Author Topic: When do we people go to the afterlife  (Read 10193 times)

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Offline CrossoverManiac

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When do we people go to the afterlife
« on: April 02, 2009, 10:45:38 PM »
I was reading some of the essays on this site and one of them stated that all is in Sheol and none have gone to Heaven (yet).  I'm not sure if they were talking about before the Resurrection or before the Second Coming.  But I have heard something similiar before.  That people are in 'soul sleep' and are still dead waiting to be resurrected (but then again, most of the people I've heard preach this has been annihilationists/believers in conditional immortality).  Is this a doctrine preached at tentmaker or not?

IceDash

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2009, 02:03:25 AM »
I don't belive in afterlife because it doesn't make sense and it doesn't match up in the bible but yet YET some people around the world seen their's mom and dad, or someone who died came back with alot love

hard to tell, just like around the world seen UFO



now, how come I did not seen this, and but I did saw a fast moving zip-zag UFO that came out of the water in the lake of chicago city, my friend seen it and about 54 witness, I bet some militry did.

Offline CrossoverManiac

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2009, 02:04:46 AM »
I take it you're an atheist.

Offline lookingup

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2009, 06:42:24 AM »
Howdy all,
Crossover, i don't believe we live on after we die, the scriptures in Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 make that pretty clear to me.i have read many an article during my last 4 or so years after learning about UR, for me this article kinda put the piece of the puzzle that made the picture clear enough for me to say, that when this life is over our only hope is in the ressurection promised by God and His Son. The only time immortality is mentioned in scriptures it refers to God being the only one who has immortality.
Here is that link if any would like to check it out:   http://www.british-israel.ca/immortalsoul.htm.         
                   It has a lot of good info in it. That being said i have found that i don't find all truths from one source, as i believe that we are given revelation  in Gods' time.

                   There's an article that comes from L. Ray Smith that i found to be somewhat comforting with the knowledge that God, in his infinite wisdom has a system to keep me until the ressurection, again if you would like here is the link to that article:
http://bible-truths.com/death.htm

                                   Henry


Offline Cardinal

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2009, 06:51:08 AM »
 :cloud9: Crossover, I don't know if there's any one "doctrine" preached on that here or not. There are many differing views held by all of us posters, as all are free to interject. You might check the main page. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2009, 06:52:22 AM »
Quote
but I did saw a fast moving zip-zag UFO that came out of the water in the lake of chicago city, my friend seen it and about 54 witness,

You saw a ufo coming out of a lake? :mshock:

What did it look like? You're not the first person I've heard describe something like that.

Oh.  I believe in immediate life after death, that is, we don't die, although some might be asleep.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 06:56:17 AM by Molly »

Offline Pierac

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2009, 07:07:35 AM »
I was reading some of the essays on this site and one of them stated that all is in Sheol and none have gone to Heaven (yet).  I'm not sure if they were talking about before the Resurrection or before the Second Coming.  But I have heard something similiar before.  That people are in 'soul sleep' and are still dead waiting to be resurrected (but then again, most of the people I've heard preach this has been annihilationists/believers in conditional immortality).  Is this a doctrine preached at tentmaker or not?

Who is in Heaven? (John 3:13) No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

What does Paul tell us?  2Ti 2:18  men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.

And Peter? 2Pe 3:3  Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4  and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."

These words were written decades after Jesus' death and resurrection.... So looks like we stay dead until the resurrection.    :2c: 

Paul



Offline CrossoverManiac

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2009, 07:12:31 AM »
But those verses, the way you're interpreting them, contradict the words of Jesus on the Cross to the thief that he would be with him in Paradise.  Jesus, in his ministries, said that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the God of the living and not the dead.  Please clarify your position further.

Offline Molly

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2009, 07:18:17 AM »
John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;



John 8:35
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.


Psa 23
6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Offline Molly

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2009, 07:26:14 AM »

John 14:2
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2009, 07:38:17 AM »
Paul seems to think we can go to Paradise in this body or that we can exist as a spirit apart from a body, "out of the body" and experience functions wrongly assumed to be limited to the body, like hearing or seeing.

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 (CLV) . . .
1 If boasting must be, though it is not expedient, indeed, yet I shall also be coming to apparitions (visions-KJV) and revelations of the Lord.
2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware -- God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven.
3 And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware -- God is aware)
4 that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak.

There's more Scripture for understanding it this way than there's time for here.  When Ecclesiates says, "The dead know nothing.  They go down in silence." it is enough to fulfill it by going up to a corpse in a casket and yelling at him, slapping him even and you'll find he doesn't know it and remains silent.  Yet the Word speaks of the spirit of man going up, whereas the spirit of a beast goes down.  (Please don't ask me to get references at this late moment.)

I don't have time to detail that doctrine here; but, I've also experienced various things that make it more according to how I understand Scripture than the so-called "soul sleep" doctrine.  This is not "The Immortality of the Soul" doctrine.  "The soul that sins it shall die" is the word of God.  However, I believe  it is possible the spirit may experience times of sleep when apart from the body that's dead.

1 Peter 3:17-22 (CLV) . . .
17 For it is better to be suffering for doing good, if the will of God may be willing, than for doing evil,
18 seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,
19 in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,
20 He heralds to those once stubborn
, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water,
21 the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 Who is at God's right hand, being gone into heaven, messengers and authorities and powers being subjected to Him.

1 Peter 4:5-6 (CLV) . . .
5 who shall be rendering an account to Him Who is holding Himself in readiness to judge the living and the dead.
6 For for this an evangel is brought to the dead also, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, yet should be living according to God, in spirit.

How could God judge the dead if they are not.  If you say he will raise them to judgment then they are alive and he wouldn't be judging the dead.  Jesus is Lord of the living and the dead according to Scripture.

What I think is an important point is that in order to believe in the salvation of all the only change a person needs to make, regardless of other possible variations in theology, is to understand that your destiny is not sealed by death.  God continues to work with the spirit.  How bad off would many who have followed Him in life if they were raised immortal in no better spiritual condition than what they were when they died?

Nevertheless, I don't care much if people who love God think differently on this, as many do.  What I agree with from their perspective is that if being a spirit apart from the body means we experience everything just as if we were alive then it would be very hard to provide a reason for the resurrection.  That is exactly what many have concluded.  When you die you are spirit immediately, which is the resurrection body.  That is getting too far from what I understand happened to Jesus and the expectation that He, "...will transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself." (Php 3:20, CLV)

I think it has to do with manifesting in the physical, psychical and spiritual dimensions.  We are our bodies and we are our spirits, both of which have substance.  It doesn't seem that the soul has substance, but it is in the mid heaven.  We exist in 3 dimensions, hence the mention of the 3rd heaven in 2 Cor 12.  I think it is the influence of Greek mysticism that caused the Institutional Church to take up the idea that we are spirits that have bodies, that the body isn't the real man.  Seeing ourselves as multi-dimensional wholes is more Biblical.

All of this could be elaborated upon in book length discussions.

Your friend, James Rohde

P.S.  Too many think they know what happens when we die based on nothing they've experienced, only what they heard others say.  I know for a fact that God will bring the seeking soul a lot more light than that.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 08:02:00 AM by reFORMer »
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Offline willieH

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2009, 07:41:54 AM »
willieH: Hi CM... :hithere:

I was reading some of the essays on this site and one of them stated that all is in Sheol and none have gone to Heaven (yet).  I'm not sure if they were talking about before the Resurrection or before the Second Coming.  But I have heard something similiar before.  That people are in 'soul sleep' and are still dead waiting to be resurrected (but then again, most of the people I've heard preach this has been annihilationists/believers in conditional immortality).  Is this a doctrine preached at tentmaker or not?

Before men enter TIME (prior to birth), they have nothing to do with it... and after men leave TIME (at death)... again, they have nothing to do with it...

Time is as meaningless to the most current man who has entered DEATH... as it is to ADAM...

In other words, ADAM has spent as much "TIME" ...waiting... for the resurrection, as has the last man who has just died... NONE!  :grin:

The "soul sleep" issue implies that men "spend time" in the state of DEATH in the Grave... because of the word "SLEEP"...  and because it is the experience of men IN TIME, that SLEEP is a duration of TIME...

The state of DEATH is a "sleep" that is not concerned with, or measured by, TIME...

...peace...  :cloud9:

...willieH  :icon_king:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2009, 07:50:02 AM »
But those verses, the way you're interpreting them, contradict the words of Jesus on the Cross to the thief that he would be with him in Paradise. 

It remains to be seen if their is a contradiction. The Greek source text has no interpuntion.
a] No interpunction like in the original Greek.
b] This states the thief will be in heaven today.
c] This should be read like: Right now I'm telling you, ......

a] And Jesus said unto him verily I say unto thee Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
b] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
c] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2009, 09:34:26 AM »
I take it you're an atheist.

i'll help out here...i know ID enough to know he's not an atheist, and I'm confident what he's saying is that he doesn't believe in conscious activity after death PRIOR to the resurrection...I'm pretty sure that's what he meant by 'afterlife'....
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2009, 09:40:54 AM »
But those verses, the way you're interpreting them, contradict the words of Jesus on the Cross to the thief that he would be with him in Paradise. 

It remains to be seen if their is a contradiction. The Greek source text has no interpuntion.
a] No interpunction like in the original Greek.
b] This states the thief will be in heaven today.
c] This should be read like: Right now I'm telling you, ......

a] And Jesus said unto him verily I say unto thee Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
b] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
c] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Hey WW...back to our The Christian Bible (1991)...one of the most literal to the early Greek manuscripts;

Then He said to him, "Amen [truly], I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise" [the new (third) earth of the Last Age (Rev. 21:1-22:2).
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

IceDash

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2009, 11:45:47 AM »
I take it you're an atheist.

i'll help out here...i know ID enough to know he's not an atheist, and I'm confident what he's saying is that he doesn't believe in conscious activity after death PRIOR to the resurrection...I'm pretty sure that's what he meant by 'afterlife'....

I was about to post but after reading this, thank for helping out when I am not around, I am a  believer and love God so much, but afterlife doesn't make sense to me because that defeat jesus's death on the cross purpose and for nothing.

martincisneros

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2009, 11:50:14 AM »
How would an afterlife defeat Jesus' purpose on the Cross?  Do you not believe 1John when it says in a couple of places that we have passed from death to life and that we have eonian life right now?

Offline sven

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2009, 02:50:48 PM »
I think the dead are literally dead until the ressurection, but I think the opinions might differ here on tentmaker. I wrote about this somewhere - but it's no topic I want to quarrel about here, for me it's quite obvious but I accept other opinions though I don't share them.

Except the story of the rich man (which is a parable in my view), there is not a single definite Bible verse that says anyone who died is alive in heaven/paradise yet (except Jesus of course; WhiteWings allready explained the verse with the thief on the cross). The Bible further denies the immortality of the soul, it does not only NOT teach it, but denies it.



« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 02:52:44 PM by sven »

Zeek

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2009, 02:59:24 PM »
I think it is interesting/awesom that those "who believe shall never die", and those "who love have passed from death to life";

why then would that life be shut off at the end of their physical life? 

Our spirit testifies with His Spirit that we are sons of God,

and the spirit returns to the Lord at death. 

Sounds to me like our spirit lives on. 

jmo

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1Jn 3:14  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.


Rom 8:16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2009, 04:02:36 PM »
I think the dead are literally dead until the ressurection, but I think the opinions might differ here on tentmaker. I wrote about this somewhere - but it's no topic I want to quarrel about here, for me it's quite obvious but I accept other opinions though I don't share them.

Except the story of the rich man (which is a parable in my view), there is not a single definite Bible verse that says anyone who died is alive in heaven/paradise yet (except Jesus of course; WhiteWings allready explained the verse with the thief on the cross). The Bible further denies the immortality of the soul, it does not only NOT teach it, but denies it.

For me personally it's clear. The dead are dead until resurrection. They are resurrected after the 1000 year reign (I hope I got that right)
I think all on TM agree on that point.
The different views on TM are that some think the 1000 year period is in the future.
Some believe it is, or can be right now. People turning to Christ die in their old life and are now resurrected (in Jesus)
I hope I summarized that correctly.

It's ok by me that people view the Rich man parable differently and read the cross verse as that thief being right now in heaven. BUT then they also need a good explanation on the then contradicting verse that noone but Jesus has acendent.
It wrong to rebuke a verse with another verse. If you/me can't align all relevant verse then either there is lack of understanding, translation error or God made some mistakes when inspiring the Bible. Somehow I think noone will opt the last option.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2009, 04:05:54 PM »
Hey WW...back to our The Christian Bible (1991)...one of the most literal to the early Greek manuscripts;
Rub the salt into the open wound.  :thumbdown:
Well salt is good  :thumbsup:

Just kidding buddy. :friendstu:
Got hold of  crate of golden Bibles?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2009, 05:48:16 PM »
How would an afterlife defeat Jesus' purpose on the Cross?  Do you not believe 1John when it says in a couple of places that we have passed from death to life and that we have eonian life right now?

Wasn't part of the purpose of the cross that the dead will be resurrected at some point in time?
That part would be defeated if billions of people before Jesus already are resurrected.
It would also make the resurrection of Jesus less special because He wasn't the first.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline reFORMer

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2009, 05:51:39 PM »
I think the dead are literally dead until the ressurection, but I think the opinions might differ here on tentmaker. I wrote about this somewhere - but it's no topic I want to quarrel about here, for me it's quite obvious but I accept other opinions though I don't share them.

Except the story of the rich man (which is a parable in my view), there is not a single definite Bible verse that says anyone who died is alive in heaven/paradise yet (except Jesus of course; WhiteWings allready explained the verse with the thief on the cross). The Bible further denies the immortality of the soul, it does not only NOT teach it, but denies it.
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (CLV) . . .
2 I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware -- God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven.
3 And I am acquainted with such a man (whether in a body or outside of the body I am not aware -- God is aware)
4 that he was snatched away into paradise and hears ineffable declarations, which it is not allowed a man to speak.


1 Peter 3:18-20 (CLV) . . .
18 ...being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,
19 in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,
20 He heralds to those once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah

1 Peter 4:6 (CLV) . . .
6 ...for this an evangel is brought to the dead also, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, yet should be living according to God, in spirit.

I quoted these verses more fully above.  I also said:  "Paul seems to think we can go to Paradise in this body or that we can exist as a spirit apart from a body, 'out of the body' and experience functions wrongly assumed to be limited to the body, like hearing or seeing."  Existing as a spirit apart from a body is not "immortality of the soul."  Jesus says that if you try to save your soul (thought, will and emotions) you will lose it; but, if you destroy your soul for the sake of Jesus and the gospel you will be obtaining your soul.

Jesus was not in a Paradisical "heaven" when in death he preached to the spirits of those from Noah's day because they were in "prison."

Also, as I said above, the idea our condition in death is the same as if we were alive would leave us with no reason for the resurrection.  While it may seem that way to us, though I don't fully know, the aim is to have expression in the realm of quickened, made alive, vivified spirit, in the dimension of the psyche or soul, and as a body in the physical dimension (and in Jesus even beyond).  This 3 dimensions is often overlooked. 

« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 06:48:47 PM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Cardinal

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2009, 06:00:04 PM »
 :cloud9: Well, I don't agree that we "sleep" until the resurrection, so I guess I differ from the "official" version. I know there is a purgatory type of existence wherein the soul is separated at death from the spirit of man. The Spirit returns to the One that sent it, but the soul stays trapped temporarily in whatever it did not overcome thru the Spirit of Christ while still in the body. This is why David said, "Thou wilt not suffer my SOUL to be in Sheol (separated from God/Spirit)."

The re-union of the soul and spirit IS the first resurrection, typified by the first set of curtains or veil the priest had to walk thru,. In the temple there was a river that ran underground (out of your belly shall flow rivers of living water) that the priests were to use to carry off the blood from sacrifices. The life is in the blood; this blood in us spiritually speaking, is our soul. This is why it says out of the HEART OF MAN cometh fornications, idolatries, ect. We're saved in order; spirit, SOUL and body. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: When do we people go to the afterlife
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2009, 11:17:06 PM »
Jesus, in his ministries, said that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the God of the living and not the dead.

I assume this is the verse you reffer to:
Mark 12:27   He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
A few verses earlier:
Mark 12:18   Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,

So Jesus is just saying there will be resurrection. But I see no mentioning of immediate resurrection.
Between those 2 verses there is an example of remarriage.
Mark 12:23  In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, ....
Mark 12:25  For when they shall rise from the dead....

To me the verses speak about ressurrection but not instantly. Stickly speaking resurrection can't even exist if you see death as steping through a door from this world to heaven. To resurrect someone he/she has to be dead.
Even Jesus was dead for a few days.

And:
Revelation 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Some stay dead, at least, 1000 years.
It's the first resurrection. Billions of people died since Adam. If they all are in heaven now it would not the 1st resurrection.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...