Is the judgment of Gehenna her and now?

[wasco55]

After doing some studies around Gehenna, I am still with some question marks.
From what I can understand, Gehenna is not for the world, but for the church. From the fact that Gehenna is situated outside of Jerusalem, we can understand that the garbage from Jerusalem ends in Gehenna.
And in this context I see Jerusalem, the Holy City as a metaphor of Gods holy people.

But my question is, if the Gehenna judgment is something that are going to take place post mortem, or is this something going on in our life here and now.

We know that most of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus gave directly to his disciples. Is this a warning to his disciples about what could be the consequences if they should fall into the sin of fornication, or any other serious sin? Not in terms of being punished by God, by with the consequences this could have on their life, here and now.
We know that the Greek word translated "offend "is skandalízo. From this word we have the English word, scandal. To make a scandal is a strong expression, and involves not only your own life, but also the life of other people.

Let me paraphrase a by telling a story.
A pastor lives in a small city, is married and has a nice family. He is respected in his community, and lives a good life.
What nobody knows is that this pastor is bisexual, and before he got saved and meets his wife, he was involved in a homosexual relationship with another man.
After many years this man shows up in the pastor's church. The pastor recognized the man at once, and goes to great him. The man tells the pastor how much he has been missing him, and asks if they can meet in his hotel the same night.
To make a long story short, the pastor and this man start having a sexual relationship again. This relationship goes on for a while without anyone else, but the two, knowing anything about it.
But one day the scandal is a fact. The pastor is exposed and his picture and name is on the FrontPage of all the newspaper.
The pastor has to pay the price for his sin by losing all of his respect, his job and even his family turns their back on him. On top of all this the pastor has to carry a heavy burden of guilt because of all the sorrow and pain all this has inflicted on his wife, his children and all the people of his church.
What this pastor has to pass through can indeed be called a living hell.
And I am sure that the pastor many times cursed himself for being so stupid.
-Why did I say yes to that first invitation?
-Why did I give inn to the temptation? 
-Why didn't I "cut off" the contact with this man from the first moment?
If he had been cutting off that contact from the very beginning, this scandal would never happen.

I am not saying that this pastor never could come back, serving the Lord, and the Lord can restore everything he lost, and even give him more.
But if he had been more consistent and instead of giving into the temptation, he would cut it off from the very beginning, then the hell he had to go through could have been avoid.

This are just some thoughts I've had lately, without claiming that this is a divine revelation :o)

[lomarah]

I definitely think you're on to something. Like Cardinal always says, He reproves us with our own wickedness. We all have to pass through the fire, though. (Everyone will be salted with fire.) And for those who are not purified in this life the fire will need to continue in the next will it not? 

[WhiteWings]

Do you see Gehenna as LoF (Lake of Fire)?
Just asking because there are different views on that.

Not all judgement is negative and some worms are divine....

[wasco55]

No, WhithWings, I do not see Gehenna as LoF
From what I  have understood so fare, the LoF is for the non belivers.

[wasco55]

I do agree with you on that lomarah, as in 1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

[WhiteWings]

No, WhithWings, I do not see Gehenna as LoF
From what I  have understood so fare, the LoF is for the non belivers.

Could be true but I have some doubts about that.
At the second resurrection it looks like people are only judged by their works. The goats are also called the nations sometimes. (among other things)

Is Gehenna right here right now?
After death comes judgement.
Are we judged rwice? Right now and after death?
(is that death literal?)
By the description of Gehenna and LoF it seems to be different things. But to be honest I'm not so sure about that.

[wasco55]

For sure, there are many aspects, and many ways of understanding the bible.

About judgment, we know what the bible tells us. After death comes judgment.

But then Jesus also tells us: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hearth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
What is Jesus talking about here?

[WhiteWings]

Be born once, die twice.
Be born twice, die once.

passed out of death into life.

The only way that doesn't contradict "after death comes judgement" is if people symbolicly die during this life.
Dying to your old self and go on with your new (reborn) self.
(what baptism symbolizes)

This has the potential to become a long thread....

[WhiteWings]

I wrote this on the city-data forum a while ago.  Reposting as it is relevant here:
--

To understand the truth of universal salvation, one must begin to understand what these verses on Gehenna are really talking about. Its not an eternal hell of suffering and torment. It could be a reference to the lake of fire (but that is debatable even amongst those who believe UR).


What Jesus meant about Gehenna

Gehenna which is translated as "hell" in some bibles, was the literal valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem where garbage and dead bodies of criminals were burnt up. Jesus used the word "gehenna" as a symbol of judgment: It was very dishonorable to be thrown there, it meant you were a criminal not worthy of a proper burial. If you want to understand what Jesus was saying, we should look at the first place He talks about Gehenna, in Matt 5:22 (and Mark 9, etc):

Matt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire [gehenna].

Do you know what "Raca" means? It is talking about an insult. If you insult your brother, you get judgment from the council. BUT if you call a brother a fool, you could go into hell fire. WHAT? HELLFIRE? Does that make sense? Insulting leads to judgment at a council, but calling someone a fool (which is also an insult) leads to HELLFIRE?

NO. The word there for "hell fire" is actually gehenna. This is actually a mistranslation. You can see how this mistranslation renders this verse to nonsense. The correct meaning there is "gehenna", which in this case simply means another type of judgment - a common judgment of the time of Jesus.

No one is going to "hell" for calling their brother a fool, yet that is what the faulty KJV translation implies (faulty in this one verse at least).


The context of this passage is important. Jesus is talking to His disciples, believers - during the sermon on the mount. Jesus is talking about judgment and what one should do in certain situations:

[YLT]
Matt 5:21`Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment; 22but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

So we can see these are all different types of judgment:
- killing will lead to a judgment
- likewise with hating a brother (angry without cause - hating is just as bad as killing)
- insulting a brother -> leads to judgement at the council of the sanhedrim
- calling a brother a fool (or "Rebel!") could lead to being thrown into the valley of hinnom

In those days criminals were thrown into gehenna (the valley) as their judgment. These were all judgments that would happen to them in their life (not in some fiery afterlife). Its speaking about consequences for actions.

Continuing on:
[NIV] 23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. 25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

So here we see Jesus is teaching us to be reconciled to our brother and fellow man. If we wish to murder or hate or insult our brother, we should stop what we are doing and go and be reconciled with him instead. Settle the matter with you adversary quickly.

This is all about settling disputes, and has absolutely nothing to do with a literal eternal torment in fire. This whole passage should be our first clue that "gehenna" is not "eternal hell".


So based on Jesus OWN words, we can see that Gehenna is simply talking about judgment, NOT eternal hell fire.

Again, its helpful to remember what judgment is for: setting things right - teaching righteousness.

[wasco55]

I don't manage to make quotes. :o(

But let me make a comment on your post WW.
The only way that doesn't contradict "after death comes judgement" is if people symbolicly die during this life.
Dying to your old self and go on with your new (reborn) self.
(what baptism symbolizes)

What Paul tells us is that if we are in Christ we are dead. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.
If I am cleansed by the blood of the Lam, can I be more purified?

Let's try to look at some scriptures in a new light.
What if all this fire, salting and judgments spoken of, really are about our life's here and now?
There are plenty of scriptures talking about the fire and trials we have to endure during our life as disciples of Jesus. And if we are the real children of God, he disciplines us. 

1Co 3:13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
What is this verse really talking about?
Is this a judgment all of us have to pass through?
If we read this verse in its context we understand that Paul is talking about his own ministry, but also that of Apollos.     
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another build thereon. But let every man take heed how he builds thereupon.
1Co 3:12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Who are the men Paul is talking about "building upon this foundation"?
From the context I cannot understand that Paul is talking to all believers. Paul call himself a masterbuilder, and he challenge the preachers/pastors/teachers coming after him, to continue building the same way he has been doing.
But in the end the work of the other builders has to pass through a test of fire to see the quality of their work.
So in the end my question is. Can 1.Cor.3:13 be applied to all believers, or not? 


 
And then we have: 2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Again I have to ask if there are some clear indications of this being a post mortem judgment.
What does Paul think about when he says; receive the things done in his body?
Is it possible to make a connection between this statement, and the warning Jesus gave his disciples in the Sermon on the Mount?
Fornication has very to do with our bodies.
1Co 6:18 Flee fornication! Every sin that a man does is without the body; but he that committed fornication sinned against his own body.
And why this is such a serious matter, we can read in
1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of a harlot? God forbid.

Following this line of thoughts, we also find that Mar.9:49 fit in
Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Only Mark gives us this statement from Jesus. But here we see that Jesus make this statement in connection with his warning to the disciples about the fire of Gehenna. 

As partakers of the new covenant, we no longer bring old covenant sacrifice. The one sacrifice I now bring is my bodies.
Rom 12:1  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Well, again I have to say that this is some thoughts of mine, and not a divine revelation 

[WhiteWings]

I don't manage to make quotes. :o(

There are several ways to quote one of them is typing:

Code: [Select]

[quote]I want to quote this text.[/quote]Result

I want to quote this text.

Or simply select/highlight text by dragging with your mouse and then click

But let me make a comment on your post WW.
The only way that doesn't contradict "after death comes judgement" is if people symbolicly die during this life.
Dying to your old self and go on with your new (reborn) self.
(what baptism symbolizes)

What Paul tells us is that if we are in Christ we are dead. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.
If I am cleansed by the blood of the Lam, can I be more purified?

I understand what you mean Wasco.
After death comes judgement. The verse doesn't add "unless dead in Christ"
The only way around this is the OT laws that state the only way to clean away sin is by blood. In OT times animal blood. in NT times Jesus' blood.
What exactly is purification? An instant process? Or something that can take years? It can be argued judgement is related to teaching. link


Judgment right now? Possible. I truely don't know.

[jabcat]

I like your thoughts and the way you're presenting them wasco.   

I'm afraid I'm not going to be very in-depth, as I told anna, I'm an outline guy :)

Others can fill in details/give their own specific answers, but briefly here's what I see right now.

I don't believe the spiritually reborn (saved) in this lifetime will go through any post-mortem punishment.  Their judgment is now, disciplined and raised as sons.  Post-mortem will be about works (faithfulness/obedience), rewards and position of service in the next age(s).  As you indicate, the cleansing blood of the Lamb applied by grace through faith, is a finished work, righteous, holy, sufficient.  If there's any purifying yet to be done at all for them, it's only the destruction of anything not of God, the taking away of any remaining vestiges of worldliness, finalizing their "fitness" for service in the kingdom.

That being said, I personally see the Lake of Fire as either a spiritual situation God sets, or even the result of being in God's Direct Divine Presence..which no mortal man has ever yet done and lived.  Our GOD is a Consuming Fire.  So it could be that "Lake of Fire" removes anything that's left that's not of God from the believer, but I don't believe they're "hurt" by it.

For the unbeliever, I believe that Presence/Lake of Fire is a situation/condition, or result of God's Presence, that brings the unbeliever to final repentance.  As every knee must bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord, I don't believe the Lake of Fire experience actually saves them by cleansing them, except by the fact that part of the process of spiritual rebirth by the Holy Spirit of God is cleansing.  Still, I believe it brings them to the place of brokenness and repentance and confession.  So to the unbeliever, it's experienced as painful.  Darkness being exposed and then consumed by Divine Light of YHWH and His Spirit.  It cannot stand in His Presence.  J. Preston Eby likens it in this life, to an unsaved, habitual sinner being in a gathering of believers where the Holy Spirit is moving in a mighty way.  He said that person experiences that as torment, torture.  They either repent, or they have to get out of there, flee.  In God's Direct Presence, every knee will finally bow, as there will finally be no other place to go - until all is consumed by His Love and grace.   (My little incomplete, still-more-to-be-enlightened view.  Blessings.)

[jabcat]

And I think there are holes and maybe even some inconsistencies in the above..it's just sort of the best I can see it right now.   Maybe at least part of it is helpful. 

[Ross]

[ Still, I believe it brings them to the place of brokenness and repentance and confession./quote]

I remember doing that.
Do you other folks also remember doing that?
That seems to be true repentance, the realization of who we are and why we are here because of what Christ has done for us to present us faultless to our heavenly Father.

[wasco55]

So to the unbeliever, it's experienced as painful.  Darkness being exposed and then consumed by Divine Light of YHWH and His Spirit.  It cannot stand in His Presence

I am not so sure if it's going to be painful,but for sure it's going to be a process. But we also have to remember that every man and women living in this world have one thing in common. 
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaned and travailed in pain together until now.
I think that everyone going through that proses will feel it more like a relief, rather than pain.   

Do you know what "Raca" means? It is talking about an insult. If you insult your brother, you get judgment from the council. BUT if you call a brother a fool, you could go into hell fire. WHAT? HELLFIRE? Does that make sense? Insulting leads to judgment at a council, but calling someone a fool (which is also an insult) leads to HELLFIRE?

NO. The word there for "hell fire" is actually gehenna. This is actually a mistranslation. You can see how this mistranslation renders this verse to nonsense. The correct meaning there is "gehenna", which in this case simply means another type of judgment - a common judgment of the time of Jesus.

No one is going to "hell" for calling their brother a fool, yet that is what the faulty KJV translation implies (faulty in this one verse at least).

As always, it's not easy to translate an expression from one word to another. And what is even more difficult, is to translate real meaning of the word.
To us the expression "fool" is not a very strong word. But maybe this word had another meaning when the bible was translated into the English language the first time. 

Raka was an insult, but not to serious. Raka could in fact have been translated fool. This meaning something empty, something without any value.
But the word translate fool in English, is morós, from where we have the English word moron.
The meaning of this word is much stronger.
When using this word in Greek, you are saying that the person is morally worthless.
morós scorns him concerning his heart and character.













 

[lomarah]

Wasco I can tell you with 100% certainty that birth pangs HURT LIKE HELL! LOL. (The only time I've ever got sick from pain, ever. Not fun.) The relief comes when they are over and life is born. :)

[WhiteWings]

raka and fool
tmcdaniel.palmerseminary.edu/MBS_12_MATTHEW_5-22.pdf

[jabcat]

I'm not positive either, but by painful, I think more in terms of conviction and reaching a place of brokenness - being "dashed against the Stone", so as to be re-formed (Mt. 21:44).  Discipline, the breaking of our wills can be traumatic - especially if one has perhaps hardened their heart against the Lord for years and years.  I know personally, conviction is emotionally/spiritually painful, and I feel relief only after I've repented/confessed.   

Well, we'll know when we get there :).

[wasco55]

For sure God is going to turn those harden and bitter hearts to repentance.
But what is the best way of doing that?
Nothing can bring a man to a deeper repentance that a clear understanding of and a real encounter with God's love.
During the time of the law in the old covenant God sent all kinds of punishment over his people. But did that really produce a genuine repentance?
The story of Gods people in the Old Testament is a clear proof that it didn't.

The reason why we still want to insist on the idea of pain and torment is because we still carry some of that old spirit of revenge.
What we are thinking is that those terrible sinners are going to pay for their wickedness. After all, we believers have been "paying the price" of being the followers of Jesus. And here comes these sinners, after living their life in carnal lust and sinful lifestyle. And then they are not going to have a good old faction spanking from God.
-Common God, give that wicked sinner a god licking.
-Don't go soft on him now!
-Bring him don't to his knees!

Jesus once told us: For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a householder, which went out early in the morning to hire laborers into his vineyard.
We know the story, about laborers coming to work in his vineyard during the day. Some worked from morning to evening, other just for one hour.
But in the end they all received the same salary.
The once who had been working the whole day did not like that, and began to complain.
But the householder told them they had no reason to complain, because they received what they had been promised.
And then he asked them: Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is your eye evil, because I am good?   

[jabcat]

For sure God is going to turn those harden and bitter hearts to repentance.

The reason why we still want to insist on the idea of pain and torment is because we still carry some of that old spirit of revenge.

Just to be clear, I'm personally not talking about punishment and beating or "revenge".  I'm talking about conviction and the realization of displeasing Love, and how that causes emotional pain/distress in many.  I believe that's often involved in repentance.

We know the story, about laborers coming to work in his vineyard during the day. Some worked from morning to evening, other just for one hour.
But in the end they all received the same salary.

God can do whatever He chooses to do and however He chooses to do it.  But IMO, because they are forgiven too (paid the same salary/given the same inheritance) doesn't necessarily rule out basanizo.  That appears to me to have scriptural support, not just "that's how we want it".  But what that exactly entails, I believe we won't know until then.  I'm glad we agree it won't be mainstream's literal eternal hell-fire torture.     Blessings and peace.

[jabcat]

I like this explanation from J. Preston Eby;

"What could a lamb do to torture anyone? It has no capability for such a thing. And so it is with the LAMB OF GOD! The Lamb of God has no desire, no ability to inflict torture in any way - His desire is entirely redemptive - that men might have life and have it more abundantly!

Ah, the torment comes not from the Lamb. The torment lies within the bosoms of the tormented. The Scripture does not say that the Lamb torments them! If you think it does, you are mistaken. It states that THEY ARE TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb. What a thought! TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE. The Lamb is merely present. He does not torment. The condition is within themselves. Because they are wrong and sinful in nature, wicked in their hearts, selfish in their minds, and impure in their desires, they are CONDEMNED IN THEIR CONSCIENCES by the very PRESENCE of the pure, holy, sinless, selfless, sacrificing Lamb of God. Hell is at its fiercest when it sees heaven, and not till then.

When these realize the presence, or the character of the Lamb, they are tortured in their consciences, for in the Light of the Lamb they see themselves for the wretched little devils they are. The very PRESENCE of TRUTH torments the deceitful and the liar. The very PRESENCE of HOLINESS torments the immoral and corrupt. The very PRESENCE of LOVE is torment to the mean and hateful. The PRESENCE of Him who is the PRINCE OF PEACE is torture to those who live by violence and the sword. The very PRESENCE of the LIFE OF THE LAMB is the most awful torment and torture to all the opposing forces, both deceiver and deceived, until all the deceit and hostility has been taken out of them, and they come to KNOW THE LORD. When these have been exposed for a sufficient time to the PRESENCE of the Lamb, the Lamb will overcome them; His love and power will conquer their hearts; the rebellion and waywardness will be taken from them and they will at last ENJOY the Presence of the Lamb!"

[wasco55]

Amen to that jabcat 

[lomarah]

Loved that quote from Eby jab!! 

[WhiteWings]

God can do whatever He chooses to do and however He chooses to do it. 

He no longer can.
He limited Himself with laws and vows.

[anna274]

I'm not positive either, but by painful, I think more in terms of conviction and reaching a place of brokenness - being "dashed against the Stone", so as to be re-formed (Mt. 21:44).  Discipline, the breaking of our wills can be traumatic - especially if one has perhaps hardened their heart against the Lord for years and years.  I know personally, conviction is emotionally/spiritually painful, and I feel relief only after I've repented/confessed.   

Well, we'll know when we get there :).

Interesting how many times Ray Prinzing's Daily Overcoming supports current post on TM forum...
must be led by same Spirit!!!!

June 21 meditation "Measured to His Footprint"

begins with a Scripture:

"For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." Rom. 14:10-12

Prinzing's last paragraph

"Tradition gives the impression that the "judgment seat" is a fearful place where God, as an austere Judge, metes out the sentence, there is no mercy, no love, only awesome judgment.  But the truth of the matter is that day by day, we are now, progressively, facing the judgment seat of Christ.  We are experimentally being measured to His footprint, as the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, and purges and purifies that we might be conformed to His image.  Christ is our Example, "that ye should follow in His steps" 1 Pet 2:21.  And measured to His footprint, we truly have peace with God."

the whole devotional can be read at http://godfire.net/rayprinzing/june_21.htm

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well, now I must needs be still and know God (which means less time on the Internet)