Author Topic: Unforgiveable Sin  (Read 39496 times)

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Offline Akira Takahashi

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2008, 05:46:09 AM »
A good way to find an answer to this particular question would be to conduct a poll. First of all, has anyone here never committed blaspheme against the Holy Spirit?

I've committed this sin more times than I care to admit; but admit them I shall, for the Bible teaches us to boast about our faults.  I've had moments like you, when I read a passage, and knowing that something is wrong, the temptation to actually commit said sin comes with full force.  It's like the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden with the serpent chanting, "Thou shalt not surely die!"

I've also committed blaspheme with full knowledge of what I was thinking.  Sometimes, the greater God's grace is, the quicker I am to attribute it to something or someone other than the Lord - the skeptic within me can't resist it.

Now, I'm willing to guess that everyone else on this board (or any other board for that matter) has had moments like these.  If we are all damned by it, then Heaven will have eluded all of us and God's grace would have failed.6

Offline studier

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2008, 07:03:38 AM »
Quote
First of all, has anyone here never committed blaspheme against the Holy Spirit?

What do you think Blasphemy is?

Amie

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2008, 07:28:38 PM »
I have a different perspective per the "unpardonable sin" that pretty much aligns with this article:  http://womenbeyond.com/?c=126&a=1174

In it, the reason that it is unpardonable is given. 

Just my point of view,

Amie

That is what I have believed for a long time.

What did you believe?  Perhaps there is a misunderstanding - or maybe there isn't.  Either way I'm very intrigued if you don't mind sharing.

Amie

Offline studier

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2008, 08:34:31 PM »
The article. The unpardonable sin not pardonable, because it is what brought the reconciliation of the world.

Amie

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2008, 06:15:50 AM »
The article. The unpardonable sin not pardonable, because it is what brought the reconciliation of the world.

I am not sure that I understand.  The article asserts that the sin in question could not be pardoned because those people only had a choice concerning the inheritance of the new covenant on humanity's behalf for a certain time frame -- an inheritance already historically received by the "first fruits".  It was a missed opportunity and it is an opportunity that we today are not confronted with.

Amie

Offline Akira Takahashi

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2008, 04:32:08 AM »
Quote
First of all, has anyone here never committed blaspheme against the Holy Spirit?

What do you think Blasphemy is?


This is a very good question, and I admit that it stumped me for a while.  What is blasphemy?  I believe it is to speak, or think, out against the Holy Spirit, the Son, or the Lord.  It is what happens when you attribute His wonders to someone or something other than Him.  I always had also assumed that when a believer doubts the existence of God, that is also blasphemy.

Needless to say, if I am correct in my gut instinct about what blasphemy is, then I have sinned many more times than I could possibly imagine.

Now, I'm still putting thought into this question, and I will return with a more complete answer at a later time.

Offline Akira Takahashi

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2008, 04:39:27 AM »
Quote
First of all, has anyone here never committed blaspheme against the Holy Spirit?

What do you think Blasphemy is?


I admit that your question stumped me for a long time, and I'm still not quite sure how to answer it.  All I can do is use my intuition and logic to try and answer your question.

First of all, according to Merriam-Webster, "blasphemy" is, "The act of expressing lack of reverence for God."  Also, "Irreverence toward something considered sacred."

By that logic, we can deduce that anything disrespectful towards God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit would be considered blasphemy.  When we doubt the existence of God, take His name in vain, use His word to promote our own ambitions, etc.  By that definition, has anyone never disrespected God, Jesus, or the Holy Ghost?  Even Biblical characters have committed this sin!  Thomas doubted, Peter denied, Judas betrayed, and that's just the apostles!

Offline Tony N

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2008, 09:13:44 PM »
If time's a factor in keeping anyone away from the Lord because of a sin of this nature, the Lord's more than capable of creating a brand new time line upon which to place the person who has committed this sin.  Some might say that there's no promise of that.  And in my early years in UR, I'd of given precisely the exact same answer as Tony Nungesser gave above.  And then after a while, I got to thinking.... But, wait a minute, [letter of the law vs. life-giving Spirit again] I've done this kinda crap both in my preteens and in my early 20s around 1996 and 1997.  And yet, few in the history of mankind have ever been recipients of as much of the grace of God as I've received, IF anybody else has ever received this much grace 'cause absolutely all grace without any limitation or qualification is abounding towards me perpetually without any end in sight. 

Hi Martin,
I guess I didn't clarify myself very well concerning this topic.
#1, I don't believe that a believer today, under grace, need worry about being pardoned for committing the Blasphemy of the holy spirit. . . . we are saved by grace, not by works (or lack thereof).

#2 I don't think we, today, can commit the sin.

#3 The timeline Christ set down for those in His day for committing the blasphemy of the holy spirit was for this eon and that (eon) which is impending. They were not under grace.

Does this help?
Tony
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

martincisneros

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2008, 11:20:37 PM »
Hi Martin,
I guess I didn't clarify myself very well concerning this topic.
#1, I don't believe that a believer today, under grace, need worry about being pardoned for committing the Blasphemy of the holy spirit. . . . we are saved by grace, not by works (or lack thereof).

#2 I don't think we, today, can commit the sin.

#3 The timeline Christ set down for those in His day for committing the blasphemy of the holy spirit was for this eon and that (eon) which is impending. They were not under grace.

Does this help?
Tony
Hi Tony,

That did help to clarify a bit on where you're coming from on this particular subject.  Thanks for dropping by.  We haven't had enough people around here lately that know what they're talking about!  And I don't mean that in a derogatory way towards anybody.  I mean that people have either been out of commission because of surgery and recovery, the economy playing nasty card games with their livelihoods, or folks have been moving to other cities, people have been taking time off with getting banned depending on who's been the latest to want to get a little too abusive about something, etc., etc.  And I have a sneaky suspicion that some of the new season on television programing has also helped to thin out some of the posting with certain hours in certain time zones.  It's also an election year in the U.S., so some people might care more about that than others do.  So, basically, a lot of folks that we've been needing around here haven't been around here.  So, thank you for dropping by!!

Offline Tony N

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2008, 05:12:28 PM »
Hi Martin,
I don't know if I can class myself with those who "know what they are talking about" LOL! Like O.J. I often just "take a stab in the dark" LOL. But there are some things I think I do have a handle on and it is not due to me but through much pleading, prayer and thanksgiving to our merciful God and Father. Through many hundreds if not many thousands of hours in testing out my reality map in internet discussions I think I can say I have been tested and tried in the crucible of fire and the dross of wrongful beliefs has been drawn off. Now to endeavor to live in accord with those beliefs! Ah, much more grace is needed!

I think it is normal that so many are off on other tangents. Life is in a constant state of flux. This forces us to "rely on the living God" 1 Tim.2:4) and cry "Abba! Father!."

In Him,
In Whom our lot is cast also,
Tony

Hi Martin,
I guess I didn't clarify myself very well concerning this topic.
#1, I don't believe that a believer today, under grace, need worry about being pardoned for committing the Blasphemy of the holy spirit. . . . we are saved by grace, not by works (or lack thereof).

#2 I don't think we, today, can commit the sin.

#3 The timeline Christ set down for those in His day for committing the blasphemy of the holy spirit was for this eon and that (eon) which is impending. They were not under grace.

Does this help?
Tony
Hi Tony,

That did help to clarify a bit on where you're coming from on this particular subject.  Thanks for dropping by.  We haven't had enough people around here lately that know what they're talking about!  And I don't mean that in a derogatory way towards anybody.  I mean that people have either been out of commission because of surgery and recovery, the economy playing nasty card games with their livelihoods, or folks have been moving to other cities, people have been taking time off with getting banned depending on who's been the latest to want to get a little too abusive about something, etc., etc.  And I have a sneaky suspicion that some of the new season on television programing has also helped to thin out some of the posting with certain hours in certain time zones.  It's also an election year in the U.S., so some people might care more about that than others do.  So, basically, a lot of folks that we've been needing around here haven't been around here.  So, thank you for dropping by!!
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Our Wings are Burning

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2008, 02:00:13 AM »
Like O.J. I often just "take a stab in the dark" LOL.

Wow.

Tony brings the dark humor.

Amie

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2008, 05:30:17 PM »
Quote
Mat 12:30  The one who is not with Me is against Me, and the one who does not gather with Me scatters.
Mat 12:31  Because of this, I say to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men, but the blasphemy concerning the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.
Mat 12:32  And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, not in this age nor in the coming one.

Tony,

The people, who we agree Jesus was talking to contextually in his day, could not be forgiven in that age or in the one which was coming.  The coming age for them was this age of grace.  So how could they not be forgiven in this age of grace either?

My own view is that is because of, again contextually, what forgiveness meant for them in that day.  Perhaps we can already agree that the cross was for "sinners" and that forgiveness was all encompassing?  Because then we can move forward from there.  Maybe you would consider at least imagining that were true, and entertain it as true just to understand the point that I'm trying to communicate?  I hope you'll extend me that honor, or that rope, depending on how you see things, lol!

One of my most favorite biblical statements is:

Quote
Rom 3:3  For what if some did not believe? Will not their unbelief nullify the faith of God?

I would definately argue that a person's belief did not determine their state of forgivenness.  It was the faith of God which could and did accomplish great things.

Personal belief in the saving ability of the faith of God meant a call into service for them.  Salvation came through belief in the saving faith of Jesus - else Jesus was not the Savior.  In what way they served is quite interesting.  One title open for consideration is "first fruits".  It's a worthy study to go back into the old testament and discover the function of such.

That aside however, there are all of those texts which suggest that belief saved them from "gehenna fire" and "a resurrection of judgment".  The accomplishment at the cross meant that the old system would be passing away.  Jesus warned those who put their faith in works via the law that their works would not save them.  Rather, they would experience the passing of that world as suffering.  Their would be "weeping, and gnashing of the teeth".  If they would only receive into their hearts the forgiveness already afforded them, they would understand that there is no need to continue on with the things of old and they would be safe from that which was about to befall the "old Jerusalem".

They did not acknowledge their forgiveness.  They would not believe Jesus.  So they would not be pardoned from the consequences of lawbreaking - which are paid wholly in this life.  They would be stoned to death.  Interesting that Revelation uses the words "stung by scorpions" as the Roman catapults were literally called "scorpions" after their design. 

Their choice isn't something that they could go back and make again after the passing of the old age.  They had a single change at taking advantage of forgiveness, and turning it away (via speaking against) meant that they rejected the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  Never would they have such an opportunity again - not in their age, or in this one.  Rather, the smoke of their testing rises forever.  The destruction was permanent.

I'm writing this to share my point of view, not to change your own mind.  I am interested in what you think though, and am hoping that if you disagree that you do so with kindness :-).

Amie




Offline Tony N

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2008, 05:54:08 PM »
Quote
Mat 12:30  The one who is not with Me is against Me, and the one who does not gather with Me scatters.
Mat 12:31  Because of this, I say to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men, but the blasphemy concerning the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.
Mat 12:32  And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, not in this age nor in the coming one.

Tony,

The people, who we agree Jesus was talking to contextually in his day, could not be forgiven in that age or in the one which was coming.  The coming age for them was this age of grace.  So how could they not be forgiven in this age of grace either?

Hi Amie,
First off, I like your humor! If I disagree I hope it is always taken in kindness as you request.
I feel overwhelmed by all you wrote. So, since my time is limited, I will only focus on one point: "that age or in the age which was coming." Then you allude to "the age coming" which is (according to your POV) this age of grace in which we are now living.

 To me, there are a couple things wrong (and I say that in kindness) with this POV.
1. The Bible never says anything about "the age of grace" or "the age of law." It does however say we are living in "the present wicked eon" (Galatians 1:4). Ephesians 3:2 does however say that we are under the "administration of grace" which Paul was the administrator of.

2. In the New Testament, all ages or eons are of the epochal type i.e. brought about by immense destruction, examples: (Noah's flood bringing the eon in which we now live, then world-wide earthquake preceding the millennium, in which all the cities of the nations fall, then later, the world conflagrated by fire prior to new earth).

The blasphemy of the spirit would not be pardoned by the King (Jesus) in this eon aiwn or in that (eon) which is impending. It will not be pardoned in this eon or in the eon to come in which Gehenna will be operative.

Just because this sin is never *pardoned* does not mean the criminal will never be freed. In our judicial system we do the same thing. If a criminal is doing 40 years from a crime and the governor or president never pardons him, then he will remain incarcerated until his time is done. Likewise, the one comitting the unpardoned sin will do the full time for the crime and then be loosed.

Sorry if I can't, at this time, answer to the rest of your post. You may not agree with me concerning these things. That's O.K. if that is the case. We'll just consider this a "cultural exchange."
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Amie

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2008, 06:53:32 PM »
Tony,

I like that, "cultural exchange".  Whether we agree or not, we can get to know one another, no? 

I apologize for the terminology "age of grace".  I borrowed it from other posts making the assumption that "this age" is commonly seen as "the age of grace" by the people here.  I made a mistake in such a broad generalization.

I do not see Paul's "we" as including myself and you.  Rather, it included the Galatians that he was writing and addressing.  Biblically, the world ("Kosmos") of Noah passed away in the flood.  Then there was only what Jesus, Paul etc termed "this world/aion" and "the world/aion to come".  The kosmos of Noah existed within the old aion.  The old aion began in Genesis 2 and the forgiveness of sins imputed upon all ended it.

That world/aion had within it certain elements.  There was the temple, where sacrifice was offered and had to be offered yearly.  There were the leadership thereof, who determined who was worthy of the presence of God (in the "holy of holies") and how near they could come to it -- or whether they would be entirely exiled or killed.  They earned righteousness through keeping the law in the flesh.

The flesh btw, was the weakness of the law itself.  They believed what their eyes and ears witness per their ability to keep it and they believed their eyes and ears per their ability to even understand it.  They believed that because they could clearly see that they had never slept with a woman outside a covenantal bond, for example, that they were innocent of adultery.  They felt that that could justly stone adulterers therefore, and they did.  That is, until the law was righteously interpreted by Jesus and their innocence questioned within their own consciences.

Anyhow, that world was entirely different than this one and the evidence of its' passing was the fall of the temple.  When Jesus talked about that fall, the disciples understood that as the end of their world and asked him for signs leading up to it which he then gave them.  Keep in mind though that those were signs leading up to the fall of the temple/the end of their world. 

Paul breaks down in Galatians the allegory of two covenants.  In Hebrews 8 he again talks about the coming covenant and writes "In the saying, New, He has made the first old. And the thing being made old and growing aged is near disappearing." (vs 13)

In Paul's day it was "near disappearing".  And what was the evidence for the end?  The fall of the temple.

Per "earthquake":

Quote
Mat 27:50  And crying again with a loud voice, Jesus released His spirit.
Mat 27:51  And, behold! The veil of the temple was torn into two from above as far as below. And the earth quaked, and the rocks were sheared!
Mat 27:52  And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
Mat 27:53  And coming forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered into the holy city and were revealed to many.
Mat 27:54  But the centurion and those with him guarding Jesus, seeing the earthquake and the things taking place, they feared exceedingly, saying, Truly this One was Son of God.

Isn't this indicative of timing?  Or:

Quote
Mat 28:1  But late in the sabbaths, at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary came to gaze upon the grave.
Mat 28:2  And, behold! A great earthquake occurred! For descending from Heaven and coming near, an angel of the Lord rolled away the stone from the door and was sitting on it. 

Or:

Quote
Act 16:25  And having prayed, toward midnight Paul and Silas praised God in a hymn. And the prisoners listened to them.
Act 16:26  And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the jail were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and all of the bonds were loosened.

Actually, when Jesus was naming the signs leading up to the fall of the temple, he listed:

Quote
Mat 24:7  For nation will be raised against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there will be famines and plagues and earthquakes against many places.

There were many earthquakes.

I think it is so important to consider the relevance of who is being addressed in any text.  When Moses said "Let my people go" to the Pharaoh, no one assumes that is talking to us as well.  Jesus talks often to his disciples and the texts say so, yet people assume that he is talking with them as well.  And Paul's letters are "letters" with addressees.  The "you" or "we" isn't us, but whomever he is writing.  That doesn't mean that means nothing to us.

I agree with you that the unpardonability of the sin of blaspheming the holy spirit doesn't mean that the people not believing Jesus and burning in "Gehenna fire" would not be gathered to God as well.

Firstly, "Gehenna" was a literal place.  It was the "Valley of Hinnom" just south of Jerusalem.  It was a place where they burned trash and bodies that they did not consider righteous enough for proper burial.  The place had been considered unclean by the Jews since it had been used as a place to offer human sacrifice to the god Baal.  The bodies burning in the heap were slow burning and warm - enabling the breeding of maggots, hence "where the worm dieth not".  Jerusalem absolutely mirrored that place after the Roman seige - read the history. 

They would not have another chance to believe that Jesus is Savior rather than the temple system because that system would be cast down, and many people would suffer in the "flames of Gehenna".  However:

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Hos 1:7  And I will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by Jehovah their God. And I will not save them by bow or by sword, or by battle, by horses, or by horsemen.

Quote
1Co 3:15  If the work of anyone shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss; but he will be saved, but so as through fire.

What happened with Israel was a revelation of the solution for a human-wide problem:  sin and the death which resulted in it.

Amie




Offline Tony N

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2008, 05:30:53 PM »
Tony,

I like that, "cultural exchange".  Whether we agree or not, we can get to know one another, no? 

Yes, that is very good to try to understand each other.

Quote
Amie: I apologize for the terminology "age of grace".  I borrowed it from other posts making the assumption that "this age" is commonly seen as "the age of grace" by the people here.  I made a mistake in such a broad generalization.

I do not see Paul's "we" as including myself and you.  Rather, it included the Galatians that he was writing and addressing.  Biblically, the world ("Kosmos") of Noah passed away in the flood.  Then there was only what Jesus, Paul etc termed "this world/aion" and "the world/aion to come".  The kosmos of Noah existed within the old aion.  The old aion began in Genesis 2 and the forgiveness of sins imputed upon all ended it.

Tony: That is good you see that aiwn beginning in Gen.1:2 and ending with the flood. I don't understand, though, what you mean by: "the forgiveness of sins imputed upon all ended it." If their sins were forgiven, why the need for a world=wide flood? If you could further clarify this point of yours, that would be appreciated. The "we" of Galatians should always be understood by its contextual setting. Sometimes the "we" is to be understood as only Paul and those bringing the evangel to the Galatians (Gal.1:9 etc.). Other times "we" is used of Paul and the Galatians and other times  "we" should be thought of as applying to all believers.

Quote
Amie: That world/aion had within it certain elements.  There was the temple, where sacrifice was offered and had to be offered yearly.  There were the leadership thereof, who determined who was worthy of the presence of God (in the "holy of holies") and how near they could come to it -- or whether they would be entirely exiled or killed.  They earned righteousness through keeping the law in the flesh.

The flesh btw, was the weakness of the law itself.  They believed what their eyes and ears witness per their ability to keep it and they believed their eyes and ears per their ability to even understand it.  They believed that because they could clearly see that they had never slept with a woman outside a covenantal bond, for example, that they were innocent of adultery.  They felt that that could justly stone adulterers therefore, and they did.  That is, until the law was righteously interpreted by Jesus and their innocence questioned within their own consciences.

Anyhow, that world was entirely different than this one and the evidence of its' passing was the fall of the temple.  When Jesus talked about that fall, the disciples understood that as the end of their world and asked him for signs leading up to it which he then gave them.  Keep in mind though that those were signs leading up to the fall of the temple/the end of their world. 

Paul breaks down in Galatians the allegory of two covenants.  In Hebrews 8 he again talks about the coming covenant and writes "In the saying, New, He has made the first old. And the thing being made old and growing aged is near disappearing." (vs 13)

In Paul's day it was "near disappearing".  And what was the evidence for the end?  The fall of the temple.

Tony: There was much more that had to happen to bring about the ending of that aiwn than just the fall of Jerusalem and the temple, you know. Jesus didn't say that the only thing left to happen for this aiwn to end is the fall of Jerusalem. Beginning in Matthew 24:3 ending His discourse in Matthew 25:46. He begins to tell His disciples all that must occur to bring to end this aiwn. I would hope you would agree with me that all those things have not yet occurred.
It could be the "near disappearing" was the bringing in the new covenant as the writer of Hebrews spoke of in Hebrews 9, the next chapter after the one you bring up.

Quote
Amie: Per "earthquake":

Quote
Mat 27:50  And crying again with a loud voice, Jesus released His spirit.
Mat 27:51  And, behold! The veil of the temple was torn into two from above as far as below. And the earth quaked, and the rocks were sheared!
Mat 27:52  And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
Mat 27:53  And coming forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered into the holy city and were revealed to many.
Mat 27:54  But the centurion and those with him guarding Jesus, seeing the earthquake and the things taking place, they feared exceedingly, saying, Truly this One was Son of God.

Isn't this indicative of timing?  Or:

Quote
Mat 28:1  But late in the sabbaths, at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary came to gaze upon the grave.
Mat 28:2  And, behold! A great earthquake occurred! For descending from Heaven and coming near, an angel of the Lord rolled away the stone from the door and was sitting on it. 

Or:

Quote
Act 16:25  And having prayed, toward midnight Paul and Silas praised God in a hymn. And the prisoners listened to them.
Act 16:26  And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the jail were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and all of the bonds were loosened.

Actually, when Jesus was naming the signs leading up to the fall of the temple, he listed:

Quote
Mat 24:7  For nation will be raised against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there will be famines and plagues and earthquakes against many places.

There were many earthquakes.

Tony: Yes, there were many earthquakes but none of those brought about the fall of the cities of the nations (world-wide destruction) This earthquake will be so great that nothing like it has ever occurred in human history:
Rev 16:18 And lightnings and voices and thunders occurred. And a great earthquake occurred, such as did not occur since mankind came to be on the earth; of such proportions was the quake and so great." When this specific quake happens it will usher in the next aiwn.

Quote
Amie: I think it is so important to consider the relevance of who is being addressed in any text.  When Moses said "Let my people go" to the Pharaoh, no one assumes that is talking to us as well.  Jesus talks often to his disciples and the texts say so, yet people assume that he is talking with them as well.  And Paul's letters are "letters" with addressees.  The "you" or "we" isn't us, but whomever he is writing.  That doesn't mean that means nothing to us.

Tony: I agree that the "my people" Moses was talking about was not us. Likewise, what Jesus said to His disciples does not apply to us. Paul was the apostle to the nations. He wrote to the nations. (see Galatians 2). I'm confused by your last three sentences above. The word "Ephesians" does not appear in that letter. It was a circular letter for all believers of the nations. All that Paul wrote is for us of the nations.

Quote
Amie: I agree with you that the unpardonability of the sin of blaspheming the holy spirit doesn't mean that the people not believing Jesus and burning in "Gehenna fire" would not be gathered to God as well.

Tony: Whew! You are lucky you agreed with me on that point! I was about to give you over to Satan for the extermination of your flesh (1 Cor.5:5)  :laughing7:

Quote
Amie: Firstly, "Gehenna" was a literal place.  It was the "Valley of Hinnom" just south of Jerusalem.  It was a place where they burned trash and bodies that they did not consider righteous enough for proper burial.  The place had been considered unclean by the Jews since it had been used as a place to offer human sacrifice to the god Baal.  The bodies burning in the heap were slow burning and warm - enabling the breeding of maggots, hence "where the worm dieth not".  Jerusalem absolutely mirrored that place after the Roman seige - read the history. 

Tony: Good!

Quote
Amie: They would not have another chance to believe that Jesus is Savior rather than the temple system because that system would be cast down, and many people would suffer in the "flames of Gehenna".  However:

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Hos 1:7  And I will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by Jehovah their God. And I will not save them by bow or by sword, or by battle, by horses, or by horsemen.

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1Co 3:15  If the work of anyone shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss; but he will be saved, but so as through fire.

What happened with Israel was a revelation of the solution for a human-wide problem:  sin and the death which resulted in it.

Amie

Tony: I like your Hosea 1:7 quote. However, I am curious about what you wrote just before that. When Christ comes back to set up His millennial reign He will re-institute Gehenna. It might be that very few will have their dead bodies cast therein. But there will be some as we well know. Will He not also not just re-institute the law but make it actually harder per His sermon on the mount?
I'm curious if you take "as through fire" to mean "through fire" literally as per 1 Cor.3:15?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Amie

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2008, 08:12:22 PM »
Quote from: Tony
That is good you see that aiwn beginning in Gen.1:2 and ending with the flood.

No, I don't see the aion which began in Genesis 1 as ending with the flood.  The "kosmos" of Noah ended there, not the "aion".  I see that aion as ended by the forgiveness of sin and susequent removal of the system which gave sin strength.

Quote from: Tony
..and other times "we" should be thought of as applying to all believers.

Where?

Quote from: Tony
There was much more that had to happen to bring about the ending of that aiwn than just the fall of Jerusalem and the temple, you know. Jesus didn't say that the only thing left to happen for this aiwn to end is the fall of Jerusalem.

Yep, the fall of the temple marked the end of the aion.  The disciples recognized that.  When Jesus said that the temple would fall, they then asked when the time of the end would be.  The temple signified much more than some building.  It was the very place where the presence of God dwelled among humanity.  It was the place where judgments were made in accordance to man's interpretation of God's law.
 
Quote from: Tony
I would hope you would agree with me that all those things have not yet occurred.

Yeppers, I believe that all prophesy has come to pass. 

Quote from: Tony
It could be the "near disappearing" was the bringing in the new covenant as the writer of Hebrews spoke of in Hebrews 9, the next chapter after the one you bring up.

If you believe that the old covenant is not passed, then folks can still gain forgiveness of sin through sacrifice at the temple.  All of those agreements still stand as we would be in transition.

You brought up:

Quote from: Tony
Rev 16:18  And voices and thunders and lightnings occurred. And a great earthquake occurred, such as did not occur since man came into being on the earth, such a huge earthquake, so great!
Rev 16:19  And the great city came to be into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the anger of His wrath.

There was an immeasurable earthquake which ripped the "great city" into three parts.  This is metaphorical language for the completion of the old Jerusalem/covenant.  The "great city" was old Jerusalem:

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Luk 21:20  And when you see Jerusalem being encircled by armies, then recognize that its destruction has come near.

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Mat 23:37  Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those sent to her. How often I desired to gather your children in the way a bird gathers her chicks under her wings! And you did not desire it.

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Rom 11:2  "God did not thrust away His people" whom He foreknew. Psa. 94:14 Or do you not know what the Scripture said in Elijah, how he pleaded with God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3  Lord, "they killed Your prophets," "and they dug down Your altars," "and only I am left, and they seek my life." 1 Kg. 19:10

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1Th 2:14  For, brothers, you became imitators of the assemblies of God being in Judea in Christ Jesus, because you also suffered these things by your own fellow countrymen, as they did also by the Jews,
1Th 2:15  who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, also having driven us out, and not pleasing God, and being contrary to all men,

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Rev 17:4  And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and being gilded with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominations and unclean things of her fornication.
Rev 17:5  And on her forehead was a name having been written: Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of the Harlots and of the Abominations of the Earth.
Rev 17:6  And I saw the woman being drunk from the blood of the saints, and from the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And I marveled, seeing her, with a great marveling.

Purple was the color of the priests' robes.  I could go on and on, but maybe you get the gist?  My intent isn't to convert you to my view, but to share my view.  Even if you do not agree with it, my hope is that it will at least be understood.

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The word "Ephesians" does not appear in that letter. It was a circular letter for all believers of the nations.

Hmm, why do you think it is called and accepted as the letter to the Ephesians?  The Ephesian church is mentioned in Acts and is addressed in Revelation 2.

Quote from: Tony
When Christ comes back to set up His millennial reign He will re-institute Gehenna.

I've never read anything about a "reinstitution".  Those who put their faith in the old covenant were cast into Gehenna just as he said. 

Quote from: Tony
Will He not also not just re-institute the law but make it actually harder per His sermon on the mount?

Again, I've never read anything about a "reinstitution".  There were prophecies, and there were the fulfillment of those prophecies.  There was the law, and there was the fulfillment of that law.  I am failing to see anything additional in the bible story. 

The problem of the law was always the weakness of the flesh.  The "mind of flesh" (ie Romans 8:5-7, Col 2:18) lacked the ability to properly interpret the law.  The law was the strength of sin, as it convicted people.  Jesus completed the law with love.  "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do" for example.  What must you do in order to earn the love of God?  Nothing.  That's the gospel.

Quote from: Tony
I'm curious if you take "as through fire" to mean "through fire" literally as per 1 Cor.3:15?

It is both literal and symbol.  I wrote a short article sharing my biblical perspective of it:  http://www.womenbeyond.com/?c=126&a=1148
Sorry for the slow response time :).

Amie

HealingMe

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2008, 11:31:27 PM »
As someone who's struggled with extreme uncertainty, I think maybe the person who originally started this thread is looking for a simple answer that can rest his or her worried mind. I know that with certain topics a simple answer isn't always easy to give, but I think we could offer this person a great deal of inner peace by simply reminding him or her that God died for our sins and that ALL will be forgiven. There is no such thing as an eternal punishment and, therefore, no such thing as an unforgivable sin.

Amie

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2008, 05:52:54 PM »
Healing,

You have a kind heart. 

I do think that there 'was' such a thing as an unforgivable sin, it is mentioned in the biblical text; I just do not think that the "hell" that they experienced was after they died.  I think that it was as simple as the law calling for the biological death of lawbreakers and the folks who clung to the law instead of Jesus were not forgiven for their lawbreaking.  They just didn't accept their forgiveness so when the old system passed away, they suffered. 

Why wouldn't knowing that this was not a choice that we were even confronted with bring a person inner peace?  (rhetorical)

Amie

DeeDee

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2008, 01:32:35 PM »
I know this topic is now an old one but I really want to add my :2c:. I two feel I have committed this sin. I admit that even tho I have asked over and over for forgiveness I still feel a bit condemned at times. See my problem came in (and I know I have mentioned it before on the forums) when I recently read of the unforgivable sin. Now in my mind I can't ever remember hearing about something like that before (the idea of some sin that is unforgivable). I suddenly got very very worried as in my youth i used to blaspheme (to say the least) ALL the members of the trinity when I used to get really upset about something. I feel very ashamed about this today. Anyhow once i read about this particular sin I became obsessed with trying to think back on how badly I used to do this (in my youth). Then something awful happened while I was in the shower. I put in my mind what blasphemy is (in other words cuss words) and i put the word / name H.S to this word and before i knew it i was thinking awful blasphemous thoughts (which I admit I still sometimes do because i obsess over this so much at times). I even made the mistake of verbalising one of my thoughts about The H.S (worst one imaginable) to my husband in a stupid, stupid attempt to try and establish (by discussing what i think it is and isn't) what this unforgivable sin entails exactly. I really didn't think before I spoke. What makes this worse for me is that i have been researching endlessly for weeks online what this sin is and what it isnt and it just make me feel so much worse. I love The Lord so very much and the thought that I might never get to Heaven is awful. I have been going through weeks and weeks of H-ll. Not able to eat or sleep. I joined these forums yesterday (I think or the day before) and last night was the first night I could actually sleep without tossing and turning and waking up to weird thoughts etc. I must admit tho I did have a nightmare. So to all those in the same boat you are not alone and my heart goes out to you because I know exactly how you feel.

Faith In Christ
DeeDee

Offline WhiteWings

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« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 02:15:10 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Kevin

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2008, 05:31:08 PM »
Forum,

Unforgivable Sin, Forum has covered this in the Spirit of Truth. Somewhat exhaustively. Which I believe.

I have my beliefs based on the Word, Holy Spirit, Jesus. UR, US, ect.

There is a lot of Love, Agape, here. That said, I would like to add to the question, somewhat the other side of the
coin. At this time I will not explain my beliefs regarding the adding to the question.

Question: In this world, the prince's world, and Christian Society in general,
What is forgiveness for a person who has sinned against his fellow man? What are the implications for a believer,
UR or not, generally? When that person who clearly sinned against his fellow Christian, and asked for forgiveness
from Christian Society, in general and from Abba in the Name of Jesus.

This is a loaded question,
The general answer I still get is
" I will forgive you, but I Will not forget".
This was the torment I dealt with my fellow general
Christians, in the past.
K

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2008, 06:26:54 PM »
Hi Kevin,


Forgiveness is a tough thing,  as humans we cannot really see the heart of another person.  I think it is reasonable to say that if you do wrong to me I can forgive you and that allows my heart to move past hatred and revenge.   I do not believe however my forgiveness obligates me to concede to your wishes towards me.


This is a real example in my own life.   I had a friend that I developed an e-mail relationship with, it was kinds wierd as I knew this person in real life too, but most of our interation was in e-mail.   I ended up breaking off that friendship and I did it in a very harsh and vindictive way because of some real in person things.  I was wrong for doing that,  I asked for forgiveness and that apology was accepted.  Now, what I wanted was for my friend to go back to the way things was in our friendship,  that didn't happen and I got angry over that.

In the end, I do not have the right to expect those things from anyone even if they forgive me because this person rightly may have forgiven me but it is not unforgiveness that did not allow the situation to return to what it was.

Thats called reaping what we sow.

Not sure if that helps your inquiry or not.



For instance, lets take an extreme example.  If someone rapes my daughter, I can move past the feelings, I can understand that I am not to wish the person dead, or wish that evil things happen to them.   However, I do not believe that in general I am obligated to invite the person over for dinner.

I could be wrong,  I just think sometimes things along those lines is a subtle way of testing God on the subject which we are not to do.


Kevin

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin, I am going somewhere with this.
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2008, 07:13:10 PM »
Forum,
Subject: sin stacking.

Sin, yes go to your brother or sister, and ask for forgiveness, and to your Abba, Abba forgives you
because of His Son, that is in the Word, again simple.

Question 1. Does Abba forgive and forget, simple question? Answer I believe is yes.

Here is where the torment, no longer for me, Shalom. But for the general Christians, is in the Broad emotional
source of torment. I see this in the forum, at times, not only from new seekers. And in my personal walk. I have seen
this destroy many real Christian, sometimes partially, sometimes completely.

Jesus of course is the Redeemer.

Example: At one time I was tormented because of this example, because many Christian, said they forgiven me
for what I had done, but it was clear they did not, [ sin stacking ] nor did they forget, generally,
and when they, generally, could
 it was brought up again, not only in words, but in actions. " once a [ fill in the blanks ] alway a [ blank ]."

That is now ok with me, now. I am forgiven, completely by Abba, through Jesus. I don't think, believe there is any Scripture
that says Shalom will come, if someone, anyone forgives me, here on earth.
Again, I am sometimes repetative, I have seen
many destroyed by not knowing this in their Spirit.

Example 02. Brief: I work[ed] with a Christian for 3 years who is living in this torment. I have walked through this with him,
by Scripture and with prayer, and will continue to do so. They say they believe this Scripture, but can not believe
it apples to them, regarding this example.
I have watched this person self-destruct, slowly at times as they lost hope in being forgiven by the
world, and because this did not come, the person could not forgive them self,
despite understanding Scripture, and seeing me walk through this true forgiveness.

So, where am I going with this, gota remind myself sometimes.

Aside from the stated topic: "Unforgivable Sin".

At this time, it brings to mind: the self imposed lie, the pretense,
that this example is the other "Unforgivable Sin".

K

Offline rosered

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2008, 07:29:55 PM »

 
  There is no doubt God forgives sins , but it comes with a warning , and I find many folks blow that off  as nothing ,  and  I dont think thats  a good thing to do , we are to hate evil  and do good  , that makes the Lords work/life /sacrifice  valuable to us  personally  ...
 
 here it is  KJV Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. 
 
ESV Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, "See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you."
 
 N LTJhn 5:14 But afterward Jesus found him in the Temple and told him, "Now you are well; so stop sinning, or something even worse may happen to you." 
 
 

Offline Tony N

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Re: Unforgiveable Sin
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2008, 04:02:00 AM »
rosered, don't you think Christ was asking the person to do the impossible? How could the man really "sin no more" since he is made a sinner (see Romans 5:19)? He must wait the day when he is made righteous (Romans 5:19) and then he truly will sin no more.

It is kind of like when God gave them the law and had them covenant with Him that they would do it all. He knew full well that they not only would not but could not keep the law. Yet He covenanted with them anyway. It is a good learning experience meant to lead them to Christ.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.