Author Topic: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire  (Read 1209 times)

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Offline lostnbroken

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2014, 04:40:28 AM »
he was really mad at sodom and gommorah though...but he says he will restore them and it is more tolerable for them on judgment day then others...so he does get really mad and in last days it will get really bad...still i trust in his love and mercy in that he will not stay angry forever and he will not want people in pain forever but to heal and them and make them new....

Offline GraceUponGrace

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2014, 04:42:08 AM »
this gives hope  :HeartThrob:
The Bible isn't about hope because hope is about possibilities.
The Bible is about facts.
One of those facts is that the Good Shepherd will seek, find and return that lost sheep to the flock.


Interesting conversation, am following this closely. As far as the word "hope" goes...it is summed up well by the word "expectation" like Tom said. It is how our culture typically misuses the word that has given us a weaker impression of it's awesome meaning. Biblical hope mean "the confident expectation of what is certain", which is a lot different than the flimsy hope we are promised by shady politicians. :winkgrin:

Offline Seth

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2014, 04:47:34 AM »
he was really mad at sodom and gommorah though...but he says he will restore them and it is more tolerable for them on judgment day then others...so he does get really mad and in last days it will get really bad...still i trust in his love and mercy in that he will not stay angry forever and he will not want people in pain forever but to heal and them and make them new....

Yes, it's not to say his wrath does not exist, but it's different from human wrath. Human beings experience our emotions through flesh, nerves, blood, physical signals. God is spirit. He says that his thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

Sodom and Gomorrah were under a judgment before the fire came. This is similar to how God gave a symbol after the reality, such as in circumcision Abraham was given the symbol after he already had faith. Sodom and Gomorrah were already turned over to their own wicked desires. I believe God sent fire as a representation of a judgment that they were already under, defiling themselves with each other. That is why God's wrath comes from heaven in Romans 1. Even Peter uses that example of how they will be "utterly perished in their own corruption." I don't think it's literal fire, but a judgement in the manner of Romans 1.


Offline lostnbroken

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2014, 04:51:42 AM »
i can understand this....he allows for consequences to happen and if you fail to learn form that it will get worse for you....

Offline Seth

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2014, 04:54:14 AM »
i can understand this....he allows for consequences to happen and if you fail to learn form that it will get worse for you....

Yes exactly. And the reason they get worse is for the problem to become more obvious and the desire for salvation will be born. Once repentance occurs they enter into the city and receive life. It's the same for everyone. This is how I see it.

In fact according to Romans 7, this is why God gave the law, for sin to become exceeding sinful and then the sinner will see it and desire a savior. This is why we need to not go back under the letter, because it's not for salvation but for the revelation of the problem. The Holy Spirit (water of life) is salvation from sin.

:dsunny:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2014, 06:54:55 AM »
i know i want to be healed from all of my sins and whatever else does not belong.... jesus made it sounds so hard to even be apart of the kingdom[narrow way, few chosen]....he will heal the whole world and then bring everyone to a place of love and wholeness...this is beautiful...
There is a difference between not being chosen and being eternally lost. Ever noticed a group get resurrected and the next group gets resurrected 1000 years later after His millennial kingdom.



1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2014, 07:16:15 AM »
well if a shepherd found an injured sheep he would either heal it or put it out of misery....
True. But
a] Jesus is a shepherd with divine healing powers.
b] Put out of misery means dead. Not burn them alive.

Quote
but then there are the goats he sends away form him...how will he bring them back?????
Lot's of translations are not very exact. For example, to my best knowledge, when we read about a sparrow the Bible itself writes about a little bird.
Jesus is said to be a lamb. But if you look up that word (even in a regular lexicon) it means something like small domestic animal kept by people. In other words when we read sheep it could just as well mean goat in most (all) cases. There is absolutely nothing wrong with goats. People always seem to thing goats represent the demonic forces or something like that. But the reality is that God also accepted offerings of goats on His altar. But He was quite picky because under no circumstance He accepted, for example, pigs.
Just search for goat in the Bible and see how often they are mentioned. Just as worthy animals not as something bad. They even got sacrificed during Passover.

Exo 12
5 A flock animal, a male without blemish, a yearling, shall be to you. You shall take from the sheep or from the goats.
6 And it shall be for you to keep until the fourteenth day of this month. And all the assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it between the evenings.

Anyway, I can PM you a free book that tries to figure out Jesus was the lamb or goat of God. No really conclusive answer but the book shows that in many cases sheep can just as well mean goat.

Back to the sheep on the right and goat on the left. If think it can also be read as sheep on the right and YOUNG sheep on the left.
Old sheep are wise. Wise as having good knowledge of God's things. Young sheep need teaching. There is a thread on this somewhere on this forum. Again no conclusive proof. Simply because certain words has such a wide range of meanings, nothing can be proved with them.

But what all of the above proves is:
a] It's possible goat can be young sheep.
b] Goats are not God's way of saying something is utterly evil. It's church that gave goats that meaning.

 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2014, 08:26:28 AM »
A little more about goats:

I wonder part of the answer is in the Greek words for goat and sheep (mat 25:33)

GOAT
eriphion
Thayer Definition:
1) a kid, a young goat

SHEEP
probaton
Thayer Definition:
1) any four footed, tame animal accustomed to graze, small cattle
1a) a sheep, and so always in the NT


While the translator very likely had a reason to translate as they did, lets explore another translations.

Sheep can just as well be translated as goat which is small cattle.
Goat can be translated as a kid. A  kid of what? kid sheep, kid goat.
So legitimate translations would be:
- Sheep and young sheep. -> Old sheep and young sheep.
- Goats and young goats. -> Old goats and young goats.

Old isn't about age but maturity in Christ. A babe in Christ is new Christian that can be 8 years old but just as well 88 years old.

So young points to the level of growth/education into Christ. The young ones/goats need more education.


Also read http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/the-sheep-and-the-goat/msg104620/#msg104620
Reply #4 and onward.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline eaglesway

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2014, 08:38:12 AM »
Sheep can be led. They hear their Shepherds's voice and follow Him beside still waters, eating green pastures.

Goats are headstrong. They butt one another with their horns, eat trash, and wander far afield. and they "But" the Master.

"Today if you hear My voice, harden not your hearts as they did in the wilderness....as i said in my wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest'".
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Seth

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2014, 08:47:48 AM »
Sheep can be led. They hear their Shepherds's voice and follow Him beside still waters, eating green pastures.

Goats are headstrong. They butt one another with their horns, eat trash, and wander far afield. and they "But" the Master.

"Today if you hear My voice, harden not your hearts as they did in the wilderness....as i said in my wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest'".

 :thumbsup:

Jesus defines the goats directly in the parable. Sheep = those who loved. Goats = those who didn't.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2014, 09:41:01 AM »
Sheep can be led.
Goats also. Nomads had goat flocks for millenia.

Anyway that was not what I was talking about.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline eaglesway

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2014, 11:49:29 AM »
Hi WW,
   I was just making a comment about the difference between sheep and goats as types in scripture. Also, I would disagree that sheep can be translated "just as well" as goats or cattle. My reason for that is that the purpose of translation is to communicate the mind of the speaker from the language being trasnslated into the language being read- not to include "all possible meanings" of a particular word, thus obscuring the original.

IMO the speaker, being the Holy Spirit in the scriptures, is speaking of sheep in a positive light and goats in a negative light, for the express purpose of making a distinction, a distinction that is naturally important, since it is the Holy Spirit making it.

Thank God He is redeeming all :o), but nevertheless- there is a reason for the distinction, as it pertains to life in Christ, or it would not have been made.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Tom

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2014, 05:02:46 PM »
I used to deal with goats, and they are rowdy funny critters. They're more efficient than a lawn mower though, and their milk is healthier than cow's milk because it's naturally homogenized. But I think the point is that the sheep and goats(kids) refers to the nations who either helped or persecuted Israel, and this judgment takes place at the beginning of the millenium rather than the judgment of individuals at the end before the great white throne. So in Matthew 25:41 the "fire eonian" may just be figurative referring to severe trial for the figurative sheep and goats(kids). But that's just my humble opinion.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html