Author Topic: Unforgiveable Sin  (Read 31064 times)

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martincisneros

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2008, 04:30:13 AM »
here it is  KJV Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. 
 
ESV Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, "See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you."
 
 N LTJhn 5:14 But afterward Jesus found him in the Temple and told him, "Now you are well; so stop sinning, or something even worse may happen to you."
I don't think that Jesus was asking/demanding sinless perfection in his own strength, particularly having in the back of His Mind that the new birth was months away from being available as well as being filled with the Holy Spirit, being cleansed by the Blood and being able to participate in the Bread and Cup daily as well with all of the temporal and heavenly benefits of that, etc.  I have a strong feeling that particular details were left out of the account that aren't any of our business about a particular sin that was being dealt with, whether gluttony, masturbation, wearing his feelings on his sleeves and barking at the moon over every little self determined injustice from others, stealing, venting at a particularly beautiful loved one to him, perhaps neglecting to pray since the prophet Samuel indicating something sinful in setting aside prayer, mouthing off at God for his lot in life, some particular of the Mosaic law that we'd recognize these days as a hygiene issue, or neglecting a vow he'd made to God that if God ever healed him, then...., etc.  I believe that Jesus was putting His finger on something in particular in the guy's life and was telling him that he'd just gotten his healing, things are looking up for him, so don't screw this or that up with that temper or by getting tossed in jail for stealing, in some other way opening the door to the devil, or whatever.  Or perhaps it was a warning similar to God's warning to Cain that sin -- a particular sin -- was at the door, but he should master it.  The Pharisees with their agendas against Jesus might have had bribery and filling his mouth with slander to try to expedite matters in their plans against Him.  The fundamentalist idea that Jesus was warning him that if he ever missed the mark then he'd die of Aids doesn't really work for me any more.  A habit, a vow, a sanitation issue, or something was just around the corner that in his mind might have morally been a gray area.  Something of this nature is more likely what Jesus was appealing to him regarding.  Perhaps Jesus was telling him to quit lying about how he got what Jesus had to heal him of.  Some ol' lying war story was very likely not very cute to the Lord if it allowed him to be puffed up around others.  It could have been anything, but the sense of it being something in particular that was being addressed is too clear to me from the passage.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2008, 07:24:50 AM »
Permeating the popular media version of Christian doctrine is the lack of any recognition of justice.  A related very large topic is what so unethical a worldview in the minds of religious people means for their behavior!  Cartoon Christianity's popular teaching simply has no concept of justice, that there is a just recompense for doing right or wrong.  Whoever may have lived the most abominable life, if before death gets a certain idea he believes about Jesus, preferably along with a crisis experience affecting the emotions, won't suffer any consequences from a rotten life, but will receive undeserved heavenly bliss forever.  Whoever lives an upright life, sacrificing to raise good children, by not getting that certain idea to believe about Jesus before death will get no reward but will deservedly (!?) suffer eternal torment.  This should be recognized as what is indeed popularly taught.  It's either infinitude of grace, which involves nothing justly deserved, or it's infinitude of torment, which is impossible for finite, weak-willed, poor of resources, short-lived and mind-darkened man to justly earn.  Did they ever learn such simple arithmetic as 1+1=2, or, 2+2=4?

If I steal an apple God does not require infinite never ending repayment of apples.  That is not justice.  God states clearly what just recompense is in His written word.  To overthrow it and replace it with infinitudes is error very dark indeed.  To dismiss the description of Divine values with a misunderstood word, "legalism," may not be as dark but may prove just as deadly.  God provided a knowledge of right judgments for thieves.  They're to repay double (Ex 22:4) unless what was stolen can't be returned.  Then it's a fourfold repayment (Ex 22:1.)  If a man's means to make a living, the tools of his trade are stolen, like an ox, it is a fivefold restitution.  That is God's sanctions for thieves.  In Numbers 5:6-8 for any sin, it is the principle plus a 5th that is payed to the one wronged besides the ram of atonement.

Whatever must be exacted for an unforgiven sin would be appropriate to the offense.  It would be different in each case.  Blasphemy is to not harness a word with it's real value and meaning, but to unharness it, like those who said the resurrection was already past (early total preterists?)  From thoughts, to words in private, to attributing the miraculous work of God the Spirit to the demonic in order to accomplish the death of even the Messiah, these all are different things.

What is seemingly never considered is, if you commit a sin and pay for it, then that's the end of it.  The popular teaching is any sin is unrepayable and infinite.  Without Divine intervention the result is infinitude of evil (which ignores what that would do to God, but I digress.)  How about the sinner paying for his sin?  And, why pay for something forgiven?  Not just "justice," but the meaning of God is little known.  This leads to other important meanings of Christs death, like His becoming Lord of the dead and the end of Adam; but, that's another subject.  It's as if the oft repeated saying in both Hebrew and Greek Scripture, even taught by Jesus, that, "[God] will render to every man according to his deeds" has no power in many minds.  Repentance and faith are recompensable deeds bringing the forgiveness of sins that is preached in Jesus name into reality in any soul. 

Yet, as a child of God I've had to undergo much suffering and in various ways in order that the motions of sin in me would be put to death.  My early belief told me this could not happen because I was forgiven. But God wants us victorious and He wants us to understand what His will is.  Sometimes, after almost 40 years, I think I am all sin, at least in my flesh; but, it is not what determines who I am for I have learned of Christ.  Notice in the beginning of the book of Judges how first an angel judges Israel for disobeying by not driving out the nations as he told them to do.  Then it is God's anger.  Finally it is God who has left the nations there so that the generations to come could be tested and learn to war.  Are the nations there as an act of sin and rebellion, or are they there as an act of God's righteous judgement, or are they there by God's design so that they may be improved?

Judges 2:1-3...
1 And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.
2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?
3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.

Judges 2:20-23...
20 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice;
21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Joshua.

Judges 3:1-2...
1 Now these are the nations which the LORD left, to prove Israel by them, even as many of Israel as had not known all the wars of Canaan;
2 Only that the generations of the children of Israel might know, to teach them war, at the least such as before knew nothing thereof...

This is such a large subject and I must close for now.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 07:35:02 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2008, 01:32:33 PM »
I've neen thinking about this. Whoops dangerous ground  :laughing7:

Hebrews 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Mat 12:31  Because of this, I say to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men, but the blasphemy concerning the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.

I think the Spirit that is spoken of is not the Holy Spirit to be seen as 'entity' (by lack of a better word).
But more as the the idea/concept of what Jesus was actually doing on earth 2000 years ago.

An animal lamb (real sheep) had fairly clean blood that could cover sin for a while.
Then the Lamb of God came (Jesus) His blood was not only so pure it could (and will) cover all sins; it also cleaned/purged all sins.
The blasphemy spoken of in "Unforgiveable Sin" is not fully trusting what Jesus did. Trying to get saved by works. And even that (works) is no real problem with God I think because He surely loves seeing His children doing good things.
Things go awfully wrong with works when you do them to add to the power of Jesus.
With that you claim the blood of Jesus was not 100% pure. And that is the blasphemy spoken of.
IMHO....

ET might just be a form of that blasphemy. Afterall they claim the cleaning power of Jesus' blood was not enough in 95% of all cases and there fore God is 'forced' to kick them in the eternal BBQ.



« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 01:36:09 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Sarah

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2008, 03:08:49 PM »
Quote
Hebrews 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Mat 12:31  Because of this, I say to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men, but the blasphemy concerning the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.

I have considered that these two verses are not speaking to the same people, nor are they speaking of the same sin.

The verse in Hebrews is speaking to those who have been converted to Christianity and then later 'trampled the blood of Christ underfoot' by converting back to animal sacrifices. There remains no more sacrifice for them because they do not accept the only sacrifice that is available for them. They will then suffer the tribulation and anguish when the temple is destroyed with no hope.

The verse in Mathew seems to be to Pharasees who do not believe Jesus is the Christ. There blasphemy is that they are calling good evil, and will therefore suffer the consequences according to there own mouth.

Just an observation Iv'e made.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2008, 04:39:30 PM »
I have considered that these two verses are not speaking to the same people, nor are they speaking of the same sin.
I think they can be the same people.

Quote
The verse in Mathew seems to be to Pharasees who do not believe Jesus is the Christ.
Every non Christians plus some 'false' Christians.

But all of them can be converted to Christ in this life. Just like I personally came out the of the atheist group and am now wandering around towards the Christian group.

Quote
The verse in Hebrews is speaking to those who have been converted to Christianity and then later 'trampled the blood of Christ underfoot' by converting back to animal sacrifices.

I can't look in the minds of people but I think this group could contain a large if  not the largest part of the Christians.
There are no more animal sacrifices done nowaday by Christians. (I think)
But aren't 'good works' exactly the same?
Or doubts that the blood of Jesus was not enough for all/your own sins?

I think it greately depends on how strict the rules are applied. If extremely strict then all, except Jesus ofcourse, will suffer the second death.
Even the most devoted person gets dirty during his/her lifetime. I think it will get very busy in the showers of salvation... :pointlaugh:

Quote
Just an observation Iv'e made.
Likewise  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2008, 05:30:55 PM »
 
  Very  deep subject  fellows ,  and great points taken 
 I  for one  know that the flesh cannot inherit the Things of God [Spirit] 
 to me that is  why those whom

  do trodden under foot  the son of God are in trouble , it is because the  Son of God [Christ annointing ] must be in you  , near at the door , your hearts door  to recive them things of God to make us also sons of God  , it will not happen when  rejecting the [gift of grace] that is forgiveness  to me  , so many work  to gain acceptance  and it is without faith  ,  it must be faith with works , which is the Holy Spirit working in you  , to me the Holy Spirit is the Father and Son  together  as ONE ,   That is why Paulemphasized   in His words   about FAITH & GRACE  in and through Jesus Christ  making  It/sacrifice  effective !!  taking ahold  of , rooting within you , we cannot do it alone  , its not  possible without Gods Spirit and annointing &Christs presence within us    to me ...
  ps  the Fire  of Gods consuming is the fleshy part of us that  must be taken out of the way /consummed , that  Christ [the LIGHT ]  remains 

 
Hebrews 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 05:33:38 PM by rosered »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2008, 05:36:18 PM »
so many work  to gain acceptance  and it is without faith  ,  it must be faith with works , which is the Holy Spirit working in you  , to me the Holy Spirit is the Father and Son  together  as ONE

Exactly.
And when you leave out (complete) faith, you basicly reverted to sacrifices....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2008, 05:54:01 PM »
here it is  KJV Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. 
 
ESV Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, "See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you."
 
 
 N LTJhn 5:14 But afterward Jesus found him in the Temple and told him, "Now you are well; so stop sinning, or something even worse may happen to you."
I don't think that Jesus was asking/demanding sinless perfection in his own strength, particularly having in the back of His Mind that the new birth was months away from being available as well as being filled with the Holy Spirit, being cleansed by the Blood and being able to participate in the Bread and Cup daily as well with all of the temporal and heavenly benefits of that, etc.  I have a strong feeling that particular details were left out of the account that aren't any of our business about a particular sin that was being dealt with, whether gluttony, masturbation, wearing his feelings on his sleeves and barking at the moon over every little self determined injustice from others, stealing, venting at a particularly beautiful loved one to him, perhaps neglecting to pray since the prophet Samuel indicating something sinful in setting aside prayer, mouthing off at God for his lot in life, some particular of the Mosaic law that we'd recognize these days as a hygiene issue, or neglecting a vow he'd made to God that if God ever healed him, then...., etc.  I believe that Jesus was putting His finger on something in particular in the guy's life and was telling him that he'd just gotten his healing, things are looking up for him, so don't screw this or that up with that temper or by getting tossed in jail for stealing, in some other way opening the door to the devil, or whatever.  Or perhaps it was a warning similar to God's warning to Cain that sin -- a particular sin -- was at the door, but he should master it.  The Pharisees with their agendas against Jesus might have had bribery and filling his mouth with slander to try to expedite matters in their plans against Him.  The fundamentalist idea that Jesus was warning him that if he ever missed the mark then he'd die of Aids doesn't really work for me any more.  A habit, a vow, a sanitation issue, or something was just around the corner that in his mind might have morally been a gray area.  Something of this nature is more likely what Jesus was appealing to him regarding.  Perhaps Jesus was telling him to quit lying about how he got what Jesus had to heal him of.  Some ol' lying war story was very likely not very cute to the Lord if it allowed him to be puffed up around others.  It could have been anything, but the sense of it being something in particular that was being addressed is too clear to me from the passage.
I do agree Martin , it takes  that drawing near to God and Christ ,  the Spirit to remain in us to keep us safe  from harm .. God lov ya Bro ...

Offline rosered

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2008, 05:56:00 PM »
so many work  to gain acceptance  and it is without faith  ,  it must be faith with works , which is the Holy Spirit working in you  , to me the Holy Spirit is the Father and Son  together  as ONE

Exactly.
And when you leave out (complete) faith, you basicly reverted to sacrifices....
    Yes  WW , and the Lord loves obedience over sacrifices !
   I looked us  believe and  that means the same thing as obedience !

Kevin

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2008, 12:52:57 AM »
yup, it is a command, and He provided the way,
I don't mean this in any disrespect to the Word of Jesus,
I look at it as being a goal.
Be easy on me!

k

Offline rosered

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #60 on: November 04, 2008, 03:07:43 AM »
yup, it is a command, and He provided the way,
I don't mean this in any disrespect to the Word of Jesus,
I look at it as being a goal.
Be easy on me!

k
Easy on you Kevin lol .. Paul called it the same Bro ! :icon_flower: and I noted though Paul  did not see himself as perfect [complete] yet , He knew there were some that  were!!  :thumbsup:


Phl 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.   

Offline Sarah

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #61 on: November 04, 2008, 03:27:03 PM »
Quote
But aren't 'good works' exactly the same?
Or doubts that the blood of Jesus was not enough for all/your own sins?

I think it greately depends on how strict the rules are applied. If extremely strict then all, except Jesus ofcourse, will suffer the second death.
Even the most devoted person gets dirty during his/her lifetime. I think it will get very busy in the showers of salvation...

Yes, in my mind I can see how I've committed the unpardonable by calling evil good and also by not trusting that the sacrifice of Christ wasn't enough. But something about the context of the scriptures make me think that these things are different than what I have done. In the Mathew version He says that 'every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men' and even 'every word spoken against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven him'. Then He goes on to say that those who blaspheme the Spirit will not be forgiven in 'this age', or the 'age to come'. In my understanding, the current age was before Jesus died when the temple was still standing. The age after that was after Jesus died and the temple was still standing. This seems to be very time-specific. Perhaps the specific judgement against the Pharisee and the backsliding Christian was the national judgement.

Does it have any application to me? I believe so in that if I set myself in the position to call good, evil, and also to not trust in the sacrifice of Jesus that I do suffer a self-imposed judgement. But it is not the wrath of God as it was then, but rather a law of nature if you will.

Anyway, thank you for responding.

Love, Sarah

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #62 on: November 04, 2008, 03:46:38 PM »
Sarah,

Please don't read the following line as rude but just clumpsy with words:
What does that matter?

The most important point you just made is that the unpardonable is pardonable. It may take a while but it will be forgiven.
Personally I think the sin will be even forgiven in this lifetime if you repent in this lifetime.
Isn't all that sin vs punishment/correction about God showing us He was always right.
If you come to that understanding yourself (=repent) then there is no need anymore for God to teach what you already know.

About what you wrote about the temple. Personally I would find that strange because should my cursing of the HS be less punished than exactly the same curse (or even less) during the time of Jesus?

Romans 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.
That's not just about black/white, poor/rich, etc.
But alse about lived then/live now.

Just my  :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Sarah

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #63 on: November 04, 2008, 04:02:27 PM »
Quote
The most important point you just made is that the unpardonable is pardonable. It may take a while but it will be forgiven.

I believe the point I was trying to make is that we are not appointed to wrath, it was to a specific people in a specific time. I showed how I could apply the 'unpardonable' to me in this day and age, and yet even my application isn't exactly what Jesus was talking about. To say that we all commit the 'unpardonable' because we do these things I believe is to wretch these verses out of context. The argument that God is no respector of persons implies that we must all must have the same walk. This is obviously not true, but we do all have the same destination.

Offline rosered

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #64 on: November 04, 2008, 04:31:28 PM »
 
  Hi Sarah  and WW  and all ,
  I do know that your saying and this helped me to see that you might be right Sarah , see just how the Word of God is worded  , it makes me think many times  what I  have missed  before ,   note and consider this, it Says as  they  Teach & Speak , the blasphmy seems to be related to a teaching  and  a Speech dont you think ?

  and the seven times passing over in Daniel as well as 7 churches and the warnings as well as the comending by the Lord , seems  to imply  a complete [7 means complete]  course  of time and certain group of people ,  Now I know the word of God is/can mean  perpetual [anion] 
 so it may be a consistant  event that applys to all times and all peoples 
 because Gods Word is  unchangable /permanant /continuous ...

Rev 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. But that which ye have [already] hold fast till I come.

Do you  think it is possible to do the unforgivale sin ?,  when you know the Truth ,  that is the Warning    ,it can be done in ignorance though 
 
  blaspheming His Holy Name  is  upholding the Law yet breaking it too
 that is a  hypocricy  , and an evil work   being done to me  , why would anyone want to be apart of that? see what I mean ?  who wants to join in religion when it seems to destroy  any good ?  gives God a bad rap to me  :(   I hope I was clear , I dont have  the right  words  to explain very well   at times and  it frustrates me 
 God love ya all

  Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.   letter of the Law   to me  Paul is saying ?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 04:34:15 PM by rosered »

Offline Sarah

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2008, 03:50:33 PM »
Rosered,

This sin absolutly has to do with speaking. It has to do with speaking evil of the works that Christ did. Perhaps they didn't believe He was the Christ, but even worse than that, they called Him Beelzebub for driving out demons and healing the sick. When you think about that, how sick is that? I may not agree with every healing evalgelist, but I rejoice when someone is healed. Praise God!

Mathew 12:36-37  But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall seak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

It was the rich man that went to hell. The torment was on his tongue. He was suffering the results of what he spoke when he 'faired suptueously'.

Quote
Do you  think it is possible to do the unforgivale sin ?,  when you know the Truth ,  that is the Warning    ,it can be done in ignorance though 
 
  blaspheming His Holy Name  is  upholding the Law yet breaking it too
 that is a  hypocricy  , and an evil work   being done to me 

There is no such thing as an unforgivable sin, but rather a sin that would not be forgiven in 2 ages, and I believe those ages are past. That isn't to say their isn't consequence for being a 'pharisee' in today's day and age. I still believe you reap what you sow.

I understand that the evil work is done to you in that if you call yourself a Christian, then your name is blasphemed because the world may associate the evil work of Christian hypocrits with you. I completely understand this, but have come to the point that I don't care. Let your light so shine before men that they glorify your Father in heaven.

Quote
Now I know the word of God is/can mean  perpetual [anion] 
 so it may be a consistant  event that applys to all times and all peoples 
 because Gods Word is  unchangable /permanant /continuous ...

I can see this. I perhaps see it as more of a spiritual journey now though. Whereas in bible times, the Romans were the instrument that destroyed the 'chaff' of Israel, now God destroys within me the chaff. It is the Holy Spirit within that writes His laws upon my heart and mind and therefore burning away the chaff with unquenchable fire. If I were a 'pharisee' then perhaps I would resist His law of love to be written on my heart in this age/life(which has it's own miserable consequenses of living a miserable life), then perhaps at the end of this life I would suffer on my day of judgement with total loss and weeping and knashing of teeth. Even then, Christ is the savior of all men and I would be saved from my sin.

DeeDee

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #66 on: November 06, 2008, 05:08:04 PM »
Now I would love lots and lots of opinions on this. Why are the following verses not enough to debunk the idea of an unpardonable or unforgivable sin? Even if you translate Aion etc. into the words "eternal" or "forever" or you see it as "never has forgiveness"

1 John 1:7-9
Acts 13:39

 :icon_flower:
Blessings
Dee

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #67 on: November 06, 2008, 05:57:31 PM »
DD,

I see no reference to time in:
1 John 1:7-9  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It just tells us all are sinners and that the believe in Jesus will clean the sins.
Plus it doesn't exclude any type of sin. So it ranges from stealing a grain of sand from a dessert to the unforgivable sin you are aiming at.
Plus nothing tells us when we need to believe in Jesus. Yesterday? Today? Tommorrow? In 5 trillion years?

Acts 13:39  And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
For me it says:
The law of Moses was a good first step but not good enough to 'fix' everything.
Then Jesus came and believing in Him is enough to 'fix' all wrongs/sins.
As I understand it the unforgivable sin is so special, in a negative way, because it is the sin of rejecting the HS or IMO more like the whole Bible.
But as soon as you start believing the unforgivable is converted in forgivable. When? Don't ask me. But God/Jesus predicts there will be a time that all believe. And who believes is automatically cleaned from sins. And when clean from sins you get your spot in heaven.
=> Perhaps we will be neighbors. Don't walk on my lawn!!! :laughing7:

So basically I nowhere see a reference to certain types of sin. Neither do I see a time limitation.
The only clear thing is that all will be justified eventually.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

DeeDee

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #68 on: November 06, 2008, 06:04:30 PM »
So Tony, you are seeing what I am seeing? You are in agreement that it could pretty much cancel out thoughts of unforgivable sins? I already checked in a few bible translations, and ALL is ALL in ALL of them lol. :laughing7:

So I might be onto something here hmmmmmmmmm.  :dontknow:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #69 on: November 06, 2008, 06:22:08 PM »
If it reads all then it is all. There can be exceptions but then they have to be clear from context of made clear in a very near verse.
And by that I do not mean pick a verse with all and 500 pages pick the word 'often' and then jump to conclusions.

I don't know if it's a Biblical correct thing to do but I think every proof should be inside one book.
God doesn't lie.
Now assume book ABC is a very short book. It contains just one verse: "I God creator of everything hereby state that everything that ever lived and will live will be in heaven"
All the people who have read those words gone to hell and ask God what about book ABC?
God laughs.... Well you see book XYZ wasn't printed yet back then. But now, 100 years later, it is you can cleary read that I made an excepetion by stating "If you eat 2 tomatoes every monday evening between 19:00 and 21:00"

The Bible wasn't completed instantly. So some people missed out book XYZ...

I hope it makes some sense to someone  :laughing7:







Yesterday and today I've been watching Bruce Almighty and Evan Almighty.
Somehow in a funny way that's how I see God. Just watching how his children make a mess of thing. Poking some fun at them. Giving them a lesson to learn. And then work toward teh happy end :HeartThrob:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

mrsocko

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2009, 05:44:25 AM »
People who accept Jesus as Saviour are given Aionian life. The Spirit is the one who draws men and woman to God. If you do not accept the prodding of the Holy Spirit to accept Jesus as Saviour you must wait till the end of time to go to heaven.

Thus the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not accepting the prodding of the Spirit as it trys to draw you to Christ.

Being worried that you may have committed this sin is proof that you have not.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2009, 07:26:41 AM »
Being worried that you may have committed this sin is proof that you have not.

 :scratchhead:

mrsocko

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #72 on: February 24, 2009, 05:22:57 AM »
The only way people do not get Aionian life is by not accepting Jesus as Saviour. If you are worried you have committed the blaphemy of the Holy Spirit then you are concerned for your salvation. Thus the Spirit is still prodding you and drawing you.

The blasphemy is denying the Spirit or not believing the Spirit.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #73 on: February 24, 2009, 06:17:35 AM »
The only way people do not get Aionian life is by not accepting Jesus as Saviour. If you are worried you have committed the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit then you are concerned for your salvation. Thus the Spirit is still prodding you and drawing you.

The blasphemy is denying the Spirit or not believing the Spirit.

At fourteen years of age, I pondered the universe, and sought truth. And, have been on the road to Damascus - in His Presence. No worries, and there is much more to walking with Him than an acceptance, which I am sure you know, or will know.

"Faith is not believing God can, it's knowing that He Will."

peacemaker
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 06:19:35 AM by peacemaker »

Offline claypot

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2009, 03:20:06 PM »
KJV Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

I have sinned many times the same sin even now. When the Word does finally get through, get into my essence, (Temple), then I feel whole and I 'hear' the Word go forth in my being to sin no more.

cp


For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.