willieH: Hi brother S...
"pre apology" for the LONG post.
Thanks for that answer bro, but it did not really answer my question...
For the record, ...what is the definition (within your perception) of the "embodiement of God's character" bro?
Being Christlike, soberminded, righteous, godly in this present age.
Thanks for the answer to that question, but you have yet to answer my first question bro... which was:
Let me ask you, ...what if the OPPOSITE is manifest bro? What if I were to use marijuana, and a song or speech which EDIFIES and EXALTS GOD, proceeds from me? (which it has)... what then?
I look forward to your answer to this...
This "embodiement" is a pretty big thing... and it only leads back to Him, that which HE sent out. If marijuana was put here by Him (and it was)... and He did not specify GUIDELINES for its use... then how can we determine MISUSE of it?
The leading of the Holy Spirit. And, by examining ourselves and our usage of it, which of course he guides us in. And anyone can say anything about what the Spirit leads them to do. But it's each person's issue according to their conscious.
With all due respect to your knowledge and dedication to God, brother S...
Examination of SELF must be according to the measure of the WORD
of God, bro... where NO MEASURE appears, then the examination is therefore not employing the WORD
of God in making that measurement.
The "conscience" is the HOLY SPIRIT which TESTIFIES of the WORD
... If no TESTIMONY exists in the portion of GOD'S WORD
which has been provided to us, then the "conscience" is dependent upon "feelings", and/or "teachings" of others, EXTERNAL of the TESTIMONY of the WORD
In 64 years of life, 33 of which have been dedicated to God, ...it is my observation that many "feel" that the "leading" of the Holy Spirit can be above and outside of the WORD
, however... if there is nothing in the WORD
-- Rev 1:2 -- John 1:1 -- 1 Cor 1:6
-- concerning this "leading", then this is resorting to an EXTERNAL, individual speculation...
The Holy Spirit is come to EXALT and ENLARGE upon what CHRIST
taught and did ---> John 15:26
-- but when the COMFORTER is come, whom I send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall TESTIFY of ME...
The Holy Spirit teaches and TESTIFIES of the TRUTH that is IN
If the WORD
, then the Holy Spirit is not making "testimony"... for His TESTIMONY
is the WORD
As I see it, ...except by observing it with common sense, and moderation, there is no MISUSE of it...
That's a big exception.
That the WORD
speaks NOTHING of it... it is an Unscriptural exception which is not expounded upon one way or the other. Concerning behaviors or indulgences that are not identified in the WORD
, we must as disciples... exercise moderation (Paul noted to take a little
wine for thy stomachs sake, CHRIST
turned the water into wine, marijuana is not mentioned, etc.)
JESUS threw over the tables in the temple... would THAT be part of the "embodiement"? If so, how?
Passion for what is right. It depends on how one is led by the Spirit.
In this case "what is RIGHT" is left to a matter of opinion, Seth... For the WORD
does not set guidelines concerning this subject.
One is only LED by the Spirit, in relation to that which is WRITTEN. If nothing is WRITTEN, then the SPIRIT has (by the Father been provided) NO TESTIMONY to lead one TO "what is RIGHT", concerning a given thing. Therefore, as Scripture notes OVER INDULGENCE is NOT acceptable in the sight of God concerning things that ARE addressed in it, we can thereby deduce this principle as applicable to other things which ARE NOT addressed in it -- i.e. -- moderation.
God created SEX... and the proper USE of it is NOT SINFUL, however the IMPROPER use of it, IS SIN...
God created ALCOHOL... and the proper USE of it is NOT SINFUL, however the IMPROPER use of it IS SIN... see what I mean?
Bingo, that was my whole point.
Improper use. And how do we determine what is improper? It's up the individual to examine himself with the guidance of the Spirit to know that.
Sorry to (slightly) disagree brother S, ...but I do not believe "the SPIRIT" is "guiding" in this instance... God gave us the ability to REASON. This ability is employed concerning that which is profittable, and that which is unprofittable in areas EXTERNAL of the teachings of HIS WORD
is also SILENT concerning the use of SUGAR, ...Sugar causes tooth decay... does one abstain from its use because one is guided by the SPIRIT? Or is common sense employed by the user, as to how (and how much) SUGAR is used?
Anything that is within our ability to choose personal involvement, CAN be SINFUL... but the SILENCE of Scripture concerning use of marijuana, or even Alcohol as "SIN"... is proof enough that it is NOT...
So when you ask, "is marijuana use sinful" I say "It can be." However, silence of scripture concerning the use of pot or alcohol is not proof enough for me it is not. That would be an argument from silence. I would say the improper use of anything, including pot would be sinful even though the written word does not mention pot specifically.
I have already agreed that if one is convicted of SIN on something UNMENTIONED in Scripture, that it is SIN to that one... However, that is NOT a measure which can be legally, and Scripturally IMPOSED upon others...
(i.e -- "misuse")
And because of the SILENCE or lack of DIRECTIVE concerning this subject in the WORD
, upon WHAT do you rest, and upon WHAT do you note is "MISUSE", Seth?
I'd like to know so I can be sure to understand what YOU BELIEVE to be MISUSE. And upon WHAT you base this measure and belief.
Because some "intellectual" (@Wikipedia) has given an opinion, you use IT as a measure of what IS or IS NOT correct in arguement. That is your choice, however...
Can you be cited by the CITY, for SPEEDING where there are NO
speed limits set and posted, Seth? (aside from wet or icy conditions, and even then it is up the descretion of the driver as to what speed is SAFE and what is NOT)...
notes that where no LAW is, no "IMPUTATION" is either...
~~ Is it Seth? Have you smoked or eaten pot? If you have, then you will KNOW that it hardly affects the mind NEGATIVELY, nor CONTROLS the mind...
~~ If you have NOT, then you are basing your statement that notes pot as "powerful" as opposed to "mudane" upon hearsay.
Wow bro... There must be behaviors in the Bay area, that are not present in Los Angeles or Spokane! I smoked pot for 10 solid years in Los Angeles and Spokane --- and a good 15 years (of much lesser use) in Spokane, with countless people on countless occasions, and NEVER ONCE did I ever witness NEGATIVITY arising from anyone using it in proximity to me -- NEVER ONCE!
I sure have, and I have been all around CA.
Your experience certainly does NOT reflect my own which has spanned 64 years.
What do you mean by "less than sober" bro? "Sober" has quite a few applicable meanings...
In what way or ways did it "control" your mind?
I mean that I smoked it, and then I was stoned and my thoughts became far from God, and that is just me. It controlled my mind in that way to where I did not feel in control of my thoughts.
"Control" of ones thoughts is not to be of ourselves. We are to be given over in submission to CHRIST
, who therein "controls"...
I have had MANY a SPIRITUAL experience while using marijuana. (You refer to it as "stoned", I do not)... I can also testify of MANY revelations which have occured during use as well...
I see... This is understandable... but maybe marijuana was not the culprit. Don't mean to be sarcastic... but (unfortunately) I too, have had impure thoughts during my lifetime that had nothing to do with marijuana... They were moments that I will be happy to have stricken from the record, but when this occured during the use of marijuana, it was not the marijuana that "caused" the thoughts... nor imposed control of those thoughts... It was my mind that (in that moment) was not submitted to CHRIST, that "caused" those "impure" thoughts, not the marijuana.
Well for me, the pot was indeed the culprit.
Or so you presently think and believe... so it is good for you to abstain, and I commend you for it!
A couple of questions:(1)
Did you ever have an IMPURE thought PRIOR to using marijuana?(2)
Have you ever had an IMPURE thought AFTER abstaining from marijuana use? If you have, then the possibility remains that your deduction is mislaid.
So it won't embarrass you to answer, I have had IMPURE thoughts both before and after using marijuana in my life. (I have very rarely used it for the last 10 years)
"IMPURE thoughts" are propositions of the flesh, which PAUL noted as continuing in his LIFE experience -- Rom 7
-- whole chapter.
Again, what the individual personally esteems, is an individual concern. My question in this thread was more IN GENERAL... Such as, ...what the WORD might broadcast as a direction or teaching concerning it...
Now I know your question was more in general, but in fairness, you didn't specify. IMHO The Word will let people know individually whether it's fine or not.
I disagree. The WORD
about it, so the WORD
"let people know"... It is YOU, yourself, which has established for yourself
that marijuana is SINFUL, and THAT is what makes it SIN to you. As Paul noted in Rom 14:14
-- The WORD
did not instruct you, one way or the other.
As I said in my question above... If I use marijuana, and a wonderful and TRUTHFUL revelation comes forth from within me, ...is this WRONG in some way, because marijuana was a part of it?
I'm really not the judge of that in each individual case. God is your judge on matters like that, not me.
That still does not answer the question.
I did not ask you to make a "judgment", I asked you [paraphrase] "how can "marijuana" be part of something annointed"?
Agreed bro... but aside from that, marijuana and heroin are 2 completely different things -- in 2 completely different categories.
Heroin can KILL you if you overdose yourself.
Heroin is PHYSICALLY addictive after the first few uses.
Heroin does NOT come from the ground -- AS IS.
Heroin must be PROCESSED/manufactured in order to be used.
Marijuana cannot KILL you by overdose.
Marijuana is NOT PHYSICALLY addictive, even after hundreds of uses.
Marijuana COMES from the ground (and from GOD) -- AS IS
Marijuana needs NO PROCESSING to be used.
This is true, that heroin is different than pot. My point there was not to compare the two as similar or the same but to give and example of a gradation of things which can be more powerful than others in bringing someone to slavery. For me, food might be a bigger pull. For others pot might be that way.
You have curbed or controlled "FOOD", but STILL use it, right? Why can't this approach be applied, with marijuana?
In my many experiences with marijuana, IT did not lead me to try other substances... (in honesty I have tried other substances, though not many) my FLESH prompted me. It is MAN's opinion (in general), that using one substance "leads them" to another...
The FLESH desires to explore the WORLD, and in that exploration, are often found detrimental things.
Hey... I tried Beer... and also tried wine, then hard liquor. Even though I "tried" these, I do not use wine or hard liquor, but I do still have a beer...
Did beer lead me? NO way. Curiosity of other things in the World, "led me"...
I tried riding a tricycle as a kid, then went to bikes... but never got strung out on motorcycles... same-same if you ask me.
I meant by "SILENCE", that GOD chose not to mention Marijuana in the written WORD, neither did He note MISUSE of it, nor did He note any directive concerning it... i.e. --> "silence". If NOTHING is said... then NOTHING is said.
Yes I agree, in the written word it is silent. However, the living Word is given for guidance in our daily lives, who is not silent. That was my point.
The "Living WORD
"? Is not the WORD
, the "LIVING WORD
You are welcome to your observations, and I condemn you not for them... however...
If what IS WRITTEN is embellished
by ones "feelings of being led" into areas or subject matter, ...where the WRITTEN WORD
is silent, ...well, SORRY ...but I see such as ADDITION to it.