Author Topic: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?"  (Read 2525 times)

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Offline dajomaco

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2012, 08:53:53 PM »
Scalar is God the God of the living or the God of the Dead?.
The good news is for the living those that draw breath today.
Jesus has made it possible for us to start our eternal live with God
today. Today is the day of our salvation.
 The good news is to be preached to the living.
It is while we are a live that the spirit gives live to our hearts.
It is while we are alive that we have communion with God.
Our hearts are made right and we learn to Love all that God loves.


Offline reFORMer

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2012, 08:35:20 AM »
In what (if anything) have your beliefs changed from your parents and/or the church you started in?  At the first, when I was born again at about 19 years old, I believed like my parents and the church I was raised in.  I came into God with whatever I already had.  I had never read the Bible, book by book as it has been given to us, for myself.  While my spirit was changed, my heart and mind was about the same.

It took about 40 years for my inward man to get power over sin.  My doctrinal understanding has changed bit by bit over the years too.  Some of it several times.  A couple days ago I mentioned to a Baptist Pastor I'd been born into an "Arminian" doctrinal environment.  After a revelation of the sovereignity of God I was a Calvinist for over a decade; but, now I didn't accept either view.  Well, since I'd already stepped in you know what by saying this, my mouth seemed bent on taking me spiraling down from there.  I guess I'd forgoten how spit-flyin', veins-poppin', and red-in-the-face Baptists can get when you show them where the Bible disagrees with what they believe! 

After about twenty-five years of following Jesus I encounted a simple rule:  "Make your statement of faith using the words that God chose to make His revelation known to man."  Actually, I had this rule in practice early on, but did not have it self-consciously formulated as a few specific words I could repeat to others.  Initially I had searched for a around a year for a statement in Scripture that the "rapture" was before "the seven year(s) great tribulation."  I thought I couldn't preached to others what I couldn't quote the Bible as saying.  I didn't see how I could believe it either.  Well, not only could I not find it in the Bible or other books on the topic, the people I asked got very angry with me, even physically assaulting me!  Eventually I realized, even with all the books some of them had written on the subject, they didn't have any verses or they'd have quoted them.  Instead, they resorted to "the arm of the flesh."  While that was the first thing I tried to prove from the Bible, it was a while before I encountered a statement by A. E. Knoch that became a rule I could quote to others.  "Make your statement of faith using the words that God chose to make His revelation known to man."  In other word, the Bible either directly says it or you are not obliged to believe it.

Can you look at the things you wrote and see how many only refer to the Bible by name but make no direct quotes saying what you are saying?  Number them and go at it.  See how many direct quotes saying the same thing you can find.  Do you have a concordance, like maybe Strong's Exhaustive Concordance ?  Maybe you use something online like www.blueletterbible.org ?  Only aboout 3 1/2 per cent of people who say they are born again Christians and attend some kind of Christian gathering regularly have ever read the Bible through even once.  Most do not know how to use a concordance to verify what the Bible does or does not say.  Many are defeated by the sin of laziness and are unwilling to resist and overcome it to use the Bible for themselves.  Whether you don't know how or are just lazy, if you can't prove whether something is in the Bible or not, then you aren't going by the authority of God's word but are only following hearsay.  Though many only repeat what they've heard they seem unable to realize it.  Their minds are bound in ignorance.  They persist in claiming they believe the Bible without ever proving what it says.

For now, for humility's sake, give up thinking that the more people think like yourself the more right they are.  Can't you see by what little experience of God you walk in that you've got a lot of developing to do before you enter into sinless immortality like Paul said was the one thing he was pressing foward to obtain?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 08:50:18 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2012, 03:18:38 PM »
In what (if anything) have your beliefs changed from your parents and/or the church you started in?  At the first, when I was born again at about 19 years old, I believed like my parents and the church I was raised in.  I came into God with whatever I already had.  I had never read the Bible, book by book as it has been given to us, for myself.  While my spirit was changed, my heart and mind was about the same.

It took about 40 years for my inward man to get power over sin.  My doctrinal understanding has changed bit by bit over the years too.  Some of it several times.  A couple days ago I mentioned to a Baptist Pastor I'd been born into an "Arminian" doctrinal environment.  After a revelation of the sovereignity of God I was a Calvinist for over a decade; but, now I didn't accept either view.  Well, since I'd already stepped in you know what by saying this, my mouth seemed bent on taking me spiraling down from there.  I guess I'd forgoten how spit-flyin', veins-poppin', and red-in-the-face Baptists can get when you show them where the Bible disagrees with what they believe! 

After about twenty-five years of following Jesus I encounted a simple rule:  "Make your statement of faith using the words that God chose to make His revelation known to man."  Actually, I had this rule in practice early on, but did not have it self-consciously formulated as a few specific words I could repeat to others.  Initially I had searched for a around a year for a statement in Scripture that the "rapture" was before "the seven year(s) great tribulation."  I thought I couldn't preached to others what I couldn't quote the Bible as saying.  I didn't see how I could believe it either.  Well, not only could I not find it in the Bible or other books on the topic, the people I asked got very angry with me, even physically assaulting me!  Eventually I realized, even with all the books some of them had written on the subject, they didn't have any verses or they'd have quoted them.  Instead, they resorted to "the arm of the flesh."  While that was the first thing I tried to prove from the Bible, it was a while before I encountered a statement by A. E. Knoch that became a rule I could quote to others.  "Make your statement of faith using the words that God chose to make His revelation known to man."  In other word, the Bible either directly says it or you are not obliged to believe it.

Can you look at the things you wrote and see how many only refer to the Bible by name but make no direct quotes saying what you are saying?  Number them and go at it.  See how many direct quotes saying the same thing you can find.  Do you have a concordance, like maybe Strong's Exhaustive Concordance ?  Maybe you use something online like www.blueletterbible.org ?  Only aboout 3 1/2 per cent of people who say they are born again Christians and attend some kind of Christian gathering regularly have ever read the Bible through even once.  Most do not know how to use a concordance to verify what the Bible does or does not say.  Many are defeated by the sin of laziness and are unwilling to resist and overcome it to use the Bible for themselves.  Whether you don't know how or are just lazy, if you can't prove whether something is in the Bible or not, then you aren't going by the authority of God's word but are only following hearsay.  Though many only repeat what they've heard they seem unable to realize it.  Their minds are bound in ignorance.  They persist in claiming they believe the Bible without ever proving what it says.

For now, for humility's sake, give up thinking that the more people think like yourself the more right they are.  Can't you see by what little experience of God you walk in that you've got a lot of developing to do before you enter into sinless immortality like Paul said was the one thing he was pressing foward to obtain?

the pre-trib rapture was the first for me to fall too.  the same thing happened to me, I wanted to read about it from the bible and not quotes, of quotes of men.  the next was the... oh never mind :)

Offline shawn

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Re: "Will you give up universalism or remain heretical?\
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2012, 08:35:47 PM »
I honestly find these debates unfruitful.  I have gone down this path before, and I know where it leads.  You have an angry Christian who threatens with hellfire.  He/she makes the same points we have all heard before, as if we have never seen these arguments.  We defend our views with our view points.  Nothing changes.  It's all ego, on both sides.  It doesn't support love, or unity of the body of Christ.

How about instead, we let our study and views stand on their own merit.  There is no need to defend them.  The truth defends itself.  And when a heart is ready to drop the doctrine of men, and embrace God's agape love for all of creation...they will do so.  If someone is truly hurting or seeking, then by all means we should take up arms to share.  But, to encourage debate with one more angry Christian is unfruitful and promotes discord.  My 2 cents.