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Offline micah7:9

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Never Knew You
« on: August 29, 2011, 03:26:10 AM »
I've taken a post from another thread to start a new post.

Re: So What Happens to This Man?
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2011, 03:43:52 AM »
   Reply with quote
"Is this man one of those who claims to know Christ but is actually not " In " Christ?

Many will come and say that He is the Christ, but Christ NEVER knew them."(Ross)

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord! Lord! shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens,—but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in the heavens.
Mat 7:22  Many, will say unto me, in, that, day, Lord! Lord! did we not, in thy name, prophesy, and, in thy name, cast, demons, out,—and, in thy name, many works of power, perform?
Mat 7:23  And, then, will I confess unto them, Never, have I acknowledged you,—Depart from me, ye workers of lawlessness!

I am given to understand in this parable, that Jesus is speaking about the church, yes, the called out, "ekklēsia."
 I just look at the religions, denominations, sects, with their formalisms, rituals, rites, that are today and where and what they grew from. Yes I contend that it is the church [all the forms of it] that Jesus is addressing. who else has usurped authority, been caught in lies and other destruction? And it did'nt just start in this century.

Mat 7:15  `But, take heed of the false prophets, who come unto you in sheep's clothing, and inwardly are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16  From their fruits ye shall know them; do men gather from thorns grapes? or from thistles figs?
Mat 7:17  so every good tree doth yield good fruits, but the bad tree doth yield evil fruits.
Mat 7:18  A good tree is not able to yield evil fruits, nor a bad tree to yield good fruits.
Mat 7:19  Every tree not yielding good fruit is cut down and is cast to fire:
Mat 7:20  therefore from their fruits ye shall know them.

Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Never Knew You
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2011, 04:11:04 AM »
"who else has usurped authority, been caught in lies and other destruction?"

The religious elite, the Saducees and Pharisees who were about to lose their place of privilege in the judgment of 70 AD.  Just as Jesus said, they were cast into outer darkness, thrown into Gehenna, every stone of their beloved temple torn down, ending their temple worship.

Certainly some of the same principles can apply to this age, and I agree, the "church" situation is a mess.  But again, primarily I believe Jesus was addressing the Jews pre-cross during His earthly ministry.


He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."  Mt. 15:24
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 05:54:31 AM by jabcat »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Never Knew You
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2011, 08:24:07 PM »
Yes, He was sent only to the lost sheep...this is a parable, and I contend that it is speaking of the religions and especially what is refered to as Christians who profess to be following the Gospel and Jesus Christ.

"Just as Jesus said, they were cast into outer darkness, thrown into Gehenna, every stone of their beloved temple torn down, ending their temple worship."

"thrown into Gehenna" this is addressed to the disciples.

"and I agree, the "church" situation is a mess."

And just why do you suppose that is? Could it be that they chose to bring forth doctrines of men and forsake the Gospel and
the teaching of Truth?

P.S. I cannot say why all religion has gone this way, to do so would tread on the taboo.  And remember Jab

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God, and is beneficial for teaching, for exposure, for correction, for discipline in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be equipped, fitted out for every good act."

2Ti 4:1 I am conjuring you in the sight of God and Christ Jesus, Who is about to be judging the living and the dead, in accord with His advent and His kingdom:"
2Ti 4:2 Herald the word. Stand by it, opportunely, inopportunely, expose, rebuke, entreat, with all patience and teaching."
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 11:01:25 PM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: Never Knew You
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2011, 09:07:59 PM »
 'authority' comes only through Christ or God.....when one endeavours to take this authority,without proper knowledge or relationship with God..or

 without the granting of it to them,whether rulership over nations/congregations,or anything else

  they are easily overcome and deceived

   Acts 19;14  Some jews who went around driving out evil spirits "tried to" invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon

  possessed.They would say 'IN THE NAME OF JESUS,whom Paul preaches,I command you to come out. Seven sons of Sceva,a Jewish cheif priest

  were doing this. One day,the evil spirit answered them "Jesus  I know and Paul,but who are you" Then the man who had the evil spirit

   jumped on them AND OVERPOWERED THEM ALL 

         [those were not called and chosen nor given authority]   when such do this they have heard about him,but do not

  know Him,and names not written in heaven yet[do not rejoice that demons are sunject to you,but rejoice your names are written in heaven]


   he gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.    the saints were overcome


   reign and authority has to be given of God

Offline jabcat

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Re: Never Knew You
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2011, 09:38:22 PM »
micah, I can reply to your post, but I don't want to seem argumentative or cause undue problems for you.  Have a great day!

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Never Knew You
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2011, 12:10:51 AM »
micah, I can reply to your post, but I don't want to seem argumentative or cause undue problems for you.  Have a great day!

P.S. I cannot say why all religion has gone this way, to do so would tread on the taboo.  And remember Jab

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God, and is beneficial for teaching, for exposure, for correction, for discipline in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be equipped, fitted out for every good act."

2Ti 4:1 I am conjuring you in the sight of God and Christ Jesus, Who is about to be judging the living and the dead, in accord with His advent and His kingdom:"
2Ti 4:2 Herald the word. Stand by it, opportunely, inopportunely, expose, rebuke, entreat, with all patience and teaching."
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Never Knew You
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2011, 01:21:11 AM »
I don't think you understand what I'm saying, or maybe haven't seen how many times I've said ALL that's written is for our learning.  ALL of it is.  However, I don't believe ALL of it is PRIMARILY addressed to us.  There are spiritual principles (I'll say again) that apply to us, but I believe we need to be careful to not just mix it all together and not rightly divide (cut) the Word.  It causes doctrinal confusion.

An example;  Jesus told 2 disciples to go get a donkey for Him to ride.  That was for THEM to do.  Not for you or me.  We don't have to go get Him a donkey.  Now, a spiritual principle to be learned from that could be, we need to be obedient.   We can trust He knows what He's doing and what He's talking about.  He is humble, etc., etc.    But the specific statement was to a specific person, at a specific time, about a specific thing;  and it can be known.  Taking it to the extreme, a group now could say, "Jesus said get a donkey.  We're going to have donkeys, and become the Church of Borrowed Donkeys".  There's usually room for me to be wrong, but I'd suggest that would be misappropriating Jesus' words.   Repeating myself;  they were primarily to who, and about what?

Also, I have no qualms about the present "church" not following truth.  I believe it is so.  However, I disagree that's what Jesus was primarily addressing.  For that, if it's addressed at all, I believe it would be primarily either by Paul or perhaps John in the Revelation (unless that was totally for Israel as well, as Nathan has suggested).  ALTHOUGH, I'd think we can certainly learn much from Jesus' words to them - don't go by traditions of men, etc.  MUCH there to benefit from.  ALL scripture is for our learning.  But I don't believe we should totally misapply it, "hang it primarily on one group", while totally missing the context of the group that was specifically being talked about.   ( :sweat:  Not easy.  But you've asked "why so many denominations.  Could this be part of it?  :2c:)    I believe Jesus was addressing the Jewish nation/religion that had been in control (and  as sheila says, 'authority') and they were about to lose it.  Judgment was coming to that nation.  It's what the parable of the rich man and lazarus was about.  It was preparation for the closing of that age and the coming of the gospel of the cross, saved by grace, coming to us, the nations.  I believe the pattern is Israel first, now us the gentiles, then "when the time of the Gentiles has come in, all Israel shall be saved".  Then the whole of mankind.   

The context of the statement "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel" is Jesus talking about that nation, Israel, God's chosen, prior to that time and at that time.  I understand Him to identify who he's talking about and to, in vs. 8,9.    Again, I'll admit it, I have a hard time doing it - I'M NOT AN EXPERT!;  but if we mix up the things that were primarily said to specific people and about specific things and just take it to automatically mean other things, things become confusing.  I've done it a thousand times and still do it.         Notice the context, who was being addressed, and how Jesus initially reacted to the Gentile woman.  He didn't even respond to her, and when she kept "bugging him", He finally said, (Jabcat interpretation :)   "I'm not here [right now] to address you.  I'm talking to the Jews."   Finally, she persisted, and He blessed her.  He said though, and responded likewise, that this was not His primary focus and mission of His ministry.   And I don't see this as a parable, but if it is, I would think the parabolic part would be His use of the word "sheep", alluding to Him being the Good Shephard and followers being sheep.  Otherwise, the context seems to indicate He was telling the woman that she/gentiles were not His current focus.

7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

 8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

 9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 
 14Let them alone: [wasn't He talking to certain people in THAT generation - why would He be talking about 2,000 years later?]  they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

 
  21Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

 22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

 23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

 24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

 26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs [GENTILES] .

 27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs [GENTILES] eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

 28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.   

I also think there's a danger of NOT applying the scriptures enough to us, just dismissing too much of it as "for someone else".  It certainly takes prayer, discernment, being led by the Spirit as well, doesn't it bro?  I'm sorry for the "lecture", I in no way have all of it figured out and I'm wrong about many things.  Laying out what I believe, I don't really know any other way to say this.  If you see it differently, dwell in peace my brother.  We all, me especially, have much to learn.   God bless.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 01:45:20 AM by jabcat »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Never Knew You
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2011, 01:53:07 AM »
"There are spiritual principles (I'll say again) that apply to us, but I believe we need to be careful to not just mix it all together and not rightly divide (cut) the Word.  It causes doctrinal confusion."

You got that right. :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:

One has to start with truth, and build on the Rock as the foundation. the mixing altogether is what religion has done to appease the masses. The Bible is spiritual from cover to cover, and must be discerned by the Spirit, should those in religion not have the Holy Spirit for the discernment of the Word and they go about mouthing things that are not true and go as far as to make their statements part of a sect or denomination like a creed, where by it's one use is but for control of their people; we have what we has been going on for quite sometime up to and including today.

One example: the Christian religion believes and states that when a soul/person expires/dies that they go to heaven. When one begins with a lie and builds on it, soon that foundation will give way to the sand it was built on. :dsunny:

And yes I do not understand what you are saying.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 08:22:29 AM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Never Knew You
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2011, 08:59:42 PM »
"There are spiritual principles (I'll say again) that apply to us, but I believe we need to be careful to not just mix it all together and not rightly divide (cut) the Word.  It causes doctrinal confusion."

You got that right. :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:

One has to start with truth, and build on the Rock as the foundation. the mixing altogether is what religion has done to appease the masses. The Bible is spiritual from cover to cover, and must be discerned by the Spirit, should those in religion not have the Holy Spirit for the discernment of the Word and they go about mouthing things that are not true and go as far as to make their statements part of a sect or denomination like a creed, where by it's one use is but for control of their people; we have what we has been going on for quite sometime up to and including today.

One example: the Christian religion believes and states that when a soul/person expires/dies that they go to heaven. When one begins with a lie and builds on it, soon that foundation will give way to the sand it was built on. :dsunny:

And yes I do not understand what you are saying.

Could you clarify some of this, I'm totally confused as to what you were actually trying to say.

The Bible is spiritual from cover to cover, and must be discerned by the Spirit,

And how do you go about doing that?

we have what we has been going on for quite sometime up to and including today.
I don't even know what to ask because I can't make any sense of this at all.

the Christian religion believes and states that when a soul/person expires/dies that they go to heaven. When one begins with a lie and builds on it, soon that foundation will give way to the sand it was built on
These are two completely separate points.  And they're not even very accurate.  From what I gather, the Christian religion doesn't believe that when one dies they go to heaven, they believe that most will be going to hell.  Should one stumble into the opportunity to invite Jesus in their heart and die "then" they'll go to heaven.  Which then confuses the matter a bit because when it comes to dying and going to heaven, no one has proven that you won't.  It would appear that it's of your opinion that they don't.

An example;  Jesus told 2 disciples to go get a donkey for Him to ride.  That was for THEM to do.  Not for you or me.  We don't have to go get Him a donkey.  Now, a spiritual principle to be learned from that could be, we need to be obedient.   We can trust He knows what He's doing and what He's talking about.  He is humble, etc., etc.  For me, that's not what taking scripture "spiritually" means . . .morally maybe, but not so much spiritually. 

There are specific reasons why it wasn't a camel or an ox, but a donkey, and not a mature donkey, not a broken donkey, but one that had never yet been ridden . . .the colt itself is a symbol of something deeper . ..everything Jesus said and did had spiritual significance, nothing was just coincidence or happenstance.  Our rational minds aren't equipped to read into those things, which is why it's so important that we walk in the spirit, so that the Spirit can reveal the depth of what is transpiring on the surface.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Never Knew You
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2011, 09:11:14 PM »
".....no one has proven that you won't.  It would appear that it's of your opinion that they don't."

Yeah its only my opinion.



Joh 3:13  And, no one, hath ascended into heaven, save he that, out of heaven, descended,—The Son of Man.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Never Knew You
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2011, 09:52:42 PM »

An example;  Jesus told 2 disciples to go get a donkey for Him to ride.  That was for THEM to do.  Not for you or me.  We don't have to go get Him a donkey.  Now, a spiritual principle to be learned from that could be, we need to be obedient.   We can trust He knows what He's doing and what He's talking about.  He is humble, etc., etc.  For me, that's not what taking scripture "spiritually" means . . .morally maybe, but not so much spiritually. 

There are specific reasons why it wasn't a camel or an ox, but a donkey, and not a mature donkey, not a broken donkey, but one that had never yet been ridden . . .the colt itself is a symbol of something deeper . ..everything Jesus said and did had spiritual significance, nothing was just coincidence or happenstance.  Our rational minds aren't equipped to read into those things, which is why it's so important that we walk in the spirit, so that the Spirit can reveal the depth of what is transpiring on the surface.

I see what you're saying, and agree, except I see both applications as spiritual - I just see your observations as "deeper layers" of the spiritual truths.  Anyway, I see your point and I think you probably saw what I was primarily  :laughhand: getting at -trying to make sure we're applying things to where/who/when they're best applied - then the spiritual lessons/applications are for us as well.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 10:01:48 PM by jabcat »

Offline Nathan

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Re: Never Knew You
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2011, 10:29:16 PM »
here's one for irony . . .
The discussion is about keeping things in context and what that means and how that works, which for me, is one of the reasons why I like "The message" translations as it's one of the few that actually forces you to read Scripture "in" paragraphs.  They say they did that to make it harder for people to pull Scriptures out of context for personal opinions and purposes.  But the ironic part is, "in" the thread about the importance of context, I mentioned the idea that saying you don't go to heaven when you die is an "opinion", the first thing that happens is . . ."one" verse of Scripture is immediately thrown out there to prove that opinion is the right one.

Don't you see that as ironic???

Offline Nathan

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Re: Never Knew You
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2011, 11:12:39 PM »
John 3
9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
 10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
 12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Micah, you've given us a perfect example of how to keep it in context.  I could have backed up further still, but for the sake of space and time, let's just say that this conversation Jesus is having is the one he had with Nicodemus when they had the famous "born again?  Am I to go back into my mother's womb?" conversation.  Jesus' response was "Really?  With all your religious education you can't see this?  I'm standing here in front of you, telling you first hand these things are real and yet you, who has never been in the places I've been, you don't understand what I am saying and you won't accept it when I do tell you?  If you can't understand "this" part of it, how on earth are you going to grasp anything else I have to say???"

That's the gist of the conversation.  Are you with me so far?  "That's" the context.  The context is the topic being discussed, the whole conversation about that topic. The conversation began by Jesus saying you have to be born again in order to SEE THE KINGDOM.   IN that context he then threw this part out there . . .13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.  Now .. . IN THE CONTEXT, Jesus was NOT teaching anyone about where you go when you die.  What he WAS saying is, he's expounding on what he just stated in verse 11. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen.  . . .  How does he know?  because no MAN . . .again, I think it's been taken too literal in saying no men . . .what I personally think he's talking about is, carnality, carnal man, no flesh can enter into the things of the spirit . . because "that's" the context.  It was about seeing things spiritually.  Being born again is what enables us to "do" that.  "That's" the context.  .Jesus was that spirit that had come to manifest in the flesh.  He's telling Nicodemus that the "born again" experience is a spiritual one.  "that's" the context.

It wasn't as if someone approached him and asked where do we go when we die and this was his answer.  That's what happens when one pulls things "out" of context.  The red flags "should" be flying when we come across other Scriptures that "appear" to contradict each other.  Paul stated that if he wasn't in the flesh with those around him, if he died, he'd be with Jesus . . ."that's" IN the context.  That was the subject he was talking about.  Same as the Old Testament passage . . .I want to say it was in Lamentations but I'm not sure, that states that when you die, your flesh goes back to the dust from where it came and your spirit RETURNS to God who SENT it.  There are some key words there that strongly indicate that we were spiritual, perhaps in seed form, perhaps incomplete without bodies to have souls manifest in, but we were originally from the spirit realm nonetheless.  And when death occurs, we return back to the Father from where we were sent "from". 

Scripture never contradicts itself, only when "we" misinterpret it does it "appear" to contradict, but you already know that.  "How" can we misinterpret?  By pulling stuff out of it's context and patching it in a conversation we're having but the verses we pull up have nothing to do with the topic from which we pulled the verses from.  It's a mental flaw in all of us.  We have an idea or an opinion and should there be a point where our opinion would be questioned, rather than let our relationship with the Father express or reveal clarity, our minds immediately revert to a Scripture cuz . . .NOBODY will argue with Scripture!!!  Right?  That's why you'll also see people throw out a Scripture verse, and nothing more as their post.

"I'll prove to you I'm right . . .here . . .read "this"!  And all it does is it reveals the fact that your perspective is skewed from the truth of what the cherry-picked passage was originally saying.  So then the argument changes from whatever the topic was, to the differences of interpretation.  It's the carnal man's game of "bait-n-switch".  He does it to us all the time.  His goal is not to resolve anything, he just wants to prolong the argument and get people to turn against each other.  That's his nature, to seek, kill and destroy.  And he's really good at it.

When it comes right down to it, every denomination has their belief systems based on passages that have been ripped from their original context.  And then they'll tell you that "their" version is the spiritual one.  When all it is, really, is a spiritual truth, blended with rational thought and pasted together by "self" assurance, defended by human effort.  We call it "church".

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Never Knew You
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2011, 12:13:53 AM »
MY only reply after reading your essay is that your understanding of context is the very reason why there are so many denominations and why people cant see the sense in joining some religious club.
"
"Scripture never contradicts itself, only when "we" misinterpret it does it "appear" to contradict, but you already know that. " Now you got that right!

" It wasn't as if someone approached him and asked where do we go when we die and this was his answer.  That's what happens when one pulls things "out" of context.  The red flags "should" be flying when we come across other Scriptures that "appear" to contradict each other.  Paul stated that if he wasn't in the flesh with those around him, if he died, he'd be with Jesus . . ."that's" IN the context.  That was the subject he was talking about.  Same as the Old Testament passage . . .I want to say it was in Lamentations but I'm not sure, that states that when you die, your flesh goes back to the dust from where it came and your spirit RETURNS to God who SENT it.  There are some key words there that strongly indicate that we were spiritual, perhaps in seed form, perhaps incomplete without bodies to have souls manifest in, but we were originally from the spirit realm nonetheless.  And when death occurs, we return back to the Father from where we were sent "from". "

That is bull!  Listen Nathan you can think with common sense your way through His Word if thats what you want, as for me The first verse of Genesis is in context with the last verse in Revelation and all that is in between, thats the context.

" but we were originally from the spirit realm nonetheless. "  Then Paul was incorrect?

1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
Notice first a living soul and God never gave us a soul, He did not put a soul in man..MAN IS A SOUL.

Ecc 12:7  And the dust return to the earth, as it was,—and, the spirit, return unto God, who gave it.

Eze 18:20  The soul that sinneth, it shall die:.......

And...Joh 3:13  And, no one, hath ascended into heaven, save he that, out of heaven, descended,—The Son of Man.
Thats no body, no one, no person, no man....!
 
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Never Knew You
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2011, 12:43:39 AM »
Sorry bro, clearly we see things differently and I'm not getting pulled into what is already an over-worked arguement in the first place.  There's no need to become defensive.  If what you see is you're experience, then there's no defense necessary.  The relationship you have with the Father allows you to see what you see, just as my relationship with the Father allows me the same thing.  No need to bash our relationships against each other when it's already clear we're in two distinctly different places.

Offline micah7:9

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  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: Never Knew You
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2011, 03:02:28 AM »
I will say Amen to that!
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.