Author Topic: How Much Do We Not Know?  (Read 7742 times)

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Offline micah7:9

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Re: How Much Do We Not Know?
« Reply #100 on: September 23, 2011, 09:58:22 AM »
Is there anything in the Bible that says anything of what Weise said about hell? I mean Daniel was given a vision and that vision became so. I don't see any comparison at all. :laughing7:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How Much Do We Not Know?
« Reply #101 on: September 23, 2011, 10:04:33 AM »
Quote
Daniel was given a vision and that vision became so
That's the whole point Micah... It became so centuries later. But Daniel was believed before those centuries ended. Daniel was right all along but the proof of that was centuries later.
Quote
I don't see any comparison at all
I hope you see now because the comparision is extremely correct imo.  :laughing7:

The things about most prophets is that they do say things that are NOT in the Bible. Nothing Daniel said was in the Bible. It was added after he said it....
A prophet that repeats things that are already known is no prophet.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline micah7:9

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Re: How Much Do We Not Know?
« Reply #102 on: September 23, 2011, 10:13:34 AM »
Quote
Daniel was given a vision and that vision became so
That's the whole point Micah... It became so centuries later. But Daniel was believed before those centuries ended. Daniel was right all along but the proof of that was centuries later.
Quote
I don't see any comparison at all
I hope you see now because the comparision is extremely correct imo.  :laughing7:

Daniel was in the will of God and God gave him the visions. There is no comparison at all.

People, regular people who have not been living by faith and believing in Jehovah; but have lived with what men have conjured up to entertain and paint the imaginations in man and his thinking and reasoning. God gave a man(Daniel) of God a vision for all, yes in the future. From what I have read, heard, and seen about NDE's is they offer only what we, man has invisioned or imagined about the things they report.
WW I just dont accept the NDE, so I am disqualifing myself.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Lindy

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Re: How Much Do We Not Know?
« Reply #103 on: September 23, 2011, 10:21:36 AM »
I'm not saying Daniel had no faith etc. My point is how did his neighbors knew?
There is no difference between Daniel and Bill Wiese. Both are normal looking men. Both claim to be honest. Both claim to believe. Etc etc.
But still "everyone" says Daniel can be trusted for a full 100%. Not so for Bill Wiesse.

Quote
I contend there is a great deal of difference.
I'm not saying that's wrong but how do you "measure" that? Color of his eyes? Shoe size? Or....???
Remember that Jesus was rejected by many people in His time. No idea about the exact numbers but Jesus was rejected by 75% of the people. Bill Wiesse is rejected by 75% of the people.
No I'm not saying Bill equals Jesus I'm just saying people always have an opinion about everyone but very often they are wrong. 75% was wrong about Jesus. Very likely 75% was wrong about Daniel. 100% minus 7 people where wrong about Noach.
Well you get the point.
I hope  :laughing7:

just some observations, feel free to disagree...

Daniel had already established himself as trustworthy, via dream interpretations that proved correct. In addition, lifestyle.

As I consider the OT prophets, and even those who preached and taught and wrote the NT via their letters, there is, if we are honest, a HUGE difference between them and us.

That difference is, from my pov, total and absolute near fanaticism for God. They were truly set apart, truly different, they ate slept breathed God 24/7.

In comparison, again if we are truly honest. extremely few of us do that. We are raising kids, working jobs, watching the news, posting on forums, watching youtube videos, and when we remember to do so, we pray and read the Bible almost as an afterthought.

They buried themselves in God, the scriptures, in prayer and fellowship and service. And they did so not in a negative fanatic way, but with love. It wasn't legalistic the way they did this, it wasn't puffed up like the Pharisees and such. Their hunger for God was so intense that nothing less than full communion with Him would satisfy. And I believe God honored that.

We in our day are truly spoiled more than we know. We think we are persecuted if someone disagrees with our pov on a scripture verse, or dares to oppose having the ten commandments posted in a court house, or have an atheist ridicule us.

This isn't to say we don't love God, or that we aren't believers. But the cares of this world have truly entwined in our lives like thorny vines, and choke off the flow of the Holy Spirit.  We expect God to meet us where WE choose, at OUR convenience, don't interfere with our plans for the day, and then are frustrated when we don't experience that fullness the OT prophets and NT apostles did.

A lifetime of full commitment done in love not out of pride or arrogance is a major requirement, I think, towards reaching that level of fullness in God. It is a height I would love to reach but like everyone else, I, too, struggle with the demands of raising kids and working. Doesn't mean God won't share a taste of that with us, but it does mean that we have to be honest and extra careful in testing what comes to be sure it lines up with scripture and is not born of our own thoughts that have not been anywhere near as disciplined as those of old.

just my thoughts on it.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How Much Do We Not Know?
« Reply #104 on: September 23, 2011, 11:00:39 AM »
Daniel was in the will of God and God gave him the visions. There is no comparison at all.
Is it really so hard to understand? :sigh:
Being in the will of God is an irrelvant argument. You can't see that from the outside. Have you ever seen an NDE that started with saying "the following is just a lie". All NDEs (I've read) are from people who claim to be honest. Many say that God/Jesus commanded them to tell people about their experience. I would say such people are "in the will of God".
Quote
God gave a man(Daniel) of God a vision for all, yes in the future. From what I have read, heard, and seen about NDE's is they offer only what we, man has invisioned or imagined about the things they report.
Many NDEs don't contradict the Bible. New teachings are not false or true by defenition. If they contradict the Bible they are clearly false. Those that don't contradict or are 100% in agreement with the Bible are not always true.
Quote
WW I just dont accept the NDE, so I am disqualifing myself.
I don't say you have to. It's just a hypothetical question. But I have my answer. You don't have a clue on what basis to accept or reject. That's fine with me. I think that's so for most/all people including myself.
That's also the reason you see me often questioning those "It's all spiritual" posts without a single verse to back it up.
For me such views are at the same level as NDEs. Unverified. Therefore could be right or could be nothing but a fantasy.
 :bgdance:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: How Much Do We Not Know?
« Reply #105 on: September 23, 2011, 03:10:21 PM »
 we all know there are false prophets and lying visions.   We have to test these spirits if they are of God? I test them if they are in accord with

  God's nature,love,justice,righteousness,mercy,compassion and power. Restoration...was the vision in line with God's express will of restoring?

  of  the casting down of satan? of the free gift? of the eternal kingdom? the salvation of man?

   Ezekiel 14...when any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a 'wicked stumbling block" before his face..and then goes to a prophet. I myself will answer

  him in keeping with his great folly. I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel,who have all deserted me for their idols...

   Ezekiel 13   False prophets condemned........'Your prophets,O'Israel are like jackals mong ruins. YOU have not gone up to the breaks in the wall

  to repair it for the house of Israel so that it will stand firm in the battle on the day of the Lord.


   Relationship and spirit....but look!   Balaam.... managed to even speaktruth according to the will of God..when it came to the deliverance of Israel

  into the promises.However seeing this...he counseled the adversary how to make them fall through disfavour.


    I received the kn!owledge of the salvation of all through a dream vision....when I was mourning over the coming judgement upon the entire world!

   Having seen the entire inhabited earth overcome of the prince of this world....I had  gone in prayer to God and petitioned for all their lives and mercy....

   an earthquake happened.    Then two angels were sent to me in the night...and comforted me in my mourning.   they said",man is not responsible

  for sin"...later I found the scripture...'for the creature was subjected to vanity,not of it's own will,but by Him who subjected it,in order to set

  the whole creation free into the glorious freedom of the sons of God" and that God had taken the condemnation of the law against us and nailed it

  to the cross, in Jesus Christ...and was not holding sin against men...and they were to receive the free gift of eternal life.

     THIS MUCH I KNOW IN THE SPIRIT

   and I find myself at odds at times,with those who preach the divine  plan of the ages...and the LOF to man for a while....and I have received nothing from

   Him on that in the spirit


   

   

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How Much Do We Not Know?
« Reply #106 on: September 23, 2011, 03:51:35 PM »
we all know there are false prophets and lying visions.
Sure. The true prophets are vastly outnumbered.

Quote
We have to test these spirits if they are of God?
I fully agree with that. And the only way to test that is with Scripture imo.
I could for example verifiy your views against those of Cardinal. Both of you are honest spiritally inclined ladies. I have zero doubt about that. But you are not at Holy Spirit level as the Bible is. Most on this forum live 10000+ miles away from me. Basicly you+ are just words and smilies on a forum.
Same goes for anything I ever wrote ofcourse.

Quote
I test them if they are in accord with God's nature,love,justice,righteousness,mercy,compassion and power.
Fully agreed but there the problems begin. Views on that compassion vary widely between ETs and URs. Even between the people on this forum. To a much lesser extend of course.


Quote
Restoration...was the vision in line with God's express will of restoring?
Again agreed. Partly. Although I keep nagging about Scriptures I have thought that complicates things. I tried to explain it to Micah but it seem not to come across very well.
Over time God has selected a number of people who spoke for Him. They often thaught new things. A good example is the Book of Leviticus many new laws that were not written down before. So that was a prophet that said things that couldn't be verified (at that time)
Now assume you are the next great prophetess of God. Just like Leviticus you speak 100% true but unverifyable things.
But how should I know you are a prophetess of light or darkness? Assuming nothing you say contradicts the Bible. It just adds to the Scripture like happend over the previous millenia.

Quote
I received the kn!owledge of the salvation of all through a dream vision....
On this forum that will earn you a lotta hugs because people trust you. On an ET forum you will be banned for blasphemy.... That's my whole point
 :boyheart:
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 05:13:02 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: How Much Do We Not Know?
« Reply #107 on: September 23, 2011, 04:41:26 PM »
 :thumbsup:     but all any can do is testify..whether beleived,rejected or contemplated......eventually it will show up as straw,wood,stubble

  gold,silver.   I never say..waiting on the Lord does not have it's reward.  There is nothing wrong with saying, "I DON'T KNOW" :dontknow: there will

   come a day...when no longer will any say,'know God" for all will know Him..when I forgive all their sin"   All your children shall be taught

   of the Lord...... :bgdance:

     I love the scriptures too.... a prophesy about the coming famine [Acts 11;28] Agabus stood up and through the spirit predicted a severe

  famine would spread over thee entire Roman world[this happened during the reign of Claudius]this was testified in the sign givenof Christ for

  the conclusion of the law covenant age.  And know we are at the end of the times of Gentiles age. time of return..and harvest of the earth

.and the beginning of all in All/immortality age...and the sign applies again.   Time[law covenant],times[gentiles] half a time[hour of trial preceded by silence in heaven

  for a half hour]    the signs of the times are upon us..

Offline Molly

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Re: How Much Do We Not Know?
« Reply #108 on: September 23, 2011, 08:09:36 PM »
Sheila, what is the silence in heaven all about?  If you know...


ww, I'm thinking our Bible is complete with respect to the ages covered by it.

But we will see something new revealed as the next age begins.

Maybe these NDE's are a type of harbinger.

What do you think of them yourself?

Offline sheila

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Re: How Much Do We Not Know?
« Reply #109 on: September 23, 2011, 10:50:23 PM »
 the silence  was in Heaven...and a period of no angelic spiritual messages declared to the people. This preceded the 7 angelic trumpet blasts....it correlates

  with the time Noah and all with him shut the door of the ark.   A day for a year=approx  one week for Noah in ark before rain began...= @half hour

  in a day....just like the days of Noah Genesis 7;10

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: How Much Do We Not Know?
« Reply #110 on: September 28, 2011, 06:33:45 PM »
Molly I gave my view in post #7 but reading post #22 is was only understood half.

My view is that the Bible is far from complete. The ancient Jews had much much more knowledge of things as found in the OT. I think not all things revealed to them are in the OT.
I believe the literal things are a pattern of the spiritual/heavenly things. Meaning we know almost nothing about heaven.


Quote
Maybe these NDE's are a type of harbinger.

What do you think of them yourself?
See my last reply to Sheila.
People who reject NDEs must also reject the majority of the "it's spiritual" post on this forum as lies from the devil....
If NDEs are lies of the devil. Due to drugs abuse. Just a way to make money etc the conclusion is simple. It's all fake.
As far as I'm concerned that's not limited to full blown NDEs but also "HS thaught me" type of stuff.

NDEs come in various "formats".
a] Feeling of happiness and warmth. Nothing more.
b] A voice tells the person something.
c] Full blown NDE in which people see and hear things.

Besides the "dead component" b and c it's how God seems to communicate with His phropets.
Voice from a burning bush. 7 fat and 7 thin cows. And a massive vision called Revelation.

Jews have grouped their OT books in section. The relevant ones are Major and Minor Prophets.
Does it anywhere in the NT say that the times of God's interaction with people is over?
What if the NDE people are, let's call them, Tiny Prophets?
Would that be an unbiblical thought?
I even posted medical proof of NDEs.

If one accepts the visions in the Bible then that for me automatically means NDEs can't be ruled out.

The Bible tells us about true and false prophets/religions/ways/etc.
That can be easily extrapolated to:
- True/false NDEs.
- True/false "HS told me".
- True/false "It's spiritual".

Believing in NDEs is the "easy" step. The real challange is diffrenciating the wheat from the chaff.
Every view that contradics (or requires to ignore) verses is chaff.
NDEs that align with Scripture can be true. It wouldn't be that hard for me to give you a Biblically sound and detailed description of the vision I never had....
NDEs that don't contradict Scripture but can't be really verified either.

So NDEs come in two categories. Proven false and possibly true.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline shawn

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Re: How Much Do We Not Know?
« Reply #111 on: September 28, 2011, 06:41:21 PM »
I'm not saying Daniel had no faith etc. My point is how did his neighbors knew?
There is no difference between Daniel and Bill Wiese. Both are normal looking men. Both claim to be honest. Both claim to believe. Etc etc.
But still "everyone" says Daniel can be trusted for a full 100%. Not so for Bill Wiesse.

Quote
I contend there is a great deal of difference.
I'm not saying that's wrong but how do you "measure" that? Color of his eyes? Shoe size? Or....???
Remember that Jesus was rejected by many people in His time. No idea about the exact numbers but Jesus was rejected by 75% of the people. Bill Wiesse is rejected by 75% of the people.
No I'm not saying Bill equals Jesus I'm just saying people always have an opinion about everyone but very often they are wrong. 75% was wrong about Jesus. Very likely 75% was wrong about Daniel. 100% minus 7 people where wrong about Noach.
Well you get the point.
I hope  :laughing7:

just some observations, feel free to disagree...

Daniel had already established himself as trustworthy, via dream interpretations that proved correct. In addition, lifestyle.

As I consider the OT prophets, and even those who preached and taught and wrote the NT via their letters, there is, if we are honest, a HUGE difference between them and us.

That difference is, from my pov, total and absolute near fanaticism for God. They were truly set apart, truly different, they ate slept breathed God 24/7.

In comparison, again if we are truly honest. extremely few of us do that. We are raising kids, working jobs, watching the news, posting on forums, watching youtube videos, and when we remember to do so, we pray and read the Bible almost as an afterthought.

They buried themselves in God, the scriptures, in prayer and fellowship and service. And they did so not in a negative fanatic way, but with love. It wasn't legalistic the way they did this, it wasn't puffed up like the Pharisees and such. Their hunger for God was so intense that nothing less than full communion with Him would satisfy. And I believe God honored that.

We in our day are truly spoiled more than we know. We think we are persecuted if someone disagrees with our pov on a scripture verse, or dares to oppose having the ten commandments posted in a court house, or have an atheist ridicule us.

This isn't to say we don't love God, or that we aren't believers. But the cares of this world have truly entwined in our lives like thorny vines, and choke off the flow of the Holy Spirit.  We expect God to meet us where WE choose, at OUR convenience, don't interfere with our plans for the day, and then are frustrated when we don't experience that fullness the OT prophets and NT apostles did.

A lifetime of full commitment done in love not out of pride or arrogance is a major requirement, I think, towards reaching that level of fullness in God. It is a height I would love to reach but like everyone else, I, too, struggle with the demands of raising kids and working. Doesn't mean God won't share a taste of that with us, but it does mean that we have to be honest and extra careful in testing what comes to be sure it lines up with scripture and is not born of our own thoughts that have not been anywhere near as disciplined as those of old.

just my thoughts on it.

I think this is a terrific post.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: How Much Do We Not Know?
« Reply #112 on: September 28, 2011, 07:43:39 PM »
I think so too.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Nathan

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Re: How Much Do We Not Know?
« Reply #113 on: September 28, 2011, 10:23:42 PM »
This is one of those times when you get ready to post and you know you want to say "something" but you don't know what because even though you've read the thread through, it's tough to pin down a specific point or thought.  WW, you have many posts throughout this thread and several times you've referred to those who see everything as "spiritual" and yet because they have no Scriptural passages that are enough evidence for you, you kinda imply that their (my) pov isn't relevant. 

Seeing as much conversation has been between you and Sheila, who is also very spiritual in her perceptions as well as the mentioning of Cardinal . .Taffy would have been another but he's kinda backed out for a while as well.  But "because" EVERYTHING for me really is to be seen spiritual, comments that give reference to the idea that seeing things spiritually isn't really an answer to many of the questions presented always grabs my attention. 

I remember commenting on a conversation recently that Molly was involved with in trying to explain things she'd been seeing yet others were questioning the validity of them and it ties in with much of what's been discussed here in that I get the feeling that most would rather wrestle with their logic than consider that perhaps everything really "is" meant to be understood on another dimension beyond logic and reasoning.

WW, you stated
My view is that the Bible is far from complete. The ancient Jews had much much more knowledge of things as found in the OT. I think not all things revealed to them are in the OT.
I believe the literal things are a pattern of the spiritual/heavenly things. Meaning we know almost nothing about heaven.


I whole-heartedly believe that everything literally written is a pattern of the spiritual realm of things.  But where you say it means we know nothing of the spiritual realm, I say, through those patterns, we can "see" the spiritual principles.  But the spiritual side of it isn't based on the same principles as the natural side of it.  Natural is based on information and knowledge, whereas spiritual is based on relationship.

It was Peter's relationship with Jesus that enabled him to receive a revelation from God of who Jesus was.

Matthew 16
3When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
 14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
 16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
 18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Let's play with this a bit, shall we?

When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
 14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.


For me, this is so similar to many of the conversations that take place on the thousands of forums much like this one on any given day.  People love to express their opinions of who they think Jesus is to them.  There are as many opinions as there are minds that embrace them.  Everyone has an opinion.  Some see Jesus with a message of repentance or else, others see him with great power and drama, others see him as a man of great passion .. . but the whole mood changes when Jesus then poses a more personal question . . .who do "you" say that I am.

I've stated all along, and it's also why I "don't" make sure I always post a Scripture and verse with my comments.  It's not about adopting the opinion of what someone else stated, even if that means it's a Scripture verse.  Jesus isn't asking Peter how well he knows the text, he's asking him to tell him "in his own words, from his own heart" who does "he" see Jesus to be.  Peter's answer was not one based on all of his efforts of studying what everyone else said about Jesus.  Peter's answer was a personal revelation that came from inside him, inside his spirit, not his head.  If anything, what came out of his mouth was a birthing of a seed that had already been planted in his mind, a life-seed and Jesus was the midwife that ushered the birthing into personal comprehension.

Notice Jesus didn't change the name of all the disciples, this wasn't something they'd all decided was a good answer, this was a PERSONAL experience that Peter had and because of it, Jesus marked the moment by changing Peter's name, which was a reflection of the inward change of how communication with Peter would be in the days ahead.  Jesus was no longer laying line upon line with him, precept upon precept.  Peter became a Dad that day, he birthed a revelation of Jesus.

And for Peter, the rest of the disciples, and all who read this passage, Jesus immediately explained what just happened.  Jesus was defining the difference between knowledge and revelation.

6And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


In recent conversations, I've frustrated some by my emphasis about everything being spiritual.  But "this" is why.  Spiritual truth does not come by way of flesh and blood, by way of natural rationale.  The natural is exactly as you said WW.  The natural is God's alphabet.  It's what he writes with to "lead us" into a deeper relationship.  People who have seen the natural splendors this realm and world has to offer, often walk away with a more profound realization of God's presence.  That happens because the natural leads us into the depths of spiritual truth.  It is not "the" depths of spiritual truth, it only "leads" us there.  It is only through our relationship that those signs come alive and we can read the language on a spiritual plain now instead of embracing the natural patterns and signs.

The signs and patterns are relevant, but they are not the emphasis, nor are they the foundation.  They are merely the tools used to get us into the places where our relationship with God can become God's avenue of communication.  "We" communicate with words.  God communicates with relationships.  It's a spiritual DNA thing.  His nature, his truth, his power and splendor is in us without our minds being required to identify, comprehend, activate and operate in those truths.  Anymore than I have to consciously decide I'm going to have the same mannerisms, and characteristics as my Mom and Dad. 

Much of the discussions "about" things of God are in comparison to how we would go about taking blood samples of our parents and scientifically breaking them down microscopically and identifying each characteristic found in the blood.  in the end, it's intriguing at best, but does it bring us any closer to our parents?

Seeing Scripture as an inward picture of "man" reveals to me why I am the way I am.  It's not about me trying to dissect the nature of God, it's about God revealing my own nature to "me".  That's why the serpent is a PATTERN of how carnality in my mind operates.  There is an inner conscience . . .it's at odds with the serpent nature . . .that's the enmity placed there by God.  Eve is my soul and it hears the conscience, but it's also deceived by the carnality that influences my conscience.  Spirit is never deceived, but it "can" be bound and buried should "I" which is the culmination of the body, soul and spirit that makes up the "me", choose to give in to the carnal nature, the devil, the satan, the serpent "in" me. 

And "that's" where the resurrection of Christ comes in.  What's being resurrected is my "spirit" is once again being realigned and repositioned to it's original place "in" me.  I once was dead, but now I'm alive.  That's why Jesus could say "let the dead bury the dead".  But we can't get caught up in trying to make that fit literally . . .just like being born again . .that was also argued against by the religious leaders who tried to take that literally as well.  Nothing fits when you try to view spiritual things as literal events.  That goes double for the book of Revelation.

It's not a book called "revelation".  It's a REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST.  And we've already established who it is that can receive a revelation, right?  Only those who are "in" a relationship with God.  Not in a religion, not in a doctrine or philosophy, but in a "relationship".  that's why that book is one of the most misunderstood and misinterpreted books in the entire Bible.  It's a revelation of Jesus . . .same as what Peter just received.  But it's not supposed to be given to just anyone.  and there lies the problem.  People without the relationship have interpreted to be something it's not.

Which ties in with this revelation that Jesus just had with Peter.

20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ

This is not a revelation for "man" . . .it's a revelation for the SPIRIT that is "in" man.

So . . .I'll say it again . . .everything . . .EVERYTHING is spiritual.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: How Much Do We Not Know?
« Reply #114 on: October 01, 2011, 04:47:06 AM »
Molly I gave my view in post #7 but reading post #22 is was only understood half.

My view is that the Bible is far from complete. The ancient Jews had much much more knowledge of things as found in the OT. I think not all things revealed to them are in the OT.
I believe the literal things are a pattern of the spiritual/heavenly things. Meaning we know almost nothing about heaven.


Quote
Maybe these NDE's are a type of harbinger.

What do you think of them yourself?
See my last reply to Sheila.
People who reject NDEs must also reject the majority of the "it's spiritual" post on this forum as lies from the devil....
If NDEs are lies of the devil. Due to drugs abuse. Just a way to make money etc the conclusion is simple. It's all fake.
As far as I'm concerned that's not limited to full blown NDEs but also "HS thaught me" type of stuff.

NDEs come in various "formats".
a] Feeling of happiness and warmth. Nothing more.
b] A voice tells the person something.
c] Full blown NDE in which people see and hear things.

Besides the "dead component" b and c it's how God seems to communicate with His phropets.
Voice from a burning bush. 7 fat and 7 thin cows. And a massive vision called Revelation.

Jews have grouped their OT books in section. The relevant ones are Major and Minor Prophets.
Does it anywhere in the NT say that the times of God's interaction with people is over?
What if the NDE people are, let's call them, Tiny Prophets?
Would that be an unbiblical thought?
I even posted medical proof of NDEs.

If one accepts the visions in the Bible then that for me automatically means NDEs can't be ruled out.

The Bible tells us about true and false prophets/religions/ways/etc.
That can be easily extrapolated to:
- True/false NDEs.
- True/false "HS told me".
- True/false "It's spiritual".

Believing in NDEs is the "easy" step. The real challange is diffrenciating the wheat from the chaff.
Every view that contradics (or requires to ignore) verses is chaff.
NDEs that align with Scripture can be true. It wouldn't be that hard for me to give you a Biblically sound and detailed description of the vision I never had....
NDEs that don't contradict Scripture but can't be really verified either.

So NDEs come in two categories. Proven false and possibly true.

sometimes NDEs seem to contradict scripture because we don't fully understand the scripture. sometimes NDEs seem to confirm scripture because we don't fully understand scripture. Sometimes we need to be sifted, before we understand much of anything.

Peter. Satan has desired to sift you like wheat, but don't worry, I ve prayed for you. :o)
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com