The Hell Thread

[alihaymeg]

Because they have something to defend. If they give up on (ET) thay have to rethink their entire belief system.

[WhiteWings]

i think punishment seems to be in future in front of the white throne,

Just think about it like this:
If people are already in hell or heaven they are already judged. That would make the White Throne judgement a joke.
I think that after burning 6000 years in hell people get the hint and don't need the White Throne judgement to confirm they are in pain/hell....

[IceMan84]

Has anyone seen these Youtube videos? I thought the guy did a pretty good job of explaining the universalist view of hell. This is part 1 of 4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KARi1p-M_s

[claypot]

i think punishment seems to be in future in front of the white throne,

Just think about it like this:
If people are already in hell or heaven they are already judged. That would make the White Throne judgement a joke.
I think that after burning 6000 years in hell people get the hint and don't need the White Throne judgement to confirm they are in pain/hell....

I just thought of something right now. The White Throne is the judgement we experience in this phase of our existence, while we are what we call 'alive' but Jesus calls dead or asleep. The Lake of Fire is where we are CAST. We are cast into death, into a realm that is very dark to our understanding but cast we are into it.

Just my 

cp

[Nathan]

i think punishment seems to be in future in front of the white throne,

Just think about it like this:
If people are already in hell or heaven they are already judged. That would make the White Throne judgement a joke.
I think that after burning 6000 years in hell people get the hint and don't need the White Throne judgement to confirm they are in pain/hell....

I just thought of something right now. The White Throne is the judgement we experience in this phase of our existence, while we are what we call 'alive' but Jesus calls dead or asleep. The Lake of Fire is where we are CAST. We are cast into death, into a realm that is very dark to our understanding but cast we are into it.

Just my 

cp

There is a specific group of people that the lake of fire is reserved for . . .and it ain't us bro . . .it's only for those whose names (identity) is not in the book of life.  God is my lake of fire . . . through Christ I am not only redeemed, but also cleansed . .. he's my laver, he's my candlestick, he's my bread, he's my praise and prayer .  . .

Hey, I that reminds me . . .I just saw this in our last service . ..kinda cool I thought . . .

I've always seen and understood that the tabernacle is a pattern after the body of Christ . .with his feet as the altar of sacrifice, his pierced side as the laver, his hands as the candlestick holding the 7 flames (churches) which illuminate the bread . . .I got all of that . .but  I would then always make the jump over the altar of incense and see the ark as the head . .the holy of holies setting on the shoulders .  .but that would always be ignoring the positioning of the altar of incense. 

Then it occurred to me . .the altar of incense is my head . . .a prayer is what ascends from the heart into the mind and out of the mouth . . .the head.  with my "lips" I will praise thee . . .the entire body is what "leads up" to the holy of holies . . .  Then what "is" the holy of holies in relation to the body?

It's the crown.

My head "was" crowned with a curse . .that's why Jesus wore the crown of thorns . .so show that the curse of the mind was crucified with Christ and has been replaced with a crown of gold . . .a crown of God.  So now, we to are also crowned with this same crown.  That which was once cursed is now reversed an blessed.

Revelation 19:12
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.


No man knows the identity . . no mind of flesh can comprehend and identify with the personal, intimate relationship between the Father and his Son . . .Between the Son and his Bride.

[claypot]

i think punishment seems to be in future in front of the white throne,

Just think about it like this:
If people are already in hell or heaven they are already judged. That would make the White Throne judgement a joke.
I think that after burning 6000 years in hell people get the hint and don't need the White Throne judgement to confirm they are in pain/hell....

I just thought of something right now. The White Throne is the judgement we experience in this phase of our existence, while we are what we call 'alive' but Jesus calls dead or asleep. The Lake of Fire is where we are CAST. We are cast into death, into a realm that is very dark to our understanding but cast we are into it.

Just my 

cp

There is a specific group of people that the lake of fire is reserved for . . .and it ain't us bro . . .it's only for those whose names (identity) is not in the book of life.  God is my lake of fire . . . through Christ I am not only redeemed, but also cleansed . .. he's my laver, he's my candlestick, he's my bread, he's my praise and prayer .  . .

Hey, I that reminds me . . .I just saw this in our last service . ..kinda cool I thought . . .

I've always seen and understood that the tabernacle is a pattern after the body of Christ . .with his feet as the altar of sacrifice, his pierced side as the laver, his hands as the candlestick holding the 7 flames (churches) which illuminate the bread . . .I got all of that . .but  I would then always make the jump over the altar of incense and see the ark as the head . .the holy of holies setting on the shoulders .  .but that would always be ignoring the positioning of the altar of incense. 

Then it occurred to me . .the altar of incense is my head . . .a prayer is what ascends from the heart into the mind and out of the mouth . . .the head.  with my "lips" I will praise thee . . .the entire body is what "leads up" to the holy of holies . . .  Then what "is" the holy of holies in relation to the body?

It's the crown.

My head "was" crowned with a curse . .that's why Jesus wore the crown of thorns . .so show that the curse of the mind was crucified with Christ and has been replaced with a crown of gold . . .a crown of God.  So now, we to are also crowned with this same crown.  That which was once cursed is now reversed an blessed.

Revelation 19:12
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.


No man knows the identity . . no mind of flesh can comprehend and identify with the personal, intimate relationship between the Father and his Son . . .Between the Son and his Bride.

There is so much still in my very essence that needs to be cast into the Lake of Fire.

I am seeing some interesting things in your descriptions Brother and I want to check into them more to see how they apply to my life and the lives of all of us. You are good at describing things.

The tabernacle is the divine workings within us would you say? You know, we are the temple.........

cp

[Nathan]

Oh, absolutely!  We are fashioned after Christ . .our personal walk must first take us through the altar of sacrifice where we are burned, our flesh is consumed and just as the animal sacrifice was transformed from matter to a gas . . .(smoke) we are transfromed from walking in flesh, to walking in Spirit.

The Laver is our water baptism . .it "is" a visible manifestation of an invisible experience . . .but it's the invisible experience that brings the completion, not the water baptism.  Our feet were purfied . . our walk was transformed at the altar of sacrifice, our hands are washed at the laver . .our works are purified through the washing of the spirit as it submerges us into the holiness within the body of God.

It also ushers us through the veil that leads into the temple.  On the right, a candle stick with six branches . . .the number of man . .and up the center is the trunk that rises above the 6 branches which contains the 7th flame  . . .they burn in unison to illuminate the bread.  Remember, the laver washes the hands of the priests . .the baptism of water/spirit/fire washes our works . .to illuminate light upon the bread . .the bread . the 12 loaves . . the government of Christ . . .he is the bread.  12 loaves=12 tribes= nation of Israel . . .we are all spiritual Jews . .grafted "in" the kingdom of God. 

The bread gives nourishment to the body . . . this would be something to keep in mind in our trivial debates with one another . .to first ask ourselves "Does what I'm about to write have the potential to bring nourishment?  Or criticism, rebuke?  Is it constructive?  Or destructive?  Bread of the temple is to bring nourishment to the body.

My mind is not to worry . .but "pray" about everything . .the altar of incense is a picture of a heavenly mind . . .a mind filled with heavenly thoughts . . .praying praise . .and "that" leads me into the very presence  . . . the promises . the rewards of the promises . .the crown . . the blessed mind is a mind that is at rest . . .the holy of holies is the realm of rest.

It is an overlay of Christ . .it is an overlay of "me".

[Cardinal]

  Amen Nathan, good post.....

If I could but add; the bread of faces (faces mean natures) of all 12 of those tribes are formed within us, as we eat of it in the light of Christ. It ALL speaks to us of spiritual realities found in Him. Blessings....

[claypot]

Oh, absolutely!  We are fashioned after Christ . .our personal walk must first take us through the altar of sacrifice where we are burned, our flesh is consumed and just as the animal sacrifice was transformed from matter to a gas . . .(smoke) we are transfromed from walking in flesh, to walking in Spirit.

The Laver is our water baptism . .it "is" a visible manifestation of an invisible experience . . .but it's the invisible experience that brings the completion, not the water baptism.  Our feet were purfied . . our walk was transformed at the altar of sacrifice, our hands are washed at the laver . .our works are purified through the washing of the spirit as it submerges us into the holiness within the body of God.

It also ushers us through the veil that leads into the temple.  On the right, a candle stick with six branches . . .the number of man . .and up the center is the trunk that rises above the 6 branches which contains the 7th flame  . . .they burn in unison to illuminate the bread.  Remember, the laver washes the hands of the priests . .the baptism of water/spirit/fire washes our works . .to illuminate light upon the bread . .the bread . the 12 loaves . . the government of Christ . . .he is the bread.  12 loaves=12 tribes= nation of Israel . . .we are all spiritual Jews . .grafted "in" the kingdom of God. 

The bread gives nourishment to the body . . . this would be something to keep in mind in our trivial debates with one another . .to first ask ourselves "Does what I'm about to write have the potential to bring nourishment?  Or criticism, rebuke?  Is it constructive?  Or destructive?  Bread of the temple is to bring nourishment to the body.

My mind is not to worry . .but "pray" about everything . .the altar of incense is a picture of a heavenly mind . . .a mind filled with heavenly thoughts . . .praying praise . .and "that" leads me into the very presence  . . . the promises . the rewards of the promises . .the crown . . the blessed mind is a mind that is at rest . . .the holy of holies is the realm of rest.

It is an overlay of Christ . .it is an overlay of "me".

Wowzer Nathan. I looked into the Tabernacle in Ex 26...... and only the making of a human person could compare in its complexity! You have drawn great comparisons yet I see you have but touched all that is there.

I'm a thinkin we should start a new thread and walk through the Tabernacle and how it is analogous to our beings and how it is us right now.

cp

[Cardinal]

I'm a thinkin we should start a new thread and walk through the Tabernacle and how it is analogous to our beings and how it is us right now. cp

  Well, seeing how Heb. 10 tells us it's the pattern of heavenly (spiritual) things, I don't understand why everyone doesn't study the tabernacle, so sounds like a plan to me.... Blessings....

[Taffy]

I'm a thinkin we should start a new thread and walk through the Tabernacle and how it is analogous to our beings and how it is us right now. cp

  Well, seeing how Heb. 10 tells us it's the pattern of heavenly (spiritual) things, I don't understand why everyone doesn't study the tabernacle, so sounds like a plan to me.... Blessings....

been long a coming..gee I like to learn

[Zeek]

so sounds like a plan to me.... Blessings....

I would love to see a thread re: this.  I have not studied the tabernacle and would love to learn.

Z

[sven]

do you think this verse might have a deeper meaning?

Jeremiah 31:40

And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the torrent Kidron, unto the corner of the horse-gate toward the east, shall be holy unto Jehovah: it shall not be plucked up, nor overthrown any more for ever

according to the footnote of a German translation, this valley is the valley of Hinnom, Gehenna

[Nathan]

Absolutely . . I think EVERY verse has a deeper meaning . . . It's Christmas every day with the Lord . . .he gives us rich and expensive gifts that are wrapped in his word.  As exquisite as the wrapping is, the gift is that much greater.

[NinjaWizards777]

So if hell is not merely a place where people burn and scream forever (because what God is revealing to me is it is not forever, praise God)....than what IS hell exactly?

I know theirs some different ideas and views floating around but what can we make of it? In revelations it says that hell was "cast into the lake of fire" so then also what is the lake of fire...are they both corrective purposes or what?

ive heard some say that the lake of fire is God himself, Im not sure what I think of that just yet but...yeah

[Cardinal]

  I just thought I'd throw this out there for anyone who wants to think on it. I had a dream/vision once that really startled me. I "awoke" spiritually (though still asleep physically), to see NOTHING but lava (lake of fire?) EVERYWHERE. I didn't even see any part of my own body; all I saw or was aware of was this lava and the red glow it gave off.

I then jolted awake from the shock of it and I was like, "WHOA! WHAT IS THIS GOD?!", thinking, this could not be good, I'm in trouble now.   

And what He gave me was that lava was as His love, the OVERFLOWING scourge that heals everything that it touches. When He comes, the mountains MELT like wax. It is as His SEED, that comes down from the mount of God, ie. saviors will arise on Mt. Zion. Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

I know theirs some different ideas and views floating around but what can we make of it? In revelations it says that hell was "cast into the lake of fire" so then also what is the lake of fire...are they both corrective purposes or what?

Both?
I think hell simply is another name for grave, tomb and of course helmet 

Word History: Hell comes to us directly from Old English hel. Because the Roman Church prevailed in England from an early date, the Roman—that is, Mediterranean—belief that hell was hot prevailed there too; in Old English hel is a black and fiery place of eternal torment for the damned. But because the Vikings were converted to Christianity centuries after the Anglo-Saxons, the Old Norse hel, from the same source as Old English hel, retained its earlier pagan senses as both a place and a person. As a place, hel is the abode of oathbreakers, other evil persons, and those unlucky enough not to have died in battle. It contrasts sharply with Valhalla, the hall of slain heroes. Unlike the Mediterranean hell, the Old Norse hel is very cold. Hel is also the name of the goddess or giantess who presides in hel, the half blue-black, half white daughter of Loki and the giantess Angrbotha. The Indo-European root behind these Germanic words is *kel-, "to cover, conceal" (so hell is the "concealed place"); it also gives us hall, hole, hollow, and helmet.

Why is hell cast in LoF? -> just some thoughts of a heretic so skip to the next post...
Hell=grave and grave of course has a strong link with death. "Death where is your victory", "No more death", "Final enemy"
I think casting hell into LoF is just one of the many ways of repeatingly saying death does no longer exit.
The good people are resurrected long ago. Maybe the hell/graves are completely with people in it are thrown into LoF.
A bit in line with the sheep and goats that are cast into LoF.

You also wrote that some say God is LoF. I'm not sure of anything but that's closesed to what I think.
But I don't see it as fire. I don't think it even remotely looks like fire. Just as I think whole humanity isn't transformed in either a goat or a sheep on judgement day.

[WhiteWings]

to see NOTHING but lava (lake of fire?) EVERYWHERE. I didn't even see any part of my own body; all I saw or was aware of was this lava and the red glow it gave off.

So all the  about lava is true but it isn't painful.

[Cardinal]

  Define "painful".  I've been in pain one way or another since I met God, as the fire of His Spirit purges me, and really annoys those around me.  Blessings....

[NinjaWizards777]

Im not personally convinved that that whatever "hell" is supposed to reference to is death. Im not sure that makes sense


"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into [death]."?

 what? everyone must "die"...im not sure thats what is implied

[WhiteWings]

Everybody dies. Everybody is part of the kingdom of Father. But not everybody is part of the kingdom of the Son.
I think your verse refers to that?

Verse altered the way I see it:
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body not being part of the first resurrection/kingdom.

I'm sure someone will post some relavant comments....

[Cardinal]

  Makes perfect sense to me if hell since I believe "hell" is really Sheol, a type of perdition for the souls of men NOT made perfect or complete IN Him, and for death, as it is the last enemy. There again, I think Christendom missed understanding that and so made this horrendous mistake, because they lost the Jewish influence of the church that they had at the beginning.

So to me all He is saying is that all that is left not in Him being perfected, WILL BE. Blessings...

[sheila]

   Hi Card,

   I couldn't help but  relate  lava to [hot rock].

   and stones of fire

   His Holy Mountain being built up

   through this process  NEW LAND FORMS[earth]

  also to tie in this scripture..the knowledge of the Lord

  will cover the earth...and there was no more sea

   and for some reason..I want to tie in Law and Bones with stone

   Secrets of Enoch 29

   And for all the heavenly troops I imaged the image and essence of fire, and my eye looked at the  very hard firm rock,
and from the gleam of my eye the lightening received it's very wonderful and delightful nature, which is both fire in water and water in fire,and one does not put out the other,nor does the one dry up the other.Therefore the lightening is  brighter than the sun,softer than water and firmer than hard rock.

  And from the rock I cut off a great fire, and from the fire I created the  orders of the  incorpeal 10 troops of angels.
And their weapons are feiry and their rain-ment a burning flame
And I commanded that each one should stand in his order.

  Don't know..but when I read the above fiery lava etc all come to mind like your spiritual vision

[Cardinal]

  I like it! The reason you seeing bone and stone, is because our bones are made up of calcium (which is a stony thing), and the law is as stone, which is why not a bone of His was broken, and also our stony heart (Eve) that was made from a rib (covers the TRUE heart of celestial flesh/Christ).

Loved the part about the new land forming from the lava; that speaks to me of the glorified body, as made of molten law, ie. law the Holy Ghost has consumed.

The mountains melt like wax; He showed me that this is as the law melting beneath His feet in us (the ELEMENTAL things that we leave behind to go on unto perfection).

And it makes the waters below the firmament (law realm) solid that we might walk upon (or above) them to walk in the firmament (heaven/realm of Spirit). It's ALL good, isn't it?! Blessings....

[legoman]

Im not personally convinved that that whatever "hell" is supposed to reference to is death. Im not sure that makes sense


"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into [death]."?

 what? everyone must "die"...im not sure thats what is implied

Hi Ninja, you are right in this case.

WW is correct about hell meaning "grave" or "state of the dead".  But that is not all the meanings of "hell".

You really need to read some in-depth studies on hell to figure this all out.

Here is a quick summary:  Hell is translated from 4 words:

sheol - means "grave" or "state of the dead" in hebrew
hades - means "grave" or "state of the dead" in greek
gehenna - means valley of hinnom or valley of gehenna - this is a place where the garbage and criminals were burned up - can be used as a metaphor for judgement.
tartarus - used one time to refer to the abyss

Yet all of these are translated as "hell" in many bibles.

Too make matters worse, in the KJV, sheol/hades is translated as "grave" about half the time and "hell" about half the time.

The verse you mention above about it being better to cut off your hand than enter hell is talking about "gehenna".  Jesus was talking about judgement:  it is better to cut off your hand (spiritually) than enter the lake of fire.  He was talking about how we need to corrected and purged - spiritually.  We need to cut out of the part of heart (spiritually) that causes us to sin.  Cut out our spiritual eye, spiritual hand, etc.  If we don't we will go into judgement where it will be done for us.

Either we do it now in this life (judged in this life), or do it later in the lake of fire (judged in the lake of fire).  One way or another we are judged into righteousness (Isaiah 26:9).

Sorry if I'm rambling a bit here, its getting late....