Author Topic: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?"  (Read 2678 times)

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Offline jabcat

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"Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?"
« on: June 09, 2012, 12:03:06 AM »
Gary received this, and will direct the author to this thread.  Please share with true grace and love.


"Hello, I read your website and have some comments.


 If you claim there is no Eternal hellfire, then The Lord Jesus Christ died in vain. He died for no reason if you are right. If everyone gets to Heaven and noone burns in Hell forever, then He did not have to come to Earth and be beaten and tortured and murdered for human sin. You make Him to be a liar, which He is not. YOU are the liars.


Second, your "attempted exegesis" of the Bible verses are like that of new agers and other lost infidels headed for the Lake of Fire, which you are headed to unless you REPENT and BELIEVE in the LORD JESUS CHRIST. Your treatment of Luke 16 is disgusting and nonsensical. The rich man is still burning in Hellfire this moment. You pick and choose verses and distort them out of context. What foolishness.


Here is an example of your foolishness:

) 1Tim 2:4 God will have all to be saved. (KJV) Can His will be thwarted?

2) 1Tim 2:4 God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth Will His desire come to pass?

3) 1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time Are we judging God before due time?

4) Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all Will He succeed?

 

Answer: Jesus is God and God desires that everyone would have FAITH in HIM. Faith ALONE in Jesus ALONE is the condition for someone to be saved from Hell. ONCE we are saved by believing alone in Jesus alone then and ONLY then are we eternally secure. We cannot lose salvation once we have it but until you have it youre lost.

 

[We can] choose or reject Jesus Christ. MOST of humanity rejects Him and ends up burning forever in Hellfire.

 

Jesus succeeded even if not one person accepted Him and if ALL went to Hell.

Ofcourse, many have believed and been saved, praise God.

 

Also, it is IMPOSSIBLE for persons to believe in Jesus and be saved after physical death. Hebrews 9:7 states it is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgement. The rich man in Hell expressed no desire for himself to be saved because he knew it was impossible.


Read Revelation. When it speaks of the unsaved people who took the Mark of the Beast and are his followers, it says that God sends plagues down onto them, and they do not deny God exists. It says they refuse to repent of their evil and their unbelief, and, they CURSE GOD. Ultimately it comes down to this: Either a person is a child of God through Jesus or a child of Satan. Most of the world are children of Satan and Satan's children who die lost burn in Hell with Satan forever.

 

All humans are born from Adam with the spiritual disease of sin. The venom of sin is inside them. For the Christian, when we become born again by faith alone in Jesus alone, our souls are cleansed of sin. This does not mean we do not sin. Our bodies still contain sin but we can fight against it as Paul shows in Romans 7 and elsewhere. But our regenerated spirits inside our cleansed souls are free from all sin. When God looks at us, He sees the blood of Jesus.  Can a Born Again sin? Yes, but we are going against our new nature.

When a lost person sins they are following their spiritually dead lost depraved condition. When they do good they are going against their lost condition but it does them no good ultimately if they reject the Lord Jesus.

The Bible teaches distinctions. The unsaved world hates such distinctions. You need to accept and proclaim these beautiful distinctions between us saved people and them lost people.

You need to face the Biblical and logical fact that once someone dies without Jesus Christ as their only eternal Savior, they become a hardened demonic hater of God. The people in Hell, if they had access to you and me, would attack us, as bad as any devil. The rich man in Hell did cry out for his brothers to be warned, yes. Our job is to warn people. If you don't want people going to Hell, tell them the Gospel. Don't tell them everyone gets to Heaven. That is false.


So, do you accept the Bible and give up universalism or remain heretical?

With love and grace

Scalar"
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 12:09:03 AM by jabcat »

Offline lomarah

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2012, 12:17:54 AM »
I don't have time to write a good thought out post right now (I'll leave that to WW) but I just have to say that the more I actually obey the voice of the Lord, the more of a heretic I become. And like I was just saying the other day to Card, I don't mind being stoned as long as I know I'm doing His will. Frankly, if we're following His voice it's bound to happen in one way or another.

If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him.  :HeartThrob:
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2012, 12:35:37 AM »
Gary received this, and will direct the author to this thread.  Please share with true grace and love.
A good start would be if he actually tried to support his view.

Quote
If you claim there is no Eternal hellfire, then The Lord Jesus Christ died in vain
On the cross He said "Paid in full". Without that payment all your prayers and repenting would be futile. His blood washes away all sin. If He wouldn't have died on the cross there wouldn't have been blood.
http://bible.cc/hebrews/9-22.htm And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission
Jesus was the last and ultimate sacrifice. And you say it was useless?


Quote
Second, your "attempted exegesis" of the Bible verses
Show us your exegesis. Would be fun.


Quote
Jesus succeeded even if not one person accepted Him and if ALL went to Hell.
Exactly that's what the parable of the lost sheep is about. The shepherd just pretends he wants to save all sheep. In reality he doesn't care a bit. So even if the shepherd can't  find that sheep he's successful. Even more if all 100 sheep are eaten by wolves the shepherd would be considered a very skilled shepherd.

Quote
Also, it is IMPOSSIBLE for persons to believe in Jesus and be saved after physical death. Hebrews 9:7 states it is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgment.
And? Where does it say there is no way to repent at that point? What about every knee that bows? What about the three harvests?


Quote
Read Revelation. When it speaks of the unsaved people who took the Mark of the Beast and are his followers, it says that God sends plagues down onto them, and they do not deny God exists.
God shall not be mocked. But where exactly does it state those plagues go on for ever?


Quote
All humans are born from Adam with the spiritual disease of sin
And some like you show all the signs of that sin by slandering God.

Quote
The Bible teaches distinctions. The unsaved world hates such distinctions. You need to accept and proclaim these beautiful distinctions between us saved people and them lost people.
What are those beautiful distinctions? Some enter heaven but most are cast into a pagan torture pit?


Quote
So, do you accept the Bible and give up universalism or remain heretical?
I have a counter question for you: Would you accept the Bible or remain a satanist?

Quote
With love and grace
You don't have the slightest clue what those words mean. Get a grip man. Your heart is so dark it scares satan.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 09:45:38 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2012, 12:45:48 AM »
Hebrews 9: 27 And inasmuch as it is reserved to men once to die, and after this, judgment,
---> The classic verse to prove there is no chance for salvation after death.

Romans 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
---> Maybe they make fake confessions to escape hell?
---> That can only be true if the Holy Spirit inspires lies and fake confessions....
 
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I make known to you, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed, and no man can say, Jesus is Lord, except by Holy Spirit.
---> That's very clear; all who kneel do so because the Holy Spirit dwells within them. So the kneeling is a genuine confession...
---> Note that this is also the case before death.
---> But maybe it's to late anyway?
 
Romans 10:9 that if thou will confess with thy mouth, Lord Jesus, and will believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou will be saved.
---> Short recap: Everyone will make a true confession and at that point they will be saved. Obviously mrs muslim and mr. satanist never confesed in this life. Yet they are part of "everyone".
---> Ergo there is a chance after death. Ergo salvation after death is a Holy Spirit enforced fact for those groups.

---> Finally all the above are unconditional statements. But if there is still doubt....
Isaiah 45: 23 By myself I have sworn, the word has gone forth from my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue will confess to God
 
Summary:

Every person that has ever lived will make a confession. (Romans 14:11)
That confession isn't optional. It's declared as an fact. (Isaiah 45:23)
It will be a genuine confession. (1 Corinthians 12:3)
At that point they will be saved. (Romans 10:9)
Confession=saved. No other requirements of any sort are mentioned or implied. (Romans 10:9)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2012, 12:56:01 AM »
Quote
If you claim there is no Eternal hellfire, then The Lord Jesus Christ died in vain
Quote
Jesus succeeded even if not one person accepted Him and if ALL went to Hell.
He died for a certain reason don't you think? If not even one person would be saved by His teachings and death in what way would He have succeeded?


So:
- Jesus saves 0% => Jesus' death had great purpose. He simply succeeded. I wonder in what...but He truly succeeded.
- Jesus saves 10% => That's even better.
- Jesus saves 99% => Jesus did a great job! We wouldn't expect anything less from such a perfect Teacher.
- Jesus saves 100% => His life, ministry and suffering were useless acts. Not even worth the paper the Bible is written on.

 :LH:
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 11:11:01 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2012, 06:31:38 AM »
I also wonder why the "if there is no hell Jesus mission was useless" argument is only used against UR.
What about Calvinism?
They believe people are saved even before birth. The death of Jesus changed nothing about that fact.

UR is a combination of Calvinism and Arminianism. God predestined all to be saved.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 09:33:11 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2012, 06:56:28 AM »
Quote
Here is an example of your foolishness:

) 1Tim 2:4 God will have all to be saved. (KJV) Can His will be thwarted?
2) 1Tim 2:4 God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth Will His desire come to pass?
3) 1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time Are we judging God before due time?
4) Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all Will He succeed?

Answer: Jesus is God and God desires that everyone would have FAITH in HIM.
That is not an answer. Sure it's all about faith. Nobody on this forum will disagree with you on that part. So now we agree on that point we can discuss the four verses you quoted.

Do you agree the verses clearly state God wants to save people?
I think you have to because the verses clearly show God wants/desires to save them.
Can man really oppose God's will? By that I mean really stop God from doing what He wants to do? I'm aware of the bogus free will argument. God has a free will too.
http://bible.cc/proverbs/16-9.htm  A man's heart devises his way: but the LORD directs his steps
Seems God is tweaking man's free will a bit...


http://bible.cc/isaiah/55-11.htm
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

In case you wonder what God pleases and vowed:
Colossians 1:19-20
King James Version (KJV)
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

What about that verse? Let me guess, all doesn't mean all in that verse.
1 Corinthians 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Did only some die in Adam?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 11:14:22 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2012, 06:59:17 AM »
Jabcat I think the timing of this thread is bad.....
With all the forum issues/bugs going on this thread (and other) may get lost. Usaved :-)


"They deleted my post because they couldn't refute me!"
I'm sure you get my point...
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2012, 07:54:33 AM »
Doing what I was asked by Mr. G, Wingster.  :)

I hear you though.  I've offered to Gary to copy and paste the responses and send to the author in an email in a few days.  Maybe I should start saving the responses now.  And I don't know that there is, but hopefully if there's a more recent version coming, we'll get a notice beforehand.  Anyway, good responses so far. 

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2012, 10:01:07 AM »
UR is a fact BECAUSE Jesus died.
UR isn't a fact regardles if Jesus died or not.



That basic OT teaching.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline lomarah

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2012, 10:19:12 AM »
Quote
If you claim there is no Eternal hellfire, then The Lord Jesus Christ died in vain
Quote
Jesus succeeded even if not one person accepted Him and if ALL went to Hell.
He died for a certain reason don't think? If not even one person would be saved by His teachings and death in what way would He have succeeded?


So:
- Jesus saves 0% => Jesus death had great purpose. He simply succeeded. I wonder in what...but He truly succeeded.
- Jesus saves 10% => That's even better.
- Jesus saves 99% => Jesus did a great job! We wouldn't expect anything less from such a perfect Teacher.
- Jesus saves 100% => His life, ministry and suffering were useless acts. Not even worth the paper the Bible is written on.

 :LH:



So true... it makes no sense to say that His death was in vain if He saved everyone... (this is an obvious state of the total blindness of the church system... it's really sad.)

The fact that he says we need to make the "beautiful distinctions" between the saved and "them unsaved" also makes me really sad. Look at the love our Lord had for "those unsaved" sinners. He had such great love for them. He healed them and cried over them -(Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you! HOW OFTEN WOULD I HAVE GATHERED YOUR CHILDREN TOGETHER AS A HEN GATHERS HER BROOD UNDER HER WINGS...)
And do not forget His cry from the cross - FATHER FORGIVE THEM!!!

I see no condemnation or distinction in His love. He is the Saviour of all people and is soon to become the Lord of all.
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2012, 12:43:06 PM »

Christian Double-Talk

 
What Traditional Christians Say... What They Really Mean...
Love never faileth! Love can't overcome human stubborness.
There's nothing you must do to be saved...... Here's what you must do to be saved:
You are absolutely, totally helpless to save yourself. You must make a wise decision in order to be saved.
God controls all things. God doesn't control man's free will.
We can't boast about going to heaven. If we go to hell, it's our own fault.
Men are in bondage to sin. Men are free to choose Christ.
Grace is unmerited favor... ... given only to those who merit it with faith and obedience.
GOD IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND (1 Tim. 4:10)...  ... except for about ninety percent of them.
GOD'S LOVE IN UNCONDITIONAL... ... as long as you meet certain conditions.
GOD'S WILL IS UNOPPOSABLE... ... except by the sinner.
Salvation is not a thing of chance. There is no second chance to be saved.
WE HAVE GOOD NEWS FOR YOU! Most of mankind will perish forever.
GOD LOVES YOU! ... as long as you love Him.
Christ died for all sin... ... except the sin of not believing that He died for all sin.
The Good Shepherd seeks the lost sheep until he finds it! The Good Shepherd seeks until it's too late.
God's justice was satisfied in the cross of Christ. God's justice demands eternal torment or annihilation.
1997 by Jeff Preddy.
May be copied for non-commercial purposes,
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Gary Amirault

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I got an email from scalar who wrote me this post and here it is. I'm hoping he will come here and post himself/herself. Here is the email reply:

Yes, I did. First of all, when I posted Hebrews 9:7 I meant 9:27 which states it is appointed unto man once to die and after this, the judgement. Regarding the responses on the forum:

I see Scripture taken out of context. For example, every knee will bow and every toungue will confess, yes. But that does not mean they will be saved. The Lord Jesus said many will say to Him "Lord, Lord" and yet are not saved. Confessing Christ in the context of eternal salvation is to confess Him as our only eternal Savior. These people trusted in their own works and as a result went to Hell. Notice He says "Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels." Hell was made for Satan and his demons to burn forever but if a human refuses to admit their need for salvation and refuses to trust in Him alone for eternal life, they burn forever.

Regarding your question about my denominational background: I look at it like this, in Heaven there are no denominations. We are all just one family in Christ Jesus through His blood. I am familiar with and I have attended evangelical and other churches galore, Calvinist, Arminian, Pentecostal, Charismatic, Baptist Independent, Southern Baptist, etc. I personally lean towards a Dispensational Independent Pre Millenial Pre Tribulation Rapture Baptist view, which I believe is the closest to Biblical understanding. I hold that the Authorized Version 1611 King James Bible is the preserved words of God, and that while people can be saved by reading other versions, the other versions have alot of errors and omissions and such.

What is it that got you to hold to this universalistic view? Is it that you just cannot emotionally bear and accept people burning in Hell forever and you hide behind Scripture, or, is it because you are sincerely convinced that this is the case from the Bible? Remember, don't rely on the "Original Greek" because there is no "original Greek" and we have no "originals", we have copies of the copies. That being said, even those who hold to the original Greek theory have shown that the same Greek words used for the eternality of God and everlasting life of the saved is used for the eternal everlasting punishment of the lost. Paul said in 2 Thessalonians that God will take vengeance on those who refuse the Lord Jesus and this is everlasting.

Scalar

Offline lomarah

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2012, 05:06:55 PM »
Hi Scalar! Hope you'll join up and have some good chats with us. :)

Just a couple of things I will touch on regarding your reply to Gary.

Quote
I see Scripture taken out of context. For example, every knee will bow and every toungue will confess, yes. But that does not mean they will be saved. The Lord Jesus said many will say to Him "Lord, Lord" and yet are not saved. Confessing Christ in the context of eternal salvation is to confess Him as our only eternal Savior. These people trusted in their own works and as a result went to Hell.

Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the GLORY of God the Father. No one can confess Jesus as Lord apart from the Holy Spirit. Confessing Jesus as Lord means actually having Him as your RULING LORD, He is RULING YOUR LIFE, RIGHT NOW. (My sheep HEAR MY VOICE and they FOLLOW ME... He leads us and we follow and obey.) Thus, when He says many will say to me in that day 'Lord, Lord did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? who do you think He is speaking of here? It is obviously NOT unbelieving "sinners"!! IT IS THE MODERN DAY CHURCH!!! They confess Him with their mouths (Lord, Lord), they (sometimes) prophesy and drive out demons and perform miracles, but listen to  what He says next - "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." They are still working iniquity and He does not "know" them. Thus even though they professed to know Him, they still work iniquity and He does not join Himself to an unclean bride. This is the problem with the church system of today - it tells us that we cannot be made clean this side of heaven. That's a lie. We are called to be sanctified and made holy and Christ is VERY CAPABLE OF DOING SO FOR US!!! All we have to do is to press in and learn from HIM rather than taking in all the lies of christendom and sitting around singing hymns in our pews with our holier than thou attitude, judging others and being judged. Come out of her my people so you will not partake of her plagues!!!

Quote
What is it that got you to hold to this universalistic view? Is it that you just cannot emotionally bear and accept people burning in Hell forever and you hide behind Scripture, or, is it because you are sincerely convinced that this is the case from the Bible?

Scalar, this is the sad part about the church system... can YOU honestly say you can emotionally bear and accept people burning in hell forever? What if it was you? Your child? Any person for that matter? Scalar, this kind of attitude is the exact OPPOSITE from that of the tender heart of Father God. HE is a consuming fire who NEVER afflicts from the heart, but ALWAYS does it FOR OUR GOOD, THAT WE MAY SHARE IN HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS!!! Do you see that? He really is good Scalar! Be set free.  :cloud9:
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2012, 05:35:45 PM »
Quote
Remember, don't rely on the "Original Greek" because there is no "original Greek" and we have no "originals", we have copies of the copies.
But a translation (KJV) of those copies of copies is fine? Likely the answer is yes because without corrupt translations your doctrine can't survive.
Quote
I see Scripture taken out of context. For example, every knee will bow and every toungue will confess, yes. But that does not mean they will be saved. The Lord Jesus said many will say to Him "Lord, Lord" and yet are not saved.
There is a difference between confessing and saying "Lord, Lord". It's about the honesty of that confession. Lots of tv evangelists shout Lord Lord all the time...to line their pockets.
I think confession in the Bible is about true/honest confession. No fake confessions.. I think reply #3 shows that.
Quote
These people trusted in their own works and as a result went to Hell.
Sure not everybody is part of the first Overcomers/first fruit harvest. Not everybody rules with Jesus in His millenium Kingdom. After the 1000 years there is a second resurrection. The sheep and goats. The sheep go to heaven. The overcomers from the first resurrection obviously go to heaven also.
So we already have 2 classes of people that go to heaven. The very good overcomers and the not so good sheep. So those two groups are saved "each in their own order".
So what about the goats? End of line for them?

Revelation 22:14-15  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
When New Jerusalem is on earth the saints are inside the city.
The dogs, liars, thiefs, murderers, etc are outside the city.
But the gates are always open.
A tree with healing leaves of the nations grows inside the city. People are invited to drink from the fountain of life. Imo that fountain represents the teaching of Jesus.
But why are we told that? All the people inside are pure believers. They aren't sick (sinners). Neither do they need healing because they now have perfect bodies.
Could the fountain and the tree be for the sinners outside the gates of New Jerusalem?
Please read Isa 60. Especially verse 11. (especially doesn't mean only... :winkgrin:)
The gates are open so the nations and their kings can enter. The dogs outside the gates. Also note nations with their kings enter. Which means the plan of God has not yet ended.  1 Corinthians 15:20-28 shows for example Jesus rules until there are no more other kings.

Quote
Notice He says "Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels." Hell was made for Satan and his demons to burn forever but if a human refuses to admit their need for salvation and refuses to trust in Him alone for eternal life, they burn forever.
You mean God changed His mind?

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no ficklenss, neither shadow of turning.


Scalar a question for you. It's extremely clear you disagree on many points with Gary. Do you agree Gary truely believes in Jesus? If so, is that enough or does he also have to believe certain other things?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2012, 04:47:01 AM »
Gary believes scalar may be viewing the thread, and this is a new email from scalar Gary received;


"Feel free, Gary, to post my email statement on the board. But please do it in full and don't add to or take away from it. Put it there and let people read the truth, that Jesus Christ is God and He loves all mankind and died for all mankind but those who refuse His free pardon will face His fair trial at the Great White Throne Judgement and will be sentenced to hellfire forever. "Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels." The WORDS OF JESUS HIMSELF!

Regarding the young man who was all in tears over Hell and now came to Jesus as he claims because of the lie of universalism: The BIBLE warns of ANOTHER JESUS. ANOTHER CHRIST. Another gospel, all false ones. Jesus Himself and His apostle Paul warned of this. The New Agers, Mormons, Watchtower, Witches, Catholics, and all the other lost cultists have a Jesus who is a fake Jesus. ONLY Jesus of the BIBLE: GOD the Eternal Son in the flesh who saves us by faith alone in Him alone by His blood and His finished sacrifice on the Cross, is the true Jesus Christ the LORD.

Regarding lost mankind: God loves them more than you and I do, and God has ways to reach people, even using visions at times, but the main way is to get the Gospel preached. Romans 10:9-13 shows this. There are testimonies of God in the universe, like the sun is a type of Jesus and God Trinity: One God, Three Persons. One Sun, Three Rays: Chemical, Heat, and Light. The sun turns red as it "sets" showing Jesus died on the Cross and was killed/blooded for our salvation. The sun 'rises' every morning, the Son Jesus rose from the dead. Pagan sun worship is a distortion of this.

God is balanced. God IS love but He is also HOLY and RIGHTEOUS. There is NO love without holy judgement and justice. You are trying to rip God apart from His justice. God also respects and loves man enough to give us free choice.

The Apocrypha is antichrist. The issue of why it was in the old KJV was answered. Your hate of Brother Jack Chick is tragic. God has used him and a man named Peter Ruckman greatly in these 20th and 21st centuries. Are you sure you are really saved, Gary?


Regarding the abortion issue, abortion is baby murder. It is evil and wrong. ONLY God has the right and the authority to call people to Himself. Any human who does it is guilty of murder. The fact that all children and severely developmentally disabled people are covered and under the age of accountibility is beside the point.

If someone is offended by the truth of eternal concious torment in fiery Hell then they are enemies of the Gospel.
Atheists and others hate Jesus Christ and are spiritually dead and in sin until or unless they repent and believe in Him.

There are no "Original Greek manuscripts". There are no "Original Autographs". They are disintegrated. We only have copies of copies of copies that God Himself preserved. Anyone who tries to use the Original Greek as his argument base has no argument."
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 05:01:39 AM by jabcat »

Offline jabcat

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2012, 04:57:08 AM »
scalar;

Does the Bible say believe in Eternal Conscious Torment (the mistranslated "hell") and you will be saved (and if you don't, you're lost and going to hell?)  Or does it say "believe in Jesus and confess Him as Lord and you will be saved"?

Of course one is only saved by the blood of Jesus that He shed on the cross for us.  And one must be given the faith to believe and trust in that finished work.  True Christian Ultimate Reconciliation or The Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ DOES NOT say everyone's already saved, or that being given the faith to believe isn't necessary, etc.   But I believe you're missing the work of the ages..after this age, God isn't done yet.  Read I Corinthians 15 and ask God to show you what He'd have you see.  Not what you already think you see, but ask Him to shake up anything that's not of Him, and only leave His truth in you.  Before arguing against the all-encompassing power of the cross, ask Him to show you what "Jesus, Savior of the world" (I John 4:42) truly means.

Blessings...

"and if it be of God, ye are not able to overthrow it, lest perhaps also ye be found fighting against God.'  Acts 5:39
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 05:10:13 AM by jabcat »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2012, 08:57:05 AM »
This is becoming a useless discussion. Scalar tactically avoids questions and answers questions that Gary asked in private. Kinda hard to discusss that way.

"Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels." The WORDS OF JESUS HIMSELF!
Nope. The words of KJV

Quote
The BIBLE warns of ANOTHER JESUS. ANOTHER CHRIST. Another gospel, all false ones. Jesus Himself and His apostle Paul warned of this. The New Agers, Mormons, Watchtower, Witches, Catholics, and all the other lost cultists have a Jesus who is a fake Jesus.
You forgot to mention yourself. Nobody is disagreeing there were, are and will be anti-Christs. But just quoting that verse doesn't prove you are right or wrong. It's nothing but empty rethoric.


Quote
Regarding lost mankind: God loves them more than you and I do, and God has ways to reach people, even using visions at times, but the main way is to get the Gospel preached. Romans 10:9-13 shows this. There are testimonies of God in the universe, like the sun is a type of Jesus and God Trinity: One God, Three Persons. One Sun, Three Rays: Chemical, Heat, and Light.
So cultures we never saw the Bible still have  chance? That's a good thing! Let's hope they know about the fusio process in the sun. Otherwise they are lost anyway.

Quote
God is balanced. God IS love but He is also HOLY and RIGHTEOUS. There is NO love without holy judgement and justice.
True. Adolph Hitler was also a balanced person. He loved Eva Braun.

Quote
You are trying to rip God apart from His justice.
You are trying to determine which 'attribute' of God will prevail. God IS love and greatly values justice.
That very different from: God IS justice and greatly values love.

Quote
God also respects and loves man enough to give us free choice.
You tactically avoided the verse I quoted. You also seem to avoid lots of history of the Jews. The Jews kept falling into sin. Yes, by their limited free will. God was patient and gave them time to repent. God gave them free will to ignore His laws regarding Sabbath years. God was patient for a long time until He put the Jews into exile so the land could rest. At that very point the free will of the Jews met its limits. God applied His justice/law. When that time was up He set them free and a loving relation ship starts again

Quote
The Apocrypha is antichrist. The issue of why it was in the old KJV was answered.
That's what I meant at the start of my message. I haven't seen that answer.

Quote
Your hate of Brother Jack Chick is tragic. God has used him and a man named Peter Ruckman greatly in these 20th and 21st centuries. Are you sure you are really saved, Gary?
Liking Chick cartoons is one of the things we should do to recieve the free gift of life?

Quote
Regarding the abortion issue, abortion is baby murder.
Yeah, it's a very sad thing. Even more sad if you consider the fact those unborn babies go straight to hell because they never kneeling before Jesus!

Quote
There are no "Original Greek manuscripts". There are no "Original Autographs". They are disintegrated. We only have copies of copies of copies that God Himself preserved. Anyone who tries to use the Original Greek as his argument base has no argument."
Then you have no argument either. KJV is based on copies of copies. Why would that result in a better translation.
Quote
We only have copies of copies of copies that God Himself preserved.
In that case we have original Greek. Or do you think God did a lousy job preserving those copies?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2012, 09:16:47 AM »
scalar;

Does the Bible say believe in Eternal Conscious Torment (the mistranslated "hell") and you will be saved (and if you don't, you're lost and going to hell?)  Or does it say "believe in Jesus and confess Him as Lord and you will be saved"?

Of course one is only saved by the blood of Jesus that He shed on the cross for us.  And one must be given the faith to believe and trust in that finished work.  True Christian Ultimate Reconciliation or The Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ DOES NOT say everyone's already saved, or that being given the faith to believe isn't necessary, etc.   But I believe you're missing the work of the ages..after this age, God isn't done yet.  Read I Corinthians 15 and ask God to show you what He'd have you see.  Not what you already think you see, but ask Him to shake up anything that's not of Him, and only leave His truth in you.  Before arguing against the all-encompassing power of the cross, ask Him to show you what "Jesus, Savior of the world" (I John 4:42) truly means.

Blessings...

"and if it be of God, ye are not able to overthrow it, lest perhaps also ye be found fighting against God.'  Acts 5:39
Scalar is locked into standard rethoric. Unable or willing to study the Bible. Real study requires some guts. If someone starts a study when setting lots of parametes like: only KJV is right, free will, hell is a fact, no chances after death, it's not possible Jesus saves all, etc no study is possible. Even if those parameters are 100% correct each and every study will be a waste of time. Studies are, at least for me, about widening your horizon, learning something extra and also learning previous assumptions are wrong or at least need a little adjustment. To many parameters kill any research.

a] Collect facts and then draw a conclusion based upon those facts.
b] I have a conclusion and I'll start collecting facts to support that conclusion.

Both are ways of studying. But imo a is teh only true one and b the most used one.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

wasco55

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2012, 08:20:10 AM »
I am not going to make any comment on the details in this opening post.
I just want to share with you an article I wroth some days ago 

They are making a mockery of my God

Most Christians are making a mockery of my God.  What they are saying, without knowing it, is that the almighty God, the creator of heaven and earth, is about to run out of time, and he is in great distress, about to pull his hear out.
Why?
Because according to traditional theology, Jesus is coming back very, very soon. And God is about to realize that the battle is lost. After 2000 years his church has not managed to win more than, let's say 4-5% of the people He created in His own image.
In the beginning God had a plan, and a dream; 1Tim 2:3-4: For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

But unfortunately, the Devil also had a plan and a dream. And right now he is in a clear possession to win the whole thing. We are closing in to the end of the game, and very soon it's "game over" both for God and his chosen few.

I love soccer, and I love watching my team playing. But imagine how I would feel if 10 minutes before the game was over, the score was 96 to 4 in favor of our opponents. If that would happen, I know there would be a riot among the supports. We would demand a new couth and a new administration of our team.

Sorry to say, but that's how the great majority of believers sees our God, and the current state of his team, the church. 
But if this is the image you have of your God, then maybe it time to start a riot, demanding a new God. Or to be more precise, demanding the REAL God taking over the team.

When I see and listen to some televangelists or some other preachers begging people to support their ministries, I feel ashamed.
What they are actually saying, is that God is in great lack of money, and he is completely unable to do anything himself in order to save lost souls from being eternally tormented in a burning hell.   
But Praise the Lord!  God has given a vision to this evangelist, showing them how they can help God saving the lost souls. The only thing they need is your money. And of course, if you don't support their vision, and their ministry, millions will have to spend eternity in a burning hell. And in the end the blood of the lost souls will be on your hands.
Oh yea I can feel it right now, the evangelist is saying. The Lord is telling me, there is a lady whom God has told to write us a check of 10.000 dollars, and there is another it's a businessman and God is touching your heat right now. And He is telling you to write us a check of 100.000 dollars.
Come on now; start sawing your seed of faith into our ministry.  Let's really help God getting out of this terrible mess He has put himself into.

I am so grateful to God, that he opened my eyes and showed me that He is not in distress, he has not put himself into a terrible mess, and he is not in lack of anything.
And - Praise the Lord He has a perfect plan and His Divine plan will not fail.

Does he "need" you and me to fulfill His mission?
No, he doesn't need anything or anyone.
But by his grace, we have been given the privilege of being partakers of his Divine purpose.





Offline jabcat

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2012, 09:15:09 AM »
wasco55, awesome.

 :happyclap:

Offline Ross

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2012, 09:19:36 AM »
Amen!!
1 Tim 4;1,2 " Howbeit the Spirit EXPRESSLY says-
 that in the latter seasons some will revolt from the faith,
giving heed to seducing spirits and to teachings of demons,
speaking fasehood in hypocrisy, cauterised of demons in their own conscience."
Fellow brother in Christ

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2012, 03:03:49 PM »
boom goes the dynamite.  well said waco

Offline jugghead

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2012, 04:45:34 PM »
This is my opinion on the subject: Even though I believe in UR, I am in the spirit of humbleness and will admit that I might be wrong, it is the spirit of pride that will not let a man admit he might be wrong and that is why the sin remains.
Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2012, 07:22:51 PM »
Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.


Because large parts of the NT are parables, many are missing the real meaning of the words.
The letter of the law kills. So does Sola Scriptura.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...