Author Topic: kolasis versus timoria  (Read 238 times)

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Offline Abigail

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kolasis versus timoria
« on: July 25, 2015, 11:30:59 PM »
Hi,

My husband had an email discussion with a non-UR-friend, in which he explained the word kolasis as a remedial action instead of vengeance. He wrote about being a father, wanting to help your children when you discipline them instead of pouring out vengeance over them. He wrote God always punishes this way (kolasis).
Our friend responded there are also scriptures about God's vengeance, like Romans 12:19. And there are more scriptures about God's vengeance. How should we understand this?

Offline ed

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Re: kolasis versus timoria
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2015, 04:07:27 AM »
Intersting.........I put your topic heading in google and the first link to pop was,

http://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/kolasis-or-timoria/

Great question and quest.

Offline marie glen

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Re: kolasis versus timoria
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2015, 06:59:15 AM »
I think it takes time.. the longer we are aware of God's true nature and UR (universal reconciliation/repentance, etc) the more and more we read it in our Bible reading.. There's really only one verse which could possibly be interpreted as after death, no hope, and that's when jesus told the pharisees unless they repented they would "die in their sins".. but to me that simply means they would rise in their sins, a less joyful - for a time, resurrection than the first resurrection.. when one would be faced with God's full holy, pure and blazingly bright character and still have ones' own flaws, imperfections and sins.. Arriving doa, so to speak..
Jesus said "If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to me" ~ Ps 22:27-"All the ends of the earth will turn to the LORD-every knee shall bow-all tongues confess`Jesus is Lord`" ~ iF there's 1000yrs between Trumpets (beginning of the long 2nd advent of Jesus) and DOA/2nd resurrection, then is there 500yrs between DOA and Tabernacles?-"God will now tabernacle w/ man"Rev21. For 500yrs judgment day the HS will convince the world of sin? & at the concLusion of, all those(still) not believing will go to"age-lasting" LOF?
~ If 1st advent fulfilled the Spring Holy Days, 2nd fulfills Fall 1's?

Offline gregoryfl

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Re: kolasis versus timoria
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2015, 09:27:08 PM »
Shalom Abigail,

What comes to your mind when you hear or read the word 'vengeance'?

In the Creator's language, it is the word נקם (naqam). It is related to the words נקב (naqab) and נקה (naqah) by the נק marriage root.

נקב (naqab) means 'to bore out'.
נקה (naqah) means 'to be empty'.

Words with this root all have something to do, both positively and negatively, with being emptied or excavated of something.

In the negative sense, it refers to blasphemy toward God, treating him as empty, worthless. Or in the sense of a city being emptied, brought to ruin.
In the positive sense, it refers to the process of being empty of guilt; i.e., innocent.

נקם (naqam) is the process by which God completely empties with the goal of bringing about purity and innocence. It is a harsh means, but one that is ultimately for the good.

Here is an illustration of sorts, using this concept.

If I told you that a group of people took a young boy and strapped him to a bed, then one of them took a drill and drilled a hole in his head, and that was all I said to you, you might think of how horrible and sadistic such a thing would be.

If I then added that this boy had encephalitis and these were surgeons who drilled the hole in order to put in a shunt to drain the brain of the excess fluid. This act of 'boring' and 'emptying', though harsh, actually served to save the young boy.

While not the best illustration, what I can definitely say is that every expression of God comes out of who He is-love. Even his vengeance is good and necessary, not the way we have come to define it in human terms today.

Ronen

Offline marie glen

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Re: kolasis versus timoria
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2015, 10:07:15 PM »

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen! Amen! a great example and post..
Jesus said "If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to me" ~ Ps 22:27-"All the ends of the earth will turn to the LORD-every knee shall bow-all tongues confess`Jesus is Lord`" ~ iF there's 1000yrs between Trumpets (beginning of the long 2nd advent of Jesus) and DOA/2nd resurrection, then is there 500yrs between DOA and Tabernacles?-"God will now tabernacle w/ man"Rev21. For 500yrs judgment day the HS will convince the world of sin? & at the concLusion of, all those(still) not believing will go to"age-lasting" LOF?
~ If 1st advent fulfilled the Spring Holy Days, 2nd fulfills Fall 1's?

Offline Abigail

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Re: kolasis versus timoria
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2015, 11:04:33 PM »
Thanks, Ed.
Ronen, I was thinking of a kind of 'paying back', since in the mentioned scripture it says: never avenge yourselves, but leave the way open for wrath, for it is written, Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.

In my heart I do believe punishments always are for purification ultimately. Yet I don't know how to answer a critical person who takes this scripture to prove vengeance is not for the good for the offender, but for the offended or just for the sake of 'justice being done'. It looks like a kind of retribution in the verse.







Offline WhiteWings

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Re: kolasis versus timoria
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2015, 11:22:23 PM »
Abigail, even if it means vengeance it still doesn't say what that vengeance actually is and how long it takes.
Many assume it's the endless fires of hell. Keyword is assume.

Psalm 6:1, "O Lord, rebuke me not in your anger, nor discipline me in your wrath."
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline gregoryfl

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Re: kolasis versus timoria
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2015, 11:34:34 PM »
Ronen, I was thinking of a kind of 'paying back', since in the mentioned scripture it says: never avenge yourselves, but leave the way open for wrath, for it is written, Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.

In my heart I do believe punishments always are for purification ultimately. Yet I don't know how to answer a critical person who takes this scripture to prove vengeance is not for the good for the offender, but for the offended or just for the sake of 'justice being done'. It looks like a kind of retribution in the verse.
If you don't mind Abigail, let's see if what you quoted actually helps us understand that ancient idea even more. If Paul is quoting from Deu 32:35, where the word 'repayment' is found, it is the word שילם, which is related to a word you should recognize...shalom; referring to the state of wholeness, completeness. Hidden in this word as well is an action that is ultimately about restoration. When we think of repayment, we tend to only think of someone 'getting what they deserve', with an attitude full of anger and bitterness and venom. This is the reason that God says that it is for him to enact vengeance, and to repay.

What God does in enacting repayment, in my thinking from a Semitic perspective, is that he bores through the offender, emptying them as they bored and emptied the offended one. On the one hand, it indeed is for the good of the offended one, but it ultimately is for the good of the offender as well, for there is no greater justice than for the offender and offended to be restored together to a state of wholeness, with their God and with each other, and it is by this means that he uses to bring this about.

You brought up the word punishment. Once again here is a word that originally meant something far different than it does currently. I have a thread on the ancient meaning of that word here:

http://38.99.252.205/forum/word-studies/ancient-hebrew-meaning-of-punish/msg172830/#msg172830

You will probably not be able to answer a critical person with this until they are ready to receive. If it is for you to receive though, then may it be a blessing to your understanding.  :HeartThrob:

Ronen

Offline rosered

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Re: kolasis versus timoria
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2015, 04:51:08 AM »
I   am thankful for the defining   of the word and meaning in the Word of God  , found this
Click any letter to display an alphabetized index of Biblical terms:
a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z
Result 1- Punish
kolazo
timoreo
1.     Punish kolazo primarily denotes "to curtail, prune, dock" (from kolos, "docked"); then, "to check, restrain, punish;" it is used in the Middle Voice in Acts 4:21; Passive Voice in 2 Pet 2:9, AV, "to be punished" (RV, "under punishment," lit., "being punished"), a futurative present tense.


2.     Punish timoreo primarily, "to help," then, "to avenge" (from time, "value, honor," and ouros, "a guardian"), i.e., "to help" by redressing injuries, is used in the Active Voice in Acts 26:11, RV, "punishing" (AV, "I punished"); Passive Voice in Acts 22:5, lit., "(that) they may be punished." Cp. timoria PUNISHMENT.

Note: For 2 Thess 1:9, "shall suffer punishment," RV, See JUSTICE. See SUFFER.

Result 2- Punishment
ekdikesis
epitimia
kolasis
dike
timoria
1.     Punishment ekdikesis for 1 Pet 2:14, AV, "punishment" (RV, "vengeance"), see ekdikesis under AVENGE.

See also : ekdikesis

2.     Punishment epitimia in the NT denotes "penalty, punishment," 2 Cor 2:6. Originally it signified the enjoyment of the rights and privileges of citizenship; then it became used of the estimate (time) fixed by a judge on the infringement of such rights, and hence, in general, a "penalty."


3.     Punishment kolasis akin to kolazo kolazo under PUNISH), "punishment," is used in Matt 25:46, "(eternal) punishment," and 1 John 4:18, "(fear hath) punishment," RV (AV, "torment"), which there describes a process, not merely an effect; this kind of fear is expelled by perfect love; where God's love is being perfected in us, it gives no room for the fear of meeting with His reprobation; the "punishment" referred to is the immediate consequence of the sense of sin, not a holy awe but a slavish fear, the negation of the enjoyment of love.


4.     Punishment dike "justice," or "the execution of a sentence," is translated "punishment" in Jude 1:7, RV (AV, "vengeance"). See JUSTICE.

See also : dike

5.     Punishment timoria primarily "help" (see timoreo under PUNISH), denotes "vengeance, punishment," Heb 10:29.

Note: The distinction, sometimes suggested, between kolasis as being disciplinary, with special reference to the sufferer, and timoria, as being penal, with reference to the satisfaction of him who inflicts it, cannot be maintained in the Koine Greek of NT times.
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline Abigail

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Re: kolasis versus timoria
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2015, 10:10:10 PM »
Thank you, Ronen and Rose. That was edifying.
Ronen, I was wondering about something yet. Are words that look like each other in the Hebrew always related, that is, come from the same source and share part of meaning? Is this also the way Jews understand the Torah?



Offline gregoryfl

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Re: kolasis versus timoria
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2015, 11:19:52 PM »
You are welcome sis.

Without getting you bogged down with technical information, the basic answer is yes. In Greek, words are generally kept distinct one from another, and in English this is even more so. They are precise according to what they are.

In Hebrew though, words are grouped together according to the action they perform, and those actions are what end up being very distinct. (For example, there are many words in Hebrew that convey different ways of cutting). They are precise according to what they do.

With few exceptions (similar sounding letters interchanged being one of them), if you see words with the same 2 letters beginning a word, they all end up sharing a basic meaning, although they end up being different words. For example, the palm of a hand and a spoon are different things, yet are the same word in Hebrew. This is because they both convey the action of curving (a curving part of the body, and a curving utensil).

Jews understand the word structure in this way, although for them they relate words according to a 3 letter root, while a few (Rashi being one of them, and myself as well) hold to a 2 letter root relationship.

If it interests you...to get an idea of what I mean when I say 2 letter roots carrying related meanings, look up the following words in your concordance:

5420 נתס to tear up
5421 נתע to tear out
5422 נתצ to tear down
5423 נתק to tear off

The first 2 letters נת convey the same basic meaning 'to tear'. The last letter (reading right to left) gives different nuances of that meaning (up, out, down, off). These are the patterns we look for when studying the meaning of Hebrew words. I hope this answers your question in a way that makes sense.

Ronen
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 11:23:19 PM by gregoryfl »

Offline Abigail

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Re: kolasis versus timoria
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2015, 12:32:15 AM »
It sure makes sense. Thank you very much brother!

Offline marie glen

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Re: kolasis versus timoria
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2015, 02:38:57 AM »
I think of all punishment or vengeance 'from God' as consequences.. And as how we learn.. How we all are learning good from evil, which I think is the same as learning life from death.. what is life and what is nonlife..

And all of it as natural law.. We reap as we sow.. thus by sowing what we reap, we learn what genders to life, and what moves away from life.. God being Life, good, excellence, etc.. Perfection. Therefor the 'end' result of all this (human history that is) can only be the best one possible - because He can only be Perfect (or He too would fade..?) Imperfection being the opposite of God/Life...

Even national or global 'wrath of God' (His reaching out) is, I believe, all natural consequences.. As what is said to be the best teacher? Then if God were to treat Judgment Day (age?) as a long day of review, hammering home the lesson of good from evil / life from nonlife.. the potential no one will be lost to; very real potential, but none lost to nevertheless. :2c: :smile:

..because Perfection makes NO mistakes, and can lose nothing.. :Peace2:
Jesus said "If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to me" ~ Ps 22:27-"All the ends of the earth will turn to the LORD-every knee shall bow-all tongues confess`Jesus is Lord`" ~ iF there's 1000yrs between Trumpets (beginning of the long 2nd advent of Jesus) and DOA/2nd resurrection, then is there 500yrs between DOA and Tabernacles?-"God will now tabernacle w/ man"Rev21. For 500yrs judgment day the HS will convince the world of sin? & at the concLusion of, all those(still) not believing will go to"age-lasting" LOF?
~ If 1st advent fulfilled the Spring Holy Days, 2nd fulfills Fall 1's?

Offline rosered

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Re: kolasis versus timoria
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2015, 12:58:39 PM »

Well said ,Marie !
 
  The very heart of the matter ..

 :thumbsup:   :HeartThrob:
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline Abigail

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Re: kolasis versus timoria
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2015, 12:39:48 AM »
That resonates in my heart, Marie .
So, actually,  Kolasis and timoria may be two sides of the same coin... God's  vengeance being a pruning too.