Author Topic: So What........  (Read 5532 times)

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markp64

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So What........
« on: July 09, 2009, 01:51:59 AM »
First, I have to admit that I believe in Hell. I know I know you say that hell doesn't exist (I don't believe this but for the sake of argument I concede).

Here is the dilemma. If ALL go to heaven, then why does any of this matter? Why believe in Jesus and follow Him if ultimately ALL go to heaven? I was a former athiest, I could have continued in my sin (which at the time was a blast, no guilt) and all would have been good. I die, get chastised, go to heaven. Sign me up!

As a christian, why couldn't I just NOT follow Jesus and continue to lie, steal, covet, lust, hate, etc. None of that would matter because, in the end, I get to go to heaven!

By the way, what kind of punishment will be doled out to me when I die.

Also, who gets punished? My sins have been washed away by the blood of Jesus. Jesus said go and sin no more. Will I still be punished if I sin no more. Will I be punished for my past sins but not my future sins? (assuming I don't sin any longer)

If your theology of no hell is correct than we have nothing to worry about or fear. All will be taken care of. We will ALL be reconciled to God in the end. Again, why tell people about Jesus and why they need Him if even as an Athiest, Buddhist, Scientologist, Satanist etc. we ALL get to go to heaven for eternity. Seems to me that if this is true I'll easily take a little bit of chastisement for everlasting life.

Please, if someone wants the challenge, supply the "proof texts" for Salvation AFTER death in CONTEXT please.

This appears to me to be easy believism.

with respect,
Thanks



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www.mark64.blogspot.com

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: So What........
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2009, 02:20:30 AM »
It's about love.
If you could injure me, as often as you like, knowing that I will and would always forgive you; How long would you continue to hit me with that hammer?
Love eternal is love reciprocal.



                                    www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax0EwhLltcE&feature=related
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 02:26:35 AM by Beloved Servant »

markp64

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Re: So What........
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2009, 02:40:49 AM »
I was really hoping for a real response other than God is love. First, that is only one attribute of God. You failed to answer ANY of my questions. I really am looking for an honest real response. I hope someone on this forum could do this.

Quote
It's about love.
If you could injure me, as often as you like, knowing that I will and would always forgive you; How long would you continue to hit me with that hammer?
Love eternal is love reciprocal.

If I was sadistic, I could continue until whenever I felt satisfied or until you died whichever came first. Your forgiveness would have no bearing on my sadistic nature, in this case. And anyway, according to UR, in the end I would still end up in heaven!


Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: So What........
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2009, 02:42:30 AM »
Well now, I certainly know of what field you plow.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: So What........
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2009, 02:47:39 AM »
 :cloud9: Perhaps you need to read the many articles on this subject available on the Tentmaker site, and then come back and talk to us........Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

markp64

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Re: So What........
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2009, 02:54:11 AM »
I have been studying UR for quite some time now, thank you.

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Well now, I certainly know of what field you plow.

I am a Christian who believes that Christ died for my sins.

Quote
Perhaps you need to read the many articles on this subject available on the Tentmaker site, and then come back and talk to us........Blessings.....

With all due respect, perhaps you could answer my questions. I have read the articles, watched the videos, been to the websites. I feel that I am pretty versed in the originations of UR and the tenants of this particular theology.

i thought I would post some questions because I actually have some real questions that I would like some honest answers to. If you can't answer my questions then maybe point me to a post that answers my specific questions. I don't need to be directed to any other posts that don't deal with the actual questions that I asked.

Respectfully,
Mark

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: So What........
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2009, 02:56:35 AM »
I have been studying UR for quite some time now, thank you.


Hi Mark,

I will take the time to go through your post and answer you based on what I believe.   But before I do could you clarify if you are talking about Christian Universalism or Unitarian Universalism.

Thank you

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: So What........
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2009, 02:58:13 AM »
Respectfully Mark,
Our Father, who art in heaven, will supply you with all the answers.
Seek first the kingdom, the rest will be added.
Don't look to men, look to Him.
Perhaps, that's why your struggling for truth.

markp64

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Re: So What........
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2009, 02:59:45 AM »
Christian Universalism specifically. Thanks

Offline Cardinal

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Re: So What........
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2009, 03:02:45 AM »
I have been studying UR for quite some time now, thank you.

Quote
Well now, I certainly know of what field you plow.

I am a Christian who believes that Christ died for my sins.

Quote
Perhaps you need to read the many articles on this subject available on the Tentmaker site, and then come back and talk to us........Blessings.....

With all due respect, perhaps you could answer my questions. I have read the articles, watched the videos, been to the websites. I feel that I am pretty versed in the originations of UR and the tenants of this particular theology.

i thought I would post some questions because I actually have some real questions that I would like some honest answers to. If you can't answer my questions then maybe point me to a post that answers my specific questions. I don't need to be directed to any other posts that don't deal with the actual questions that I asked.

Respectfully,
Mark

 :cloud9: Hi again Mark........I suggested that, not to be trite, but to be helpful. I am sorry but I am the least of the UR defenders on here; I only know what HE gave me about it, and it is admittedly small compared to many of the others on here. Hopefully, one of them will help you with your questions. I hope you are blessed during your sojourn here on Tent. Come with an open heart to receive from Him; leave (or hopefully stay) with an "ark" full of treasure. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

markp64

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Re: So What........
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2009, 03:05:32 AM »
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Don't look to men, look to Him.

So asking a question on a forum that deals with questions and answers is inappropriate here. Hmmmmmmmm?

I have read many of the posts here and there are thousands of questions and answers concerning UR and other topics. I'm sorry. I guess I registered to the wrong forum. I'll try somewhere else.

Quote
Perhaps, that's why your struggling for truth.

No struggle here friend. However, even if there was a struggle, nothing to worry about. I'm still going to heaven no matter what! Whew!

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: So What........
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2009, 03:10:13 AM »
Mark, the book is a dead letter to the carnal mind.
                                                                       But, the scriptures are not static.
                                                                                                                       They are the Living Word of God to a faithful spirit.


markp64

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Re: So What........
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2009, 03:15:53 AM »
Quote
It's about love.......
.....Love eternal is love reciprocal.

Only one attribute of God. I'm just curious. I searched the NKJV for the word wrath or chêmâh in Hebrew and it appears in 193 versus throughout the bible.

Judgment or shepheṭ  shâphaṭ  mishpâṭ  etc.186 times

Could someone explain this to me? Thanks

Offline sparrow

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Re: So What........
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2009, 03:16:44 AM »
Hi Mark,
I will try to answer your questions as best as I can (from my little path over here) a little later tonight...
hang in there,
thanks,
sparrow
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline willieH

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Re: So What........
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2009, 03:17:58 AM »
willieH: Hi Mark... :welcome:

Have you really STUDIED Hell?  I mean, ...REALLY studied it?  I would be happy to discuss this fallacy with you...  :laughing7:

I have been studying UR for quite some time now, thank you.

Concerning "UR"... It remains to be seen what you "know" about UR, thank you...  :winkgrin:

Studying something does not gurantee you will see what is said... The JEWS have had the Old Testatment for many, many centuries, and the OLD TESTAMENT Scriptures are  THEY which testify of JESUS, but do they SEE Him in these Scriptures?  :dontknow:

Of course they DO NOT!  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

markp64

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Re: So What........
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2009, 03:18:56 AM »
Quote
Mark, the book is a dead letter to the carnal mind.
                                                                       But, the scriptures are not static.
                                                                                                                       They are the Living Word of God to a faithful spirit.

What does this have to do with the specific questions I ask?

So far, nobody has answered even one question for me. I do notice however, when a fellow UR poster has a question, boy oh boy, the troops rally together and flood the chap with answers. I am patient.

markp64

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Re: So What........
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2009, 03:20:00 AM »
Quote
I will try to answer your questions as best as I can (from my little path over here) a little later tonight...
hang in there,
thanks,
sparrow

Thanks sparrow

Offline onlytruth

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Re: So What........
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2009, 03:35:55 AM »
hi mark...have you been judged by someone,or feel you will be judged for something.To me it seems like you want to know the consequences to some actions?
 Regardless,God will use them for good...blessings :icon_king:

Offline willieH

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Re: So What........
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2009, 03:46:11 AM »
First, I have to admit that I believe in Hell. I know I know you say that hell doesn't exist (I don't believe this but for the sake of argument I concede).

You "believe" in hell, but concede that it doesn't exist?  So you believe in something that doesn't "exist" for the "sake of arguement"?   No offense bro, but what kind of double talk is this?  :dontknow:

Quote
Here is the dilemma. If ALL go to heaven, then why does any of this matter?


The same can be asked if FEW go to heaven... why does "any of this" matter if only FEW go to heaven?  What relevance has the number?

If ALL go to Heaven, then this seems to be the accomlishment of COMPLETE and PERFECT plan, to me... If FEW go... it appears that the "plan" wasn't a very good one...

Remember, "God SO LOVED ...the WORLD... Mark...  :laughing7:

Quote
Why believe in Jesus and follow Him if ultimately ALL go to heaven?


Now we get down to it brother Mark... You have established your "motive"... for you are following JESUS to "get to heaven"... 

As for me, ...I follow Him to PLEASE Him and to SERVE Him and thereby my brothers and sisters (one of which is YOU)... whatever results from that is okay with me, for ,my LOVE for Him, is why I follow Him, not to "gain" anything.

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I was a former athiest, I could have continued in my sin (which at the time was a blast, no guilt) and all would have been good. I die, get chastised, go to heaven. Sign me up!


You have missed the point totally and seem to know little of what the Scriptures teach bro... as you SOW to the FLESH, of the FLESH shall you REAP... as you SOW to the SPIRIT, of the SPIRIT shall you REAP...

In other words... continuing in misbehavior only returns to you by judgment brought against the FLESH -- Rom 1:18 -- the WRATH of GOD ...IS... revealed (not will be)

Quote
As a christian, why couldn't I just NOT follow Jesus and continue to lie, steal, covet, lust, hate, etc. None of that would matter because, in the end, I get to go to heaven!

More unspiritual observation... wreckless and antagonistic in intent... :rolleye:

Do you think you can SIN WRECKLESSLY and that God (even though He shall save you), will not bring your behavior to LIGHT?  Your proposition is criminal...

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By the way, what kind of punishment will be doled out to me when I die.

NONE... you will get ALL that is coming to you in the HERE and NOW (which includes the LAST DAY and RESURRECTION)... so why not get drunk tonight -- eh?  :Party:

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Also, who gets punished? My sins have been washed away by the blood of Jesus. Jesus said go and sin no more. Will I still be punished if I sin no more.


Whatever you have done will be dealt with bro... have ten more beers... and why not rob a bank?  Get real!

Fear of "HELL" is not what keeps you in the fold... GAIN is your motive for belief...

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Will I be punished for my past sins but not my future sins? (assuming I don't sin any longer)

You seem to be worried about punishment... If your heart was right, there would be no cause to worry -- eh?  :dontknow:

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If your theology of no hell is correct than we have nothing to worry about or fear.


Like I said in the other post, I would be happy to debate this subject with you, its one of my favorite fallacies to debunk, it is so empty of valid foundation in the WORD...  :laughing7:

How many of GOD's Apostles taught it Mark?  List me the MANY Scriptures you must have which note HELL and warning OF IT...  Also while you're at it... where is JESUS COMMAND to teach it, found? :dunno:

Quote
All will be taken care of. We will ALL be reconciled to God in the end. Again, why tell people about Jesus and why they need Him if even as an Athiest, Buddhist, Scientologist, Satanist etc. we ALL get to go to heaven for eternity. Seems to me that if this is true I'll easily take a little bit of chastisement for everlasting life.

If you were truly called, you would not be about the NEGATIVE mindset you are in... You would be preaching the LOVE and PEACE of the GOSPEL (which IS PEACE -- Rom 10:15)... and LOVE casts OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:18

It remains to be seen, what you "know" about that GOSPEL...  :dontknow:

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Please, if someone wants the challenge, supply the "proof texts" for Salvation AFTER death in CONTEXT please.

Where is the Biblical directive for CONTEXT, Mark?  If you can show me one, than I will confine my words to CONTEXT (which can easily be done)...

THEOLOGY and THEOLOGIANS require that the WORD of GOD which is FREE, be CONFINED in their imprisonments... :rolleye:

Quote
This appears to me to be easy believism.

with respect,
Thanks

What is wrong with EASY Mark?  The TESTIMONY of YHVH is sure making WISE, the SIMPLE -- Psalms  19:7

It is BABYLONIAN theology that clouds the TRUTH with its various UNBIBLICAL  CONFUSIONS... and COMPLICATIONS...

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline claypot

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Re: So What........
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2009, 03:57:56 AM »
I was really hoping for a real response other than God is love. First, that is only one attribute of God. You failed to answer ANY of my questions. I really am looking for an honest real response. I hope someone on this forum could do this.

Quote
It's about love.
If you could injure me, as often as you like, knowing that I will and would always forgive you; How long would you continue to hit me with that hammer?
Love eternal is love reciprocal.

If I was sadistic, I could continue until whenever I felt satisfied or until you died whichever came first. Your forgiveness would have no bearing on my sadistic nature, in this case. And anyway, according to UR, in the end I would still end up in heaven!



I don't see that Love is an 'attribute' of God, I see it as God IS Love.

cp
For it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

markp64

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Re: So What........
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2009, 03:58:08 AM »
Quote
You "believe" in hell, but concede that it doesn't exist?  So you believe in something that doesn't "exist" for the "sake of arguement"?   No offense bro, but what kind of double talk is this? 

Another one of you guys who don't want to or with all due respect, can't answer my question.

I only conceded about hell for the sake of THIS argument so that i would hopefully get some of my questions answered.

Quote
Do you think you can SIN WRECKLESSLY and that God (even though He shall save you), will not bring your behavior to LIGHT?  Your proposition is criminal...

So what! I end up in heaven

Quote
The same can be asked if FEW go to heaven... why does "any of this" matter if only FEW go to heaven?  What relevance has the number?

If ALL go to Heaven, then this seems to be the accomlishment of COMPLETE and PERFECT plan, to me... If FEW go... it appears that the "plan" wasn't a very good one...

Remember, "God SO LOVED ...the WORLD... Mark...

So pathetically weak. This verse is what all of the UR crowd use to support their theology.

Quote
You have missed the point totally and seem to know little of what the Scriptures teach bro... as you SOW to the FLESH, of the FLESH shall you REAP... as you SOW to the SPIRIT, of the SPIRIT shall you REAP...

In other words... continuing in misbehavior only returns to you by judgment brought against the FLESH -- Rom 1:18 -- the WRATH of GOD ...IS... revealed (not will be)

The WRATH of God. So funny bro. So what! I'll get some wrath then eternal life.

It has nothing to do with motives. Whether my motives be good, bad or indifferent, I still get into heaven.

Not one person who has posted has supplied one single answer to my questions. I was really hoping for some real honest SPECIFIC answers to what I posted.

I know God is love............now let's move on.






Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: So What........
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2009, 03:58:31 AM »
Mark,
I am encouraging you to have a living relationship with your Father, through Christ.
Spend time with Him, follow on to KNOW the Lord; Personally, not through other men.
Why ask us, when you can ask Him?
And, then, please share the gifts of His Spirit with your brethren.

markp64

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Re: So What........
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2009, 04:03:53 AM »
Quote
I don't see that Love is an 'attribute' of God, I see it as God IS Love.

Whether you see it or don't see it does not make it so. Yeah God is Love. He is also

Angry
Wrathful
Righteous
Jealous
Holy

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: So What........
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2009, 04:06:55 AM »
Still sowin' that field, are 'ya Mark?

markp64

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Re: So What........
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2009, 04:09:36 AM »
Quote
Mark,
I am encouraging you to have a living relationship with your Father, through Christ.
Spend time with Him, follow on to KNOW the Lord; Personally, not through other men.
Why ask us, when you can ask Him?
And, then, please share the gifts of His Spirit with your brethren.

I have a loving, personal relationship with Christ our Lord, my Saviour.

Still no answer to my question. Sad brother. I hope that you can come to the truth one day. Trust in Christ to open your mind and your heart to the truth. I will pray for you for discernment so that you will receive from the Holy Spirit those things that are true.

God Bless