Author Topic: The problem of evil  (Read 1467 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4262
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: The problem of evil
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2014, 07:30:01 AM »
In the gospel, imo, there was never a, "just come get forgiveness" offerred. The call is to discipleship. Forgiveness has been given, and we are offering it through the gospel, which calls men to die(repentance) be buried(separation from the world) and be raised up in the image of Christ into a transformation that brings forth a kingdom of priests." many are called, few are chosen.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8429
  • Gender: Female
Re: The problem of evil
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2014, 07:36:33 AM »
 :cloud9: AMEN  :iagree:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3107
Re: The problem of evil
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2014, 07:38:22 AM »
I agree with you regarding the priesthood. But, personally, I don't think reconciliation means immediate remission of sin, or repentance and baptism are not necessary for it. Repentance and baptism is FOR the remission of sin.

Romans 3
 25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,i through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished


The sacrifice of atonement is received by faith, and I think the sins committed "beforehand" is a reference to the Law.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.


That's why I believe Christ was able to forgive sins before shedding his blood. Lacking a blood sacrifice did not constrain Jesus who is Lord of the Law.

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4262
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: The problem of evil
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2014, 07:47:39 AM »
As I see it, Jesus never lacked a blood sacrifice, he was the one and only blood sacrifice.

8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them"—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

His own priesthood was verified by His willing sacrifice, offering His life through the shedding of His blood
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3107
Re: The problem of evil
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2014, 09:12:21 AM »
As I see it, Jesus never lacked a blood sacrifice, he was the one and only blood sacrifice.

By "lacking a blood sacrifice" I mean before he went to the cross, in the linear frame of time, where it all happens in order, one thing after another. In other words, Jesus was able to forgive before he literally spilled blood because he was Lord of the Law, and the Law is what required blood sacrifice for remission.

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4262
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: The problem of evil
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2014, 07:45:10 AM »
Yea :o)  We just disagree here I think. Jesus' death was determined before the Law. He is before all things. The Law was not the reason Jesus shed His blood, the Fall was the reason-for the reconciliation of all. The Law was just a shadow/tutor pointing to Him. He never had to fulfill it- He spoke it into being, and then transcended it by the perfect law of liberty. He could forgive sins because He was the Lamb of God, the sacrifice Lamb. All of it was made possible by the blood of His cross, even those sins forgiven before the actual event of His death, because the cross is eternal. It rent the veil between temporal and eternal, His body. We pass through the veil as members of that body, sharing in His death and sharing in His life.

"I have a task, to complete, and oh how constrained I am till it be accomplished"

Jesus forgave some individuals their sins in His earthly ministry, and all men are reconciled through the blood of His cross.


IMO it all comes from the cross, "For this reason God gave Him the name above every name that at the name of Jesus Christ every knee shall bow."

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3107
Re: The problem of evil
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2014, 08:02:09 AM »
Yea :o)  We just disagree here I think. Jesus' death was determined before the Law. He is before all things. The Law was not the reason Jesus shed His blood, the Fall was the reason-for the reconciliation of all. The Law was just a shadow/tutor pointing to Him. He never had to fulfill it- He spoke it into being, and then transcended it by the perfect law of liberty. He could forgive sins because He was the Lamb of God, the sacrifice Lamb. All of it was made possible by the blood of His cross, even those sins forgiven before the actual event of His death, because the cross is eternal. It rent the veil between temporal and eternal, His body. We pass through the veil as members of that body, sharing in His death and sharing in His life.

We don't disagree on everything. I agree that his death was determined before the Law, and that he is before all things, and that the Law is not the ONLY reason he died. Certainly the Law is part of the reason.

What I am saying is that the requirement for blood is by the Law. Christ's death was predetermined, but it was also predetermined that the Law should require a blood sacrifice, which Christ fulfilled. He did that for all mankind, to be sure, but I do not believe it was required of Christ to shed his blood to forgive sin.

I understand the explanation of why Christ did forgive sin before his death has to do with timelessness. That causes too many other problems for me to go with it. If blood sacrifice was necessary for Christ forgive during his earthly ministry, then he could not forgive in linear time until all things were fulfilled.

This is why Christ did not usher in the New Covenant before his death. He could have just said, "the Old Covenant is over NOW, because I am going to die soon." But he didn't do that, because everything has a required order.

If ANY of God's requirements are necessary in linear time, and in order, than ALL requirements are necessary in order, not just some here and there. If faith, repentance and baptism is required in linear time for remission of sins, then blood sacrifice is required to fulfill the Law in linear time also.

Personally, I believe Christ transcends the Law because the Law is not for a righteous man, but for the ungodly, murders etc, things which Christ was not. That he is Lord of the Law is what I believe made him able to forgive before dying.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 08:08:15 AM by Seth »

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3107
Re: The problem of evil
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2014, 08:19:04 AM »
It's probably not a major disagreement. As you say, we're not majoring in the minors. Whether it's timelessness or transcendence, we both agree on so many other things.

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4262
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: The problem of evil
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2014, 08:22:01 AM »
Absolutely and, in some ways we might be splitting hairs here, lol

But we ARE being polite and respectful about it- how refreshing :o)

I dont believe the requirement for blood is just by Law. The Law reflected the true requirement for blood, which was by love and the divine nature. (No greater love has a man than to lay down His life for a friend). Blood (spotless firstborn lamb)was applied to the doorposts before the law was given, and the death angel passed over. IMO, The blood sacrifices under the law did not forgive sins, they bound them over until Christ would be revealed to take away the sins of the world, once for all, at the cross. In Hebrews the writer calls this the consummation.

Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

To me this is incontrovertible along with Col 1 and a few other verses that the manifestation, "once, at the consummation of the ages", puts the cross at the apex of creation.

Like a cone standing up, time must walk from the bottom rim to the tip(consummation) and back down again. In eternity, flip the cone upside down and everything starts at the cross. (my allegory, my opinion).In the beginning was the word. Jesus, the Logos, the seed, the Alpha /Omega, the Lamb slain.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3107
Re: The problem of evil
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2014, 08:47:14 AM »
But we ARE being polite and respectful about it- how refreshing :o)

 :thumbsup:


Quote
Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

To me this is incontrovertible along with Col 1 and a few other verses that the manifestation, "once, at the consummation of the ages", puts the cross at the apex of creation.

Let me be clear, though. I am not saying that Christ forgave the WHOLE WORLD in his earthly ministry, but he did forgive a few people. He did that because he chose to, he decided to do it in his sovereignty. He also chose to reconcile the whole world though his death after that.

What I am saying is that this is the way God CHOSE to do it. God was well within his own rights to forgive everyone whenever he wanted. I do not believe God was constrained by an arbitrary need for blood. I think that codified language in the Law was written for his plan's sake.

I don't believe God has some special need for blood to satiate some other need to punish. That's what I get from Calvanism. I rather think God is more sovereign than that, that he was well within his rights to forgive anyone at any time for any reason he so deemed, and that he CHOSE to use Christ's sacrifice as a means to reveal his love.

I don't view the atonement from the perspective of God NEEDING anything to get his plan done. I view it as God's plan from the beginning and that he was not a subject to the Law, but Lord of it. God the Father was not subject to obey the Sabbath, and neither was Christ. God also did not need Christ to die first either. But he CHOSE that method rather.

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4262
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: The problem of evil
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2014, 09:36:14 AM »
God for sure doesnt need anything. He is who He is- so anyhting He does extends directly from Who He Is, reflecting His absolute being and nature. This is why Christ is the image of God and the expressed thought of God and the radiance of the Father's glory. That's why Abraham was the friend of God.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3107
Re: The problem of evil
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2014, 09:40:32 AM »
Yeah that's what I am getting at really. I don't have it all figured out necessarily (just what seems to make sense to me), but I just can't help but be suspect about the interpretation that I once had that puts God in the position of having some kind of need for blood to satiate his wrath. I don't think that's what Hebrews 9 is getting at, personally. I'm not saying you do, but the topic just brought up what I have been pondering.

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4262
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: The problem of evil
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2014, 04:53:39 PM »
Yes, I understand that. The thing about God needing blood to satisfy His wrath, in the way it is taught, is another corruption of a doctrine in order to justify ET. There are so many.

Since the gospel is about Christ the image of God, becoming partakers of the divine nature, etc. I never did see God having an attitude of, "I must kill myself so I don't destroy my entire creation in my rage", which is sorta how its been portrayed"

I do see that God is perfect justice and perfect mercy at the same time, However, I see the blood more in the nature of, "I have poured my life into all things, so that mercy triumphs over judgment, so that I can do whatever I want and all will be silent when I speak. No one can judge my mercy because I purchased it with my own blood(Acts 20:28). "

Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor
Who has given to Him that He should repay
For from Him and to Him and through Him are all things to whom be the glory throughout all ages.


Amen :o)
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline Seth

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3107
Re: The problem of evil
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2014, 08:17:56 PM »
 :thumbsup: he's so awesome

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4262
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: The problem of evil
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2014, 09:21:11 PM »
BTW, I do believe repentence and baptism are "necessary".But I believe the new covenant is towards a body(A body thou hast prepared for me), that will do His will(It is written in the scriptures of me, I come to do Your will, O God), which is the ministry of recnciliation(For God was in Christ reconciling the world unto itself and we have been entrusted with the word of reconciliation(God in Christ-Christ in you.)

IMO, the word of reconciliation goes out to all announcing, "You have been forgiven".......How beautiful on the mountaintops are the feet of them...

Repentence is the Gate into the sheepfold and I see it more as being awakened to righteousness by the overwhelming glory of the love of God displayed at the cross of Jesus, than a "willful decision to change". The remorse(godly sorrow) is more the awareness of the price that love paid for our redemption that "I am sorry I did the wrong thing(s)"

Baptism is tricky for folks because of the word "saved" has always been connected to ET theology- but IT ISNT AND NEVER WAS INTENDED TO BE THAT. As Israel was "saved from Egypt" to serve as a kingdom of priests(Let my people go so they can worship me") in stages.....baptism simply delivers a necessary element in the process of becoming a disciple of Jesus, a minister of reconciliation.

Blood of a spotless firstborn Lamb applied to the doorpost with a sprig of Hyssop (cleans me with hyssop and I will be clean, Psalm 51, David's hymm of repentence)   The death angel passed over.

Whenever someone believes(sees Christ crucified, believes Christ risen and Lord) the blood is applied to the doorpost. it is IMPOSSIBLE to see Christ crucified in the spirit of revelation and not repent. Those who see, say, intellectually or religiously but have not been broken by it, havent seen in the biblical sense, and in my opinion are "still in Egypt" (the world). The doorpost is the conscience/consciousness- the portal of the heart. "I pray thet the eyes of your heart may be enlightened(Eph 1). They have eternal life. The seed is planted but......many are called(all believrs), few are chosen(for sonship/priesthood/anointing).

They must pass through the Red Sea to get free.
When Peter says, "In the same manner baptism also saves you(refering to the Noahide flood)" he is not talking in ET theological terms. He is not saying if you are not baptized you "are going to hell".

He is simply saying that baptism is"stage two" in the process of being delivered from the grip of the strongman(carnal mind) and escaping the slavery and oppression of the world, the flesh and the devil. Peter called it "the answer" of a clear conscience. Paul called it the "burial of the body of the sins of the flesh) and the "circumscision". IMO, it is about answering God in faith and setting the natural understanding aside. We receive as a benefit, the "answer"... the old man is dead, my past sins are buried, my logic is based on the Logos and the Spirit- not Pharoahs magiciians and jailers, my service is based in the freedom of abundant love.

So, when the Sanhedrin cried out to Peter, "What must we do?, and He replied, Repent and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and you shall receive the promise of the Holy Spirit....it was NOT "or else you will go to hell forever". That was never the gospel.

To be saved was to be made whole, to exit Egyp(the world and the flesh) and enter the promised land(fruitfulness, fulness in God's grace)


So repent(blood on the doorpost)
Be baptized(cross the Red Sea)
You shall receive the promise of the Holy Spirit(pillar of cloud and fire to lead through the wilderness of sanctification where every unbelieving member-adversary, dies -until only the believeing members- TAKE POSSESSION OF THE PROMISES).

It is about the renewing of the mind. It is about becoming conformed to the image of Christ the image of God. It is about transformation into the children of God, serving through the PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY(Let my people go)

Hell, eternal death, annihilation- none of that ever entered into it.

Now when someone hears that if you werent baptized or baptized in a certain way, you will go to hell, all kinds of bells and whistles go off- and rightly so. Then a huge debate begins about when the blood is applied and all manner of craziness- ALL BECAUSE OF ET SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY. But as long as that foundation of ET thinking is applied to the word "saved"- baptism will never be fully understood- nor mush else of the wisdom of God for that matter.

A little leaven leavens the whole lump, eh

Acts 2:38 is about entering life in Christ, not escaping hell. IMO anything taught from the perspective of escaping eternal torment or annihilation is tainted with the leaven of oppression and death. All of it is about entering life as servants of God, children of God, disciples of Christ- becoming light, life and love in the freedom of having become a new creature.

' When God gets us into the RENEWED MIND together, renewed in the image of Christ in all humility kindness and compassion- then He will anoint the acceptable offering and send His Spirit in fulness. But is isnt like that, so we labor in the wilderness, seeking to enter His rest, but until death finishes its work in us(sharing in Christ's death through discipleship) we cannot enter His rest- the finished work, WHY? Simple, it is because of the hardness of our hearts- not because we dont know enough or have enough revelation. it is because we dont walk in His ways or hear the still small voice saying, "Come, take my yoke upon you, for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you will find rest for your souls."

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline rosered

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3237
  • Gender: Female
Re: The problem of evil
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2014, 07:28:57 PM »

 
 Wow this whole   thread    is wonderful , Thank you Bro John   !!!     
 
 
  I so can see this,  as many pictures in my minds eye     you are describing  here    of the Word of God  by His Spirit of holiness      and agree

  :HeartThrob:       God bless you  and yours   

Offline dajomaco

  • 500
  • *
  • Posts: 891
Re: The problem of evil
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2014, 09:38:01 PM »
So you are convinced that there is a place of Eternal torment.
You know in your heart somehow,
that is where you are going to go ,
 because of all the bad stuff you did.
Then you find out through the emotional experience of Receiving Jesus as your Lord and savior,
that you are not going to hell because he personally saved you . 
Could you ever really Love Jesus for just being who he is.

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 4262
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: The problem of evil
« Reply #42 on: Today at 02:01:36 AM »
I think, if you really "see" Him you can really love Him, even if your theology is messed up- but I think the "witness"(HS) will always be knocking at the door to lead one into all truth, and the salvation of all.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline rosered

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3237
  • Gender: Female
Re: The problem of evil
« Reply #43 on: Today at 02:37:07 AM »
I think, if you really "see" Him you can really love Him, even if your theology is messed up- but I think the "witness"(HS) will always be knocking at the door to lead one into all truth, and the salvation of all.


   :thumbsup:        Yes forgiving our    theology   and looking upon the heart   :HeartThrob:
 
       And the LORD replied unto Samuel, Do not look on his countenance or on the height of his stature because I have refused him, for it is not as man sees, for man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart.