Author Topic: Paying the Last Penny  (Read 2565 times)

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Tim B

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Paying the Last Penny
« on: June 28, 2009, 12:15:24 AM »
Matthew 5:26:

Quote
5`Be agreeing with thy opponent quickly, while thou art in the way with him, that the opponent may not deliver thee to the judge, and the judge may deliver thee to the officer, and to prison thou mayest be cast,

 26verily I say to thee, thou mayest not come forth thence till that thou mayest pay the last farthing.

Does anybody have any good articles on this? I would take this to mean, at the very least, that sin doesn't mean eternal punishment. It seems to suggest that punishment lasts only until one has payed for ones crimes. How does one pay for his crimes though? Is this making reference to the lake of fire, when man is refined unto perfection? Is that paying for ones crimes?

I brought this over at city-data.com and somebody accused me of a works based doctrine. To be honest though, I shouldn't have brought this up (probably), because I haven't done too much research on these words of Jesus.

Any help would be awesome!  :bigGrin:

aspiring son

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Re: Paying the Last Penny
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2009, 05:10:16 AM »
John 6-63" The words I speak unto you are spirit, and they are life,"

the judge- Christ the judge of our hearts

the accuser- satan who is the accuser of the brethren

why agree with him quickly before coming to the judge?

"For if we judge our selves we will not be judged,

But when we are judged we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world" 1 corinth 11 31- 32


Let us judge ourselves of any wrong doing before we are in danger of chatisement - or the "(spiritual) prison." Not to say that all chastisements can be avoided, but;

"Each man's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by (holy) fire; and the fire will test each ones work, of what sort it is.

If anyone's work which he has built endures, he will receive a reward.

If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer a loss; but he himself will be saved, yet as through fire ( chastisement)"
1 Cor 13-15[/i]
 Agreeing with the adversary means to comply with them unafraid.

I'm sure this could be expounded more Tim B. This is just what I feel has been revealed to me.

Grace and peace,

Brandon

aspiring son

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Re: Paying the Last Penny
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2009, 04:24:31 PM »
I think that this does not necessarily mean after one is physically dead; but could be the ridding of sins in this life as well; being chastized until what he wants out of us is no longer there. We may not be physically thrown in prison like the early followers, but will endure the hardships of being accused of falsehood, nonetheless.

The parallels are there. Hope this helps a little.


Offline jabcat

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Re: Paying the Last Penny
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2009, 08:26:29 PM »
I like the thoughts of the last post.  My thoughts are that as far as our salvation, Jesus paid it all. 

I also think we may want to consider that Jesus was talking to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, so could there be some ramifications there as opposed to us of the New Covenant somehow having to "pay" for what He has already now paid for?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Paying the Last Penny
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2009, 09:04:36 PM »
Jesus paid it all.
Although that's correct the wording is (perhaps) to weak. Jesus reffered to a legal document in the Roman empire.

Quote
It is probable that Jesus was bi-lingual (Aramaic and Greek).  It is also probable that he spoke all of these statements but the fourth in Greek (soldiers understood him; Mark says he spoke Mk. 15:34 in Aramaic).  If this is the case, what he uttered was tetelestai: "paid in full!"

This was the word that was written as the first word on receipts acknowledging payment in the Roman world. [3]   In other words, Jesus is announcing that our sin debt with God has been paid in full!

This is certainly how Paul understood this statement--read Col. 2:13,14.  The "certificate of debt" was the document specifying crimes against society.  Jesus had such a certificate nailed to his cross (Matt. 27:37), even though he was innocent.  Paul says God took our spiritual "certificates of debt"--God's record of our sins against him--and "nailed it to the cross."  Because Jesus paid our debt, God has cancelled ours out, taken it away.  Through Jesus' death, God has completely dealt with the only barrier that ever separated him from us.
http://www.xenos.org/teachings/nt/john/gary/john19-1.htm
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Paying the Last Penny
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2009, 09:18:49 PM »
Yes, I'm aware of the phrase "paid in full" as in a business contract, and I like it.  The vernacular of "paid it all" is addressing a little different aspect of it.  It's another way of saying it's all accomplished, there's nothing else we can do to add to it or take away from it, i.e., our works can't "help it along"...it's "covered".

Tim B

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Re: Paying the Last Penny
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2009, 09:47:42 PM »
Yeah, I don't really think of it as in: we need to work to pay it off. More of, when we "pay" for our sins, we are taking the punishment for it we deserve. So I thought maybe he was making reference to the Lake of Fire, and mankind "paying" off their debt (by being punished/corrected and having their sin removed). Maybe that's not what Jesus meant though. xD

I mean, honestly though, is there any form of punishment which is not, in essence, corrective? I know we have the "death penalty" and we have "life in prison," but that only seems to be because A) we cannot always safely correct a person's behavior and B) some people want revenge, and claim it's justice, and C) to get these dangerous people out of innocent peoples' lives. But when a person gets 25 years in prison for man-slaughter (say, because of reckless driving), is not the idea, in part, to correct such behavior for when they get out? I'm sure, if we could fix men's behavior, we'd do that rather than shoving people in prisons.

aspiring son

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Re: Paying the Last Penny
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2009, 01:19:21 AM »
Yeah, I don't really think of it as in: we need to work to pay it off. More of, when we "pay" for our sins, we are taking the punishment for it we deserve. So I thought maybe he was making reference to the Lake of Fire, and mankind "paying" off their debt (by being punished/corrected and having their sin removed). Maybe that's not what Jesus meant though. xD

I mean, honestly though, is there any form of punishment which is not, in essence, corrective? I know we have the "death penalty" and we have "life in prison," but that only seems to be because A) we cannot always safely correct a person's behavior and B) some people want revenge, and claim it's justice, and C) to get these dangerous people out of innocent peoples' lives. But when a person gets 25 years in prison for man-slaughter (say, because of reckless driving), is not the idea, in part, to correct such behavior for when they get out? I'm sure, if we could fix men's behavior, we'd do that rather than shoving people in prisons.

Which brings me to the point that the Father does those things to us in this lifetime, to burn out the sin. Some people need physical jail, and for those whom he is choosing, they go through ordeals of pressure, much like being in one's own jail sometimes; but we are freed in the spirit when our eyes are fixed on him. I know it's alot easier to write then to go through, but God is truly faithful in all things.


Pleroo

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Re: Paying the Last Penny
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2009, 06:10:26 PM »
This is certainly how Paul understood this statement--read Col. 2:13,14.  The "certificate of debt" was the document specifying crimes against society.  Jesus had such a certificate nailed to his cross (Matt. 27:37), even though he was innocent.  Paul says God took our spiritual "certificates of debt"--God's record of our sins against him--and "nailed it to the cross."  Because Jesus paid our debt, God has cancelled ours out, taken it away.  Through Jesus' death, God has completely dealt with the only barrier that ever separated him from us.
http://www.xenos.org/teachings/nt/john/gary/john19-1.htm
[/quote]

I really struggle with this whole concept of us oweing a debt to God for our sin.  How does one pay back God for their sins?  How does His Son's death do that?  God, being God, why does He need anyone to pay Him anything?  It just boggles my mind and I haven't found a way to reconcile it yet.

Pleroo

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Re: Paying the Last Penny
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2009, 07:04:42 PM »
Did my post sound confrontational?  I didn't mean it to.  It's just this is one of those things that is often on my mind over the years since coming to embrace UR and which I have yet to resolve in my own mind.  Just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't challenging anyone but voicing some frustration at my inability to wrap my head around this.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Paying the Last Penny
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2009, 07:21:19 PM »
since coming to embrace UR
Isn' that question the same for all denominations?
God has a plan. He has a set of rules.
But why that plan and those rules while He could have devised an unlimited number of other plans.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Pleroo

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Re: Paying the Last Penny
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2009, 07:26:32 PM »
since coming to embrace UR
Isn' that question the same for all denominations?
God has a plan. He has a set of rules.
But why that plan and those rules while He could have devised an unlimited number of other plans.

Well, sure it's the same question.  :Sparkletooth: It's just that I never gave it that much thought prior to UR because I was consumed with coping with the fear of hell and trying to make sens of "why some and not others"... seriously.  Now that the Father has laid that to rest in my mind, I can focus on other things  :bigGrin:.  I'm not challenging God's plan, just trying to understand it.  If I never do, I never do but, for now at least, it remains a nagging question always at the back of my mind.

Pleroo

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Re: Paying the Last Penny
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2009, 07:38:25 PM »
Oh, and maybe I should add that the reason it is a nagging question for me is because it doesn't seem to "fit" with the love of God as I have come to understand it.  I understand him saving us from our bondage to sin and the effects of it.  But to think of Him somehow needing some kind of payment to appease Him doesn't seem to fit.  Kwim?

Pleroo

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Re: Paying the Last Penny
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2009, 09:56:07 PM »
Oh, and maybe I should add that the reason it is a nagging question for me is because it doesn't seem to "fit" with the love of God as I have come to understand it.  I understand him saving us from our bondage to sin and the effects of it.  But to think of Him somehow needing some kind of payment to appease Him doesn't seem to fit.  Kwim?

 :dontknow:  I don't get it.  I've asked this question here before at least once, maybe more, and no one ever answers that I know of.  Is it that cut and dried for people that no one can understand why I'm even asking?

Tim B

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Re: Paying the Last Penny
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2009, 11:33:23 AM »
Oh, and maybe I should add that the reason it is a nagging question for me is because it doesn't seem to "fit" with the love of God as I have come to understand it.  I understand him saving us from our bondage to sin and the effects of it.  But to think of Him somehow needing some kind of payment to appease Him doesn't seem to fit.  Kwim?

 :dontknow:  I don't get it.  I've asked this question here before at least once, maybe more, and no one ever answers that I know of.  Is it that cut and dried for people that no one can understand why I'm even asking?

Hey man, I'm not really sure why we needed to pay anything back. I mean, we had to pay in the sense of dealing with sins, so perhaps Jesus only paid for a debt in the sense of taking our place. He payed for what we couldn't pay for. Or, at least, if we did pay for it we had no chance of ever being made alive again. (If sin = death.) Maybe that's what Jesus payed back: the debt, that is, the consequences of sin, that we couldn't go through without being completely destroyed. But, Jesus, through the Father, was made alive again and opened up a way to be released from the destruction of sin, and bring us to life with the Father.

My  :2c: for what they're worth...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Paying the Last Penny
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2009, 11:45:51 AM »
I believe Jesus fully paid the price.  I don't fully understand exactly all the reasons that was required in God's PLAN, but it apparently was.  He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, so from the  "beginning", God had already made that provision.  Right now it's just something I just have to believe and trust Him on.

Offline sheila

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Re: Paying the Last Penny
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2009, 06:09:10 PM »
 I think it all boils down to the Law being the judge[all men are

 sinners] which should have led to Christ [grace/free gift]

   It was written for those who disagreed that they needed grace..and felt self- righteous through the law

   If you agreed with the judge[law that condemened sin in the flesh] you would accept Christ's message of mercy and that God had sent Him to  fulfill it for us and set it aside so mercy could
 be shown[kinsman redeemer paid debt,bought back inheritance]

    If you failed to agree..you would remain is spiritual  bondage[prison] til you paid it all with your death under the law.

  this was spoken to the jewish people. it is an eternal precept for us,also.

   grace only are you saved..not through your own righteousness
 above any other man.

   Many of the churches have fallen away and gone back to a mixture of the old law covenant..law and grace...and it is an unlawful union of the covenants when used to judge others.

  However,if you use it to judge yourself...you will reckon your body as good as dead,under the law covenant,due to sin in the flesh[works judged] and righteousness by the spirit through faith per grace[spirit's work]

   every jot and tittle of the law fulfilled in Christ,who laid down his flesh in order to take it back up again

    it is all the works that are judged...the works of sin in the flesh are condemned..and death of the sin-filled flesh is the judgement...the law fulfilled[who will rescue me from this body undergoing this death? thanks be,to the Lord Jesus!}

    those who suffer loss..or works that are burned are those who through the works of the flesh seek to justify themselves
 the only thing that will endure is the hope and faith placed in
Christ and God for their mercy and grace and works of faith would endure.BELEIVE

   you must forgive all those who have sinned against you if
you want your heavenly Father to forgive your sins. In essence
not limit the grace of God to yourself as deserving,but judging your brother as undeserving of eternal life by grace. That's a no-no

  the law is good when it's used lawfully..sin in the flesh is condemned...eternal life of the spirit as a free gift from God
 is judgement[Law] with MERCY

   think about what He has promised..deliverance of all mankind from these dying sinful vessels we  dwell in. Not GOOD ENOUGH,He says...you must be perfect...and He will make us thus.

   Free gift of His eternal spirit placed in incorruptable vessels..
 and walla!! perfection by grace!! For all mankind

aspiring son

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Re: Paying the Last Penny
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2009, 11:07:16 PM »
I think it all boils down to the Law being the judge[all men are

 sinners] which should have led to Christ [grace/free gift]

   It was written for those who disagreed that they needed grace..and felt self- righteous through the law

   If you agreed with the judge[law that condemened sin in the flesh] you would accept Christ's message of mercy and that God had sent Him to  fulfill it for us and set it aside so mercy could
 be shown[kinsman redeemer paid debt,bought back inheritance]

    If you failed to agree..you would remain is spiritual  bondage[prison] til you paid it all with your death under the law.

  this was spoken to the jewish people. it is an eternal precept for us,also.

   grace only are you saved..not through your own righteousness
 above any other man.

   Many of the churches have fallen away and gone back to a mixture of the old law covenant..law and grace...and it is an unlawful union of the covenants when used to judge others.

  However,if you use it to judge yourself...you will reckon your body as good as dead,under the law covenant,due to sin in the flesh[works judged] and righteousness by the spirit through faith per grace[spirit's work]

   every jot and tittle of the law fulfilled in Christ,who laid down his flesh in order to take it back up again

    it is all the works that are judged...the works of sin in the flesh are condemned..and death of the sin-filled flesh is the judgement...the law fulfilled[who will rescue me from this body undergoing this death? thanks be,to the Lord Jesus!}

    those who suffer loss..or works that are burned are those who through the works of the flesh seek to justify themselves
 the only thing that will endure is the hope and faith placed in
Christ and God for their mercy and grace and works of faith would endure.BELEIVE

   you must forgive all those who have sinned against you if
you want your heavenly Father to forgive your sins. In essence
not limit the grace of God to yourself as deserving,but judging your brother as undeserving of eternal life by grace. That's a no-no

  the law is good when it's used lawfully..sin in the flesh is condemned...eternal life of the spirit as a free gift from God
 is judgement[Law] with MERCY

   think about what He has promised..deliverance of all mankind from these dying sinful vessels we  dwell in. Not GOOD ENOUGH,He says...you must be perfect...and He will make us thus.

   Free gift of His eternal spirit placed in incorruptable vessels..
 and walla!! perfection by grace!! For all mankind

Good post sheila.           :thumbsup: