Author Topic: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)  (Read 5498 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« on: September 23, 2012, 02:28:59 PM »
(Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The above verse is often used as proof that each and every indivual on earth has/had lots of chances to start believing in God before they die and get their rightfully deserved eternity in hell.

Who is "they"? Are they pagans, atheists, people of the wrong denomination, etc?
Nope, they refers to ET scholars.


(Rom 1:21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(Rom 1:25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

The red part is the key. They are people who knew about the God of Abraham. Christians and Jews. Not pagans etc. Yeah, many muslims have heard about Father and Son but I think that's not 'knew God'.
'Knew' is a much deeper level than having heard something about a person.



(Rom 1:18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
(Rom 1:19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it to them.
(Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(Rom 1:21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(Rom 1:22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
(Rom 1:23) And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
(Rom 1:24) Why God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
(Rom 1:25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
(Rom 1:26) For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:



« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 05:20:04 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: Romans 1:20
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2012, 05:00:44 PM »
hey WW,  I beleive that is bearing wittness to tokogae...only God is 'good'  and changing His image over into evil=man bearing the

  image of the corruptible about'man of sin' that sits on the throne of God and exalts himself.   Jesus called the Pharisees and sadducees

  offspring of vipers that sit on the seat of Moses...judging unrighteously[incorruptible God changed into corrupt image.]

  bearing false wittness[good-for-nothing men used as false accusors] when they put an innocent man to death.[even secular

  authorities realized there was nothing in Jesus worthy of death]

   but God used evil for the good of all that love God....

   these are those who...if a son ask for a fish..hand him a serpent........ultimately they are satan the wicked one and his works

  that remade fallen Adam into the corruptible image...liars and murders from the beginning

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2012, 07:17:13 PM »
I agree "they" refers to ET Scholars...

as well as to the thousands of "religious scholars" BEFORE them

and to the thousands of "religious scholars" AFTER them...

It seems to me that Paul was referring to Adam... who was the first to "see the things that are made"    ("... from the creation of the world...")   the Greek word translated as "they" is more often translated as "him"

Rom 1:22  Professing to be wise, they became fools.    It seems to me that's what Adam did by eating the fruit...  he hearkened to the voice of his wife (Gen 3:17)   ... and well you know the rest of that story...








Offline sheila

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2012, 08:06:21 PM »
 :dontknow:  maybe Adam was blind as well as naked in the garden?.it took the serpent to make Eve 'see" that the fruit of the tree was

  good for making one wise[blind guide] leading to 'dead end"?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2012, 08:50:25 PM »
Yeah, see.

Things get complicated. See was always so obvious. Until the OP.
The OP is eay to understand; the real problem is to determine when 'see' is (also) symblic/spiritual.
Surely both have seen the tree before. Maybe it carried fruit for the first time?

A while ago I've read an article about  the "fact" that Adam and Eve both kept their own part of the garden.
Mount Olives and Temple mount. Can't remember much about. Jewish fable? OTOH is may have deeper meaning.
IF the story is true I think Eve kept Mount Olives.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2012, 09:34:18 PM »
  maybe Adam's 'first" wife[wife of the flesh was spiritually blind  Leah]  maybe Eve's first husband[Adam's flesh/blind pahrisee's because yousay you see] was blind.

  the scriptures are full of  things like..the older will serve the younger..your first father sinned against me/..etc........all with the image of the corruptible..

  and image of incorruptible.  just throwing out thoughts!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2012, 09:59:19 PM »
I'm trying to catch them, but you throw to high :boydance:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2012, 10:28:04 AM »
(Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The above verse is often used as proof that each and every indivual on earth has/had lots of chances to start believing in God before they die and get their rightfully deserved eternity in hell.

Who is "they"? Are they pagans, atheists, people of the wrong denomination, etc?
Nope, they refers to ET scholars.




(Rom 1:21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(Rom 1:25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

The red part is the key. They are people who knew about the God of Abraham. Christians and Jews. Not pagans etc. Yeah, many muslims have heard about Father and Son but I think that's not 'knew God'.
'Knew' is a much deeper level than having heard something about a person.



(Rom 1:18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
(Rom 1:19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it to them.
(Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(Rom 1:21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(Rom 1:22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
(Rom 1:23) And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
(Rom 1:24) Why God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
(Rom 1:25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
(Rom 1:26) For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Not necessarily so, notice "From the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made"... this includes, at least possibly, the inhabitants of earth before the flood of Noah from Adam to Noah. We do not really know how God related to men in those days, but we know their wickedness was great, both in violence and perversity.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 10:38:16 AM by eaglesway »
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Offline eaglesway

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2012, 11:02:08 AM »
For as I passed along and carefully observed your objects of worship, I came also upon an altar with this inscription, To the unknown god. Now what you are already worshiping as unknown, this I set forth to you.
The God Who produced and formed the world and all things in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade shrines.
Neither is He served by human hands, as though He lacked anything, for it is He Himself Who gives life and breath and all things to all [people].
And He made from one [common origin, one source, one blood] all nations of men to settle on the face of the earth, having definitely determined [their] allotted periods of time and the fixed boundaries of their habitation (their settlements, lands, and abodes),
So that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after Him and find Him, although He is not far from each one of us.
For in Him we live and move and have our being; as even some of your [own] poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
Since then we are God's offspring, we ought not to suppose that Deity (the Godhead) is like gold or silver or stone, [of the nature of] a representation by human art and imagination, or anything constructed or invented.every
Such [former] ages of ignorance God, it is true, ignored and allowed to pass unnoticed; but now He charges all people where to repent (to change their minds for the better and heartily to amend their ways, with abhorrence of their past sins),
Because He has fixed a day when He will judge the world righteously (justly) by a Man Whom He has destined and appointed for that task, and He has made this credible and given conviction and assurance and evidence to everyone by raising Him from the dead.

(Act 17:23-31)

IMO, The people who lived, among the Gentiles, during these "former ages of ignorance", will be judged by the secrets of their hearts on that day. Will ignorance be their excuse? No there is no excuse. Jesus, the Logos, the Creator of All, is the Light that Lights EVERYMAN THAT COMES INTO THE WORLD. The divine nature is imprinted(and always has been), as the "conscience" of EVERYMAN. Jesus did not come to judge the world, but so that the world could be made whole by Him. Those who have the gospel will be judged by it as to the motivation of their WORKS and their REWARD or lack thereof. Those who had only the law will be judged by it as to the motivation of their works and their REWARD or the lack thereof. ALL THROUGHOUT ALL TIME will be judged BY THE SECRETS OF THEIR HEARTS. It is written that the law came to MAKE SIN MORE EXCEEDINGLY SINFUL, to provoke it to the surface, as a tutor to lead us to Christ. It DOES NOT SAY their was NO CONSCIOUSNESS OF SIN before the law. Indeed we know for a fact that there was CONSCIOUSNESS OF SIN from the beginning, by the actions of Adam and Eve after the fall and by the actions of Cain after he slew his brother.

So, as we continue to read the word through the prism of JUDGMENT and interpret the word "saved" as meaning deliverance from kolassis, we might be missing that save(sozo) merely means heal, make whole, deliver- and is not focused merely on the judgment.

Actually, every thing God does involves PROGRESSIVE LEVELS OF HEALING AND DELIVERANCE, the making whole of that which was once bound in futility, namely mankind. So, I think that IT WAS TOO EARLY for Paul to be speaking STRICTLY OF JEWS AND CHRISTIANS in Romans one. I think there is a broader application of the principle he was illustrating in those verses, which, in my opinion, is more about HOW God discerns the hearts than WHO FROM WHEN He judges.

That's jus my opinion, :o), Peace out





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Offline VineBranch

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2013, 07:10:00 AM »
(Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I have always thought that this referred to the Jewish Priests of the time.  They were more interested in selling their little 'thingies' and souvenirs to the people, therefore the created became more important than the creator.  Aaron's golden calf may have been the first 'created' thing the Jews as a people worshipped when they assumed God wasn't enough.

maybe Adam's 'first" wife[wife of the flesh was spiritually blind  Leah]  maybe Eve's first husband[Adam's flesh/blind pahrisee's because yousay you see] was blind.

I thought in the myth her name was Lilith.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2013, 07:55:29 AM »
Maybe they had been worshipping it all along there in Egypt, and it wasn't until they were free from Pharoah's whip that it all came out and danced.
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Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2013, 03:23:50 PM »
It wasn't made until Moses went up the mountain for 40 days
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2013, 04:30:01 PM »
they were worshipping it all along, his name was Moses.  Notice they said make us gods to go before us because this Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know where he has gone.  Then Aaron made the calf (cherub) and said these be your gods that brought you up out of egypt.  then they fashioned the cherubs on the ark and worshipped them.  The veil=flesh, the veil is woven with cherubs.  The Israelites worshipped the cherubs always, which represents hero worship, or human worship.  You were the annointed guardian cherub, refers to the high priest, aka adam/aaron.  Aaron=light bringer btw (morning star).  The Jews said "we have Abraham as our father", and they sat in the seat of Moses.  They continued to worship men and not God.  And the light bearer was thrown down, and the melchizedek priesthood took over.  One of Spirit, not built on genealogy, but on the indestructible life.  That is the worship in Spirit.

Offline sheila

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2013, 04:59:33 PM »
 :iagree: RHM    the abomination on the wing of the temple..is sin in the flesh[of covering Cherub] good/evil=two wings

  the evil spirit=abomination on wing of temple.

   the teachers of the law go about in flowing robes and take the best seats in the temple[this was a bench in front of the

  ark  with tablets of law]   lying pens of the scribes=misapplication of the law/word of testimony

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2013, 05:15:34 PM »
Maybe they had been worshipping it all along there in Egypt, and it wasn't until they were free from Pharoah's whip that it all came out and danced.

The golden calf was a god of Egypt. Thay made one, but there were others before it, and it maybe symbolized something that they wroshipped in their hearts.

God said to Pharoah, "Let my people go, that they may worship/serve me".

But a few days of waiting on God and they came up with a different plan, and a different god.
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Offline micah7:9

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2013, 08:37:02 PM »
Just a thought, could "they" be Gen. 1:26 And Elohim |said: Let Us make humanity in Our image 7and
according to Our likeness....(CLT)
be that that humanity, before the first living soul (Gen. 2:7)
Rom 1:21  because, having known God they did not glorify Him as God, nor gave thanks, but were made vain in their reasonings, and their unintelligent heart was darkened,
I must recant on this thought above and change that the "they" could possibly be the Cain lineage.
The Gen. 2:7 living soul did in a sense begin to honor God...Gen 4:26  And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

Just my thought, and I thought I'd throw it out there. :Chinscratch: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 09:15:45 PM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2013, 08:51:39 PM »
all of the gods are patterned after the cherubim IMHO (at least the "main" ones that pass from one country to the other)

In one place the face of the calf on the cherubim is called the face of a cherub.  cherub=calf (the root KRB in aramaic means to plow it is unknown in hebrew)which is why Jereboam built the two golden calves, because God dwells between the cherubim, to tell them that they didn't need to go to Jerusalem to worship God.

Also in Ezekiels vision, we see the cloud of glory that carries the son of Man upon the cherubim throne.  In Exodus there is the cloud of glory again, and we know from Paul, that the rock in that cloud is Christ.  So there is a good possibility that they would have seen a cherub of some sort bringing them up out of egypt.  Here's the big leap... could Moses and Aaron have been seen as the cherubim, with the cloud going over them? Remember they asked for gods to be fashioned because they don't know where Moses has gone.  They need a replacement. 

They made Moses their mediator, or priest between themselves and God at the fiery mount.  He had to put the veil over his face, why?  They were already prone to worshipping him.  People worship people.  They create God in their image. 
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 09:00:00 PM by redhotmagma »

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2013, 08:56:11 PM »
here's a first for me Micah -
I don't understand what point you're making
-unless you think that Chapter 2 is a different acount of creation rather than further details elaborated.
 :dontknow:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2013, 09:17:55 PM »
here's a first for me Micah -
I don't understand what point you're making
-unless you think that Chapter 2 is a different acount of creation rather than further details elaborated.
 :dontknow:

I edited my post, but yes Ded, I do understand Chap. 1 and Chap 2 to be somewhat different.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2013, 09:25:46 PM »
But do you mean loke the 4 different gospel accounts different or like
yesterday and today different? :Chinscratch:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2013, 10:08:05 PM »
I've been here before but Paul wrote 1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
I have come to understand that it was the formed living soul of Gen.2:7 is where we begin. Still just as that living soul has not been completed, the whole of what began in Gen. 1:26-27 was spoken and is still being created. Everything God created, spoke, in Genesis 1 is still on a path, like let the earth bring forth, the earth still does bring forth and man imo does not have total dominion. Anyway I understand and am quite comfortable. :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Illuin

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2013, 11:15:25 PM »
IMO, this is speaking of ALL OF US, "IN TIMES PAST." Even the Apostles, before they were faithful, "were by nature children of wrath, who denied him with an oath, and persecuted His disciples."


Matthew 26:73-74  "And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee. Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew."

Acts 9:1  And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest."

1 Timothy 1:13  "Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief."


(Saul "believed" he was doing God a service)


In time past you and I walked according to the age of this world (and still do when we backslide).

Ephesians 2:2-3  "Wherein IN TIMES PAST ye walked according to the course [Greek, aion, age] of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation IN TIMES PAST in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12  "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."


IMO, those "who believed not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness" is our 'old man' that must "DIE DAILY." They are 'you and I' (and ALL who are in Adam) who have "in times past" been sent "strong delusion and believed the lies" of Babylon.

You and I "in times past" were "that man", who was "chief of sinners... a child of God's wrath." We were all poor, miserable, wretched, blind, and naked - and were all "tares" before we were "good seed." It was all of us "in times past" who "received not the love of the truth", and who were under strong delusion.

It is within all of us, that our old man of sin, who sits on the throne of God, in the temple of God... "which temple we are", is eventually "destroyed by the brightness of His coming." We all, like Paul, "in times past" were blasphemers who, BUT by the grace and intervention of God "would not be forgiven in this age or the age to come." And we were ALL "in times past" WITHOUT EXCUSE.

Just my  :2c:
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 12:30:59 AM by Illuin »
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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2013, 09:49:47 AM »
Maybe they had been worshipping it all along there in Egypt, and it wasn't until they were free from Pharoah's whip that it all came out and danced.
I agree. The golden calf was high/supreme Egyptian godess called Hator. The exact location of Mt. Sinai is still disputed but at one possible locating archelogists found a shrine/temple dedicated to Hator.

Few pictures of Hator
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2013, 08:48:58 AM »
Sometimes the "chapters" break up things in our understanding that are continuing thoughts in the Logos(chapters are a late addition to the Bible).

Romans, chapter 1 and two must be read together to be understood as they are one continuing discourse on how God discerns hearts. Paul speaks of Jews being judged by the law they stand on and being "weighed in the balance and found wanting". He speaks of Gentiles who did not have the law being justified by their concsience excusing them "on the day when God judges the secrets of mens hearts by Jesus Christ". There were no ET scholars when Paul wrote this. It was written to all men(everyman will be salted with fire- Jesus) with special attention paid to those who judge others. In Romans 1 Paul explains that evryone is without excuse because the divine nature and eternal power of God are plainly displayed in the things He has made. ET scholars may fall within that set as a subset- but I think Paul was addressing a larger parameter, the hearts of all men.  :2c:
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Romans 1:20 - They are without excuse (who are they?)
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2013, 09:08:16 AM »
I simply can't agree with that. Mainly because I don't understand how to apply the verse in real life.

I know all the verses about God's power being displayed in His creation.
Now imagine you are a Viking. You kneel before Thor, Wodan and other Norsk gods.
How can you even know about Jesus if the HS doesn't personally come to tell you.
You see power in nature but you honestly think it's from the supreme god you believe in. Obviously Vikings are also part of the Gentiles.

The story is a bit different for the countries surrounding Israel or pagans being in Israel. It's likely Romans listened to Jesus's sermons. Even if it was just to make sure He didn't say bad things about the Roman empire. But I doubt they understood anything of it.
The Egyptian people have 1st hand knowledge of God's power (the plagues). But I really wonder if they were told were the plagues orginated from. Personally I wouldn't be suprised some priest would tell them it was because one of their gods became angry because his temple wasn't beatiful enough. And taxes should be raised to build  a better temple. Or similar lies.

All the above is a problem for all denominations (including UR)
But especially for ETs. In case of UR the unknowing miss out stuff like the millenioum but also for them glory starts with the last verse of Revelation so to speak.
What it means in the ET mind I don't need to tell.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...