The Hell Thread

[97531]

Well this topic keeps getting recycled so lets make one that is sticky that we can all share and hopefully newbies can learn from it.

Let's get a picture:

[B_T]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_hell

You had to start with this :)

[Shadow]

The biblical doctrine of hell examined (supports ET) sounds familiar

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/full.asp?id=9|23|89


     VS

Absolute Assurance

in

JESUS CHRIST

Four Views of the Salvation of Our God

 http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm

I must say I prefer the Absolute Assurance article

[james.goetz]

Despite the Roman takeover of Christian doctrine, many people in the Early Church believed that New Testament books such as 1 Peter taught that hell was temporary. See http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html.

I also like my article http://theoperspectives.blogspot.com/2007/10/orthodoxy-and-gregory-of-nyssas.html.

[Shadow]

The Letter From Hell

One day a woman named Louise fell asleep in her bed, and dreamed a very
frightful dream. She dreamed that someone in Hell wrote a letter to her, and it was
to be delivered to her by a messenger. The messenger passed between the lakes
of Hell, and found his way to the door that would lead him to the outside
world.

Louise dreamed that the messenger walked to her house, came inside, and
gently but firmly woke Louise up. He gave her the message, saying only a friend had
written it to her from Hell. Louise, in her dream, with trembling hands took
the letter and read:

My Friend I stand in Judgment now,
And feel that you're to blame somehow.
On earth, I walked with you day by day,
And never did you point the way.

You knew the Lord in truth and glory,
But never did you tell the story.
My knowledge then was very dim;
You could have led me safe to Him.

Though we lived together on the earth,
you never told me of the second birth,
and now I stand this day condemned,
Because you failed to mention Him.

You taught me many things, that's true,
I called you "friend" and trusted you,
But I learn now that it's too late,
You could have kept me from this fate.

We walked by day and talked by night,
And yet you showed me not the light.
You let me live, and love, and die,
You knew I'd never live on high.

Yes, I called you a "friend" in life,
And trusted you through joy and strife.
And yet on coming to the end,
I cannot, now, call you "My Friend."

Marsha

After reading the letter, Louise awoke. The dream was still so real in her
mind and sweat dropped from her body in pools. She swore she could still smell
the acidic stench of brimstone and smoke from her room. As she contemplated the
meaning of her dream, she realized that as a Christian,
she failed in her duty to "Go out to all the world and preach the Gospel." As
she thought of that, she promised herself that the next day, she would call
Marsha and invite her to church with her.

The next morning she called Marsha and this was the conversation:

"Bill, Is Marsha there?"
"Louise, you don't know?"
"No, Bill, know what?"
"Marsha was Killed Last Night In A Car Accident. I thought you knew."

~ Author Unknown ~

Has anyone seen something like this, apparently there's a You Tube clip similar to this, also it seems as if this is based on a Jack Chick comic

Why I brought this up, is that in the past I would always have somehow felt I was to blame, if someone died and I hadn't told them about Christ and getting saved (perhaps because I've never been able to embrace the ET doctrine) ie What will happen if I don't accept Christ, will I go to hell

But I have to ask the question, if God wanted her reached then, being All Knowing and Sovereign, he would have found another way

Was it really Louise's fault 

The trouble is that in churches they tell us that God hates sin so much, His justice is what sends us to hell if we don't choose Christ

How can we be entirely to blame when:

Isa 45:5  I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6  That they may know from the rising of the sun,and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace,and create evil: the LORD do all these things

Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22  For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

[Nathan]

Here at work there are several people in the plant that forward chain letters and such.  This is one I did actually get and I deleted it.  It's a play on guilt and intimidation.  It's based on the fact that hell is ET.  I get aggrivated at church-going people that get behind these sorts of things.  Establishing a relationship with God is not based on fear or guilt.  I'm not here to seek and save that which is lost . .that was Christ's job and no one could do it better . .but yet that's the expectation.  We're supposed to go out and save the world that's going to hell in a hand-basket.

Brace yourself . . .Jesus did not come to save you from going to hell.  He didn't come to die.  He came to bring you resurrection life . . .but to do so, he had to go through death first.  Our focus is always about the death . . .but that cross and tomb is empty.  Why focus on something that is empty?  God so desires to have "relationship" with us "through" Christ, through the blood, through the redemption.  How much greater is one's message when one chooses to focus on Who Christ IS as opposed to the works Jesus did.


It was someone's relligious imagination that schemed up that so called dream . . .to play of the emotions of the innocent.  To relay a message that says "no matter how busy you are for God . . .it will never be enough."  The message for this generation is not one of works . . .but one of rest.

[DeeDee]

I do think its all possibly in a persons mind. When something worries you so much it's amazing what you dream or feel. For example I have been praying very hard to understand what the right path is. Should I believe in ET or US? Anyhow the other morning as I awoke the first thing that came into my head was ET is real! Was a very  powerful thought, terribly nerve racking. I am now beginning to think the only reason I had that thought is because I obsess so much over what I should believe. When I first woke up and had that thought, I believed it was a higher power telling me it is real.
Does anyone else know what I am talking about? Has anyone here experieced something like that?

Would love your thoughts

Blessings
Dee

[WhiteWings]

Anyhow the other morning as I awoke the first thing that came into my head was ET is real!

IMO that means absolutely nothing.
If you have financial problems and fell asleep worrying about them the changes are big you wake up with those thoughts.
If you are a chainsmoker or alcoholic the chances are big you first thought is about a smoke or drink.
If someone you loved just died it's very likely your 1st thought when you wake up.
If you can't decide to buy that house or not you will remeber the thought when you wake up.
etc
etc

Below a quote from something I posted yesterday:

Maybe not an hoax in all cases but a genuine illusion.
Several years ago I saw an experiment on Discovery Channel.
A group of none related tourists payed for some sort of guide tour. It was in the USA possibly at a place that had reported UFO sighting in the past.
It was some sort of walk in nature. You know the guide telling what type of tree and bird they just walked past.
Then they entered an area with red/white ribbons. Something like a police crimescene.
The guide told 'm he knew very little about it. Basically he just knew they should stay on the path marked with the ribbons. And that something crashed that night.
All there was to be seen was some wreckage that looked more like a collapsed shed instead of  spaceship. There was one or 2 guards standing with their backs to the path. They where unarmed. And didn't move.
At the tour continued and the watched some more birds. At the end of the day they where brought to the city by a bus. In the bus some the guide mentioned an UFO in a very vague way. Arrived in the city there the gone their own ways.
6 month later they all where interviewed. What was behind the ribbons.
The place was swarming with aggressive marines that pointed their M16s at the tourists.
There where spaceshuttle like engines. Basically it looked like a huge spaceship has crashed.
Others remembers smoking holes in the ground.
So all remembered something that never was happened. No indoctrination at all.
It was an experiment to test how reliable an eye witness on a crime scene is.

No think what happens with your mind if you often listen to an hellfire sermon....

[DeeDee]

I have been having another interesting thought concerning hell. Its just a thought and if some of you feel its got no basis in reality please tell me (in a nice way  ).

Matthew 12:40 is a passage often used to try and affirm that the hell of ET is in the centre of the earth. Now whilst researching this I found something interesting. In this passage we assume Jesus is the one referred to as the son of man right, but Jesus was dead for 2 nights and was raised on the 3rd day, and the "person/persons" referred to here were in the heart of the earth for 3days and 3nights. Could hell / corrections only last 3 days? Now I think I have seen something like that on these boards before but I could'nt find it now. Please steer me to that thread (if it exists) or tell me what you think.

Blessings
DeeDee

[WhiteWings]

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3570.0
Is a bit about that. Some seem to feel punishment is short.
Martin once wrote something to a similar effect. Something between 1 week and 3 months?
He came to that conclusion from combining verses all over the place. But that's all I can remember...

Let just assume Jesus was 3 days in hell. And that from that you can conclude that punishment also lasts 3 days.
Then there is another problem.
In those 3 days He also had to created hell, make it burn, wake up the dead etc.
Simply because if hell was already functional then some dead sinners will already be inthere for say 5000 years.

[DeeDee]

Hmm interesting indeed.

Let just assume Jesus was 3 days in hell. And that from that you can conclude that punishment also lasts 3 days.
Then there is another problem.
In those 3 days He also had to created hell, make it burn, wake up the dead etc.
Simply because if hell was already functional then some dead sinners will already be inthere for say 5000 years.

Yes that is true, if "hell" is "real" then there would be people there from the beginning of time - some would argue that as unfair and others will simply say that what difference does it make how long some have been there for since its for eternity ( i.e a few thousand years longer makes no difference). Its seems to me tho that the ET supporters claim that it wasn't Jesus who created hell, it was God in the beginning when He created all other things. Therefore I do think the theory that hell is simply a place of corrections fits - it would make the most sense now would'nt it

[WhiteWings]

Hell is nowhere mentioned in the creation account. But Heaven isn't either. So that's no proof of anything...
But even if God created it then it will go away. The Bible states that heaven and earth will pass away.
Meaning God will uncreate all we know of. Simply put things go back to before  what science calls Big Bang.
Or Biblical speaking before Genesis 1:1
So IF hell is really in the center of the earth as some ETs claim them it's uncreated also.

My main point was:
IF hell exists
AND punishment in hell lasts 3 days
THEN people that died long ago have to be transported from the grave to hell at the start of those 3 days.

Therefore I do think the theory that hell is simply a place of corrections fits - it would make the most sense now would'nt it

I have my idea's about it. Writing them down will likely get this thread closed within a week.
So let me stay on safe ground by stating:
I do NOT believe in a hell with natural fire as we know it.
IF there is fire is spiritual and teaching. Perhaps unpleasant but no torture.
Hell (if it exists) can look like classic hell but I would be suprised that it looks totally different.
It will have an end.

[DeeDee]

I have been having new thoughts about all this today. It occured to me how strange it is that people seem to realise that purgatory is a Catholic invention (just like priest confessions etc.), yet they can't accept that the classic fire and brimstone eternal hell is also a man made / church concept. I mean even Pope John Paul II did'nt believe in the "classic" hell. See the below link for proof.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

I mean that has got to tell you something. I have seen testimonies of priests admitting that hell is an invention (at least the fiery eternal kind).

About hell being in the centre of the earth. That I believe is easily debunked aswell. Our latest technology has allowed for scientists to take types of "scans" of the earths layers using things like earquakes etc. - Classic hell teaches that you can feel everything that is happening to you, that would mean you have a body right, so if people are in hell (like so many testimonies of people who believed they themselves went to hell would claim or like the whole well to hell hoax claimed) right now suffering for all eternity, would'nt something show up on those "scans"?

Stop letting the teaching of hell come inbetween you and the wonderful relationship you can have with God. Let go people.

Blessings
DeeDee

[alihaymeg]

It's always interesting to read these theories and ways of explaining certain phenomenon. I love to philosophize myself, but I think it is important to remember that we are not intended to know all of the details of everything. We don't need to know. Certain things are all important to explaining the message in a way that it can be understood, and in an accurate way. That is our responsibility. All of the other details are open to speculation. As long as we remain open to the instruction of the Holy Spirit of God we can ask those questions and maybe get some answers. We should always focus on the things that we can agree on though. Unity in the body is God's will, and we cannot afford to ignore that responsibility any longer.

[WhiteWings]

I'm not using this as (possible) proof for hell but the scans you mention aren't that great.
Besides of that if hell exists in the core of the earth it's not normal geology at work.
The laws of nature designed by God himself just make it impossible to have underground lakes in a molten lava mass. It simply collapses. If it's there its God keeping it into shape. Then He can also hide it from scans.
If if if. I can just as well claim God has a secret wine storage there where He keeps wine for the Lambs wedding.
My point is its so easy to come up with unreal things. If the proof gets hard just say nothing is impossible for God....

You know purgatory always looked a bit like UR for me.
It teaches you are there a limited period of time. You leave when purged of uncleanes.
Isn't that what UR teaches?
I wonder it's some midway between pure UR and pure Paganism?
Perhaps some sort of political decision to attrackt more pagans into Christan church?
Comments?

[Nathan]

Looking for a literal hell?  concluding it lasts literally 3 days?  Walk in the spirit???

What if it's not about the length of time in hell, but it's about RESURRECTION!!  The number 3 is symbolizing resurrection life, not death. 

I agree that Catholics may be on to something with the purgatory issue . . .not as they believe it so much, but there may be a thread of truth to it in that hell is not a permant place any more than one's stay in the lake of fire is forever.  The fire itself may be for ever, but not our stay in it.


Tear down this temple and in three days I will go to hell???  No . . .in three days I will RAISE IT UP.  Our emphasis is in the wrong place in this.  At least from where I see things anyway.

[sven]

how long do u think lasts punishment of the unbeliever?
the jews believe gehenna is for 12 months, older german universalist believed in a literal hell fire for thousands of years, maybe the Year of Jubilee, the 50th year in the Thora is a hint for the length of the punishment?

as i tend to believe in a resurrection on earth not a "spiritiual afterlife", there might be punishment for the wicked on earth, but im not sure how logic that is

[alihaymeg]

as i tend to believe in a resurrection on earth not a "spiritiual afterlife", there might be punishment for the wicked on earth, but im not sure how logic that is

It's not illogical at all. Nor is it un-biblical. The law of reaping and sewing is in full effect. Not in another life, but in this one. Belief in (UR) turns up the heat on us to be holy as He is holy. Paul points out in 1 Corinthians 6 that we are to be perfected here in this life so that we may be counted worthy to judge the world. There is a calling out there for a remnant who will be set apart as priests and kings.

1 Corinthians 6
 1Dare any one of you, having a matter against another, prosecute his suit before the unjust, and not before the saints?

 2Do ye not then know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world is judged by you, are ye unworthy of [the] smallest judgments?

 3Do ye not know that we shall judge angels? and not then matters of this life?

 4If then ye have judgments as to things of this life, set those [to judge] who are little esteemed in the assembly.

 5I speak to you [to put you] to shame. Thus there is not a wise person among you, not even one, who shall be able to decide between his brethren!

 6But brother prosecutes his suit with brother, and that before unbelievers.

 7Already indeed then it is altogether a fault in you that ye have suits between yourselves. Why do ye not rather suffer wrong? why are ye not rather defrauded?

 8But *ye* do wrong, and defraud, and this [your] brethren.


When he talks about those who are unrightous not being able to "inherit the kingdom" he is not talking about heaven.

 1.   Kingdom-Basileia (Transliterated)- royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
a.   not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom
b.   of the royal power of Jesus as the triumphant Messiah
c.   of the royal power and dignity conferred on Christians in the Messiah's kingdom
2.   a kingdom, the territory subject to the rule of a king
3.   used in the N.T. to refer to the reign of the Messiah

1.   Inherit-Kleronomeo (Transliterated)to receive a lot, receive by lot
a.   esp. to receive a part of an inheritance, receive as an inheritance, obtain by right of inheritance
b.   to be an heir, to inherit
2.   to receive the portion assigned to one, receive an allotted portion, receive as one's own or as a possession
3.   to become partaker of, to obtain

nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

He is talking to believers who are expected to become holy as Christ is holy here in this life. Not some far off place or time. So, believing in (UR) does not give us an excuse to do nothing. On the contrary, it reveals the true purpose of our existance here; to become holy as Christ is holy right here and now.

[sven]

there were these verses that brought me on the idea:

daniel 12,2

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to aionon life, and some to reproaches and aionon abhorrence.

proverbs 11,31

If the righteous receive their due on earth, how much more the ungodly and the sinner!

Matthew 26,46 is a judgement about living men not about the dead, and its no judgement about unbelievers in the context but evil-doers, so this might punishment on earth as well

for me the concordant expositions are the most logic:

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheJudgmentOfTheNations.html

[sven]

if kolasis aionon is a judgement about nation, how long do u think might last the punishment of individuals?

somethink came to my mind, the jewish tradition says, human is responsible for its sin beginning at the age of 21, psalm 90,10 says:

Our days may come to seventy years, or eighty, if our strength endures; yet the best of them are but trouble and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away.

from 21 to 70 years are 49 years

the jubile year is the 50th year:

3. Mose 25,10

And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.

might this a hint to the lenght of the punishment?

50 years of severe punishment might be enough for the most wicked man, what do you think about this thought?

[DeeDee]

if kolasis aionon is a judgement about nation, how long do u think might last the punishment of individuals?

somethink came to my mind, the jewish tradition says, human is responsible for its sin beginning at the age of 21, psalm 90,10 says:

Our days may come to seventy years, or eighty, if our strength endures; yet the best of them are but trouble and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away.

from 21 to 70 years are 49 years

the jubile year is the 50th year:

3. Mose 25,10

And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.

might this a hint to the lenght of the punishment?

50 years of severe punishment might be enough for the most wicked man, what do you think about this thought?

Could be, I also had a few theories on this forums about the duration of punishment (based on hints in scripture) but I can't think where it is now. In fact there are many such theories all over these boards. I know Martin had a good one 2. Interesting but only God knows truthfully. The most accepted theory is that punishment can last up to 1000 years.

Blessings
Dee

[DeeDee]

I have been having another interesting thought concerning hell. Its just a thought and if some of you feel its got no basis in reality please tell me (in a nice way  ).

Matthew 12:40 is a passage often used to try and affirm that the hell of ET is in the centre of the earth. Now whilst researching this I found something interesting. In this passage we assume Jesus is the one referred to as the son of man right, but Jesus was dead for 2 nights and was raised on the 3rd day, and the "person/persons" referred to here were in the heart of the earth for 3days and 3nights. Could hell / corrections only last 3 days? Now I think I have seen something like that on these boards before but I could'nt find it now. Please steer me to that thread (if it exists) or tell me what you think.

Blessings
DeeDee

Here is the quote from my theory Sven and here is what WhiteWings answered. In it is the link to the thread this was discussed.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3570.0
Is a bit about that. Some seem to feel punishment is short.
Martin once wrote something to a similar effect. Something between 1 week and 3 months?
He came to that conclusion from combining verses all over the place. But that's all I can remember...

Let just assume Jesus was 3 days in hell. And that from that you can conclude that punishment also lasts 3 days.
Then there is another problem.
In those 3 days He also had to created hell, make it burn, wake up the dead etc.
Simply because if hell was already functional then some dead sinners will already be inthere for say 5000 years

Blessings
DeeDee

[sven]

i think Jesus was just dead, i think there is nobody in heaven yet and nobody in "hell" yet, or how you take it, all people are in "hell" (scheol) until ressurection, i think punishment seems to be in future in front of the white throne, i think second death is death, a state of no-existence, for me the concordant expositions are the most logic, but i have no idea how long punishments lasts in front of the white throne, and what second death is.

Acts 2

29 Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day; 
30 a prophet, therefore, being, and knowing that with an oath God did swear to him, out of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, to raise up the Christ, to sit upon his throne, 
31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 
32 `This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses; 
33 at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father -- he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear; 
34 for David did not go up to the heavens, and he saith himself: The Lord saith to my lord, Sit thou at my right hand, 

this verse says that David didnt go up to heaven, so i quess nobody except Jesus is in heaven now, so also nobody is punished yet or has been punished after death in my view.

[DeeDee]

i think Jesus was just dead, i think there is nobody in heaven yet and nobody in "hell" yet, or how you take it, all people are in "hell" (scheol) until ressurection, i think punishment seems to be in future in front of the white throne, i think second death is death, a state of no-existence, for me the concordant expositions are the most logic, but i have no idea how long punishments lasts in front of the white throne, and what second death is.

Acts 2

29 Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day; 
30 a prophet, therefore, being, and knowing that with an oath God did swear to him, out of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, to raise up the Christ, to sit upon his throne, 
31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 
32 `This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses; 
33 at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father -- he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear; 
34 for David did not go up to the heavens, and he saith himself: The Lord saith to my lord, Sit thou at my right hand, 

this verse says that David didnt go up to heaven, so i quess nobody except Jesus is in heaven now, so also nobody is punished yet or has been punished after death in my view.

Yes there are many different ways of looking at it. Somethings hint toward people being dead / sleeping in the grave until Jesus comes back - the second coming. Other things hint toward people going to Heaven or punishment after they die. That is not the point tho. No one except God knows for sure in what order things happen and that is really not important. If we were meant to know for certain God would have told us. What the point IS tho and what IS important is the fact that there is NO ETERNAL hellfire or punishments, the fact that Jesus came and died for our sins to save us from ourselves and eternal death. Those are the only facts we need in this instance.

Blessings
Dee

[sven]

What the point IS tho and what IS important is the fact that there is NO ETERNAL hellfire or punishments

thats true, how can a normal human beeing accept the idea of everlasting hell? or say this is just or hope that someone would go there? it will never go in my mind, every person should be glad when telling them, what these words meant, but so many people, they want hell to be real, why?