Author Topic: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire  (Read 1560 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2014, 07:16:15 AM »
well if a shepherd found an injured sheep he would either heal it or put it out of misery....
True. But
a] Jesus is a shepherd with divine healing powers.
b] Put out of misery means dead. Not burn them alive.

Quote
but then there are the goats he sends away form him...how will he bring them back?????
Lot's of translations are not very exact. For example, to my best knowledge, when we read about a sparrow the Bible itself writes about a little bird.
Jesus is said to be a lamb. But if you look up that word (even in a regular lexicon) it means something like small domestic animal kept by people. In other words when we read sheep it could just as well mean goat in most (all) cases. There is absolutely nothing wrong with goats. People always seem to thing goats represent the demonic forces or something like that. But the reality is that God also accepted offerings of goats on His altar. But He was quite picky because under no circumstance He accepted, for example, pigs.
Just search for goat in the Bible and see how often they are mentioned. Just as worthy animals not as something bad. They even got sacrificed during Passover.

Exo 12
5 A flock animal, a male without blemish, a yearling, shall be to you. You shall take from the sheep or from the goats.
6 And it shall be for you to keep until the fourteenth day of this month. And all the assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it between the evenings.

Anyway, I can PM you a free book that tries to figure out Jesus was the lamb or goat of God. No really conclusive answer but the book shows that in many cases sheep can just as well mean goat.

Back to the sheep on the right and goat on the left. If think it can also be read as sheep on the right and YOUNG sheep on the left.
Old sheep are wise. Wise as having good knowledge of God's things. Young sheep need teaching. There is a thread on this somewhere on this forum. Again no conclusive proof. Simply because certain words has such a wide range of meanings, nothing can be proved with them.

But what all of the above proves is:
a] It's possible goat can be young sheep.
b] Goats are not God's way of saying something is utterly evil. It's church that gave goats that meaning.

 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2014, 08:26:28 AM »
A little more about goats:

I wonder part of the answer is in the Greek words for goat and sheep (mat 25:33)

GOAT
eriphion
Thayer Definition:
1) a kid, a young goat

SHEEP
probaton
Thayer Definition:
1) any four footed, tame animal accustomed to graze, small cattle
1a) a sheep, and so always in the NT


While the translator very likely had a reason to translate as they did, lets explore another translations.

Sheep can just as well be translated as goat which is small cattle.
Goat can be translated as a kid. A  kid of what? kid sheep, kid goat.
So legitimate translations would be:
- Sheep and young sheep. -> Old sheep and young sheep.
- Goats and young goats. -> Old goats and young goats.

Old isn't about age but maturity in Christ. A babe in Christ is new Christian that can be 8 years old but just as well 88 years old.

So young points to the level of growth/education into Christ. The young ones/goats need more education.


Also read http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/the-sheep-and-the-goat/msg104620/#msg104620
Reply #4 and onward.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Online eaglesway

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2014, 08:38:12 AM »
Sheep can be led. They hear their Shepherds's voice and follow Him beside still waters, eating green pastures.

Goats are headstrong. They butt one another with their horns, eat trash, and wander far afield. and they "But" the Master.

"Today if you hear My voice, harden not your hearts as they did in the wilderness....as i said in my wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest'".
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Seth

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2014, 08:47:48 AM »
Sheep can be led. They hear their Shepherds's voice and follow Him beside still waters, eating green pastures.

Goats are headstrong. They butt one another with their horns, eat trash, and wander far afield. and they "But" the Master.

"Today if you hear My voice, harden not your hearts as they did in the wilderness....as i said in my wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest'".

 :thumbsup:

Jesus defines the goats directly in the parable. Sheep = those who loved. Goats = those who didn't.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2014, 09:41:01 AM »
Sheep can be led.
Goats also. Nomads had goat flocks for millenia.

Anyway that was not what I was talking about.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Online eaglesway

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2014, 11:49:29 AM »
Hi WW,
   I was just making a comment about the difference between sheep and goats as types in scripture. Also, I would disagree that sheep can be translated "just as well" as goats or cattle. My reason for that is that the purpose of translation is to communicate the mind of the speaker from the language being trasnslated into the language being read- not to include "all possible meanings" of a particular word, thus obscuring the original.

IMO the speaker, being the Holy Spirit in the scriptures, is speaking of sheep in a positive light and goats in a negative light, for the express purpose of making a distinction, a distinction that is naturally important, since it is the Holy Spirit making it.

Thank God He is redeeming all :o), but nevertheless- there is a reason for the distinction, as it pertains to life in Christ, or it would not have been made.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Tom

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2014, 05:02:46 PM »
I used to deal with goats, and they are rowdy funny critters. They're more efficient than a lawn mower though, and their milk is healthier than cow's milk because it's naturally homogenized. But I think the point is that the sheep and goats(kids) refers to the nations who either helped or persecuted Israel, and this judgment takes place at the beginning of the millenium rather than the judgment of individuals at the end before the great white throne. So in Matthew 25:41 the "fire eonian" may just be figurative referring to severe trial for the figurative sheep and goats(kids). But that's just my humble opinion.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2014, 06:40:47 PM »
Sheep can be led. They hear their Shepherds's voice and follow Him beside still waters, eating green pastures.

Goats are headstrong. They butt one another with their horns, eat trash, and wander far afield. and they "But" the Master.

"Today if you hear My voice, harden not your hearts as they did in the wilderness....as i said in my wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest'".

 :thumbsup:

Jesus defines the goats directly in the parable. Sheep = those who loved. Goats = those who didn't.
Unfortunately it seems both of you don' t have clue what I wrote. Why?  Because one half of your answers is irrelavant,  the other half agrees more with my view as you+ seem to understand.

I'll leave it at this,  but will say one more thing; try to look at the meaning of things instead of being constantly choked by letters and words... 

 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Seth

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2014, 06:52:19 PM »
Sheep can be led. They hear their Shepherds's voice and follow Him beside still waters, eating green pastures.

Goats are headstrong. They butt one another with their horns, eat trash, and wander far afield. and they "But" the Master.

"Today if you hear My voice, harden not your hearts as they did in the wilderness....as i said in my wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest'".

 :thumbsup:

Jesus defines the goats directly in the parable. Sheep = those who loved. Goats = those who didn't.
Unfortunately it seems both of you don' t have clue what I wrote. Why?  Because one half of your answers is irrelavant,  the other half agrees more with my view as you+ seem to understand.

I'll leave it at this,  but will say one more thing; try to look at the meaning of things instead of being constantly choked by letters and words... 

 :2c:

Knock it off WhiteWings

Online eaglesway

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2014, 06:05:00 AM »
I was, as I said, just expressing my thoughts about sheep and goats, and what I believe Jesus was saying. We may not see it the same but- doesnt mean I'm right, or that you are "wrong"- just discussing in forum. No need for anyone to get worked up. Discussion is what the forum is is for.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline rosered

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #60 on: October 23, 2014, 05:42:13 PM »
Quote
KJVMat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

WWMat 25:33 And he shall set the old on his right hand, but the babes on the left.

νήπιος
nēpios
Thayer Definition:
1) an infant, little child
2) a minor, not of age
3) metaphorically childish, untaught, unskilled
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from an obsolete particle ne- (implying negation) and G2031
Citing in TDNT: 4:912, 631
KJVTit 2:11-12  11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

παιδεύω
paideuō
Thayer Definition:
1) to train children
1a) to be instructed or taught or learn
1b) to cause one to learn
2) to chastise
2a) to chastise or castigate with words, to correct
2a1) of those who are moulding the character of others by reproof and admonition
2b) of God
2b1) to chasten by the affliction of evils and calamities
2c) to chastise with blows, to scourge
2c1) of a father punishing his son
2c2) of a judge ordering one to be scourged
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G3816
Citing in TDNT: 5:596, 753
Sheeps and goats is about judgement.
KJV1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Chastened=teaching => See defenition above.
κρίνω
krinō
Thayer Definition:
1) to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose
2) to approve, esteem, to prefer
3) to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion
4) to determine, resolve, decree
5) to judge
5a) to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
5a1) to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
5b) to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
5b1) of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others
6) to rule, govern
6a) to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
7) to contend together, of warriors and combatants
7a) to dispute
7b) in a forensic sense
7b1) to go to law, have suit at law
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: perhaps a primitive word
Citing in TDNT: 3:921, 469

  I read the old studies  with this new study
  and see Simple     truth as  we all must come to     Christ   as little ones         and all need      a raising , ALL   babes are    so vulnerable    !! 
 to be trained       and corrected   
  If a sheep or a goat          both have purpose in Gods pleasure       , with out the contrast       we  would lack the understanding
 
  Sheep are   ADULT   or trained and still  needy  totally  dependent on protection   of the Shepherd and the   sheep dogs that     keep the    flock   together in wide pastures as they age and are  kept  safe 
 
  Goats  go off alone   often and get into situations  that   they can    carouse   and forage  for food that sheep would never eat    , they are wild   by nature and   do great in the wilderness    , where sheep die without  supervision       
  where as goats by nature     need little   
 
  for me its just showing the sheep are totally dependent on the  Shepherd and the goats are not
  and this is faith     as an example of the sheep and goat     divisions
 
 But as little ones all     are  totally dependent on   God and     none can enter the Kingdom of God   but as little ones
 
 as Jesus separates  them  when they become of age         to the left or right
  to  hear His voice and do not follow another  where a goat would follow  as  it keeps searching  and wander off         for  its needs     to be met
 
 
 
  This maybe   what you mean WW , not sure          , you will let me know right Brother T ?     
 I did love the studies all of the old ones too   and well as this thread          , but with only the understnding  I have now can I even   get this much      right or wrong   
 
  God bless you and yours  :flowerred:

Offline marie glen

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Re: the Age-Lasting Lake of Fire
« Reply #61 on: October 23, 2014, 07:04:01 PM »
A little more about goats:

I wonder part of the answer is in the Greek words for goat and sheep (mat 25:33)

GOAT
eriphion
Thayer Definition:
1) a kid, a young goat

SHEEP
probaton
Thayer Definition:
1) any four footed, tame animal accustomed to graze, small cattle
1a) a sheep, and so always in the NT


While the translator very likely had a reason to translate as they did, lets explore another translations.

Sheep can just as well be translated as goat which is small cattle.
Goat can be translated as a kid. A  kid of what? kid sheep, kid goat.
So legitimate translations would be:
- Sheep and young sheep. -> Old sheep and young sheep.
- Goats and young goats. -> Old goats and young goats.

Old isn't about age but maturity in Christ. A babe in Christ is new Christian that can be 8 years old but just as well 88 years old.

So young points to the level of growth/education into Christ. The young ones/goats need more education.


Also read http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/the-sheep-and-the-goat/msg104620/#msg104620
Reply #4 and onward.

That's awesome!! Even if the tendency to look at this verse as the saved and the unsaved, separate harvests (of Rev ch 14) at Jesus' arrival/return.. to me this still fits as the saved - mature and the not yet saved, the not yet mature/saved, but still erring 'kids'.. :smile:
- Is it written? no repentance after death? if resurrected still in ones sins (2nd Resurrection) will be weeping and wailing? Holy Days - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles prophecy the three peaks of His long 2nd advent? Is weeping & wailing the beginning of the redemptive process?
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- "...aLL things new" Rev21:5 "A new heavens and a new earth" Rev 21:1 - Is 11:7 Micah 4:4 Is 30:25
http://www.bubblews.com/news/9080033 -revelation told in rhyme - 45 days