Sheep and Goats

[jabcat]

Our dear brother J. Preston Eby shares some remarkable insight into an important piece of scripture (that IMO,as we do with many of the words of Jesus) have been misunderstood and mis-applied.  I believe that's how much of the ET doctrine is built, i.e, "Jesus said more about hell than He did about Heaven", etc., when Jesus was actually often discussing natural Israel, the impending loss of their privilege, and the coming in of the Gentiles - the nations - us.  How we were to become sons through His death, blood, and resurrection...the cross and the empty grave! 

For instance, Gehenna (ET's 'hell') was actually used in 70 A.D., in which to throw the bodies of the Jewish priesthood, where they were burned in the unquenced fire (until it had served its purpose);  where the worms died not (they lived by eating the corpses), and there was spiritual (and possibly literal) gnashing of teeth.  Also, the rich man and Lazarus; the rich man representing the Jewish priesthood (dressed in purple) who had brothers (the other tribes), and Lazarus representing the nations (the dogs) that were about to be adopted.  http://www.godfire.net/eby/abrahams.html

I had been to a recent orthodox Bible study in which many of these verses were all mixed in together to attempt to prove points about hell and ET that IMO, were not accurate. 

I was personally wondering about the Sheep and Goats, what a good explanation of that might be.  I found this from Brother Eby.  The paragraph just prior to this one was about the misapplications he has apparently heard of this passage, often by preachers during fundraising efforts, etc.  Brother Eby says we should give and help the less fortunate, but that the usual usage of this passage is not the correct one.  So he says,

"The remarkable words of Jesus are' "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of one of these' my brethren' ye have done it unto me." The subject is not the starving in India' the poor in Africa' the drunk in the gutter' or any other sinner in the world. The subject is the LORD'S BRETHREN. These brethren of the Lord are members of the Christ-body' kings and priests in His Kingdom' participators in the government of God. That is the issue. It,s about how the people of the nations act in respect to the Lord's brethren' not how Christians act in respect to the needy in the nations! The preachers' as usual, have it backwards. "And before Him shall be gathered all NATIONS: and He shall separate them (the nations) one from another' as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats." The nations who respect' assist' bless and minister to the Lord's brethren in the Kingdom are set at the right hand of the King to receive the blessings and benefits of the Kingdom of God. Those who hate' mock' resist' persecute or ignore the Lord's brethren are set at the left hand of the King to receive the purification of judgmental fire. The way the nations will be dealt with relates precisely to their response to the sons of God, the "least" of His brethren, the "little child" who though humble' meek' unpresuming, unpretentious, and esteemed as the least of all is, nevertheless' THE GREATEST IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD!"

I highly recommend anyone just entering into UR to scour the articles here by Brother Eby.  He was one of, if not the very first person God led me to when He began to show me UR.  IMO, many of us that have been in UR for awhile could still use a good dose as well, as Brother Eby is much farther down the road in this than most of us are.  I believe he's believed UR, studied it, taught it, for 30+ years.  http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html

God's blessing, James.

[martincisneros]

"Jesus said more about hell than He did about Heaven"

John Hagee may have unwittingly converted me to UR.  I'm not sure if I've ever told that story here, and it's as plain as the noon sun right now to my thinking.  This was years prior to my having gotten my hands on "The One Purpose of God: An Answer To The Doctrine Of Eternal Punishment" by Jan Bonda, which as I said is the UR commentary on Romans by a Dutch Reformed Pastor that brought me into UR fully with a Scriptural understanding.

But this was mid-1990s or so.  Two John Hagee instances in particular:

Once, as you said, he brought up the "Jesus said more about Hell than about heaven!!"  So, I picked up my Strong's Concordance for a brief glance, thinking that if that was so, then I needed to emphasize Hell more in my Word of Faith message that I was sharing everywhere God gave me an opening to do so.  Those of you that have been in UR for a while already know what I found, without any kind of study, but just a quick glance.  The "Hell" references, even in the KJV, WEREN'T THERE in this totally overwhelming larger number than references to heaven.  Tiny little list of Hell references, by comparison with column after column of heaven references!  Again, even in a KJV.

And then John Hagee was mouthing off on another occasion about C.S. Lewis having been a Universalist.  I'd never heard the word before.  Wasn't even aware of the UUA at the time, which is totally irrelevant other than as a historical reference.  I'd never heard of any of it.  Happened to pick up a dictionary and looked up the word "Universalist" and it said something to the effect of "someone that believes that the atoning work of Christ applies to all men everywhere."  I closed my dictionary nonchalantly and said "I'm a Universalist then."

Remembering that Jesus said you'd have whatever you said in Mark 11:23 and innumerable other passages, it's pretty obvious to me that that was one of those things that set in motion my coming into UR.  There were other things that I said in the earlier 90s about my knowing in this life what all believers would know a thousand years from now, that likely have a baring as further watering, or perhaps the initial seed that our dearest Brother Hagee watered a year or two later in his brilliant observations on Hell and claims that C.S. Lewis was a Universalist -- probably on nothing more than C.S. Lewis's deep admiration and discipleship to the writings of George MacDonald, though I don't think that C.S. Lewis ever got past the free will issue on human destiny but merely entertained UR as a hope, and he liked the company of Universalists.

[jabcat]

LOL  .  "works all things for good to those..."  Now I know who you're talking about when you allude to your mentor...why it's John Hagee!

[martincisneros]

Now I know who you're talking about when you allude to your mentor...why it's John Hagee!

Uh.....NO!!!!!!!

[jabcat]

Here at work, literally, truly LOL on that one.  Seriously, God can and does use many things, often unexpected things, to show us His will and work things for our good.  He is good.

[sven]

it's interesting that Jesus said sheep and goats, as far as I know goats are clean animals also? sheep and dogs, or even sheep and wolves would have been a sharper contrast, don't know if dogs or wolves are unclean.

[Mr.Irrelevant]

it's interesting that Jesus said sheep and goats, as far as I know goats are clean animals also? sheep and dogs, or even sheep and wolves would have been a sharper contrast, don't know if dogs or wolves are unclean.

I think we often try to read to much into the parables.  To paraphrase Sigmund Freud, sometimes a goat is just a goat.

By the way that's not intended as a shot at you sven - just a general observation.

[WhiteWings]

But the goats get a different treatment than the sheep.
So this verse is telling us something.


Sven,
Maybe the contrast between sheep and wolves isn't used because the difference isn't that use.
If God wanted to show use contrast there are, as you say, many other animals to use in this verse.

to receive the purification of judgmental fire

Not saying it sounds like something nice and funny but it doesn't sound very hash (or torture either)
So perhaps (guesswork) it means:
As you see the animals are very much alike. Same for the judgement.
So:
Sheep is almost the same as a goat.
Therefore
Sheep=no judgement  vs Goat=little judgement

Just a thought.

[Livelystone]

Greetings

Goats are stubborn critters often preferring the company of horses...... something God's children were told not to desire after.

They are intelligent but they resist the hand seeks to guide them preferring to do things their way

On the other hand sheep follow their masters voice and lay down for others as he has done for us. IMO they are the ones who forgive others and become as Jesus was when he walked on earth. Rather than judge through good and evil those who persecute them they suffer the loss and then appear before God on behalf of those who have sinned against them.

Having yielded to the lion they have become like lambs

Blessings

Doug

[WhiteWings]

Goats are stubborn critters

On the other sheep follow their masters

That makes perfect sense to me!

But I need some help with:

Rather than judge through good and evil those who persecute them they suffer the loss and then appear before God on behalf of those who have sinned against them.

Someone is judged for the sins of someone els committed?

[jabcat]

WW, does J. Preston's point about this being national judgments help or shed any light on this in any way?  As in my OP, maybe we make this sometimes mean things it doesn't actually mean?, i.e., strictly individual judgments...maybe in God's Big Plan, folks are sort of lumped into groups nationally in this specific judgment somehow  ?

[Livelystone]

Goats are stubborn critters

On the other sheep follow their masters

That makes perfect sense to me!

But I need some help with:

Rather than judge through good and evil those who persecute them they suffer the loss and then appear before God on behalf of those who have sinned against them.

Someone is judged for the sins of someone els committed?

What I am saying regarding appearing before God on the behalf of those who have sinned against us is not for us to be judged for it but rather than us judge them through our understanding of good and evil is for us to stand in for them by loosening them on earth from lawful judgement so that because of our appearing in prayer before God on their behalf consequently they are loosed in heaven from condemnation allowing God to call them to salvation rather than judgement.

If we suffer the loss rather than seek retribution then we will suffer with the sinner but then rather than pass unto righteousness by ourselves we will bring them with us even though they may not come into righteousness until a later date........ basically speaking we are doing again for them what Christ did for us but with His Holy Blood rather than our own that is not.

I believe this to be the high calling of Christ in us........ not for our benefit but for it to be for the benefit of others and in particular those who sin against us.

Hope I explained that rather than just make it more confusing than before.

I have a writing written by a woman named Peggy that concerns forgiving others that I will post....... I think she explains it very well

Blessings'

Doug

[sheila]

 Hi Doug,

   I really enjoyed that article by Peggy on the gift of

  woundedness, it was very timely for me.

                           Thanks,Sheila