nature" is what it means, then one cannot please Adam WITHOUT sinning. To me, pleasing Adam is submitting one's mind to that which lusts against the Spirit and desires to be led of another. Things both legal and illegal can fall into that category.

But basically you got the gyst.

Mods!!! Ban him. He's calling me Luke 12:1-ish
Just kinding Seth.

[Seth]

...being "stoned" as I see that being given over and submitting the mind to another authority.

I agree with this.  Also the same about being drunk.  We're explicitely instructed in several different passages to avoid this, that it is sin.  Not so much a gray area as some of the discussion, IMO.  Sort of a clear "line" we can cross.  My  

Yes, and that line is really the big question mark in the convo. 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Ninja...

Thanks for your reply!  

Though I shall answer several of these posts, I choose to answer yours first...  

ive always thought it was, but as I began to revaluate my beliefs post and pre-universalism, I cant really come to any logical conclusion as to why, other than it can be harmful and addictive(but then again just about everything is potentially harmful and addictive...

To begin with... you are correct in saying "just about everything is potentially harmful" --- driving a car CAN be "harmful"... Or playing football... or eating... or using a power tool, ...so do we abstain from things simply on the basis that they CAN be harmful?  

Secondly, ...Marijuana is no more "addictive" than are your favorite TV shows... eating steak, or petting your dog.  These are things which you LIKE to do... and that you are comfortable with, and which you ENJOY.

When it comes to the PHYSICAL, this PLANT is NOT PHYSICALLY addictive... THAT thought is a LIE, taught by both Christians and Governmental agencies, and believed by those who have no personal knowledge of it.

why do we always single out weed and alcohal?).

I generated these 2 threads to bring out what the WORD notes as SIN, as compared to what MAN notes as SIN...

"Weed & alcohol", are two of the top 3 Christian taboo's (in my observation)... the other being Cigarette smoking... Which in part have basis for abstination, but mostly are rooted in the DIRECTIVES taught by the "church"... and THAT is why I chose to discuss these 2...

But there are many Christians that feel smoking cigarettes is not a sin...and thats considerably more harmful . I mean how often do you hear of people dying from cigarettes? now think about marijuana?

I really dont understand why marijuana isnt legal

Again, your thinking is aligned with truth... Many "christians" FEEL that smoking is a sin, and are quite willing to BACKBITE a brother or sister with their unfounded judgment (btw -- I am not a smoker.  I did smoke for 12yrs, but quit for good 33yrs ago)...

What studies "claim", is that smokers are near or at the top of the list when it comes to LUNG CANCER, HEART DISEASES and such.  So it is thereby determined that smoking causes these diseases... Which is not a totally LOGICAL conclusion, for a person which never touched a cigarette or even came in contact with "2nd hand smoke", can aquire these physical disorders, and die from them.

conclusion, due to my upbringing, I feel that its more "bad" than alcohal, but logically and biblically Im not sure how it is any more bad, if not less.

You again noted truth... your observation of Marijuana is based upon your "upbringing" (teaching in your youth), as to its [later in life] place in your own life, and how you might [later in life] observe its use by others...

So the (early) teaching you have embedded in you (which you cannot be faulted for), is the basis for how YOU ...now... "feel" about this substance.

"Biblically", it finds NO CONDEMNATION at all... "Logically" it must be KNOWN personally before logic can be applied to its use or abstination, otherwise -- as are many other teachings, ones opinion of it, sits upon HEARSAY...

To make one last comment... I do not see basis for the word "bad" to be attached to marijuana at all...

If I might be a bit facetious    for a moment... one could say that a STORE display of bubblegum is the foundation for the birth of THIEVERY in some children, and is therefore a EVIL practice, as the "availability" of the bubblegum is a TEMPTATION generated by them toward kids, of which shall later on, ...steal CARS and ROB BANKS...  

Therefore the bubblegum is the stepping stone to later and GROWING degenerative behaviors, which in part could be curbed by necessitating that STORES abstain from such bubblegum displays...  

...willieH  

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Anne...

It depends on who is using it.   For some people who feel in their conscience that it is wrong, it would be sinful.  But to certain others, it is not.
It has been shown to have medicinal uses in the realm of pain management.  And is legally prescribed for that purpose by some
doctors.   It's not illegal in every state.   It is legal in Holland and perhaps other parts of Europe.  Men can pass laws against anything they
want to control, but that is not what makes a thing sinful.

No, I don't smoke pot.  But I would not judge/condemn someone who did.

Anne

Best answer yet... The WORD actually makes this very same comment --

Rom 14:14  I know and am persuaded by the Lord JESUS,  that there is NOTHING -- unclean OF ITSELF: but to him that ESTEEMETH any THING to be UNCLEAN -- to HIM it is UNCLEAN

Marijuana is a plant, just like a carrot... made by God AS IT IS...

Men do not find carrots unlawful, but Marijuana (by most) is considered unlawful... and thusly they IMPOSE their "esteem" of this thing, upon the rest.

The "unlawfulness" of marijuana, is established by MEN, not God.   

GOD chose to bring this plant forth in His Creation -- AS IT IS.  It is purposeful for that reason (simply because HE decided it would have life in His Creation).

...willieH 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Molly

Thanks for your reply sis... 

Is doing something illegal sinful?

As has been noted... it depends upon where you live, as to whether or not it is "illegal"... and even then... that is based upon laws made by MEN, not God.

What if, in the future, MAN passes a LAW that states CHRIST cannot be worshipped, ...will you comply with their "LAW", or do the "illegal" thing Molly?

...willieH 

[WhiteWings]

Ok. But you said "But pleasing the Adam, without sinning, once in a while is fine." If "Giving over to the sinful nature" is what it means, then one cannot please Adam WITHOUT sinning. To me, pleasing Adam is submitting one's mind to that which lusts against the Spirit and desires to be led of another. Things both legal and illegal can fall into that category.

You spotted a big flaw in my defenition Seth.
Another try. It's ok to do things that please you, besides praying, that are not sinful.
So if we have 3 catagories: 1-Worship, 2-having fun, 3-sin then ofcourse we should never be in catagory 3.
But neither we should only be in catagory 2
The only catagory where we can unlimitted time in is catagory 1
So a good balance between 1 and 2 is needed.

[jabcat]

To make one last comment... I do not see basis for the word "bad" to be attached to marijuana at all...

That's an interesting topic in and of itself.  This is a "quick" reaction, a question/thought.  Although almost anything has the potential to be abused and therefor become sin for us (golf for me, for instance, if I let the desire to play control me, come first in my life, get in the way of other things I should be attending to) - it seems to me there may be a few things that are more likely to be problematic than others.  Alcohol for instance, in that in excess, it can chemically control our mind, and as Seth said, we would giving ourselves over to another authority - making us less able to control ourselves, our thought processes impaired, etc.  For instance, there are SPECIFIC warnings in the scriptures about the over use of alcohol...some general mention of other excesses or whether something's profitable or not, but alcohol specifically addressed.  I don't know of anything specific in which marijuana could be included, other than are there some things about "withcraft" or pharmacia (sp?) where mind/mood altering drugs could be included?   Not trying to be too legalistic, but don't want to miss something important either.  What do we think?  

Also, one I have trouble with and don't have figured out yet, I'm not to do anything that causes my brother to stumble - in effect, sacrificing my own desires and freedoms for the love of God and others?  That may be a whole other thread, but I believe does tie in here.

Thanks, James.

[WhiteWings]

...being "stoned" as I see that being given over and submitting the mind to another authority.

I agree with this.  Also the same about being drunk.  We're explicitely instructed in several different passages to avoid this, that it is sin.  Not so much a gray area as some of the discussion, IMO.  Sort of a clear "line" we can cross.  My  

James can you give me one or more verses that state that?
I remember wine mentioned quite often. But never in a negative way. Who drinks wine isn't per definition drunk so perhaps that's not relavant. So a verse that states drunk=crosing the line? Plz 

[Seth]

Another try. It's ok to do things that please you, besides praying, that are not sinful.
So if we have 3 catagories: 1-Worship, 2-having fun, 3-sin then ofcourse we should never be in catagory 3.
But neither we should only be in catagory 2
The only catagory where we can unlimitted time in is catagory 1
So a good balance between 1 and 2 is needed.

Yes, I definitely agree with that. And how we "examine ourselves whether we be in the faith" is a good guiding principle to see if 2 is bleeding into 3.

[Seth]

To make one last comment... I do not see basis for the word "bad" to be attached to marijuana at all...

That's an interesting topic in and of itself.  This is a "quick" reaction, a question/thought.  Although almost anything has the potential to be abused and therefor become sin for us (golf for me, for instance, if I let the desire to play control me, come first in my life, get in the way of other things I should be attending to) - it seems to me there may be a few things that are more likely to be problematic than others.  Alcohol for instance, in that in excess, it can chemically control our mind, and as Seth said, we would giving ourselves over to another authority - making us less able to control ourselves, our thought processes impaired, etc.  For instance, there are SPECIFIC warnings in the scriptures about the over use of alcohol...some general mention of other excesses or whether something's profitable or not, but alcohol specifically addressed.  I don't know of anything specific in which marijuana could be included, other than are there some things about "withcraft" or pharmacia (sp?) where mind/mood altering drugs could be included?   Not trying to be too legalistic, but don't want to miss something important either.  What do we think?  

Also, one I have trouble with and don't have figured out yet, I'm not to do anything that causes my brother to stumble - in effect, sacrificing my own desires and freedoms for the love of God and others?  That may be a whole other thread, but I believe does tie in here.

Thanks, James.

Great thoughts. Very balanced look at it.

[jabcat]

 

[Cardinal]

  Yeah, that is good, Jab.....I forgot the aspect of it about causing one's brother to stumble. 

[rosered]

 Seems like  Every bad  thing that  happens /this life  something  good comes out of it      

 

  maybe   ( things of  the FLESH) are the  dead works ?leaving those things behind us ..
 
 made me think of this ..

 
 
  So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:  

 1Cr 15:43   It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:  


 1Cr 15:44   It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Lupac...

Another great post!  

As I have first, second, and sometimes third hand knowledge of the subject, I see no reason why I should not be the first replier.   (Damn, I wasn't the first.)

   I like you Lupac!  

First of all, I do NOT believe it's a sin.

It's a plant that has many MANY values, it's a fiber, it's a medicine, and it's an awesome way to relax. Now, I think it can be sinful, in the same way sex can be sinful, if you commit adultery for example, or, maybe that's not a good comparison. Food can be sinful, if you're a glutton. Video games can be sinful if that's all you do with your life, and you ignore more important things. (Family, job, etc.) Likewise, cannabis (Not MJ.) can be sinful if that's all you're living for. If that makes sense.

Makes PERFECT sense bro...  

Now, there are two reasons mainstream Christians are opposed to cannabis, and it stems more from government propaganda than the Bible. First, they use the same verse (I can't remember it at the moment.) where Paul talks about not harming your own body, or something like that. (It's the main verse used against smoking tobacco also.) Most of the negative side effects of smoking cannabis are not true. Here's a great artical that says more than I ever could:

http://hightimes.com/news/ht_admin/5508

Now, there are some negative side effects with getting high. The worst is it messes with your short term memory. One time I got high, and I was trying to wash out the home-made bong I smoked out of. I don't really know how many times I washed it, because every time I got done, I'd forget what I was doing and wash it again. If that scares you, just don't smoke it.

Many people have "short term memory loss" that have never ever, smoked marijuana...  

Again, this is generalization... there are likely MANY things which contribute to this condition... as it is NOT specifically connected to marijuana users. (though it is something which occurs in some users).

As far as "getting high"... to me, it is not a "high"... I see it as an enhancement.

I can witness for a surety, that the senses are ENHANCED by its affects.

In my youth I used marijuana OFTEN... matter of fact, in many cases -- daily!  In my later years, it is very seldom that I have used it (more about that later!).

To this day, I still do not esteem it to be EVIL in ANY WAY.

The other argument against it by mainstream Christians is the fact that it is illegal. They have another verse written by Paul (I don't know this one ether, it might be in Romans.) which talks about obeying the laws that are placed above you. And to that, I have no argument unless someone can post the verse I'm talking about. 1 sec... Found it, Romans 13:1-5

As has been stated... it depends on where you live, as to whether it is "ILLEGAL" or not.

Well, I think this page sums it up nicely:

http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/understanding.htm

Therefore I see nothing wrong with smoking every once in a while. (Just don't get caught.)

I guess I could get into Sovereignty issue if not careful... but it is noteworthy that PHARAOH was RAISED by God to do what he did -- Rom 9:17

So this explanation (in the link above) of Rom 13, to me... is subjective -- If a ruler is found opposing God or His LAW -- then God shall make a way for those who believe.  The deliverance of the JEWS was not UP to Moses (for he requested their release SEVERAL times to no avail), neither was it UP to Pharaoh (for even though he DENIED the requests, ...when the time arrived for deliverance, it MANIFESTED)...

These 2 LEADERS, did not decide anything... they were BOTH under the POWER of GOD to show that ALL are subject to HIS POWER, and to whom HE gives it, for HIS PURPOSES... which is what (as I see it) that Rom 13 is stating.  

Even though Rom 13 was "written" to Believers... it still notes that ALL POWER is of GOD, and to whom HE distributes that POWER.



...willieH  

[Seth]

I just wanted to clarify something here. I don't think anyone here is saying that the actual PLANT is a sin, right? I think the question revolves around USAGE not the actual plant itself. I think everyone here would agree that the physical plant is not a sin in and of itself.

[WhiteWings]

In my youth I used marijuana OFTEN... matter of fact, in many cases -- daily!

That's why your posts are so colorful

In my later years, it is very seldom that I have used it (more about that later!).

Am I allowed one guess. Medication.

Another guess your starsign is Capricorn