Author Topic: So What Happens to This Man?  (Read 4797 times)

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Offline jabcat

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So What Happens to This Man?
« on: June 29, 2011, 06:56:04 AM »
He believed in God. He was a Christian Universalist.  Over the years, he was a speaker in a local congregation of believers.  He was a gifted teacher, helping lead others to belief upon Jesus as Savior.

Over time he began to develop beliefs that denied some of the essentials of the faith;  the virgin birth, the necessity of the blood of Jesus to save.  He stopped praying, stopped reading His Bible, and eventually stated he no longer believed in God.  He began to mock Christians, insult them, make crude statements and disparaging comments about God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.  In short, he has become a persecutor of the brethren and a blasphemer.

What do you make of this man?  How do you feel about a situation such as this?  Does it affect your own faith one way or another?  What does God think of this man?  How does He view him?  How does He deal with him, and how will He deal with him? 

So what happens to this man?

Online WhiteWings

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2011, 12:40:01 PM »
He gets corrected like almost everybody else. But I think his correction will be less severe than that of any/most ETs because that man only needs to be remembered of something he knows/once knew. The ETs have to learn something entirely new.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 02:06:17 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline urpilgrim

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2011, 07:04:40 PM »
He gets corrected like almost everybody else. But I think his correction will be less severe than that of any/most ETs because that man only needs to be remembered of something he knows/once knew. The ETs have to learn something entirely new.

Ditto

We are all just broken jars of clay.  I believe that our heavenly Father looks upon this brother like any father would look at their child that is suffering from a severe fever. He will carry this brother. We must not judge the brother. Pray for him, love him, be there to give a helping hand when he comes out of this fever.
If believing that God is loving enough, powerful enough, and wise enough to save ALL of His creation makes me a heretic, then sign me up!

Offline thinktank

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2011, 07:11:44 PM »
There are many scriptures, and God will have great patience and remember the works of the past. Paul said I recall you were once zealous for the gospel
repent therefore lest a worse thing come upon you.

Offline Nathan

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2011, 11:00:18 PM »
How can he be corrected more or less if breaking one law is the same as breaking all of the laws?  Where does "where sin abounds grace abounds even more . . ." come in to play in that?  Should he not be given more grace because he, in our eyes, had further to fall???

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2011, 11:07:43 PM »
How can he be corrected more or less if breaking one law is the same as breaking all of the laws?
That wouldn't be possible if the Bible actually teaches that :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Ross

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2011, 11:43:52 AM »
Is this man one of those who claims to know Christ but is actually not " In " Christ?

Many will come and say that He is the Christ, but Christ NEVER knew them.
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Online WhiteWings

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2011, 12:29:51 PM »
Is this man one of those who claims to know Christ but is actually not " In " Christ?
Don't know. But I think the main question of the OP is abaout teh change of heart of the man. (?)

Quote
Many will come and say that He is the Christ, but Christ NEVER knew them.
That statement about (former) believers of all denominations.
For me it means that Jesus never knew Christians who in all sorts of ways acted/believed contrary to His teachings.
- Eternal hell.
- All people get judged the same.
- Love your neighbor (if from the same denomination)
- Use Christianity as leverage for political goals.
- Etc
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2011, 03:50:19 PM »
 those to whom Jesus says,I never knew you...are the stranger......if Jesus never knew them..they never knew Jesus either.Oneness/intimacy..requires a 'knowing'

  but another thing..Jesus is Lord of the dead and the living....dead branches in the vine are pruned here on earth..and found alive in heaven[prodigal that

  was dead declared alive by Father,with rejoicing]. All mankind,dead branches as well as live and/or fruit bearing are in deVine/Christ.Father does'prune' the dead

  branches..just as an axe is at the tree. Fostering spiritual growth in this earth..is Father's business....He will remove you from this earth..when spiritual

  advancement doesn't come.....and finish your training in heaven [if need be]

    Unregenerated Adam is pruned so that the new man[sprout] in Christ may come forth and bear fruit[SOS 6;11]  Christ inspecting spiritual growth


Offline jabcat

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2011, 07:55:35 PM »
Is this man one of those who claims to know Christ but is actually not " In " Christ?

Many will come and say that He is the Christ, but Christ NEVER knew them.

That's what I was wondering after I posted this.  Maybe he only stated a sort of faith, but was never truly spiritually reborn.  Not for me to say, but it's apparently possible to be the case for some.

Offline Ross

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2011, 12:11:01 AM »
That seems to be the case. Seems to be what Christ says to Nicodemus about being born again or you will Never see the kingdom. We don't get any say in our physical birth or upbringing either.
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Offline lomarah

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2011, 02:14:41 AM »
those to whom Jesus says,I never knew you...are the stranger......if Jesus never knew them..they never knew Jesus either.Oneness/intimacy..requires a 'knowing'

  but another thing..Jesus is Lord of the dead and the living....dead branches in the vine are pruned here on earth..and found alive in heaven[prodigal that

  was dead declared alive by Father,with rejoicing]. All mankind,dead branches as well as live and/or fruit bearing are in deVine/Christ.Father does'prune' the dead

  branches..just as an axe is at the tree. Fostering spiritual growth in this earth..is Father's business....He will remove you from this earth..when spiritual

  advancement doesn't come.....and finish your training in heaven [if need be]

    Unregenerated Adam is pruned so that the new man[sprout] in Christ may come forth and bear fruit[SOS 6;11]  Christ inspecting spiritual growth

Wow thanks Sheila, now I understand the axe at the root of the tree!  :cloud9:
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Online WhiteWings

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2011, 07:40:24 AM »
Is this man one of those who claims to know Christ but is actually not " In " Christ?

Many will come and say that He is the Christ, but Christ NEVER knew them.

That's what I was wondering after I posted this.  Maybe he only stated a sort of faith, but was never truly spiritually reborn.  Not for me to say, but it's apparently possible to be the case for some.
Going back to the OP.
Say that man was very much in Christ and then 'fell away'.
In that case Jesus can't say 'NEVER' at best 'CURRENTLY'.
It's one of those verses of which I think is translated wrong.
If the verse would read "you never knew me" I would understand.
But now basicly the verse states that all knowing Jesus doesn't know of 90% of humanity....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline lomarah

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2011, 09:51:11 PM »
Is this man one of those who claims to know Christ but is actually not " In " Christ?

Many will come and say that He is the Christ, but Christ NEVER knew them.

That's what I was wondering after I posted this.  Maybe he only stated a sort of faith, but was never truly spiritually reborn.  Not for me to say, but it's apparently possible to be the case for some.
Going back to the OP.
Say that man was very much in Christ and then 'fell away'.
In that case Jesus can't say 'NEVER' at best 'CURRENTLY'.
It's one of those verses of which I think is translated wrong.
If the verse would read "you never knew me" I would understand.
But now basicly the verse states that all knowing Jesus doesn't know of 90% of humanity....

I think when He says He never knew them it's more of an intimate knowing, a relationship, like when Adam "knew" Eve. I could be wrong, that's just my present understanding.
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline Nathan

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2011, 11:24:50 PM »
I agree, I see the "I never knew you" to be a spiritual intimatacy of knowing.  If you keep that passage in context, you see that these guys who were complaining were measuring their relationship according to their ministries.  "We cast out demons in your name, we did this, we did that . . ."  There was no "knowing" all it was about was, "doing".  Their identity was not in an intimate relationship with Christ, it was instead in the manifestations of Christ's power.  Remember the passage where the disciples were bewildered at the fact that even demons respond to them now . . .and Jesus brushed that off and turned the focus back to their identies, their names that were written in heaven were more important than his power in them casting out demons.  My identity isn't in what I do, it's in who I am.  Who I am is what governs what I do.  Not the other way around.  In other words, my identity doesn't derive from my actions, but from my position.  And my position doesn't derive from my actions either in that I didn't "earn" to be who I am.  My position is what it is because of who He's called me to be.  Without having an intimate relationship with Him, I would never be able to see what my position, or my identity was.

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2011, 10:35:06 AM »
I agree, I see the "I never knew you" to be a spiritual intimatacy of knowing.  If you keep that passage in context, you see that these guys who were complaining were measuring their relationship according to their ministries.  "We cast out demons in your name, we did this, we did that . . ."  There was no "knowing" all it was about was, "doing".  Their identity was not in an intimate relationship with Christ, it was instead in the manifestations of Christ's power.  Remember the passage where the disciples were bewildered at the fact that even demons respond to them now . . .and Jesus brushed that off and turned the focus back to their identies, their names that were written in heaven were more important than his power in them casting out demons.  My identity isn't in what I do, it's in who I am.  Who I am is what governs what I do.  Not the other way around.  In other words, my identity doesn't derive from my actions, but from my position.  And my position doesn't derive from my actions either in that I didn't "earn" to be who I am.  My position is what it is because of who He's called me to be.  Without having an intimate relationship with Him, I would never be able to see what my position, or my identity was.

You are speaking about humans with all sort of flaws. I agree with your view about humans.
But that's not what that verse is about.
"I never knew you" --> "I" is Jesus not that flawed human.
Ok, perhaps it was a one way relationship. But then the correct words would have been "YOU never knew ME" because surely Jesus knows the mind of that person.

What about this verse? "I knew you before you were born"
That seems a one way "knowing". Unborn persons have no relationships.
Ok, it could be about a future relationship. But everybody will have that relationship when God is all in all.
 :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2011, 03:27:18 PM »
 some great insights,guys...

   what I get out of it.....these weren't called of God...but of 'satan' transforming himself into angel of light'..not of the 'spirit' of Christ..most likely

  lying signs..to mislead...'I know my sheep..and my sheep listen to my voice] Babylon religious spirit that fornicates with 'kings of the earth" that

  receive their kingdom from satan, for one act of worship....the liar and murderer spirit

Offline thinktank

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2011, 10:38:27 PM »
Is this man one of those who claims to know Christ but is actually not " In " Christ?

Many will come and say that He is the Christ, but Christ NEVER knew them.

That's what I was wondering after I posted this.  Maybe he only stated a sort of faith, but was never truly spiritually reborn.  Not for me to say, but it's apparently possible to be the case for some.
Going back to the OP.
Say that man was very much in Christ and then 'fell away'.
In that case Jesus can't say 'NEVER' at best 'CURRENTLY'.
It's one of those verses of which I think is translated wrong.
If the verse would read "you never knew me" I would understand.
But now basicly the verse states that all knowing Jesus doesn't know of 90% of humanity....

I see that problem too. If a believer gets to know God then falls away, then christ should say I once knew you, but now depart because ye work iniquity. But he says I never knew you.

So either translated incorrectly or that simply these believers only Honor God with their lips, but their heart is far from God. They did not have the Spirit of God within them.




Offline micah7:9

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2011, 01:29:20 AM »
"What does God think of this man?  How does He view him?  How does He deal with him, and how will He deal with him? " Jabcat

Jer 18:3  So I went down, to the house of the potter,—and there he was! making a piece of work on the wheels,
Jer 18:4  Then was marred, the vessel that he was making, while yet it was clay in the hand of the potter,—so he turned and made of it another vessel, as seemed right in the eyes of the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5  Then came the word of Yahweh unto me, saying:
Jer 18:6  Like this potter, can I not deal with you O house of Israel? Demandeth Yahweh: Lo! as clay in the hand of the potter, So, are, ye, in my hand O house of Israel.

He deals with us all the same, arent we ALL in the process of being saved(healed?)  :HeartThrob: :bigGrin:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Ross

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2011, 03:12:56 PM »
Amen! We are all in the process, just a different rates as we are all individuals.

Eph 3;11-16 " And He gave some to be apostles, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers- with a view to the fitting of the saints for the work of ministering, for a building-up of the body of the Christ; until we all advance into the oneness of the faith and the PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE of the Son Of God, into a man of full-growth, into the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ; that we may no longer be infants in the craft of men, in knavery suited to the artifice of error, billow-tossed and shifted around with every wind of teaching; but pursuing truth may grow into Him who is the head in ALL things- Christ. Out of whom ALL the body secures the growing of the body into a building-up of itself into love, fitly framing itself together and connecting itself through means of every joint of supply by way of energising each single part in the measure."
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Offline redhotmagma

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2011, 03:21:48 PM »
I love the word knavery...carry on

Ross what version is that?

Offline Ross

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2011, 09:15:42 AM »
That is the Rotherham version.
Knavery is scoundrel behavior according to the dictionary.
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Offline eaglesway

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2011, 01:03:35 AM »
I think their are those who he "never knew" who are in darkness

I also think their are those he "knew very well" who returned to darkness

This why we watch, and remain sober for the purpose of prayer, and exhort one another while it is still called today to love and good works, and warn one another against complacency for our adversary roams about like a lion seeking whom he may devour

Heb 10:35-39  Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.  (36)  For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.  (37)  FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.  (38)  BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.  (39)  But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
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Offline jabcat

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2011, 07:14:39 AM »
That is for sure an interesting scripture.  I'm going to have to dwell on it some more.

If that verse is talking about our salvation or the final state of the believer, then it seems to me it's saying we're saved (kept saved) by works - which IMO, cannot be.    Paul talked about that elsewhere, when he addressed beginning by grace then attempting to continue by Law (works).  He said we can't count on that, and he called that having fallen from grace, i.e., not trusting in Christ's full atonement, but in our own abilities to perform.  Seems to me we can't be saved by grace then kept by doing the right works/not doing the wrong works. 

So some questions I toss out;  is it about something such as position and rewards?   I.e., having to do with "few stripes or many stripes"?  And then further, can a spiritually reborn son still have to face even 1 stripe "on the other side"?  More specifically, will absolutely everyone still have some cleansing to be done after resurrection, and if everyone's going to get purged post-death, then where does that place the idea of being spiritually re-born in the first place?  Isn't such a doctrine just saying 'some are just a little better off than the rest, but all still have the purging fire to face the other side of the grave anyway'?   

I believe the ecclesia are spiritually reborn now, and God ensures their perseverance.  Grace not works.  Position and rewards are a matter of obedience, yielding our will to Him and "following Him closely" rather than being disobedient re-born sons.  And I believe disobedient re-born sons are treated as family - disciplined by Father to maintain closeness, rather than being tossed out as a bastard child.

So this Hebrews verse, standing alone obviously doesn't fit with the many other verses that IMO, support the above position.  So it makes me curious about the context, how it reconciles with so many others that say it's not about our efforts but about His calling, electing, ensuring/completing.  Also, the word "destruction" is used, which many (I) believe has to do with destruction of works not of God, those that cannot stand the basanizo (testing for purity), not being "unsaved".   (Two things I found so far, part of that text is a quote from Habakkuk, and at least a piece of it has also s/w inexplicably been translated from the Septuagint.  I'm not smart enough to know what all that means   :mblush:, but it does stick out as perhaps important.  Also, "for yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come" sounds interesting.  A little while?  When was Hebrews written?  Prior to 70 AD, or after?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 07:34:57 AM by jabcat »

Offline jabcat

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Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2011, 08:50:14 AM »
I believe the ecclesia are spiritually reborn now, and God ensures their perseverance.  Grace not works.  Position and rewards are a matter of obedience, yielding our will to Him and "following Him closely" rather than being disobedient re-born sons.  And I believe disobedient re-born sons are treated as family - disciplined by Father to maintain closeness, rather than being tossed out as a bastard child.

So this Hebrews verse, standing alone obviously doesn't fit with the many other verses that IMO, support the above position.  So it makes me curious about the context, how it reconciles with so many others that say it's not about our efforts but about His calling, electing, ensuring/completing. 

Surely Paul's message to us, the nations is not "you're saved by grace not works, it's a gift.  But then it's up to you after that to keep yourself saved".   Hmm...some things to think and pray about here.  (For the record, I do believe in obedience.)  Ya'll have a great weekend.   :bigGrin: