Author Topic: The Hell Thread  (Read 15934 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2009, 07:33:04 AM »
Legoman,

You are right about Gehenna. And IMO partly right about Tartarus.
Indeed Tartarus is translated as hell; but it's never linked to the faith of humans. Only the most wicked of the angels. Not that is really matters (in this discussion).

Quote
Either we do it now in this life (judged in this life), or do it later in the lake of fire (judged in the lake of fire).  One way or another we are judged into righteousness (Isaiah 26:9).
So LoF is an afterlife version of Gehenna? If your answer is yes then I don't understand how.
When I read about LoF I see it as sort of punishment but mostly a way to come to spiritual understanding.
So LoF has a teaching effect. Something I can't say of Gehenna. People cast in Gehenna usally got killed/executed. The majority of them died in a state hate. So I see no teaching.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 05:42:11 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2009, 04:17:36 PM »
Hi WW,

Yeah I haven't studied tartarus too much, I just know its used only in one verse.

This is how I see Gehenna.  Gehenna, the literal place, was a burning garbage dump, where the city threw its trash, and they burned up the bodies of criminals.  Whether the criminals were dead or alive when they were thrown in there, I'm not sure.  So it was a place to burn up the refuse, the stuff they didn't want.  It was for purging.

Jesus said it would be better if we should cast off our our offending limb or eye, instead of throwing our whole body into Gehenna fire.  Now of course Jesus was not talking about the literal valley of Gehenna, but only using it as a symbol.  A symbol for throwing away the stuff we don't want - for purging.

What did Jesus mean when he said we should cut off our hand or cut out our eye?  He is talking spiritually here - His words are spirit.  Say we have a lustful eye that likes to look at pretty women (not that far of a stretch!) - how should we deal with this sinful nature?  Cut it out!  The physical eye is not the problem - the problem is the "spiritual eye" in our heart.  Spiritually, remove the eye so we don't do that behavior anymore.

This is really talking about being judged right now in this life.  Part of what this life is about is purging the spiritual limbs that cause us to sin - we can get rid of them by judging ourselves now and with God's help we will be free from sin.  Eventually we won't do the sinful behavior if we learn how not to.  This is the learning process of Gehenna - and ultimately it won't happen for you unless God wills it.  The learning process is the purging effect that the literal Gehenna did, which is analogous to the purging we must do in our own life.

So Jesus is saying its better if we learn ourself now, rather than later in the Lake of Fire.  But either way, our sinful behavior is going to be cut out - a little bit at a time in this life - or all at once in the Lake of fire.  Perhaps it is a bit gentler to see our flaws slowly in this life, rather than have them all exposed at once in the lake of fire.  I'm not really sure.

What is the lake of fire?  IMHO it is composed of God and the body of believers who will be the chosen elect.  They will be the judges and priests that will help save the mass of unbelievers. 

JMHO, and myself, I still have a long way to go before I am done with my spiritual gehenna...


Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2009, 05:48:56 PM »
Ok, a spiritual Gehenna.
I assume that it takes place right here, right now.
Because AFAIK the only afterlife 'fire' is LoF.

Quote
So Jesus is saying its better if we learn ourself now, rather than later in the Lake of Fire.  But either way, our sinful behavior is going to be cut out - a little bit at a time in this life - or all at once in the Lake of fire.  Perhaps it is a bit gentler to see our flaws slowly in this life, rather than have them all exposed at once in the lake of fire.  I'm not really sure.
I'm sure you are not far from the truth because Jesus repeatinly warned for severe afterlife judgement.
So I bet it won't be a process that takes a nano second.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2009, 06:21:36 PM »
Legoman -

Your post makes a lot of sense to me.  The New Testament scriptures urge us to purify ourselves as He is pure.  The time we have in this world can be used wisely... to cut off those sinful limbs and pluck out those sinful eyes, etc... so that when it comes our time to pass out of the natural world, we are not hurt by the 2nd death which is the Lake of Fire.  There is a scripture that says, "Who shall dwell with the devouring fire....?"  and another that says "Our God is a consuming fire".   Also, "Flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of God"....  I deduce that our ultimate destiny is to be reunited with God completely and there are many spiritual things which will be burned up in His presence.  I think while in this body of flesh, we are not able to truly see the brightness of God's glory for all that it is.  It all sounds very serious and scary, and perhaps in that sense, we should have more godly fear.   Even many devout people have become rather cavalier about spiritual purity (myself included) because this world is constantly tugging on us to become comfortable with our present circumstances.   I will grant you that I'm just thinking out loud.  I don't know exactly what it is like to 'leave this body'.  Some think of it more as a deliverance from suffering - a more heavenly experience in which we are bathed in the light of love.   I suppose we will all find out soon enough.

Peace -
Anne
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NinjaWizards777

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2009, 08:57:16 AM »
the concept of Hell is still really confusing to me. Because were talking about gehenna, sheol, tartarus, hades (and for the ET person "death")....all these different terms described as one word...Hell. but as gary amiralts poem is titled "what the hell is hell?"

is sheol a place, a "hell" where people go for a time...the dead? to be cast into the lake of fire for purification?

is "hell" in all its essence merely a state of mind here on earth as ive heard it described many times?

blah...im tired. more tomorrow

Offline sven

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2009, 03:23:25 PM »
I see it this way:

Sheol/Hades, the realm of souls both good and evil (I'm convinced of soulsleep)
Gehenna, the valley of Hinnom, symbolic threat of a shamefull death
Tartarus (also Abyssos), prison of angelic beings
the lake of fire = second death, here ones can speculate what second death is

Offline marie glen

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2011, 11:07:22 PM »
Psalm 21:8, 9 - "Your hand will find out all your enemies; your right hand will find out all who hate you. You will make them as a fiery furnace when-you-appear. The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath, and fire will consume them."

God does not appear until after the second resurrection and judgment day is over.

Where does it say the Book of Life is closed to the adding of any more names before the second resurrection, and closed all during the long 'day' of judgment (the long day of the examination of all things when "all the books will be opened" and "not one thing shall remain hidden that shall not be uncovered")?

The LORD's appearing - Revelation 21:1-5. The above reference is from the New Revised Standard Version, but the Young's Literal is interesting too..
 
YLT - Psalm 21:8,9 - "Thy hand cometh to all Thine enemies, Thy right hand doth find Thy haters. Thou makest them as a furnace of fire, At the time of Thy presence. Jehovah in His anger doth swallow them, And fire doth devour them."

 --- Anyone not born again at His (Jehovah/YHWH/ the LORD's)  appearing will be consumed "our God is a consuming fire" -  it's His substance.. But! His appearing is not until after the second resurrection and day of judgment.

YLT - Revelation 21

 1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more;

 2and I, John, saw the holy city -- new Jerusalem -- coming down from God out of the heaven, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband;

 3and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, `Lo, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them -- their God,

 4and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, because the first things did go away.'

 5And He who is sitting upon the throne said, `Lo, new I make all things; and He saith to me, `Write, because these words are true and stedfast;' 
- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection) will be weeping and wailing? Holy Days - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles prophecy the three peaks of His long 2nd advent? Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
``````````````````````````````````````````````````
- "...aLL things new" Rev21:5 "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1 - Is 11:7 Micah 4:4 Is 30:25
http://www.bubblews.com/news/9080033 -revelation told in rhyme - 45 days

Offline lostnbroken

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #57 on: October 15, 2014, 01:34:49 AM »
getting past other issues, eh hem, i have found something of scripture that is making me wonder about "hell" and these nde's that people have where they go to hell and see people burning in the center of the earth..people say it is volcanic lava which contains sulphur in it...

Deuteronomy 32: 22-26:

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Sheol), and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, THE SUCKLING ALSO with the man of gray hairs. I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:


under mountains[volcanoes???] and ref. to deepest sheol [hell]...how is this interpreted in cus????? et people think this is where the lof of fire is.... i tend to believe it is spiritual as has been "proven" by spiritual interpretation and that it has to do with cleansing...but if people in this lake of fire are in the center of the earth[only god and angels could be there] then those in the kingdom would not even see them there....out of sight and out of mind so to speak...can you help me with this???? i am wanting to share cus with others too....
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 01:38:38 AM by lostnbroken »

Offline eaglesway

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #58 on: October 15, 2014, 02:13:18 AM »
Notice the words, "Burnt with hunger". I believe, if you look at the context of the chapter, you will see God is speaking through Moses prophetically about the unfaithfulness of His people Israel. The are references, expressed poetically and prophetically, about the judgment He would bring upon them for worshipping false Gods- which included abominations that would cause them to incur His wrath.Yet, if you look at Hosea, and Jeremiah, and many other similar places where the Lord speaks of judgment upon Israel for their unfaithfulness- God follows with promises of restoration and mercy.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Online Tom

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #59 on: October 15, 2014, 02:23:25 AM »
getting past other issues, eh hem, i have found something of scripture that is making me wonder about "hell" and these nde's that people have where they go to hell and see people burning in the center of the earth..people say it is volcanic lava which contains sulphur in it...

Deuteronomy 32: 22-26:

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Sheol), and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, THE SUCKLING ALSO with the man of gray hairs. I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:


under mountains[volcanoes???] and ref. to deepest sheol [hell]...how is this interpreted in cus????? et people think this is where the lof of fire is.... i tend to believe it is spiritual as has been "proven" by spiritual interpretation and that it has to do with cleansing...but if people in this lake of fire are in the center of the earth[only god and angels could be there] then those in the kingdom would not even see them there....out of sight and out of mind so to speak...can you help me with this???? i am wanting to share cus with others too....

Mystical experiences are perceived differently in different cultures, and I think that is why some folks who have been taught that "hell" is torture in fire have these very negative experiences. Most NDE/OBE folks seem to share the common vision of the peaceful loving light and come back from it not fearing death and believing God is love.

Offline Seth

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #60 on: October 15, 2014, 02:47:17 AM »
getting past other issues, eh hem, i have found something of scripture that is making me wonder about "hell" and these nde's that people have where they go to hell and see people burning in the center of the earth..people say it is volcanic lava which contains sulphur in it...

Deuteronomy 32: 22-26:

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Sheol), and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, THE SUCKLING ALSO with the man of gray hairs. I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:


under mountains[volcanoes???] and ref. to deepest sheol [hell]...how is this interpreted in cus????? et people think this is where the lof of fire is.... i tend to believe it is spiritual as has been "proven" by spiritual interpretation and that it has to do with cleansing...but if people in this lake of fire are in the center of the earth[only god and angels could be there] then those in the kingdom would not even see them there....out of sight and out of mind so to speak...can you help me with this???? i am wanting to share cus with others too....

Just to add a bit to what Eaglesway's said, fire can be understood as a symbol for God's judgment, which I think is a great symbol because fire  tends to to REDUCE the size of what it consumes, which to me speaks of humbling. In the book of Peter we are told that the early church was experiencing fiery trials of their faith by those who were persecuting them and in that sense, God was using that to humble the church and bring forth the character of Christ.

In the case of the scripture you quoted, what I see is an association of sheol (death/grave) as being a judgment of God through he application of the fire image with it. That association, to me, shows how God uses death as a judgment upon those who are disobedient, both physical death at times, and at other times the metaphysical death of death in sin (prodigal son).


Online Tom

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #61 on: October 15, 2014, 02:54:09 AM »
I think the same can be said about the "fire eonian."

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

Offline lostnbroken

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #62 on: October 15, 2014, 02:55:09 AM »
this helps...so for those who think the literal "hell" or literal lake of fire  being the center of the earth/lava, are just again translating it by their "carnal" understanding and not spiritual...god is spirit and he does everything like-wise...i am ever being convinced he would not send people to such a place as this and it is because he loves everyone, even those he would say are his enemies[love your enemies as he does] when i can see him in this light and not as a vengeful being who only wants to cause harm to others , i feel even more love for him...he truly loves ALL   :HeartThrob:

Offline Seth

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #63 on: October 15, 2014, 03:00:15 AM »
this helps...so for those who think the literal "hell" or literal lake of fire  being the center of the earth/lava, are just again translating it by their "carnal" understanding and not spiritual...god is spirit and he does everything like-wise...i am ever being convinced he would not send people to such a place as this and it is because he loves everyone, even those he would say are his enemies[love your enemies as he does] when i can see him in this light and not as a vengeful being who only wants to cause harm to others , i feel even more love for him...he truly loves ALL   :HeartThrob:

I believe so. Paul said that to know the things of God we need spiritual discernment, to compare spiritual to spiritual. With the hellfire teaching, we have a comparison of spiritual to carnal. Most of us, in fact I think all of us currently here at tentmaker forum have journeyed to a place of seeing the spiritual in the fire of God as spoken through prophecies, parables, and visions. It doesn't mean that we all see it the same way, but we do see that Jesus really would not burn people will literal fire. I am not even sure how that would be done, given that they believe the body stays in the ground when people go to hell. Go figure.  :dontknow:

Online Tom

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #64 on: October 15, 2014, 03:02:28 AM »
this helps...so for those who think the literal "hell" or literal lake of fire  being the center of the earth/lava, are just again translating it by their "carnal" understanding and not spiritual...god is spirit and he does everything like-wise...i am ever being convinced he would not send people to such a place as this and it is because he loves everyone, even those he would say are his enemies[love your enemies as he does] when i can see him in this light and not as a vengeful being who only wants to cause harm to others , i feel even more love for him...he truly loves ALL   :HeartThrob:

Amen, sister.

Offline Seth

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #65 on: October 15, 2014, 03:07:38 AM »
Btw, you may also come across the symbol of God standing on their ashes. Some folks take that to mean annihilationism. To be under Gods feet means to be placed under his rule and authority. He stands above us, meaning we are under his kingship. The fire of God as judgment, in one way or another, brings pride down to size (ashes). God stands on their ashes showing that the humble have been brought to a place of being under the kingship of Christ. By repenting and turning to Christ shows that he is standing on our ashes. That's how I view that.

1 Cor 15, talks about God will bring everything and everyone under his feet so that God will be all in all. It speaks to Jesus eliminating all rule and authority, then he stands above them. It's a good thing. Not a bad thing,

Online Tom

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #66 on: October 15, 2014, 03:15:34 AM »
Amen. All will be justified, reconciled, vivified, and subjected when God is all in all.

Offline Seth

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #67 on: October 15, 2014, 03:16:58 AM »
 :thumbsup:

Offline lostnbroken

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #68 on: October 15, 2014, 03:19:23 AM »
 :cloud9:   this gives me new hope in that he will save my family who died without knowing him or being re-born...they and ALL will be made new and whole so we can ALL eb with him...this is my heart..

Online Tom

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #69 on: October 15, 2014, 03:21:52 AM »
That is one of the best things about knowing the truth of scripture.

Offline Seth

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #70 on: October 15, 2014, 03:23:13 AM »
:cloud9:   this gives me new hope in that he will save my family who died without knowing him or being re-born...they and ALL will be made new and whole so we can ALL eb with him...this is my heart..

No doubt about it.  :HeartThrob:

Jesus really does love them. You can believe that without qualifications.  :dsunny:

Offline Seth

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #71 on: October 15, 2014, 03:33:00 AM »
I remember when I first believed that everyone will be saved my first thought was "so Jesus really does love everyone."  :laughing7:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #72 on: October 15, 2014, 08:51:38 AM »
under mountains[volcanoes???]
Mountain can mean just that, a mountain.
But it often means an authority. A mighty nation. Where mountains. Burning those mountains means destroying nations. Mountain Babylon was destroyed. It's power is reduced to zero.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline ed

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #73 on: October 15, 2014, 04:23:17 PM »
:cloud9:   this gives me new hope in that he will save my family who died without knowing him or being re-born...they and ALL will be made new and whole so we can ALL eb with him...this is my heart..

The hell you say?   :declare:

God has never not loved anyone in your family.

It really is an awesome thing to look back on history that we once had muddied with false notions and see that even in all the turmoil, God loved.

God loved, God loves, God will love!

:runaroundsayingwhoot!:




Offline eaglesway

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Re: The Hell Thread
« Reply #74 on: October 15, 2014, 08:41:09 PM »
WHOOT!
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com