Discussions Relating to Universal Reconciliation > Judgement and Punishment

"Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?"

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jabcat:
Gary received this, and will direct the author to this thread.  Please share with true grace and love.


"Hello, I read your website and have some comments.


 If you claim there is no Eternal hellfire, then The Lord Jesus Christ died in vain. He died for no reason if you are right. If everyone gets to Heaven and noone burns in Hell forever, then He did not have to come to Earth and be beaten and tortured and murdered for human sin. You make Him to be a liar, which He is not. YOU are the liars.


Second, your "attempted exegesis" of the Bible verses are like that of new agers and other lost infidels headed for the Lake of Fire, which you are headed to unless you REPENT and BELIEVE in the LORD JESUS CHRIST. Your treatment of Luke 16 is disgusting and nonsensical. The rich man is still burning in Hellfire this moment. You pick and choose verses and distort them out of context. What foolishness.


Here is an example of your foolishness:

) 1Tim 2:4 God will have all to be saved. (KJV) Can His will be thwarted?

2) 1Tim 2:4 God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth Will His desire come to pass?

3) 1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time Are we judging God before due time?

4) Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all Will He succeed?

 

Answer: Jesus is God and God desires that everyone would have FAITH in HIM. Faith ALONE in Jesus ALONE is the condition for someone to be saved from Hell. ONCE we are saved by believing alone in Jesus alone then and ONLY then are we eternally secure. We cannot lose salvation once we have it but until you have it youre lost.

 

[We can] choose or reject Jesus Christ. MOST of humanity rejects Him and ends up burning forever in Hellfire.

 

Jesus succeeded even if not one person accepted Him and if ALL went to Hell.

Ofcourse, many have believed and been saved, praise God.

 

Also, it is IMPOSSIBLE for persons to believe in Jesus and be saved after physical death. Hebrews 9:7 states it is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgement. The rich man in Hell expressed no desire for himself to be saved because he knew it was impossible.


Read Revelation. When it speaks of the unsaved people who took the Mark of the Beast and are his followers, it says that God sends plagues down onto them, and they do not deny God exists. It says they refuse to repent of their evil and their unbelief, and, they CURSE GOD. Ultimately it comes down to this: Either a person is a child of God through Jesus or a child of Satan. Most of the world are children of Satan and Satan's children who die lost burn in Hell with Satan forever.

 

All humans are born from Adam with the spiritual disease of sin. The venom of sin is inside them. For the Christian, when we become born again by faith alone in Jesus alone, our souls are cleansed of sin. This does not mean we do not sin. Our bodies still contain sin but we can fight against it as Paul shows in Romans 7 and elsewhere. But our regenerated spirits inside our cleansed souls are free from all sin. When God looks at us, He sees the blood of Jesus.  Can a Born Again sin? Yes, but we are going against our new nature.

When a lost person sins they are following their spiritually dead lost depraved condition. When they do good they are going against their lost condition but it does them no good ultimately if they reject the Lord Jesus.

The Bible teaches distinctions. The unsaved world hates such distinctions. You need to accept and proclaim these beautiful distinctions between us saved people and them lost people.

You need to face the Biblical and logical fact that once someone dies without Jesus Christ as their only eternal Savior, they become a hardened demonic hater of God. The people in Hell, if they had access to you and me, would attack us, as bad as any devil. The rich man in Hell did cry out for his brothers to be warned, yes. Our job is to warn people. If you don't want people going to Hell, tell them the Gospel. Don't tell them everyone gets to Heaven. That is false.


So, do you accept the Bible and give up universalism or remain heretical?

With love and grace

Scalar"

lomarah:
I don't have time to write a good thought out post right now (I'll leave that to WW) but I just have to say that the more I actually obey the voice of the Lord, the more of a heretic I become. And like I was just saying the other day to Card, I don't mind being stoned as long as I know I'm doing His will. Frankly, if we're following His voice it's bound to happen in one way or another.

If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him.  :HeartThrob:

WhiteWings:

--- Quote from: jabcat on June 09, 2012, 12:03:06 AM ---Gary received this, and will direct the author to this thread.  Please share with true grace and love.
--- End quote ---
A good start would be if he actually tried to support his view.


--- Quote ---If you claim there is no Eternal hellfire, then The Lord Jesus Christ died in vain
--- End quote ---
On the cross He said "Paid in full". Without that payment all your prayers and repenting would be futile. His blood washes away all sin. If He wouldn't have died on the cross there wouldn't have been blood.
http://bible.cc/hebrews/9-22.htm And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission
Jesus was the last and ultimate sacrifice. And you say it was useless?



--- Quote ---Second, your "attempted exegesis" of the Bible verses
--- End quote ---
Show us your exegesis. Would be fun.



--- Quote ---Jesus succeeded even if not one person accepted Him and if ALL went to Hell.
--- End quote ---
Exactly that's what the parable of the lost sheep is about. The shepherd just pretends he wants to save all sheep. In reality he doesn't care a bit. So even if the shepherd can't  find that sheep he's successful. Even more if all 100 sheep are eaten by wolves the shepherd would be considered a very skilled shepherd.


--- Quote ---Also, it is IMPOSSIBLE for persons to believe in Jesus and be saved after physical death. Hebrews 9:7 states it is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgment.
--- End quote ---
And? Where does it say there is no way to repent at that point? What about every knee that bows? What about the three harvests?



--- Quote ---Read Revelation. When it speaks of the unsaved people who took the Mark of the Beast and are his followers, it says that God sends plagues down onto them, and they do not deny God exists.
--- End quote ---
God shall not be mocked. But where exactly does it state those plagues go on for ever?



--- Quote ---All humans are born from Adam with the spiritual disease of sin
--- End quote ---
And some like you show all the signs of that sin by slandering God.


--- Quote ---The Bible teaches distinctions. The unsaved world hates such distinctions. You need to accept and proclaim these beautiful distinctions between us saved people and them lost people.
--- End quote ---
What are those beautiful distinctions? Some enter heaven but most are cast into a pagan torture pit?



--- Quote ---So, do you accept the Bible and give up universalism or remain heretical?
--- End quote ---
I have a counter question for you: Would you accept the Bible or remain a satanist?


--- Quote ---With love and grace
--- End quote ---
You don't have the slightest clue what those words mean. Get a grip man. Your heart is so dark it scares satan.

WhiteWings:
Hebrews 9: 27 And inasmuch as it is reserved to men once to die, and after this, judgment,
---> The classic verse to prove there is no chance for salvation after death.

Romans 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
---> Maybe they make fake confessions to escape hell?
---> That can only be true if the Holy Spirit inspires lies and fake confessions....
 
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I make known to you, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed, and no man can say, Jesus is Lord, except by Holy Spirit.
---> That's very clear; all who kneel do so because the Holy Spirit dwells within them. So the kneeling is a genuine confession...
---> Note that this is also the case before death.
---> But maybe it's to late anyway?
 
Romans 10:9 that if thou will confess with thy mouth, Lord Jesus, and will believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou will be saved.
---> Short recap: Everyone will make a true confession and at that point they will be saved. Obviously mrs muslim and mr. satanist never confesed in this life. Yet they are part of "everyone".
---> Ergo there is a chance after death. Ergo salvation after death is a Holy Spirit enforced fact for those groups.

---> Finally all the above are unconditional statements. But if there is still doubt....
Isaiah 45: 23 By myself I have sworn, the word has gone forth from my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, that to me every knee shall bow, every tongue will confess to God
 
Summary:

Every person that has ever lived will make a confession. (Romans 14:11)
That confession isn't optional. It's declared as an fact. (Isaiah 45:23)
It will be a genuine confession. (1 Corinthians 12:3)
At that point they will be saved. (Romans 10:9)
Confession=saved. No other requirements of any sort are mentioned or implied. (Romans 10:9)

WhiteWings:

--- Quote --- If you claim there is no Eternal hellfire, then The Lord Jesus Christ died in vain
--- End quote ---

--- Quote ---Jesus succeeded even if not one person accepted Him and if ALL went to Hell.
--- End quote ---
He died for a certain reason don't you think? If not even one person would be saved by His teachings and death in what way would He have succeeded?


So:
- Jesus saves 0% => Jesus' death had great purpose. He simply succeeded. I wonder in what...but He truly succeeded.
- Jesus saves 10% => That's even better.
- Jesus saves 99% => Jesus did a great job! We wouldn't expect anything less from such a perfect Teacher.
- Jesus saves 100% => His life, ministry and suffering were useless acts. Not even worth the paper the Bible is written on.

 :LH:

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